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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - July 20 2004 : 06:57:00 AM
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Remember that children's song--The Bear went over the Mountain?? To see what he could see. And all that he could see was--well--the other side of the mountain!
For some reason, this reminds me of Benteen's scout.
So I'm curious and will draw on the collective knowledge of the forum. When Custer sent Benteen (and his companies) on the Valley scout, did he have ANY reliable information to suggest that there were Indians in that area? Things like ponies being spotted, dust clouds, smoke from campfires, a "trail" being spotted--that sort of thing. I understand the thinking that there certainly "might be" Indians there, but anything at all to suggest there really were??
Or, were he and his 3 companies "just looking"?? To see what he could see, at a time whan the attack on the "Big Village" was getting underway.
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 20 2004 : 8:38:37 PM
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| Why not just send some scouts who'd be quicker and less likely to be seen by dust cloud? They'd be back in time for the still united regiment to formulate something. I've never understood this and have sympathized with Benteen's whines about it because it IS crappy horse country. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - July 20 2004 : 11:59:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Why not just send some scouts who'd be quicker and less likely to be seen by dust cloud? They'd be back in time for the still united regiment to formulate something. I've never understood this and have sympathized with Benteen's whines about it because it IS crappy horse country.
Actually, a friend of mine leads horse rides that follow Benteen's scout. It is good horse country -- everyone I've spoken to who has taken the ride loved it. |
Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 21 2004 : 12:32:49 AM
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| Good as in enjoyable or good as in easy on the animals? |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 21 2004 : 06:35:00 AM
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bhist:
Oh I get your point and can certainly see the value in "looking". And even the value of having 3 companies (with nothing better to do) on hand in case something turned up. Especially if there were any signs of Indians. But absent any such signs, it seems the needed information could have been quickly obtained from a few scouts. In fact, didn't Benteen have a few scouts out himself?
And--suppose Benteen actually found Indians and "pitched into" them? He's suddenly engaged several miles away from the main action--not able to give any help, and possibly needing help himself.
I understand Custer probably didn't intend for him to be gone for long, but the very act of sending him away (at a time when big things were starting to happen at the big village) meant that he had to get him back-and that, as we know, was trouble. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 21 2004 : 08:27:34 AM
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Then either I was misinformed on Benteen's scout or I'm blind. If you follow the trail as it was pointed out, from afar, to me in 1983, and going the way it was presented to me, heading up and down those gullies (and some far bigger than gullies) it looked terrible. Further, Godfrey and others said the same thing. I'm quite confused.
Edited in later:
Is there new evidence of a different route, or what exact trail are the campers following? Are they following the exact route? As I recall, there were two owners of the land it traversed and one wasn't thrilled about people puttering around on it, and the other wanted to be paid anyway. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on July 21 2004 08:56:39 AM |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - July 21 2004 : 1:38:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Then either I was misinformed on Benteen's scout or I'm blind. If you follow the trail as it was pointed out, from afar, to me in 1983, and going the way it was presented to me, heading up and down those gullies (and some far bigger than gullies) it looked terrible. Further, Godfrey and others said the same thing. I'm quite confused.
Edited in later:
Is there new evidence of a different route, or what exact trail are the campers following? Are they following the exact route? As I recall, there were two owners of the land it traversed and one wasn't thrilled about people puttering around on it, and the other wanted to be paid anyway.
Yes, the exact route. I suggest, D.C., that you take the route before you judge any further. |
Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - July 21 2004 : 1:47:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Brent
bhist:
I understand Custer probably didn't intend for him to be gone for long, but the very act of sending him away (at a time when big things were starting to happen at the big village) meant that he had to get him back-and that, as we know, was trouble.
Actually, I haven't been able to find any evidence that tells me when Custer expected Benteen should return from the scout. That really bugs me.
Custer sent his last message to Benteen to hurry up before Boston arrived to report Benteen was on the trail. So, when Custer sent the last message, he had no idea how long it would take the messenger to find Benteen, right? If one follows this logic, then way did Custer keep going down MTC? Did he change his tactics after Boston arrived with the news about Benteen being back on the trail?
Yes, it's true that Benteen sent riders ahead of his battalion to check over the next hill. Benteen realized his scout was ludicrous. But, he was a soldier and followed his orders.
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Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 21 2004 : 3:04:15 PM
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| "Rough, steep hills and deep valleys" is how Godfrey describes that section of the Benteen march.(pg. 138 Myth) He goes on and on about it. Edgerly and Benteen concur. It may not be 'dangerous' but it doesn't sound like an easy ride, and it conforms to my distant (in time and miles) memory. How is it possible that all three would misrepresent it? Is this the ride from the split up just after noon to the Flats or only part of it? How, actually, was the exact route discerned? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - July 21 2004 : 3:07:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
"Rough, steep hills and deep valleys" is how Godfrey describes that section of the Benteen march.(pg. 138 Myth) He goes on and on about it. Edgerly and Benteen concur. It may not be 'dangerous' but it doesn't sound like an easy ride, and it conforms to my distant (in time and miles) memory. How is it possible that all three would misrepresent it? Is this the ride from the split up just after noon to the Flats or only part of it? How, actually, was the exact route discerned?
You know, D.C., when a good friend tells me he leads people along Benteen's scout by horse, and another friend from New Zealand took that same ride along with all the other LBH horse rides and found it to be his favorite, I don't question them. That is my answer to you. |
Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - July 21 2004 : 4:10:28 PM
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| Why was the scout ludicrous? How far would Benteen have to ride to see the Little Bighorn Valley? |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 21 2004 : 4:22:05 PM
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Okay, I haven't ridden it and I could certainly be and often am wrong, but we should keep in mind the different descriptions, and that either the 7th was composed of wussies or their horses were shot, Benteen and Godfrey and Edgerly and others lied dangerously in front of others to no point, or today's riders and horses are better, or it isn't, in fact, the same route. Because that's too much of a dissonance to pat into shape. Something's off.
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Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - July 21 2004 : 6:57:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Okay, I haven't ridden it and I could certainly be and often am wrong, but we should keep in mind the different descriptions, and that either the 7th was composed of wussies or their horses were shot, Benteen and Godfrey and Edgerly and others lied dangerously in front of others to no point, or today's riders and horses are better, or it isn't, in fact, the same route. Because that's too much of a dissonance to pat into shape. Something's off.
D.C. -- you need to stop working so hard to understand something.
The answer is probably as simple as the fact that circumstances are different for a rider, today, casually moving along Benteen's route compared to three companies looking for Indians, after riding horses for a month over 500 miles, let alone a previous night march.
Does that make sense?
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Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 22 2004 : 06:53:20 AM
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prolar:
An even better question would be how far would a few scouts have to ride??
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - July 22 2004 : 2:38:44 PM
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| Brent: Good point, but whether a few scouts are three companies, why does bhist call it ludicrous to find if there were other camps? |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 22 2004 : 4:34:57 PM
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I guess ludicrous isn't the word I would have used. Maybe Benteen thought so?? That's later, of course. At the time who knows what he was really thinking.
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 23 2004 : 6:56:42 PM
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There are two factors to be considered when discussing the reasons for Benteens' scout First, Custer was concerned about finding himself in a similar situation as the one he encountered in the Battle of the Wa****a. He attacked a camp at the end of a string of camps that stretched out for approximately seven miles. Only a quick withdrawal of his troops, which resulted in the lost of Maj. Elliot, saved his command from the fast approaching warriors from the other villages located down stream.
Benteens' approach to the southern portion of the valley would accomplish two goals, (a)ascertain that no villages were strung out along the Big Horn and, (b)to be in position to repel any Indians attempting to flee south. Hence, Custer attached three companies to Benteen rather than a couple of scouts on fast horses.
Also, Custer ordered Benteen to send a six man detail ahead of him to travel the rough, ridges whilst his command traveled ground much more suitable for the mounts. This squad was led by Lt. Gibson.
The second important factor were Terry's written orders that may have had a play in Custer's decision. "Should it be found (as it appears almost certain that it will be found) to turn towards the Little Bighorn, he thinks that you should still proceed southward, perhaps as far as the headwaters of the Tongue, and then turn toward the Little BigHorn, feeling constantly, however, to you left, so as to preclude the escape of the Indians passing around your left flank."
Rather than following that order to the letter, the General picked up a "Hot Lead" in the huge trails left behind by the movement of the large encampment. Unwilling to turn away from such an important "clue", he continued to pursue the fresh tracks. It is possible that the "Scout" was a belated attempt to comply with that order. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 23 2004 : 8:29:06 PM
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I direct you to http://www.juvalamu.com/qmarks/. You're on your "way" there.
You're as informed on the Wa****a as the LBH. Custer hung around all day after his dawn attack. Elliot was killed early on while Custer was still in the camp. The Indians did not rush from the other villages but trickled up over the course of the day. It was only late in the day when Custer got organized to leave that he worried about being attacked, and Ben Clark apparently suggested the idea to march towards the other villages with the band and then reverse course after dark. Worked. So there was no quick withdrawal that doomed Elliot.
If Custer was worried about camps along the Big Horn, he should have dispatched Benteen to the Big Horn. Most curious where you get the orders Custer gave Benteen? Or is this from the trove that gave us the Benteen-Elliot friendship, Boston's smile to Martin, etc. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 23 2004 : 10:54:21 PM
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Allow me to spell it out for you in simple words that even you may understand. Custer did spend several hours in the camp, rounding up Indians and dispatching a large heard of Indian ponies. In the heat of the battle, the Indian survivors fled towards the camps down stream. Many were wounded, all were freezing, and some were stunned by the unexpected attack. It took some time to travel the distance to their fellowmen to receive aid. It took additional time for their comrades to respond to the scene, as it were. While responding, the warriors came across Major Elliot and his command. Guess what, it took some time to dispatch these men who fought for lives for sometime. Their desecrated bodies were found in an offensive circle, weapons pointed to the front.
Sometime later, Custer observed these same warriors crowding the bluffs and, naturally, he realized that he must soon depart. He therefore ordered a "feint" towards the warriors (a military tactic well known to him) then directed an orderly retreat. This tactic brought him enough time to make good his escape. Please don't take my word for this, do a little reading before you make such disparaging remarks. Another thing, please stop responding to my post, I find your replies to myself,and other forum members, to be equally annoying. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 23 2004 : 11:27:45 PM
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Gee, that's a real shame, Wiggs. Unfortunately, your newest fabrication rather compels correction, as they will in the future.
First, you state "Only a quick withdrawal of his troops, which resulted in the lost of Maj. Elliot, saved his command from the fast approaching warriors from the other villages located down stream." That wasn't true. Now, you post information you feel I'll understand that contradicts your own assertion. Odd your new information is remarkably close to what I posted. Your second post is in utter contradiction of your first on this subject. Everyone has their traditions.
Even if Elliot fought for three hours, and there's no evidence he did or could have, he's dead before noon. Custer was around for hours after. This means that Custer's retreat was neither quick nor relevant to what happened to Elliot. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 24 2004 : 04:10:20 AM
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| BTW, I've read that Martin/Martini did say Boston inquired as to where the General was, then departed with a smile and rode off to his death. Or something like that. I don't remember if the "and rode off to his death" was attributed to the trumpeter or just added in the book because that's just what happened after he departed. But I believe the source of the smile was Martin/Martini. I'll try to dig that one up... |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 24 2004 : 07:34:51 AM
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Joe:
I understand the goals of a scout like Benteens--time permitting, and the 3 companies attached having little better to do.
But this "reconnisance in force" comes just at a time when a big village is about to be attacked. Consider that Custer (with 600 men)is attacking a village with 1,500-1,800 warriors. Since no one knows exactly how many warriors there really were, can we say he's outnumbered about 3 to one?? Custer surely knows the odds aren't great, even if he's not certain what they are exactly.
Attacking a village like that with the entire regiment is in itself a daunting task, even considering that you expect the Indians to flee and scatter. So why then detach 143 men to gather information that could be gathered (and probably more quickly) by scouts? And when there are no signs whatsoever that there ARE any Indians in that vicinity? And risking the possibility that those men just MIGHT become engaged themselves. Probably no getting them back then, and possibly needing to send them help!!
In the "risk/reward" scenario, this 3-company scout had lots of risk with little in the way of reward. I often wonder what Custer REALLY thought Benteen would find? I'm beginning to suspect--nothing.
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Benteen's "scout"--to see what he could see??
