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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
 Posted - December 30 2005 : 09:54:04 AM
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I thought that WCF might be the pictorial equivelant of Gray's CLC.How disappointing it has turned out to be.The photo's are outstanding however the scenarios the authors attach to these are just too ridiculous to be creditable.
They contend that all the positions occupied by Custer's troops were intentional,that the overall final situation was arrived at through military cohesion and command and control.One glance at photo 12.2A page 105 will illustrate my point.This is Keogh's final position.As can be seen it is overlooked by a ridge and outflanked by Horse Holders Ravine.If Keogh choose that position to make a stand he could not have choosen a weaker position.
It looks to me as if the 5 troops have turned North out of Deep Coulee.Keogh with his Battalion are in line of march following Custer who has passed over LSH and has turned down what is known as the SSL where he encounters hundreds of warriors and is forced back to LSH.Keogh can see nothing of the calamity that has befallen the head of the column .At the same time hundreds of warriors pour up Deep Coulee to attack the rear of the command.Keogh and Calhoun have only one option open to them and that is to stand and fight where they are.
One of the main weaknesses of WHF is that the Authors do not take into account that a number of actions are occuring simultaneously.They take us through the destruction of each troop as if all other actions had ceased.They contend that the troops went down in sequence.They seemed to have failed to grasp that a force of 1500 to 2000 can engage a force 10 times smaller in its entirity.
Although the book has it's faults Iwould still reccommend it for its photography
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - December 30 2005 : 11:54:25 AM
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| Hunkpapa, Martin and I believe Kanipe said that there were few or no warriors visible in the village. Indian testimony says that there were few defenders at the ford.Of course they eventually arrived in overwhelming numbers, but they were not there setting up an ambush at the start. AZ, Custer and Reno seperated about 3pm, shortly after 4pm, Custer's batallion or part of it was at MTF.They had traveled five or six miles. When did they find time for your one hour delay? |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 30 2005 : 12:25:33 PM
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Wild, for goodness sake proof your posts. What the Sam Hill is Gray's CLC or what is WHC? Yes, I reasoned it out, but it's annoying.
People forced to make a stand do the best they can with what's handy. And it isn't clear that he made a stand, since he was shot out of the saddle. It may have been just a slaughter as they ran north. And again, we need to prune the markers. What, after all, were Keogh's options? Apparently he thought he'd be facing west, and wasn't expecting an attack from the east as well.
It doesn't sound like you've read much of the book, since the authors deal with those issues and don't claim that which you say they do. I tend to agree with any variant of fiasco beyond MTC, but there's reason to believe some of the northern journey theories, although I don't. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - December 30 2005 : 1:58:52 PM
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This issue of MTC ford----It is possible that Custer's need of Benteen was confirmed when Custer got a view of the size of the village from the ford and decided much like Reno did that without Benteen his force was just too small.Remember he knew that Reno had made no impression on the village.
Even if Custer's force had crossed over the river and formed to charge just look at the strenght of his firepower ,200 rounds of carbine ammo and 1200 of pistol ammo all fired from horseback with probable little or no accuracy.That message to Benteen to come quick ment just that.Without him there was little or no chance of success.
I think much of the emphasis on the "Benteen" issue concentrates on a Custer rescue rather than on enabling the attack to be made. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 30 2005 : 2:15:46 PM
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| You couldn't see the village from the ford, there were trees. Unless there was a circle EAST of the river, as there may have been. He saw all he needed from Weir Point, and about all he needed previously from Sharpshooter. That's what makes his actions odd. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 30 2005 : 2:29:58 PM
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quote:
AZ, Custer and Reno seperated about 3pm, shortly after 4pm, Custer's batallion or part of it was at MTF.They had traveled five or six miles. When did they find time for your one hour delay?
Sat around is a poor word choice. My bad. It goes to the support of Reno in a timely manner. Custer was halted at Cedar Coulee at around 3:23PM (Gray) for about 11 minutes. Reno's retreat beginning around 3:53 PM and the Sou ix shortly thereafter left to go to Custer's location. My theory is that the Reno's end of the village(s) looked empty. The other end still had Indians that met Custer after MTC. Soon after the Sou ix that were engaged by Reno arrived to support. My impression from being there is that I could cover a lot of country in a short time on the Indian side of the river. The terrain ea that Custer traveled had a lot of up and down hill traveling which would slow the horses. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - December 30 2005 : 5:06:59 PM
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DC
The first paragraph [new section]page 353 of Gray makes my point.
We have to give Custer the benefit of the doubt here and take it that the non appearance of Benteen ruled out a full scale charge into the village even if the ford was undefended.
Just looking at an aerial photo here.If Custer does not approach the ford but cuts across MTC it takes him up the North Branch [page 268 Gray]and into the region of Luce Ridge and the Nye-Cartwright ridge where some believe the action began. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - December 31 2005 : 1:05:38 PM
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He's already sent Reno in, but without Benteen God forbid he attack as well? I'm not following you.
Reno made a decision not to press home his attack on the village because of the forces gathering in front of him and because of the size of the village and many on this board including myself have defended that action.Now the same criteria must be applied to Custer's decision making.
He saw all he needed from Weir Point, and about all he needed previously from Sharpshooter. That's what makes his actions odd.On the contrary it is these observations that make his actions explicable.At 3.34 he knows that Reno is in trouble,he knows that surprise has gone and he knows the size of the village.3.34 is decision time.He can retreat and join Benteen in his rescue of Reno,survive and admit defeat or pospone his attack and wait for Benteen.Custer being Custer decides to risk all on the arrival of Benteen.
MTC and beyond is a world of probability and we must allow Custer the benefit of that probability.Everything now hinges on the arrival of Benteen.Without Benteen's three troops there is no way an attack could succeed.For the next hour he takes his troops away from possible confrontation with the Indians.The mistake he makes is keeping them on the move rather than setting up a defence and unfortunately for him it is the Indians who arrive not Benteen.
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 31 2005 : 8:07:02 PM
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The mistake he makes is keeping them on the move rather than setting up a defense and unfortunately for him it is the Indians who arrive not Benteen.
Wild your statement is right on the target as far as I am concerned. It is certainly one of the most confusing decisions to me. Unless Custer thought the Indians were leaving, why didn't he close the gap between himself and Benteen by maintaining position or back tracking. I am not sure they could have won that day but getting the Regiment together certainly could have have increased survivability. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - January 01 2006 : 11:13:18 AM
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why didn't he close the gap between himself and Benteen by maintaining position or back tracking.
Well backing tracking would be a waste of time he was comitted to attack.MTC was now out as all surprise was gone,The only possibility of attack left to him was the North end of the village ---if only Benteen would hurry his arse along. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 01 2006 : 12:21:24 PM
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| From Crow's Nest on, he thought surprise was gone, which is why he abandoned the overnight stay. Only for a brief time at Sharpshooter or Weir did he think surprise might be achieved, according to Kanipe and Martin. That being the case, his failure to attack across MTC is even more puzzling: a straight run through a village devoid of warriors to either capture the civvies or attack in the rear those fighting Reno. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - January 01 2006 : 1:16:29 PM
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That being the case, his failure to attack across MTC is even more puzzling:He had the opportunity ,the inclination but perhaps not the means.At 3.34 Reno is in the timber and tactical surprise has gone.If you think Custer's decision not to attack is puzzling then Reno's action is just as puzzling and he had full tactical surprise.
At the Wa****a Custer attacked an Indian force a fraction the size of what he was now facing with 300 men and having full tactical surprise still got his fingers burnt.So having little more than 200 why should it be puzzling that he decided to await the arrival of Benteen?
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 01 2006 : 2:09:21 PM
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Don't think Reno's actions are puzzling at all, but the scouts were telling him as he crossed the river the Sioux weren't running but coming at him. So much for tactical surprise, a much more impressive term than mere surprise.
If Custer wasn't under attack, and the village was devoid of warriors, a decision to retreat east to high ground unviewable till Sharpshooter or Weir Point is reached by anyone following their trail is most puzzling. Then there's the issue of Custer 'waiting' under any circumstance. Does not compute.
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Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
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www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - January 01 2006 : 6:17:39 PM
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Don't think Reno's actions are puzzling at all,
Custer's predicment was not all that different from Reno's.Is the difference between understanding and puzzling 80 men? because that is the only difference between the scenarios.
but the scouts were telling him as he crossed the river the Sioux weren't running but coming at him.
They were surprised all right, it could have been the entire regiment arriving on their doorstep.A bit late to be grabbing your best pony then.
So much for tactical surprise, a much more impressive term than mere surprise.
You did mention that Custer thought they had been spotted as far back as the Crows Nest.If that was so then Custer had lost strategic surprise but not as yet tactical surprise.Remember how you always claim that the Indians were incapable of strategic action.
If Custer wasn't under attack, and the village was devoid of warriors, a decision to retreat east to high ground unviewable till Sharpshooter or Weir Point is reached by anyone following their trail is most puzzling.
You are puzzled by your own hypothetical scenario.But whether the village was devoid or not Custer had to confront a force that outnumbered him 10 to 1 sooner or later so awaiting another 120 men is not puzzeling.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 03 2006 : 12:51:32 PM
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So, with a number of you reading the book, have any of you flensed out the spurious markers, moved the 28 into Deep Ravine, subtracted out a reasonable number that belong elsewhere in Deep Coulee or Nye or Finley ridge, and moved a reasonable amount of the remainder to where vetted testimony and early photos say the bodies actually were? I think it looks very different and far more like a clueless fiasco than 'tactical' manuevers of a Custer on offense that thrill so many.
What do you make of Curtis' story that the Crows said some of Reno's guys joined Custer, and that Custer watched Reno's defeat and did nothing? Was that a miscount of Cooke, Keogh, and couriers returning? And what of Curtis asking TR about whether he should publish that, and the decision not to because it hurt Custer? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on January 03 2006 12:51:57 PM |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - January 03 2006 : 3:31:58 PM
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So, with a number of you reading the book, have any of you flensed out the spurious markers,
A far better exercise would be to place 1500 markers on the field anywhere on the field.
I think it looks very different and far more like a clueless fiasco than 'tactical' manuevers of a Custer on offense that thrill so many. It is all too easy to write it off as a clueless fiasco [as I have been guilty of]if you do not consider the "come quick message".
From 3.34 when the message was sent until 4.50 Custer covered 2 miles.That is slower than walking pace.Except for some dodgy evidence of light skirmishing there is nothing to indicate that Custer made any serious attempt to attack the village.His behavior resembles that of a commander awaiting reinforcements before bringing on a full blown battle.
Custer "held " the high ground and threatened the North end of the village.Photos in WCF show the battle field sloping down to the river.330 horsemen charging down upon the village from the area of LSH might have impressed the locals.Custer mistake was keeping the command at halfcock,neither on the offensive nor defensive.
A body of troops under good leadership changing --say from file into line could be hit suddently in mid manuever and the result could resemble a clueless fiasco.Custer was in the process of changing from line of march into an attack formation but one of his units had decided not to show up. |
Edited by - wILD I on January 03 2006 3:34:42 PM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 03 2006 : 6:28:57 PM
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Custer wasn't likely to wait, under any circumstances. There is evidence that can be used for more than light skirmishing, and Custer may have been under mounting attack from 1545 or thereabouts on, and pushed back and away. The very idea of Custer dismounting in sight of the village and waiting, and not expecting the Sioux in superior number to come for him, is bizarre.
It's two miles in a straight line, but down MTC, up the coulee of choice to Calhoun and over is another mile or more. Other than attract attention and bring them upon him, sending the odd company to fire at the village makes and made small sense. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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hunkpapa7
Lieutenant
United Kingdom
Status: offline |
Posted - January 03 2006 : 7:13:25 PM
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Got to agree with DC about Custer it wasn't in his make up,and a Leopard doesn't change it's spots.
"He who hesitates loses"comes to mind, and in the circumstances he thought he was in he had to act asap after having despatched Reno to attack.Must get on with reading this book. |
wev'e caught them napping boys
Aye Right ! |
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Smcf
Captain
Status: offline |
Posted - January 04 2006 : 04:45:32 AM
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| But he did hesitate and he did lose. He did stop on 2 or 3 occasions on his way north after the split with Reno and he did meander away from the village from Weir Point. Coupled with that, he did hold back excited troops and displayed a remarkably cavalier attitude, in his reported utterances, to any assumed danger below. |
Edited by - Smcf on January 04 2006 04:46:49 AM |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - January 04 2006 : 09:31:40 AM
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Custer wasn't likely to wait, under any circumstances.
Look at page 338 of Gray you will see that after Martin leaves Custer's pace drops dramatically.Boston and riders from Reno have no trouble overtaking him.
There is evidence that can be used for more than light skirmishing,This kinda conflicts with "a straight run through a village devoid of warriors to either capture the civvies or attack in the rear those fighting Reno."What is it to be were there warriors in the vicinity of MTC or not?I must also draw your attention to an entire thread in which you did an excellent job in dismantling any suggested evidence beyond MTC.
The very idea of Custer dismounting in sight of the village and waiting, and not expecting the Sioux in superior number to come for him, is bizarre.It was a matter of time.How much time had Custer got before he would have to attack or try and withdraw.Including Martin's travell time Benteen was in and around an hour away.In this scenario the decision to be made was attack now with the troops he's got or wait [how much time was the gamble]for Benteen and increase his strenght by 60%.And as hindsight has shown he did in fact have an hour to play with but probably fortunately Benteen stood him up.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 04 2006 : 11:40:07 AM
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Wild,
1. We don't know anything beyond MTC. A walking pace isn't waiting or dawdling but often dependent on horse condition. We don't, in fact, know Boston got to Custer at all. In WCF, you'll note the mention of the vagueries of where Reed and Boston were found, except that it was not where the stones are, and whether Reed was ever ID'd at all. I have neither proof nor reason to doubt that efforts would have been made to make sure the three Custers were found together. What riders from Reno after Martin left him?
2. Those are not mutual exclusives, Wild. I only pointed out that MTCF, nowhered described as well defended and the easiest crossing on the river, is the fastest way to do ANY of the possible tasks Custer thought needed doing. He just didn't, and it's that puzzler than flummoxes the philes.
3. He had to attack immediately or withdraw. Cavalry cannot stop in contact with the enemy. There was no reason to think the Sioux wouldn't attack him in sight of their women and children and try to get their mounts. I don't for a second believe Custer would take to the east willingly. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - January 04 2006 : 1:07:44 PM
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We don't know anything beyond MTC.
On the contrary we know the strenght of the opposing forces or should I say that one greatly outnumbered the other.We know the Terrain.We know the final position of the troops.[it don't matter if e troop was in a pit or scattered along the SSL].And on this board we accept Grays time line.If you don't accept his time line then you can't even express the opinion that Custer's behavior was puzzling.
A walking pace isn't waiting or dawdling but often dependent on horse condition.Martin and Kanipe had no problem covering the distance back to enteen.Custer's slow pace after Cedar Coulee can be taken as intentional.
What riders from Reno after Martin left him?
I never gave a time for riders leaving Reno.
a straight run through a village devoid of warriors AND
There is evidence that can be used for more than light skirmishing,
Those are not mutual exclusives,
Well ya know DC I think they are.
I only pointed out that MTCF, nowhered described as well defended and the easiest crossing on the river, is the fastest way to do ANY of the possible tasks Custer thought needed doing. He just didn't, and it's that puzzler than flummoxes the philes.
Across MTC ford lay a village of 7000 inhabitants most of whom were capable of defending themselves.I'm more inclined to think of Custer looking into a hornets nest.You have posted Custer wasn't likely to wait, under any circumstances.How many troops do you think would have been required to successfully charge that village.My guess is that the entire regiment of 600 men with surprise on their side might just do it.No one here would suggest that 200 men had a snowballs chance in hell of going into that village and coming out alive.Even galloping idiots like Custer have their limits and my guess is that it was 320 men .Thus he waited. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 04 2006 : 3:17:59 PM
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1. We know roughly what forces were available, but not whether they were used or how they were used. We do know the terrain. We have a rough idea where the troopers ended up, but it matters very much if they were in the Ravine (they couldn't shoot out of it, and they were hiding or running away) vs. being on a skirmish line above (on the offensive and able to be described by that nifty military terminology). I accept Gray's time line with the caveat he himself only claims possibility for Custer beyond MTC, and that's fine. Of course I can claim the actions of Custer's unit is puzzling.
2. But this doesn't buttress you're contention he was "waiting." And this ignores Martin's contention Custer was under attack when he left, and his horse had much trouble making it, being unable to reach the faster gaits. Bullet, exhaustion, who knows? Of course it was intentional.
3.Well, you included them in a sentence with Boston in a paragraph with a lead sentence positioning a time after Martin left Custer (You said "Look at page 338 of Gray you will see that after Martin leaves Custer's pace drops dramatically.Boston and riders from Reno have no trouble overtaking him.") Assuming the second sentence is related to the first, you're implying riders from Reno reached Custer after Martin left. Gray says he walked to keep dust down to MTC, stopped to adjust saddles for the charge, and did whatever they did.
4. If the second sentence was restricted to MTC, maybe. But, it wasn't.
5. MTC was, we're told, the northern lip of the village, and an attack would have had the advantage of some surprise whatever its goal. You're pulling 7k out of the air, we have no real idea how many there were, but we're now told most were fighting Reno, and the women and children were northwest. Pretty empty shell. I don't think Custer would wait in plain view, but pile on and assume Benteen on arrival would do the same. But of course, I don't think he was on the offensive for long across MTC, and it was a defensive fight uphill.
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Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - January 04 2006 : 4:57:46 PM
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We know roughly what forces were available, but not whether they were used or how they were used. AND
but we're now told most were fighting Reno,
It is difficult to attribute credibility to your other points when you make such glaring contradictions.
Of course I can claim the actions of Custer's unit is puzzling.Whatever the fighting strenght was in the village it routed Reno's 3 troops and [with hindsight]Custer's 5 troops and pinned down Benteen's 7 troops and not forgetting the check inflicted on Cook's force of 1300.So whatever force was down in the valley it must have been awesome.And you contend that it is puzzling that Custer did not attack it with 210 men?
I'll give you the riders from Reno on a technicality.
But this doesn't buttress you're contention he was "waiting." What it does show was that Custer was not exactly rushing to his doom.And it fits with his apparent intention to have Benteen join him.What you have to answer is was his message to Benteen superfluous.
Gray says he walked to keep dust down to MTC,That of course is a joke with him up on the bluffs waving and hollering his head off.Who did not see him?
Pretty empty shell.
It was not the empty shell he was after but those innumerable rogues who had done such terrible things to Cooke and Reno.The bottom line is he had to confront a force infinitely stronger than his own.What's puzzling in waiting for reinforcements? |
Edited by - wILD I on January 04 2006 4:59:10 PM |
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Marker Relevance to Battle Scenarios
