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JGSturgis
Private
Canada
Status: offline |
 Posted - March 06 2005 : 02:15:02 AM
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I have never read any of Fox's work.
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MOST unlikely, since Smith's corpse turned up on Custer Hill.
I believe a hospital was established on LSH, White Bull claimed to have shot a buckskin clad officer at the ford and although many consider him to be a liar it fits my scenario. I can see no other reason Smith would have been so far from the majority of his company and its unlikly he was attached to headquarters or something of that nature, James Sturgis had never been in a fight and would not be commanding E troop alone on a day like that.
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Why go in search for them and then do nothing with them? And what do they expect Benteen to do with Reno, who by now they must know has been repulsed?
Weather or not Custer knew of Reno's retreat to the timber is up for debate, either way Boston Custer had arrived and had last seen Benteen riding in Custer's direction, undoubtedly he told his brother this. Why Custer stopped at, or near to the North Ford is also questionable, but I think he wanted to reconsolidate the regiment rather than take off after the non-combatants.
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What evidence is there that a hospital was set up?
The possibility both Custer and Smith were wounded and found on the hill, undoubtedly others were wounded durring the fight and needed medical attention, a location had to be set up for a field-hospital. I'm not saying this is my opinion, but perhaps the men of L,C and I companies found on LSH were wounded and moved to the hospital there earlier in the fight.
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How do you know they numbered no more than eight?
of the 28 men said to be in Deep Ravine I believe 6 are of company F, I factored in a small number being killed on the run. An educated guess.
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How do we know that Sturgis was scalped?
The lieutenant wore his hair at medium length, most everyone else was scalped and for those in Deep Ravine especially mutilated. I can't see why Sturgis would be an exception.
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What prevented him from taking the shirt off and then cutting off the head?
Most historians agree that the fact the shirt was found buttoned in the village hints that he was decapitated first. Why would an Indian unbutton the shirt, remove it, re-button it and leave it behind?
its been a long day. |
James Garland Sturgis
7th US Cavalry
2005 Reenactment dates June 24-25-26 |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - March 06 2005 : 08:00:22 AM
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JG
A hospital?What's this about a hospital?For God's sake the man was unable to set up a skermish line.As for his defence it was spread out over a mile.
either way Boston Custer had arrived and had last seen Benteen riding in Custer's direction, undoubtedly he told his brother this.No offense JG but the above is just an axample of posting without any thought.
Boston Custer did not know of Benteen's orders.Boston did not know of Reno's situation.Boston did not know of the hole his brother had just dug for himself and his command .Boston knew nothing and thought he was riding to a picnic. |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - March 06 2005 : 3:00:17 PM
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Originally posted by JGSturgis
I believe a hospital was established on LSH,
I know you do, but I'm asking why.
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White Bull claimed to have shot a buckskin clad officer at the ford and although many consider him to be a liar it fits my scenario.
No it doesn't, since Smith died on Custer Hill, it's far more likely he got his wound there. White Cow Bull isn't credible, but if he was, you'd have better luck identifying this alleged victim with Porter, since he could have died near the ford, though just as likely (in fact, more likely) did not.
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I can see no other reason Smith would have been so far from the majority of his company and its unlikly he was attached to headquarters or something of that nature, James Sturgis had never been in a fight and would not be commanding E troop alone on a day like that.
There are Indians who say that E Company was on Custer Hill at one point during the battle. Smith probably died then.
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Why go in search for them and then do nothing with them? And what do they expect Benteen to do with Reno, who by now they must know has been repulsed?
Weather or not Custer knew of Reno's retreat to the timber is up for debate, either way Boston Custer had arrived and had last seen Benteen riding in Custer's direction, undoubtedly he told his brother this.
Riding towards the battle would be a more accurate description. I'm still curious what you think Custer would have expected Benteen to do with Reno; we have Curley's authority that Custer had been informed of Reno's retreat by Bouyer, and that could be inferred anyway by his retreat from Medicine Tail Ford. Were Custer waiting for Benteen it beggars description that he would blow off to North Ford to go look at the Indian girls. Isn't he supposed to be fighting a battle or something?
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Why Custer stopped at, or near to the North Ford is also questionable, but I think he wanted to reconsolidate the regiment rather than take off after the non-combatants.
But he had (according to you) already taken off after the noncombatants --- knowing full well the regiment was unconsolidated. Anyway, I question whether he stopped at this North Ford, at all. The evidence isn't good.
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What evidence is there that a hospital was set up?
The possibility both Custer and Smith were wounded and found on the hill, undoubtedly others were wounded durring the fight and needed medical attention, a location had to be set up for a field-hospital.
For all you or I know, Custer and Smith flopped to the ground and died instantly. Where was Lord during all this? You assume he was on Custer Hill, but his body wasn't plausibly identified (it's doubtful Michaelis & Thompson got the right one) and he may well have been with Keogh, or Calhoun, or off on his lonesome. Benteen said it was Lord's habit to ride at the rear of march, so I see little justification for assuming that a hospital was set up, and if it was set up, that it was erected on Custer Hill. Anybody notice any corpses with bandages?
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How do you know they numbered no more than eight?
of the 28 men said to be in Deep Ravine I believe 6 are of company F, I factored in a small number being killed on the run. An educated guess.
An educated guess would not erect unnecessary, arbitrary limits. The only F Troop soldier known to have been identified in Deep Ravine was Timothy Donnelly; it's likely (but not certain) there were others, but there are no facts known to anybody which can justify saying there were "no more" than such & such.
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How do we know that Sturgis was scalped?
The lieutenant wore his hair at medium length, most everyone else was scalped and for those in Deep Ravine especially mutilated. I can't see why Sturgis would be an exception.
Well, how about because we don't know where Sturgis was killed. He could have died in a hole somewhere, with a gunshot wound that tore off parts of his head making his hair not worth a scalp. I assume you're judging his hair length from his picture? Nobody knows what his hair was like on June 25. He may have shaved it all for what anybody knows. The point is you can't assert something that is unknowable.
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Most historians agree that the fact the shirt was found buttoned in the village hints that he was decapitated first. Why would an Indian unbutton the shirt, remove it, re-button it and leave it behind?
You're quite wrong when you say that most historians agree about this, and it seems pretty ludicrous to extrapolate a decapitation from a buttoned-up shirt. The shirt was left behind anyway, so what can that prove? The Indian who filched it must have thought enough of it to take it off in the first place, no matter if he changed his mind later.
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its been a long day.
My sympathies.
R. Larsen |
Edited by - Anonymous Poster8169 on March 06 2005 3:12:39 PM |
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JGSturgis
Private
Canada
Status: offline |
Posted - March 06 2005 : 3:29:08 PM
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Well, how about because we don't know where Sturgis was killed. He could have died in a hole somewhere, with a gunshot wound that tore off parts of his head making his hair not worth a scalp. I assume you're judging his hair length from his picture? Nobody knows what his hair was like on June 25. He may have shaved it all for what anybody knows. The point is you can't assert something that is unknowable.
Exactly, we don't know where he was killed or what his death-wound was, thats the purpose of this topic and I was simply giving my opinion on the matter. From his West Point picture to his 7th Cavalry picture his hair doesn't seem to have changed much at all. What evidence shows he would shave it? none at all, I think its more accurate to say he left his hair as it always was, even if he had cut it short the campaign was a month old, it would have grown back in. |
James Garland Sturgis
7th US Cavalry
2005 Reenactment dates June 24-25-26 |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - March 06 2005 : 4:26:16 PM
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Originally posted by JGSturgis
What evidence shows he would shave it? none at all, I think its more accurate to say he left his hair as it always was, even if he had cut it short the campaign was a month old, it would have grown back in.
I think it's more accurate to say that we don't know what his hair was like on June 25, given the lack of any documentation on the matter. We likewise don't know if he was scalped, or decapitated, for much the same reasons. His body, if found, wasn't recognized, and that's as far as it goes.
R. Larsen |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 06 2005 : 6:51:59 PM
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What precisely was the extensive research bragged about for the Sturgis book given how easily Larsen has already shredded it? In fact, can anybody distinguish either of these two forthcoming books on Harrington and Sturgis from absolute bunkum? A last wash around the bottom of the barrel to fabricate something, anything that might have a slightly new twist on it?
I proposed at one time to review books before they emerge on the LBH in the sure knowledge that the prejudices and incompetencies of the various authors would accurately tunnel all efforts to predictable conclusions. Here are two excellent examples ripe for the reviewer's pen not hindered by the need to read them. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - March 06 2005 : 8:15:02 PM
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Originally posted by Anonymous Poster8169
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Originally posted by JGSturgis
Lt. A.E. Smith was wounded at MTC Ford
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(Larsen) MOST unlikely, since Smith's corpse turned up on Custer Hill.
Marker #105:
"A test excavation was placed on Last Stand Hill immediately adjacent to marker #105 which is inscribed 'Lieutenant Algernon Smith.' The excavation uncovered a complete and mostly articulated left lower arm and hand. The bones represent a single individual."
Page 39, Archaeological Insights D.D.Scott
"The remains found at marker 105 cannot belong to Lt. Smith. Smith had a crippled left arm, the result of a wound suffered during the Civil War. The excavated arm has no evidence of a wound or any other trauma, nor is there any evidence of atrophy in the forearm."
Page 101, same source.
Lt. Smith's corpse is not at marker #105 as it has been assumed. We don't know where it is. The possibility that he was wounded at MTC, as JGSturgis remarked upon, is a viable possibility. |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - March 06 2005 : 8:22:20 PM
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D.c. quote:
I proposed at one time to review books before they emerge on the LBH in the sure knowledge that the prejudices and incompetencies of the various authors would accurately tunnel all efforts to predictable conclusions. Here are two excellent examples ripe for the reviewer's pen not hindered by the need to read them.
Who would review them, you? |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - March 07 2005 : 11:43:00 AM
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Originally posted by joseph wiggs
Lt. Smith's corpse is not at marker #105 as it has been assumed. We don't know where it is. The possibility that he was wounded at MTC, as JGSturgis remarked upon, is a viable possibility.
No it isn't, for reasons beyond that, and though at the risk of feeding flames to more half-baked theories of the kind, I'll let you know that Cooke probably isn't where his marker puts him today, nor is Tom, nor is Boston or Reed. I don't assume that the markers for Yates or Reily mark the spot exactly either, and pity to anyone who does. The battlefield was an utter mess for 15 years, stakes scattered this way and that with each new rainstorm. It was only a few years ago that Brian Pohanka noticed that Keogh's marker was set up about 15 feet from the spot where an 1877 photograph showed his original wooden stake, and the troubles burial crews had in locating the grave of Custer the same year are notorious. Smith's body was ID'd on Custer Hill by several people, as were Cooke, and Tom, and Yates, and that modern research proves the current marker to be at the wrong spot shows only that nature treated Smith's stake very unkindly in the 14 years between burial and Owen Sweet.
R. Larsen |
Edited by - Anonymous Poster8169 on March 07 2005 12:05:03 PM |
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kenny
Recruit
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 16 2006 : 03:01:57 AM
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| If I remember this correctly.Red said the officer was wearing a buckskin coat and had a longknife.That was turning his horse to cover the reteat.The only officer that was wearing buckskin was Custer,Keogh,Yates,Cooke and Porter.Probably some others I can't remember. |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 23 2007 : 7:21:28 PM
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Kenny,
Tom Custer also dressed in similar fashion as his brother. |
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Lt. 's Harrington and Sturgis?
