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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - July 24 2004 : 08:45:56 AM
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Crab, there could obviously be only one source, and that would be Martin. But I don't see where he says anything about a smile, and they apparently exchanged info on the run. You may recall I beefed about people reading novels as if they were history, and this is a possible extract from that sort of thing. Further, riding off with a smile to certain death is a literary template - like 'last words' - that ought to ring all sorts of warning bells.
As much as I dislike Sklenar, he DID address this issue and gave an almost rational explanation: that Custer's first thought was the small village by the lone teepee, and Benteen's scout in force would, in fact, discover the LBH situation and come in from the left on that small village. Theory hampered by impossibility of surprise, the 'village' wasn't, really, but a tomb and the mourners leaving, and had Benteen uncovered Sioux in those badlands you could not fight a cavalry battle there anyway. Still, Custer was not a fool, and he obviously knew he needed all the men he could, and it's to be doubted he sent Benteen on a pointless mission knowingly.
But I cannot figure out what the point was. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 24 2004 : 12:15:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by El Crab
BTW, I've read that Martin/Martini did say Boston inquired as to where the General was, then departed with a smile and rode off to his death. Or something like that. I don't remember if the "and rode off to his death" was attributed to the trumpeter or just added in the book because that's just what happened after he departed. But I believe the source of the smile was Martin/Martini. I'll try to dig that one up...
It's a novelistic detail that we all kind of instinctively add to the story. It's not in Graham though, or in Camp; Boston never even came up in the Reno Court of Inquiry. The impression I get from Graham is that Boston was more impatient than pleased. I suppose there's no reason why Boston couldn't have been grinning like an ape as he licked the dust off his lips, but when Wiggs first mentioned the detail he cited "records" as proof of its validity. These "records," as soon as anybody asked about them, vanished into the chasm of his own mind, and he always refused to deal honestly with the problem. When challenged he prefers to bluff and stonewall.
R. Larsen
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 24 2004 : 2:34:34 PM
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| Well, I know I've read something like that before. I don't own but one novel on the battle, and I don't believe its in there. Surely, Boston Custer was excited, so maybe that was it. But until I figure out where I read that, its a moot point. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 24 2004 : 3:28:20 PM
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You're most likely conflating Martin with recollections of Boston leaving the train and passing people in Benteen's group. And of course the overpowering unimportance of it one way or the other cannot be overemphasized, but the point is you have to fight what Larsen calls the novelistic details that some of us instinctively insert into these stories to make themselves feel good.
Wiggs does this a lot. From another thread he says: "Also, Custer ordered Benteen to send a six man detail ahead of him to travel the rough, ridges whilst his command traveled ground much more suitable for the mounts. This squad was led by Lt. Gibson." Custer, ergo, and not Benteen, ordered six, not five, not seven, to travel the bad land and for Benteen to follow on better ground. See, I thought Gibson was to be quicker and be out ahead of Benteen checking the high points for visualizations down the LBH valley, and that he was Benteen's selection. And I thought Benteen, and his units following behind, were pretty much on Gibson's trail. What is the point of assigning a six man squad specifically led by Lt. Gibson to travel the "rough, ridges." Gibson was to scout ahead to catch sight of the LBH valley, is all. That's what Wiggs probably thinks he has said, but didn't.
The same novelization thing happens here at LBH as with The Titanic. The story is interesting and exciting enough, but in the latter most everyone has to visualize a romance between Steerage and First Class, and no novel or movie fails to include that template. There's just no evidence such a thing happened in those very class conscious times, on that very class conscious ship. And the truth is much more interesting, anyway. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 24 2004 : 4:03:17 PM
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| The fact that you some how figured out what I was "trying" to say pretty much concludes that you understood what I was saying. |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 24 2004 : 7:49:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by El Crab
Well, I know I've read something like that before. I don't own but one novel on the battle, and I don't believe its in there. Surely, Boston Custer was excited, so maybe that was it. But until I figure out where I read that, its a moot point.
Alas, I wasn't talking about novels. This kind of stuff has a habit of creeping into many histories. Dark Cloud mentioned the Titanic, but think also of the Alamo, the Civil War, those sickly World War II "pop histories". Dan Kurzman wrote an entertaining book about the USS Indianapolis a few years ago, which is basically fiction modeled on a few facts pumped out of the McVey court-martial and interviews. And there have only been two books published on the Dade Massacre, both by the same man (Frank Laumer), but they are each as fictional as Kurzman's. Too many people --- and Wiggs is clearly one of them --- can't resist the urge to plaster the raw details with their own fertile (as in fertilizer) imaginings.
R. Larsen
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 24 2004 : 7:54:03 PM
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quote:
Wiggs, what exactly is an "offensive circle"?
Is it related to a purulent square?
R. Larsen |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 25 2004 : 06:51:14 AM
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| Or a Bermuda triangle??? |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 26 2004 : 9:15:29 PM
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| Elliot's men were discovered in a geometric configuration that enabled the men to meet and confront the enemy regardless of his approach; a circle. Imagine a wheel with the spokes representing individual soldiers. Utilization of such an offensive tactic enabled the command to face and confront an enemy who has the capability to attack in all directions. Unfortunately, Indian sharpshooters from nearby ridges dispatched the men as they lay. When all the soldiers were either killed or wounded from sniper fire, the warriors came in for the final "coup." At the end, I would venture to guess that the poor souls wished that they were anywhere other than the spot of ground that received their blood; even the Bermuda Triangle with Brent. |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 26 2004 : 9:43:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
Elliot's men were discovered in a geometric configuration that enabled the men to meet and confront the enemy regardless of his approach; a circle. Imagine a wheel with the spokes representing individual soldiers. Utilization of such an offensive tactic enabled the command to face and confront an enemy who has the capability to attack in all directions. Unfortunately, Indian sharpshooters from nearby ridges dispatched the men as they lay. When all the soldiers were either killed or wounded from sniper fire, the warriors came in for the final "coup." At the end, I would venture to guess that the poor souls wished that they were anywhere other than the spot of ground that received their blood; even the Bermuda Triangle with Brent.
It wasn't an "offensive" tactic. It was defensive, and its poor location --- low ground, high grass, poor line of fire --- attests to panic and desperation more than anything. How exactly did it "enable" them to confront the enemy? 18 dead soldiers, and it seems the only Indian they took down was a fellow who tried to count coup too early.
R. Larsen
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 28 2004 : 8:44:21 PM
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Whenever troops respond to a miltary threat in a precise movement, regardless of what type, it is "Primi Facie" evidence that orders were given and followed. The location was poor for any type of engagement, however, location was not of Elliot's choosing. The complete absence of formation, officers away from their commands, and "bunkies" not together bespeaks of panic, terror, and loss of control.
When totally surrounded by an aggresive enemy, the selection of military tactics to confront the foe are limited. Unlike the British troops who often used large groups of manpower to establish the "British Square" to stave-off the enenmy, Poor Elliot only had a comparatively few men to do the same. Had the warriors been foolish enough to committ themselves to an aggressive charge, undoubtedly, their losses would have been severe. Engaging in sniping firing from the nearby bluffs doomed the soldiers to complete defeat.
And you are so right, one over eager warrior paid the penalty for his rashness. Thanks, I had forgotten about that. |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 29 2004 : 11:26:59 AM
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The location was poor for any type of engagement, however, location was not of Elliot's choosing.
That's silly. It was his choice to chase Indians that far from support. He knew the potential risks. Skirmishes of the Elliott type are NOT common, because most officers weren't foolish enough to gamble like that.
Wiggs, of course, doesn't acknowledge the nonsense he was pumping out, though it would have been entertaining to see it in action.
(Wa****a, 1868.)
Elliott--- "Holy moly, look at all those Indians! Men, here's my plan. We're going to form an OFFENSIVE CIRCLE. This geometric configuration will enable us to meet and confront the enemy and enforce in him panic, terror, and loss of control. No man can withstand the circle. Alright men, let go your horses, lay down, and commence firing blindly from the high grass. I smell a promotion in the wind."
Nameless Soldier--- "Anyone else think we should cap a round in Maj. Elliott? I'm thinking right in the left cheek...."
2nd Soldier--- "I got dibs on the genital mutilation"
R. Larsen
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Edited by - Anonymous Poster8169 on July 29 2004 11:34:30 AM |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 30 2004 : 10:04:16 PM
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| Men often do foolish things. I have, and I would imagine that perhaps, you have too. Hindsight being 20/20, it is relatively easy for you to proclain Elliot's choice as silly. In his zest to mow down escaping Indians, he found himself on grounds not suitable for his purposes. Ergo, he and his men were liquidated. Your silly responses are completely void of any substance but, they are so typical of you. |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on July 30 2004 10:09:33 PM |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 30 2004 : 11:17:05 PM
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It's unlikely I can ever establish a type as vapid as that shown in your own postings, which with their wretched grammar, chronic misspellings, epileptic logic, and wild malapropisms, are the verbal equivalent of a hernia. The person I actually said was silly was you, not Elliott. Elliott was merely reckless; unlike some, he paid for it.
R. Larsen
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 06 2004 : 9:48:09 PM
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You must be really upset to utilize such a big word as
"Malapropisms". Although your chronic usage of "Vapid" is becoming quite boorish. I show your persnickety remarks to the neighborhood children as often as possible. We all get such a wonderful laugh. They all remark how strange your language is, they feel that "real" people do not talk/wtite that way. I assure them that you are not really "people."
Your insidious remarks regarding the wounding, multilation, and death of Elliot's command did nothing to counter my argument of how the men arrived at their final resting place. Your statements were merely another, unsolicited, splattering of the repulsive language that is a peculiar characteristic of your specific species (what ever that may be.) |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 06 2004 : 10:44:02 PM
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| Try hanging around adults. Kids do scenes from The Rivals in school and are taught English lit and don't rarely run across Sheridan, so many if not most people know about malapropisms, and what it means. Odd you didn't, because it isn't a rare term. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 07 2004 : 12:41:18 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
You must be really upset to utilize such a big word as
"Malapropisms".
"Malapropism" is hardly a big word, and we each probably encounter what it describes several times each week. Sorry if the word intimidates you. Life must, if "malapropism" does.
quote:
Although your chronic usage of "Vapid" is becoming quite boorish.
It is vapid behavior which is boorish, not the identification of such, but if it spares your feelings I'll try to use a synonym next time. It'll hand you another word to mutilate.
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I show your persnickety remarks to the neighborhood children as often as possible. We all get such a wonderful laugh.
Why are you hanging around neighborhood children? What else are you showing them that you find on the computer?
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They all remark how strange your language is, they feel that "real" people do not talk/wtite that way. I assure them that you are not really "people."
You're right, I am hardly plural. Neither are those "kids" whose existence you just made up. What did the kiddies say when you demonstrated to them an offensive circle?
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Your insidious remarks regarding the wounding, multilation, and death of Elliot's command did nothing to counter my argument of how the men arrived at their final resting place.
You didn't have an argument, Joseph. Just bloviating to try to squirm around the idiocy of your "offensive circle". There's no controversy about how Elliott got there.
quote:
Your statements were merely another, unsolicited, splattering of the repulsive language that is a peculiar characteristic of your specific species (what ever that may be.)
Incoherence.
R. Larsen
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 07 2004 : 6:03:32 PM
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Wiggs, just in case you did not bother to look it up, here is the definition of malapropism:
mal´a`prop`ism
Noun 1. malapropism - the unintentional misuse of a word by confusion with one that sounds similar
malaprop
misstatement - a statement that contains a mistake
And to further clarify:
Mis`state´ment
Noun 1. misstatement - a statement that contains a mistake
statement - a message that is stated or declared; a communication (oral or written) setting forth particulars or facts etc; "according to his statement he was in London on that day"
mistake, error - part of a statement that is not correct; "the book was full of errors"
malaprop, malapropism - the unintentional misuse of a word by confusion with one that sounds similar
slip of the tongue - an accidental and usually trivial mistake in speaking
With the best of wishes for your successful lobotomy,
Billy |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 09 2004 : 09:12:11 AM
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| Just checking guys.Benteen never scouted the third valley although order to do so by a message carried by the sergeant major.True ? |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 09 2004 : 10:05:26 AM
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Here's a fun exercise. Since Benteen never halted awaiting orders on his scout, how far ahead of time was Custer sending off these couriers, and based on what? Plot it out. Gray doesn't, as I recall. Isn't this VERY strange? Why not just tell Benteen to continue until he can see the southern LBH valley and report and return to Custer? There is a huge dissonance between Benteen's alleged orders before he left the regiment and these additional couriers. Custer couldn't formulate orders that didn't need updates every twenty minutes? If he was seeing the need to update Benteen's orders this often from his trail, why not send some scouts ahead between the two units to save time?
Really, the command of the 7th gave bad orders, subject to interpretation, and did so in confusing and incoherent ways that do not, even today, suggest a well thought out or even vaguely coherent plan. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 16 2004 : 5:25:51 PM
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Hi Billy, sorry that I'm so late in getting back to you, but here I am. The fact that you, obviously, assumed that I do not possess a Thesaurus prompted you to graciously look up the word 'malapropism' for me. I thank you so much for your effort. However, your assumption about that, as well as, my future 'lobotomy'
is incorrect and, indicative of a mentally deficient person incapable of rational conduct(idiot.)
May I suggest a helpful, little hint? If you have nothing of value to say about TLBH, don't waste your time (which is,apparently, of no value), energy, or intellect(smile) attempting to malign me.
Mis'state' ment - When little Billy grows up he will ne a fine adult. (False, Billy is already grown and yet, he continues to indulge in puerile behavior. |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 16 2004 : 5:56:41 PM
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Wiggs, lay off the booze and quit arm-twisting the neighborhood children to write for you. The avalanche of misplaced commas is obscene, the attempt at witty invective ponderous and stupid.
R. Larsen |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 16 2004 : 5:57:47 PM
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| Nobody maligns you, Wiggs. It's your inability to understand what you've read, or purport to have written, that has produced whatever image people have of you. The numerous sentences of yours saying the exact opposite of what you think they mean would alone condemn you. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on August 16 2004 5:58:34 PM |
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Benteen's "scout"--to see what he could see??
