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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
 Posted - April 15 2005 : 4:29:17 PM
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| I think we have a Frank Spencer on the Board.Let's check with Him |
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Frank Spencer
Private
Status: offline |
Posted - April 16 2005 : 10:23:54 AM
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Sorry for being away so for so long - had a minor problem with a plumbing project.
On this one point I, sadly, have to agree with Warlord. It is written in the great Spencer family history book, that it was indeed my great great granddaddy Spencer, who, pardon the pun, against all odds stood his ground and repelled Picketts charge. As our family history shows, my granddaddy was working on fixing the lavatory at the time Pickett mounted his charge. Just as Granddaddy Spencer had got a handle on the job, a stray confederate bullet glanced his ear, causing Granddaddy Spencer to accidentally fire off a round into the lavatory. The huge build up off gas in the lavatory was ignited by Granddaddy Spencer's gunshot resulting in a huge explosion - which sent piles of sh*t flying into the air and down upon the advancing confederates. Overwhelmed by the massive amounts of sh*t, the gray coats turned heel and ran away.
So you see, Warlord is correct in his analysis - it was indeed the great Spencer rifle which stopped Picketts Charge.
Got to run - Betty's calling!! |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 19 2005 : 09:37:55 AM
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"BJ: Take a few minutes off the lousy taxes to answer you only briefly. Once again quoting from Custer and His Wolverines, P.153. "Triumph it certainly was, Stuarts legions had been battered but not broken - overwhelmed on some quarters of the field but not undone. Tommorow they would return to the fight with renewed vigor. Nevertheless, this day they had been decisevely repulsed, largely as a result of two of the most dramatic saber charges of this or any other war. Stuart would not reach the Union rear in time to salvage the doomed attack against Meade's center that would become known as Pickett's Charge. And for that outcome, Custer's Wolverines could claim a heroic share of the credit." Which was set up by the Spencer rifle!"
Paul, coincidentally, I happen to have a Longacre book I just finished, Gentleman and Soldier, a biography of Wade Hampton. Unfortunately, in this book (p. 154) he attributes the Confederate cavalry's defeat largely upon the fact that the Union had enough troops in front to blunt Stuart's charge and Gregg's cavalry caught them repeatedly in flank.
On p. 155, here is Longacre's assessment: "How much the cavalry could have accomplished, had it broken through the Yankee lines, is a matter of conjecture. It is entirely possible that, even with well-timed help from Stuart, Pickett's Charge would have failed as signally as it did without his support. Forced to cross a mile of open ground exposed to cannon fire and musketry, most of the units involved in the attack were shot to pieces well short of their objective, the center of Meade's line on Cemetery Ridge."
Relative to the above, is this from p. 151, "Stuart would never explain his reasons for taking up that position [Cress's Ridge, some three or more miles from Gettysburg]. Even so, contemporary observers and latter-day historians would speculate that Lee had ordered him to assault the Union right rear at the same time as an offensive destined to be remembered as Pickett's Charge struck the front of Meade's line below Gettysburg."
So, to say unequivocably as you have that the carbine won the battle of Gettysburg and defeated Pickett's Charge is first, only speculation and secondly, incorrect. If a significant number of Union cavalry had been in the center of Meade's line fighting dismounted, then you would something to hang your statement from, but since there were not cavalry there in numbers, you are utterly wrong.
Best of wishes,
Billy |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 19 2005 : 11:47:58 AM
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Also, let's not forget Battlefield Detectives, wherein - by math and other science - they figured out that the Union cannon and musket fire would have killed far more men than Lee actually lost during Pickett's charge. They attribute this to significant numbers of heroic rebels cowering in the depressed Emmitsville Road before even getting to the fencing. Which is to say, not actually making the charge at all.
I love science; so handy. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - April 19 2005 : 2:17:57 PM
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Also, let's not forget Battlefield Detectives, wherein - by math and other science - they figured out that the Union cannon and musket fire would have killed far more men than Lee actually lost during Pickett's charge.
I imagine that's a tongue in cheek post DC because it is rubbish.Why were there survivors then?Surely those who did make the charge would have faced the full potential of the Union's firepower.
The cavalry action at Gettysburg was an irrelevant side show.If Custer scored such a resounding victory why was there no pursuit of Lee?Why was he allowed to withdraw in good order and fight on for another two years.
As regards the Spencer once they went on general issue the Confederates would have had them before some Union units. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 19 2005 : 2:36:24 PM
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Lee wasn't pursued because Meade, a Pennsylvanian, apparently was happy to have pushed him out of his home state. He wrote a report talking about throwing the enemy from our land and Lincoln went apoplectic. It was all our land, and the provincialism of the people beneath him was annoying. The cavalry battle wasn't a sideshow, but Stuart's guys were exhausted men and horses from his pointless circumnavigation and late arrival. Then the draft riots and stuff. There [i[were[/i] cavalry units that picked at Lee all the way down, but nothing major.
It is odd, in retrospect, but who knows what they thought they knew then. The Union had this whole other huge Army at Washington and in more in Virginia that might have trapped Lee. That would have been a far more meaningful Last Stand then Custer's. Even if Lee had won at Gettysburg, not much different might have happened. He didn't have enough to take on whole new units of Union soldiers plus Meade's again. Really, even if he captured a major city he couldn't have held it, supplied it, reinforced it, and then he was trapped there. Other than capture of the AOP or Washington and Lincoln, hard to see how Lee wouldn't have had to retreat anyway. Just no support set up worthy of the name, one of the reasons for him going north in the first place. The South was doomed early on. Everything north of Richmond was based on plunder.
Still, a clear cut victory. It wasn't as important as Vicksburg, in objective consideration, but impressive.
Regarding the Battlefield Detectives, it's reshown periodically. Watch for it. Pretty humiliating. Oh, and buttressed by contemporary accounts. They figured up the numbers supposedly in the charge, figured out firing rates of musket and cannister, hard to miss, and the casualties weren't anywhere near what they should have been. From letters home by reb soldiers, it was pretty clear that impressive numbers stayed and didn't charge, and just made it to the Emmittville Road (sp?) and took cover.
If, as is laughingly contested, they all had Spencers, than the casualties are WAY low. But of course, they didn't. Either way.....
I say Battlefield Detectives, but it might have been Discovery or PBS. It's been on a couple of times. This was talked about previously on this forum, though. And it may be the Chambersville Road, I get confused. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on April 19 2005 3:01:56 PM |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 19 2005 : 2:55:12 PM
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The Gettysburg battle did bring out the fact that many surrounding Lincoln just didn't get it. Lincoln may have been apoplectic over Meade's hesitance to pursue, but he went ballistic when his own advisors lauded that "we've pushed the invaders back into their own country," or something to that effect. Lincoln never wavered from his position that it was ONE union.
As for pursuit by Meade, he was pretty well bloodied. It's up to debate whether his army, after three days of such brutal fighting, was in any shape to launch a chase.
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Bob Bostwick |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 19 2005 : 4:35:35 PM
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quote:
Posted - April 10 2005 : 2:21:59 PM Show Profile Reply with Quote
As a matter of plain practical combat, the Spencer rifle stopped Pickett's charge and in the long run actually turned the war for the Union.
Paul, the above are your comments re: Spencer carbine & Pickett's Charge. If you later changed it on another message to state that the carbine had an impact, IMHO insignicant, on the battle of Gettysburg, I must of missed it.
Change of subject. Does anyone know anything about the 2nd Cavalry? The reason I am asking is that while going through the regimental returns of, I believe (my bag is upstairs), July 1867, I ran into an incident which happened on the North Platte near Red Buttes (Ft. Caspar vicinity) where 4 enlisted men drowned on the same day. This occurred the same month that Kidder and his men were listed as KIA. A bad month for the 2d Cavalry it was. They also had one other man KIA and one more drowned on another day!
Gotta go, started work at 4 and I am heading over to Leavenworth for the night.
Bye,
Billy
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - April 20 2005 : 04:07:11 AM
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If any smallarms weapon had a significant influence on the outcome of the battle it was the Sharpes carbine and that in the hands of Bufords troops who fought a brillant classic dragoon delaying action which deprived Lee of Cemetery Ridge.
From letters home by reb soldiers, it was pretty clear that impressive numbers stayed and didn't charge, and just made it to the Emmittville Road (sp?) and took cover.
DC The Emmitsburg road was in the heart of the Union position.It was enfiladed by 126th NY and McCrea's battery.So yes many of the Confederates only made it to the Emmetsburg road and stopped but not for the reasons you imply.
And it may be the Chambersville Road, I get confused.
Very sloppy posting that little gem ranks along side the "Spencer rifle".Come on lads its your history read a bit.
The South was doomed early on
We discussed this at lenght however.By instituting an armed insurrection the South placed a price on the preservation of the Union.It was all a question of whether the Union would pay that price especially as it was paid in painful installments such as First Manassas,Shilo,Antietam,Fredericksburg,Chancellorsville,Cold Harbor etc.
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 21 2005 : 02:36:14 AM
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Paul, Dave, Prolar, I just thought of this but since you guys are gun buffs I figured you could answer the question.
What was the range of the Spencer carbine compared to the Sharp's carbine and, also, the Springfield carbine (to throw a "modern" touch into it.)
Seriously, if troops at Cemetery Ridge had been armed with Spencers, in my opinion, they would not have been able to do significant long-range damage to Pickett's Charge. Only cannon and infantry rifles would have had the range to inflict damage long range
Best of wishes,
Billy |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 21 2005 : 03:35:58 AM
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"Since it is late, thats the best I can do for the moment!"
Sheesh, since I knew nothing about any of them, I consider that good information.
Hmmm, considering what you said about the Spencer's powder charge, I am beginning to understand why they squared the bullet-points off post Civil War (and also, why there were so many accidental deaths from gunshot wounds in that era's cavalry-not to say the infantry didn't have a few mind you!
Billy |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - April 21 2005 : 03:52:23 AM
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wILDI: Please post your facts and analysis concluding the Sharps carbine(sic) had at Cemetery Ridge. Define your use of Dragoon at this action.
Sir yes Sir.
Buford in advance of the Union Army reached Gettysburg and saw the lead elements of Lee's forces advancing on the town.He realised that the two armies would collide in and around the town and whoever held Cemetery Ridge would have the advantage.However instead of trying to defend Cemetery ridge with his small force of two under strenght brigades he made the very astute decision to push forward about a mile towards the advancing Confederates and try and hold them at Willoughby Run.
The Confederates were aware of Buford presence and deployed a brigade or two to as they thought brush him aside.However fighting on foot as dragoons and armed with the rapid firing Sharps Buford halted this initial attack and forced the Confederate general Heth to deploy more units.Bufort slowly withdrew buying time to allow Union forces under Reynolds to arrive in support.
Union forces were eventually driven back out of Gettysburg but by that time the main Union forces had arrived and taken position on Cemetery ridge from which they were never dislodged and from which they repelled Picketts charge.
As regards your hero Custer and his battle with Stuart casualties in this action amounted to 180 confederates and 240 Union.A battle of little or no significance.
I probably cannot match some here such as DC on knowledge regarding the civil war.
Well well.Peace in our time.
If DC thinks the Emmetsburg Road was a haven for skulkers then he knows as much about the Civil war as you do about the Spencer carbine.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - April 21 2005 : 11:59:10 AM
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For God's sake, Wild, I couldn't then recall the name of the road Pickett's guys crossed,
For God's sake DC credit me with some intelligence.You could have called it the Yellow Brick road for all I care.But you had no idea where it was in relation to the two armies and suggested it became a refuge for skulkers.For God's sake the Union had artillery batteries firing volleys down it.Just to get to this road was heroic. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 21 2005 : 1:21:52 PM
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| No, Wild, this isn't my argument. This was the point and substance of this history program which claimed just that, bolstered by letters from rebel soldiers. Significant numbers hid in the road. It'll be on again (no doubt around early July) and I'll get all the info from it. Science. Always impressive. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - April 22 2005 : 07:17:50 AM
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| Wild I says that the cavalry battle behind Union lines at Gettsburg was insignificant. Since Stuart was stopped, maybe it was. However, there are those,including Bruce Catton, who think that if Stuart had broken through in the rear, during Pickett's charge, it could have been very significant. Since Custer and his two regiments with Spencers played an important part in stopping Stuart, I agree with Warlord that that the Spencer was significant. I just don't think it was as important as he does. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - April 22 2005 : 08:57:52 AM
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wILDI: I am getting careless in my old age. Thank you for the more in-depth report on the troops Buford had command of and their Sharps carbines. This supports my argument of a more advanced weapon being used in quantity at an opportune moment.
Warlord
I'm delighted to have been of service to you in your attempt to show the importance of rapid firing weapons.It just a matter of getting the detail correct.Bufort and the Sharps are historically accurate,Custer and the Spencer are historically inaccurate.
My reports and analysis on the Spencer in the civil war stand.You have posted no sources to support your contention that the Spencer stopped Picketts charge.
Just in relation to the Emmitsburg road.DC's post seems to indicate that at least one of the reasons for Pickett's failure was that a significant number of confederates skulked along the road and did not make the charge. It might be of interest to compare this action with the one at Fredericksburg.Pickett's troops advanced 4 times the distance the federals did at Maryes heights and did reach and break through their objective.And just for a fleeting moment as the more romantic among us would like to think,The gallant Amistead and the lads of the 9th,14th,38th,53rd,57th Virginia were indeed "going home"
Since Custer and his two regiments with Spencers played an important part in stopping Stuart, I agree with Warlord that that the Spencer was significant. I just don't think it was as important
as he does.
Prolar
Stuart's orders were to shield Ewells left,observe the enemies rear and strike if the opportunity arose.There is nothing there about attempting a break through.So if no break through was intended you cannot credit Custer and his Spencers with stopping one.Secondly the Spencer was not the weapon of the day it was the Saber.The image is always of Custer with his saber in hand shouting "come on you Wolverines." |
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americanmike
Recruit
United Kingdom
Status: offline |
Posted - April 22 2005 : 10:39:56 AM
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Hi everyone,
I’m writing a masters dissertation in landscape archaeology – trying to model possible / likely bullet trajectories at Little Bighorn on the basis of artefact distributions. I’m wondering whether some of you might be able to help me out with some information.
At the moment I’m testing the hypothesis that Indians at Greasy Grass Ridge fired at targets on Calhoun Ridge, some of their bullets overshooting and impacting on the southern slope of Calhoun Hill. I’m using the exterior ballistics segment of RSI Shooting Lab to calculate bullet elevation. As most of you probably know, two of the most significant parameters for this calculation are the ballistic coefficient (BC) and muzzle velocity (MV) of the bullet. I’ve been looking around on the Internet for BC and MV values for the types of loads that may have been used at LBH, but am coming up a bit short, especially on BCs.
The loads/firearms I’m looking at are:
.44-25-216 (Henry Model 1860 rifle)
.44-28-200 (Winchester Model 1866 rifle)
.44-28-200 (Winchester Model 1873 carbine)
.44-40-200 (Winchester Model 1873 rifle)
.45-55-405 (Springfield Model 1873 carbine)
.45-30-255 (Colt Model ‘P’ 1873 SAA revolver)
.50-70-450 (various Sharps and Springfield rifles)
.50-55-430 (Sharps 1867-69 Conversion carbine)
.50-50-400 (Springfield Model 1870 carbine)
.50-35-375 (Spencer ’56-52’ Model 1865 rifle)
.50-35-375 (Spencer ’56-50’ Model carbine)
.50-35-380 (Spencer ’56-56’ Model 1863 rifle)
I can see from Fox’s books that there’s quite a bit of variation in bullet forms, and that BC and MV values can be difficult to pin down. However, any information that anyone can give me on the above loads would be *greatly* appreciated. Does anyone know where else I might look for this info? (someone in N-SSA perhaps?)
I have the various photos in Fox’s book and could try to calculate BC from the bullets’ dimensions. However, I understand that this is not the preferred method!
Thanks in advance,
Mike
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 22 2005 : 12:19:16 PM
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Americanmike, do you have access to the United States Executive Papers series on microfiche? If so, go to the War Department files, fiche number W3411-4.5.115. That is Ordnance Notes No. 115, dated October 1, 1879. It deals with arms captured from Indians and examined by the Ordnance Dept. It gives information relative to arms weight, barrel length, weight of the powder charge and ball weight. Another section goes into penetration of white pine at 200 and 300 yards. That same section goes into accuracy for ranges of 300, 500, 600, 800 and 1,000 yards with deviation figures.
For instance, on Winchester Mod. 1866 tested, they purchased the ammo from Winchester directly. They give the powder weight and ball weight for the arms tested as this:
Springfield Rifle 70 grains 405g
Sharp's rifle 77 grains 470g
Springfield carbine 55 grains 405g
Winchester rep. rifle 26 grains 202g
Another page (169) gives detail on other weapons captured/turned in while loaded and the ammunition removed from them.
Weapon Name/Type Cart./Caliber/Powder weight/Ball weight
Henry & Winchester Mod. 1866 rim fire cart. .44 28 202
Henry & Winchester Mod. 1866 rim fire cart. .44 26 202
Henry & Winchester Mod. 1866 rim fire cart. .44 23 202
Why the above powder charges vary, I will let Paul, Dave and Prolar figure out.
Spencer carbine Mod. 1865 rim fire cart. .50 48.6 351
Sharp's carbine centerfire .52 70 450
Sharp's carbine, paper case, center fire cart. .54 37 456
(above sounds like a mistype or bad reloading job!)
Joselyn carbine rim fire cart. .54 45 360
F. Wesson carbine rim fire cart. .40 28 220
Ballard center fire cart. .44 30 220
Springfield rifle U.S. center fire cart. .50 70 450
Springfield rifle U.S. center fire cart. .45 70 405
Sprinfield carbine U.S. center fire cart. .45 55 405
Winchester repeating rifle Mod. 1873 center fire cart. .45 40 200
Good luck,
Billy
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 22 2005 : 12:29:17 PM
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I haven't the foggiest idea, myself.
I do have some questions for you, since your posting is illustrative of a trend I am highly suspicious about. Rest assured, more agree with your interests than mine, so I wallow alone. Still....
1. If you obtain this information, what is gained? Can't it reasonably be assumed that some Indians overshot (since apparently most people do) if they were on GGR? How can you ever prove at this point that bullets found on CH came from a certain direction?
2. How are you distinguishing artifacts of the battle from artifacts placed after, when Indians shot up the bodies? Or much later, when Indians passing the field were confronted with barely covered bodies of cavalrymen? What was standard operating procedure for plains Indians where given opportunity to desecrate the bodies of enemies?
3. If surety cannot be obtained to answer those questions (and they cannot), what is the point? A detailed ballistic analysis of possible fire at a possible time by arguable shooters that in no way excludes other possibiities for the existence of the artifacts. It won't be proof of anything. It doesn't even bolster the theories extant.
What I continually fear is the supplication on bended knee people give to 'science' without applying their own common sense as to its relevance, and your charts and mountain of detail will be offered as "evidence" that Indians did fire from GGR at Calhoun Ridge during the battle.
No, no, no. Argh. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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dave
Captain
Australia
Status: offline |
Posted - April 22 2005 : 12:29:26 PM
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Henry (.44 flat)
mv=1125 fps
me=568 ft lbs
bc=0.153
Winchester .44-40
mv=1310 fps
me=760 foot lbs
Govt .45-70-405
mv=1350 fps
bc=0.214
Govt .50-70-450
mv=1260 fps
me=1488 ft. lbs.
Colt .45
mv=850 fps
bc=0.138 |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - April 22 2005 : 12:52:07 PM
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| Did anyone mention that they all went BANG |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - April 22 2005 : 1:23:26 PM
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As a matter of plain practical combat, the Spencer rifle stopped Pickett's charge
Warlord
The above means just what it says.It does not mean that because the Spencer was carried [not used, hardly]by a brigade or two in an insignificant skirmish 3 miles from the main action it stopped Pickett.In fact Shelby Foote suggests that for all the influence this action had on the outcome it would have been better for both cavalry forces to have remained within their respective lines.
Bufort and the Sharps makes your point.Stick with what is accurate.
Could the Spencer have made a difference at LBH? You are damn right it could have! Would it have saved him? An unknown that is tantalizingly speculated about.
That's what your friend DC would call an oxymoran. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - April 22 2005 : 5:15:57 PM
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The key words are "plain practical combat"
No they are not.The key words are the Spencer rifle stopped Pickett's charge
and was addressing the overall situation that lead up to the Confederate defeat.
No it was not.It addressed one action in particular Picketts charge.
I would hardly call stopping the Confederate Cavalry from rolling up the Union rear a insignificant battle!
Well if the truth be known and Custer never got any credit for this.He stopped Stuart from riding clean through the federals all the way to Washington and making off with Abe himself. |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - April 22 2005 : 8:23:45 PM
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| Wild I:You are welcome to your opinion. There are a lot of pretty good historians who think that Stuart behind Union lines with 5000 or so troopers could have caused a lot of disruption if he had not been stopped. |
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Springfield Cartridge ID
