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JakeW
Private
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - October 04 2004 : 01:31:01 AM
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Was just wondering, were the bodies of Lt.'s Harrington or Sturgis ever recovered? All I've heard about the remains of Sturgis, was the fact that bloody articles of his clothing were found in the abandoned village. Seems since his father was the actual commander of the regiment (at least on paper), a good deal of effort would have been made to recover his body.
Jake
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"We've Caught 'em Napping Boys!" - Custer's Last Phrase |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
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JakeW
Private
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 04 2004 : 3:22:54 PM
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Thankya sir for clearin that up. I was wonderin if I had maybe missed something in recent studies.
Jake |
"We've Caught 'em Napping Boys!" - Custer's Last Phrase |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 05 2004 : 6:26:49 PM
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Jake--
I was under the impression that two Anglo skulls were found in the remnants of the Indian village. One of those, from what I understand, belonged to Sturgis.
Regards, |
movingrobe |
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JakeW
Private
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 05 2004 : 8:41:00 PM
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Howdy Robe. That's pretty interesting about the skulls. I'd never heard it before, and would be VERY interested in learning more about the matter.
Jake |
"We've Caught 'em Napping Boys!" - Custer's Last Phrase |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - October 06 2004 : 03:32:27 AM
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Theodore Goldin claimed to have found a head that he had "always imagined" was that of Sturgis, and he told about it in his usual weaselly way, with the requisite Convenient Detail --- in this case, the discovery of Sturgis's initials on a piece of fabric near the firepit. Goldin being Goldin, it deserves no credence.
George Glenn thought one of the heads in the village resembled Sturgis, and there's probably no reason to think he was lying, but many other men saw these heads, and none of them ever reported having the same opinion.
R. Larsen
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - October 06 2004 : 9:46:56 PM
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"I had known General Custer from the time I joined the regiment in 1873." Theodore Goldin
The official records show that Theodore Goldin enlisted April 8, 1876.
"I was given a message to deliver to Major Reno."
Theodore Goldin
"Did Lt. Wallace know that you that you had come through with a message from Custer?"
"I presume he did, possibly not at the time, but we often spoke of it later."
Theodore Goldin
Wallace in 1879, questioned under oath, knew nothing of any message from Custer except that carried by Martin to Benteen. In Reno's sworn testimony, supported by Wallace, he stated that no message reached him after he crossed the river to attack.
I do not know what Goldin saw in the village, but there is sufficient evidence to question his veracity.
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 11 2004 : 7:12:50 PM
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| The heads found in the village were likely to be those of Pvt. Jim Turley and/or Pvt. George Smith, both of whom had their horses bolt from Reno's battalion, carrying them into the village. Also, Curley mentioned a soldier with stripes bolting from Custer's command ("like a man who wanted to die") during the MTC episode. At least to me, these three are much more likely to be the burned and blackened heads found in the village, whether it was on poles or under kettles... |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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Smcf
Captain
Status: offline |
Posted - October 14 2004 : 06:09:19 AM
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| Yes, its a wonder nobody thought to ask the Indian leaders what might have happened to the missing soldiers. Sitting Bull could then have said "I don't know about the rest of them, but I've got Lt Sturgis's ball-bag for a tobacco pouch." |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 14 2004 : 5:50:33 PM
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I don't really know what difference any of this makes other than it gives permission to talk about male genitalia mutilation, which somehow is a chronic big favorite here.
There is ample evidence of people collecting body parts in all our wars, including Vietnam. During WWII, Life Magazine put a heartwarming picture on the cover of a housewife writing a thank you to her husband who'd sent her the Japanese skull on the table. Our submariners machine-gunned Japanese survivors, there were units that somehow never took a prisoner, and there are people to this day who have Viet Cong biologic keepsakes. Or say they do. It's not a racial thing, either. During our Civil War irregular units - mostly Confederates - mutilated the dead. One such leader wore a necklace of Union ears.
If we consider all that uncivilized and punishable by hanging or worse then - being a nation of laws - all the guilty need to be punished. It's a little much to demand civilized behavior in war, though. That was one of the things Woodrow Wilson worried about before putting us in WWI and overturning the Monroe Doctrine: he'd seen and heard how people had been changed and warped by the Civil War, and he worried about doing that again. It's a valid concern to have millions of shell shocked vets come home at once. The conservative 1950's were the understandable result of vets just wanting peace and quiet and predictability.
So to demand self-righteous punishment for warriors defending hearth and families is a little much. God knows what any of us would do in that situation. Wouldn't have wanted to be a Sioux warrior captured by the 7th for many years after. Look what they did at Wounded Knee, after all.
Well, okay, shot some of their own by mistake, but it's pretty hard to contend that the women and children dead were necessary or that it wasn't a really, really bad idea to put the 7th in that position given the history between tribe and regiment. That is, unless what happened was desired.
Either way, cavalry at one point cut off female genitalia which has been remarked upon as possibly affecting the inner child of later warriors, like Crazy Horse.
In any case, the Sioux viewed torture as a sort of favor, allowing enemy warriors to demonstrate bravery and stamina before death, just like the Vikings and Mongols did.
We don't know if Sturgis' body was found. Many corpses were unrecognizeable even without much mutilation after three days of 90 degree heat. Blech. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 14 2004 : 9:45:22 PM
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I very highly doubt Sitting Bull had any piece of Lt. Sturgis in any form. If he said he did, he was lying or mistaken, most likely. If soldiers couldn't identify (or find, if you think he escaped the field only to be killed) the lieutenant a few days after, how would a person who probably had never seen Sturgis before be able to do so?
I always liked how Evan S. Connell talked about the mutilations and indecent acts by both sides in the conflict, plus other examples. And he summed it up by offering a message found inscribed into wood at an abandoned fort in early America:
"Nous sommes tous sauvages." |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 15 2004 : 09:19:30 AM
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This prancing, giggling delight in opportunity to talk about Custer's genitalia (how many other American heroes have their jocks on display? Anybody find this very, very strange?)or maybe just male genitalia in general is one of the unique characteristics of the Custerphile, and it long has made me uncomfortable, as it has with established historians as opposed to the specialized Custer writers. I'm not interested in it at all, and find it disturbing so many here continually bring it up at the slightest opportunity. And yes, for the record, most of the mutilation was performed on dead bodies. No, I can't imagine it performed on me. It would, I think, hurt a lot. Of course, I never thought of that till you pointed that out. Such insight, especially about the significance of the specific locations which we philosopher-children might consider obvious. Really turns the thinking around....
It was not later reported, but later rumored about Custer. It may be true, but so what? They had no clue who Custer was. White men tend to look alike. It's highly unlikely Custer wasn't butchered like everyone else, though, or long survived his alleged two bullet wounds. Or that Custer's suffering is somehow more important than that of Joe Blow, trooper, or Agnes Goatherd, peasant/warrior wife #2.
What's the point of your post, Warlord? That Indians tortured? Long known. That they scalped? Long known. So do whites. But it wasn't like they were mounting military expeditions to St. Louis or Chicago. They were being invaded, their families killed, their culture under attack, and they were pissed. What's hard to understand about them wanting to see the invaders suffer? Given how easily our modern troopers succumb to cerebral cortex satisfaction in Abu Graib (yes, yes, few murders and humiliation rather than pain, but it's the same....), the Sioux's actions don't seem outside understanding.
What we're doing in Afghanistan and Iraq isn't, really, much different than what the cavalry was trying to do in the post CW West: keep the clans from killing each other and policing the land for Western advance. And since we apparently haven't learned much, the native warriors, in fear their culture and their prominence in it is going, still take satisfaction in pointless torture and slaughter for their own satisfaction, apparently just to appear to hurt us and impress the campfire talk if nothing else. What's new? You'd hope we have the brains not to start retaliatory revenge cycles. At that point, we'll have brought the Middle East home, not exported our own values to them. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 16 2004 : 05:23:07 AM
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| The lonely finding comfort with the sick.What strange bedfellows.Gives Custerphiles a whole knew meaning. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 16 2004 : 10:55:33 AM
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| Do we need examples my friend? |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 16 2004 : 3:26:27 PM
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| Then I shall leave you to frolic with the more exotic of our contributors. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - November 14 2004 : 8:21:35 PM
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| When ego's collide the resulting explosion results in the earth being drenched with defecation. Oh Lord, the smell! |
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hunkpapa7
Lieutenant
United Kingdom
Status: offline |
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hunkpapa7
Lieutenant
United Kingdom
Status: offline |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - February 07 2005 : 7:36:15 PM
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| Mr. 7, thank you very much for your information. The Harrington mystery has always fascinated me. You've given me new leads to follow which I appreciate. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 07 2005 : 7:50:36 PM
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It doesn't look like a fit at all, to me, for what that's worth. It would be a simple matter of dna, I'd think, since there's a male relative, and I'm suspicious they haven't done it. This was on the board a while back when the book was being flogged. Love to know where the bravest man quote emerged from.
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Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on February 07 2005 7:53:50 PM |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - February 11 2005 : 8:49:54 PM
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I'm not sure if I am in the neighborhood of answering your question but, here goes:
An eyewitness Account by the Lakota Chief Red-Horse.
"Among the soldiers was an officer who rode a horse with four white feet. The Sioux have for a long time have met many brave men of different people, but the Sioux say this officer was the bravest man they ever fought. I don't know whether this was General Custer or not. This officer saved the lives of many soldiers by turning his horse and covering the retreat."
Several theories regarding the identity of this soldier have been offered. One candidate was Capt. French. If I'm not mistaken, I read somewhere that this "brave" soldier was subsequently found near the body of Mitch Bouyer. This, of course, leaves out French who survived.
Another candidate is Lt. Harrington whose body was never recovered. Some believe that he led "C" company, or a portion thereof, to relieve an Indian encroachment to the right flank of Calhoun's skirmish line where the "led" horses were being maintained. This military maneuver may have been reversed by a charge led by Lame White Man. In the resulting "retreat" the soldiers are alleged to have panicked.("Run like buffalo"). Red-Horse's statement may imply that it was Harrington who attempted to counter this retreat. It has also been said that Harrington's jaw-bone was recovered in the area I mentioned before (rear of Calhoun skirmish line, Calhoun Coulee)and, if so, another wrench has been thrown into the works.
The only thing I'm sure of is that one can get a serious headache trying to figure it all out. |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - February 12 2005 : 3:50:41 PM
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Red Horse's statement doesn't imply, at all, that it was Harrington who tried to cover the retreat. He doesn't even tell you what color the horse was. What is there in his story that could lead anyone to make these connections?
As I said earlier, the skull that this guy tries to identify with Harrington is apparently the one found by Dr. Shufeldt on Reno battlefield a few years after the battle. It cannot possibly be Harrington's, plus (as others have noted) the facial reconstruction isn't a good match to begin with.
R. Larsen |
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Lt. 's Harrington and Sturgis?
