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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
 Posted - February 12 2005 : 7:57:54 PM
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First, nothing in my thread implies that Red-Horse made any reference to Harrington. He could not have possible known Harrington to identify him as such. He simply refers to a soldier who did "something" to convince him that the soldier's actions were noteworthy. As a respected warrior, he certainly would have the capability to recognize heroic actions in another.
After the battle, French himself attempted to take credit for this honor. He describes his "covering" actions during Reno's retreat to the bluffs. Harrington becomes a candidate only because he was the senior officer with company "C" which may have attempted to free Calhoun's right flank from Indian encroachment. According to a theory by Fox, this contingency was fired upon by warriors situated at Greasy Grass Ridge. As a result, it was theorized that the unit suffered fatalities and broke for cover towards and up Calhoun Ridge. Harrington, if he were there, may have had the presence of mind to attempt to cover the retreat. I'm going to check through my records and find out who it was (it may have been Red-Horse) who stated that this soldier's body was last seen in the area of the south, skirmish line. |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - February 13 2005 : 11:56:46 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
First, nothing in my thread implies that Red-Horse made any reference to Harrington.
"Another candidate is Lt. Harrington whose body was never recovered."
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Harrington becomes a candidate only because he was the senior officer with company "C" which may have attempted to free Calhoun's right flank from Indian encroachment.
Was Red Horse talking about Calhoun Ridge? If he was, do we know that Harrington was ever even on CR? To even think "Harrington" based on Red Horse's vague account is taking a hell of a leap. You might as well suggest Weston Harrington.
R. Larsen |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - February 13 2005 : 4:05:08 PM
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| I'm not certain which location Red-Horse was referring to. Not knowing the location has been the biggest obstacle towards a satisfactory conclusion. According to Fox, "C" troop was deployed by Keough to flush out Indians encroaching in the area of Calhoun Coulee situated to the right flank of the Calhoun Skirmish line. I believe Harrington was the commanding officer of "C" in the absence of Tom Custer. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 14 2005 : 10:49:53 AM
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| You mean "according to an utter guess by Dr. Fox, in order to build a scenario in which found battlefield items can be interpreted as somehow revealing about the battle without any actual ability to do so...." |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - February 14 2005 : 4:18:49 PM
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| Since no one is capable of knowing what happened, I'll accept a "guess" based on research. Actually, we do not have much more than that to work with. |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - February 14 2005 : 11:08:22 PM
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Fox's argument for the C Company "charge" is too dependent on Marquis's writings for my comfort. Had such a cataclismic event really occurred (Fox practically blames the whole battle on it) I'd expect a lot more evidence for it than is actually there.
R. Larsen |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 17 2005 : 11:49:30 AM
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I remain curious, given that the Lell skull to photo theory was blown out of the water, whether the Harrington fanatics have completed that essential DNA testing of their skull? Say, to the guy who wrote the introduction for the book, named Harrington. If not, why not? It would be very interesting if it was a match, although it still doesn't prove he was a hero or running away.
That History Channel forum is Custerphile heaven: trivia and hypotheses and detail shielding avoidance without answering the important question, or even asking it. Would an officer like Custer think waiting for help while under attack, taking casualties to horse and men, was a good idea, given the only reason to be there would be a later offensive? At what point would he have to conclude no further offensive was possible? I'd think pretty early on.
These stories referenced there from the Indians (no translators names are mentioned) with Indians conclusively supposed to have mentioned certain landmarks on a field years back in memory strikes me as weak footing for theory. Further, where convenient or necessary, it's concluded that translators or memory "must have" interfered with this crucial aspect or that.
And again, the Custerphile lust to exonnerate him for this failure except in the most general, and therefore heroic terms, is still powerful. It is truly odd. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - February 17 2005 : 8:45:57 PM
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| I can not understand why everytime a possible theory regarding conceptual thought about what "may" have occurred must be labeled, by a miniscule minority, as "fanatics" "Custerphile heaven" and now, "Custerphile lust." By God, I find this jargon to be "truly odd!" |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 18 2005 : 06:33:35 AM
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| Jefferson was an admitted Francophile, Adams an Anglophile, and I believe both used the terms about themselves, each other, and others. It's handy, not derogatory. Like Wild with "aborigine", you are basing all this on an assumption the word is negative about the person to whom it's applied. It is not, is merely a word to describe those who favor Custer as opposed to those - the Custerphobes - who do not. There is no more connotation applied to the word than you bring to it yourself. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 18 2005 : 2:17:06 PM
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| I'm counting.....well, I stopped counting how many pages pop up - mostly Civil War Journal - that use the term Custerphile. Just go to Google and type it in. Some of the entries are our's, the vast majority are not. I made nothing up. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 19 2005 : 05:16:02 AM
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It seems to me if there is anyone with some real expertise with horses, the use of the Cavalry Saber, actual shooting with the Springfield Trapdoor, retired Army officers of tactical experience, re-enactors of this era, military equipment of 1876, someone of direct knowledge of geograpy of the area we would all benifit. I would like to see scenarios laid out as to the overall tactics attempted by Custer after MTC, alternate scenarios shown to us to fairly evaluate without someone yelling idiot or liar. Seriously evaluated questions such as how many more casualties would the indians have suffered had the Sabers been present? What impact would the Gatling Guns have made had they been used. How should they have been used. A really logical argument for what was going through Custers mind after MTC? Counter argument?
Paul, I like the idea. You have anyone in mind?
Billy |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 19 2005 : 11:19:02 AM
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Right. The first place to go is a re-enactor. And of course getting reliable information on impossibilities - like what Custer might have been thinking - is a truly meaningful innovation. But the thrill of going into excruciating detail on irrelevancies can't be denied, I guess. Would soldiers untrained in sabers make a worse showing than soldiers insufficiently trained in firearms? Surely, only experts can answer these mighty questions so essentially related to....well, something or other. Both modern trivia experts trying to acquire respect by appending themselves to the actions of the long dead, and past experts who, having seen virtually nothing outside their own states, are qualified to annouce the Sioux are the world's best horsemen. Better than they themselves were, surely enough.
Either way, this thread is about Sturgis and Harrington and the questions have been asked why DNA testing wasn't done on Harrington's skull before a book was offered that would modestly rise or utterly fall on that one issue. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - February 19 2005 : 3:03:45 PM
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| Dark Cloud: I have no knowledge of DNA testing. However, it has been explained elsewhere, maybe another forum, that the required DNA is only passed down through females. Harrington's mother had no female decendants, neither did her sisters. So there is no DNA for comparison. |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - February 19 2005 : 4:20:16 PM
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Originally posted by prolar
Dark Cloud: I have no knowledge of DNA testing. However, it has been explained elsewhere, maybe another forum, that the required DNA is only passed down through females. Harrington's mother had no female decendants, neither did her sisters. So there is no DNA for comparison.
Although there's no justification for it, the case for the skull being Harrington's being so weak, they could try to arrange to exhume the bodies of Harrington's dead family members. I feel sure they'd have no problem, since as similar efforts to ID Titanic victims in Halifax showed, closest living relatives are more than willing to grant approval to researchers wishing to dig up the corpse of their great-great-aunt, or whomever (it's almost never somebody they actually knew) in order to help write their ancestor into a few additional pages of history. Willing? More like thrilled and excited. I've seen documentaries in which they could barely contain their glee. It's unlikely Harrington's surviving brood (or his siblings', or cousins') will be any different.
R. Larsen |
Edited by - Anonymous Poster8169 on February 19 2005 4:27:27 PM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 19 2005 : 5:44:52 PM
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If anything, I know less than you about DNA, but for whatever reason I'd been under the impression that testing lessened the probablily that individuals were not related rather than proved they were. Before female mitochondrial specificity, wouldn't there be more general markers that might not prove relationship but could certainly prove no relationship? They speak of a genetic marker for American Indians, for example (and also contentious), so I expect there are things that might eliminate the skull from the Harrington possibility column, although maybe not specific enough.
I expect that is what is meant by saying, regarding the "Lell" skull, that DNA does not support the contention they are the same, rather than "it is not the skull."
Still... It's gotta be closer than holding up a thumb to skull and photo. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - February 19 2005 : 9:05:24 PM
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"Skelnar has some redeeming qualities"
What a refreshing and astute comment. I say this because past posts seemed to have taken great delight in relegating his work to a sphere of fantasy and mirth. I was struck by his theory that the "Lone Tepee" situation may have convinced Custer that he had been detected and, that the Indians were fleeing, as he suspected and feared. The realization that his worst fears may have been coming true would certainly have aroused his trepidation of failure and hasten his actions to prevent such a conclusion from coming true.
The tepee stood upon a site that was,obviously, occupied by thousands of Indians who were no longer there. We know now that the village had moved on for other reasons but, Custer could only have surmized, by signs, that their departure had been recent and, a result of his approach.
Knowning this helps us to understand some of the subsequent actions of General Custer that occurred. This theory alone makes the reading of the book worthwhile. |
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JGSturgis
Private
Canada
Status: offline |
Posted - March 05 2005 : 01:32:07 AM
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Gentleman, if I may step in here and throw my opinion forward, I realize this is kind-of old, but hey, I'm new. I'm currently writing a book entitled, "And the Name of its Rider was Death, James Garland Sturgis at the Little Big Horn." Which chronicles the life of this much overlooked young soldier and the fight which began and ended his military career. Through extensive research I have came to the following conclusion. Lt. A.E. Smith was wounded at MTC Ford or regardless, soon after, in any case Sturgis was given command of E troop. Companies E and F moved with HQ to the North Ford with Custer where upon discovering the non-combatants and location of a crossing they returned the Battle Ridge area to await Benteen who was still supposed to be coming. When they reached Keogh's battalion a hospital was set up on LSH and F company was deployed around the base of the hill down into the basin area to protect HQ and the hospital. E company was positioned where the modern-day cemetery now is. As the position to the south fell apart the survivors moved to LSH Company F made its, "Last Stand," on LSH while Company E did similar on Cemetery Hill. When HQ and F companies position was clearly to be overrun Sturgis and approximatly 30 or so men decided to make a run for safety in deep ravine and the river area, the only place that wasn't swarming with Indians at the moment. Durring their run to the ravine a few men, no more than 8, of F company joined E troop, those that werent killed in the moved met their end in Deep Ravine. Including Lt. Sturgis who led the move.
As I'm sure you all know the men in Deep Ravine were mutilated badly, the first sergeant only being identified by his socks. Sturgis was in my opinion killed here, making it quite some distance before being killed. It is likely that alot of Indians were pouncing upon these last few soldiers in a blood lust and something of a mob descended on the lieutenants body, the warrior who dealt the Death Wound beat the lieutenants face repeatedly having taken the scalp and then began to take the lieutenants fine clothes. As more Indians came to the body one attempted to pull off his civilian pattern shirt. Rather than negotiate the shirt off of the busy-body the head was severed and the shirt pulled off.
The shirt of Sturgis's found in the body was blue civilian pattern, with JG Sturgis embroidered upon it and the gold buttons on the collar stamped with JGS. The drawers found weren't army issue either, and were also marked JGS to protect the ownership of such quality goods to have on a long campaign. The same way E troops first sergeant marked his name on his socks.
On June 27th Benteen claimed to have Identified every officers remains except Harringtons. Unforunatly he didn't record the locations of the two missing officers who no one else seemed to be able to identifiy which leads me to the conclusion that Benteen was lieing intentionally or was simply mistaken, the captain seems to have distorted many facts involving the campaign, ie) at the Reno court of Inquiry when asked about fords Benteen stated he could cross the river anywhere, he also stated Custer's men were scattered aobut like corn and it was a route, which no other witness, along with archeological evidence seems to disagree with.
Of the three heads found two were identified as Reno's men while the third was damaged beyond recognition. Could it have been that of Lt. Sturgis? we'll never know. Although the bodies in Deep Ravine have never been identified, should they ever perhaps one of those bodies will be minus a skull? only time will tell. |
James Garland Sturgis
7th US Cavalry
2005 Reenactment dates June 24-25-26 |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - March 05 2005 : 11:32:45 AM
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Welcome JG
Just one question.Do you have any idea why Custer sent that urgent message to Benteen? |
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JGSturgis
Private
Canada
Status: offline |
Posted - March 05 2005 : 2:21:46 PM
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| So that he would come to Custer with his battalion and the pack train. I believe the defense of the field was set up well, and with perhaps only one more company it could have held. But thats just my opinion, I'm obviously pro-Custer. |
James Garland Sturgis
7th US Cavalry
2005 Reenactment dates June 24-25-26 |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - March 05 2005 : 3:16:13 PM
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with perhaps only one more company it could have held.
It was that close what? |
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JGSturgis
Private
Canada
Status: offline |
Posted - March 05 2005 : 3:55:50 PM
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| Wild I, I can see where your coming from, I did not mean they could have won the battle alone with another company, or that they could have fought on indefinatly. Rather with another company holes in the defense which the Indians took advantage of could have been plugged and perhaps the command could have held out until Benteen arrived, had he followed his orders. |
James Garland Sturgis
7th US Cavalry
2005 Reenactment dates June 24-25-26 |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - March 05 2005 : 6:11:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JGSturgis
Lt. A.E. Smith was wounded at MTC Ford
MOST unlikely, since Smith's corpse turned up on Custer Hill.
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Companies E and F moved with HQ to the North Ford with Custer where upon discovering the non-combatants and location of a crossing they returned the Battle Ridge area to await Benteen who was still supposed to be coming.
Why go in search for them and then do nothing with them? And what do they expect Benteen to do with Reno, who by now they must know has been repulsed?
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When they reached Keogh's battalion a hospital was set up on LSH
What evidence is there that a hospital was set up?
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Durring their run to the ravine a few men, no more than 8, of F company joined E troop,
How do you know they numbered no more than eight?
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It is likely that alot of Indians were pouncing upon these last few soldiers in a blood lust and something of a mob descended on the lieutenants body, the warrior who dealt the Death Wound beat the lieutenants face repeatedly having taken the scalp and then began to take the lieutenants fine clothes.
How do we know that Sturgis was scalped?
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As more Indians came to the body one attempted to pull off his civilian pattern shirt. Rather than negotiate the shirt off of the busy-body the head was severed and the shirt pulled off.
What prevented him from taking the shirt off and then cutting off the head?
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On June 27th Benteen claimed to have Identified every officers remains except Harringtons. Unforunatly he didn't record the locations of the two missing officers who no one else seemed to be able to identifiy which leads me to the conclusion that Benteen was lieing intentionally or was simply mistaken,
Why on earth would he lie about such a thing?
For the record, we have no document in which Benteen ever claimed this, propria persona. This is something that Charles Roe, 30 years later, supposedly remembered Benteen saying on June 27 (Roe added Lord to the list of alleged non-IDs).
I don't think Benteen ever recognized the bodies of Porter or Sturgis, and I don't think he ever claimed to. He certainly did not in the letter to his wife of July 4. I think Roe was misunderstanding something Benteen said about having discovered confirmation of the deaths of all officers except for Lord and Harrington, not of actually seeing each of their bodies. Benteen, July 4, notes that clothes of Sturgis and Porter were found in the village, and Myles Moylan (in a letter to Fred Calhoun, July 6) writes, "No trace of any kind of Harrington or Dr. Lord have been found". It's far more likely that Benteen was speaking in that sense, and that after 30 years Roe's memory of the point of what was being said had become garbled.
R. Larsen
PS Although Moylan was unaware of it, some of Lord's things were, apparently, found in the village.
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 05 2005 : 8:34:27 PM
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JG, without any condemnation, I seem to get the feeling that you are basing your work upon Fox's interpretations. Is that assumption correct?
Best of wishes,
Billy |
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Lt. 's Harrington and Sturgis?
