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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - July 01 2004 : 6:16:09 PM
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I just got back from LBH and am curious. What are your opinions concerning the movements of E troop? If possible, could you also include source materials for your observations? I seem to recall, at least in Michno, that there was a feint at MTC towards the river without a crossing in mind, then a "hell of a battle" on Cemetery Ridge (Rod Thomas at the CBHMA seminar last Friday), and a fall-back to LSH, where in a last ditch attempt to draw the Lakota and Cheyenne away, a release of their horses (once again, Michno, "Lakota Noon"). I am very new to LBH study.
Thanks a lot--
Moving Robe
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 02 2004 : 11:20:48 PM
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Movingrobewoman,
Micho's "Lakota Noon" is a well written and, informative book that I thoroughly enjoyed. However, his thesis regarding the final resting place of "E" troop in his latest book seems to go against the grain of historical facts. Many of the Indian and White participants speak of 20 to 28 soldiers found in the Cul De Sac of Deep Ravine. Micho's hypotheis, I think, is based upon the failure of modern day science to discover the soldier boddies in Deep Ravine. He, therefore, concludes that they must have died at a different location. One theory is that after a hundred and twenty six years of water flow down the ravine and, the subsequent movement of soil, the soldiers are buried deeply within the Cul De Sac of Deep Ravine.
The following testimony is of interest:
Sgt. Ryan - "I also saw where 20 or 28 men belonging to Company 'E', Lt.Smith's 'Gray Horse Troop...had gotten into a ravine.
Lt. Hare- "Probably 300 yards from where the final stand was made (on monument Hill) there were 28 men of 'E' company.
Capt. McDougall - "I found most of them in a ravine."
I believe that Micho believes( I could be wrong as I have not read his book yet) that "E" troop met their demise on Cemetary Ridge. Your very good question will make me get off my lazy duff and read the book so that I may do more than speculate. |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
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Posted - July 03 2004 : 04:35:18 AM
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| Cemetery Ravine. Michno wrote an entire book discussing the accounts of where the bodies were found... |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
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Posted - July 03 2004 : 10:20:24 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by El Crab
Cemetery Ravine. Michno wrote an entire book discussing the accounts of where the bodies were found...
Michno at his most manipulative.
R. Larsen
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 03 2004 : 4:20:37 PM
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I don't believe the location of "300 yards" from Custer Hill describes Deep Ravine. And I don't think Michno is being manipulative, just questioning the "facts". But to each their own.
The bodies haven't been found in Deep Ravine. The accounts from the soldiers in the "burials" are inconsistent as to where they were found. Some said 28 were in a ravine, some said half were in, half were out, etc. Different distances from fixed points don't help either.
Until their remains are found, who knows which ravine they were found in. Probably a little bit of both... |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 03 2004 : 6:58:25 PM
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El Crab et., al.,
I am assuming you are referring to "The Mystery of E Troop," a Michno book I have not yet read. But I am in agreement that there is SOMETHING, possibly important, in Cemetery Ravine. I did consider Michno's discussion sections in "Lakota Noon" to be overreaching in their "assumptions." But at the same time, what author is not manipulative? Michno's "Sand Creek" was the book that received the most attention at the CBHMA seminar this year ... I do think that Mike Donahue may have a point in an attempt by E and F at ford D ... and a run from Cemetery Ridge to Deep Ravine. But this is all guesswork.
You really do need to go to the battlefield!
Movingrobewoman |
movingrobe |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 04 2004 : 06:25:46 AM
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Movingrobewoman:
Just curious about that "Hell of a Battle" observation made by Rod Thomas. I don't seem to recall anything about that in previous readings. In fact, most of what I read suggests "not much" of a battle---. |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 04 2004 : 11:49:34 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by El Crab
I don't believe the location of "300 yards" from Custer Hill describes Deep Ravine.
Close enough. Deep Ravine is a hundred yards or more farther. Distance estimates are notoriously inaccurate; always have been.
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The bodies haven't been found in Deep Ravine.
Or in Cemetery Ravine, for that matter. We don't know exactly where they are, and won't without a full-out dig of Deep Ravine and the South Skirmish Line. Probably they're all buried in an unexplored pocket in Deep Ravine --- most accounts suggest that they were generally heaped together, not scattered about as we see in other areas of the battle. There are a few pieces of evidence that suggest that some, maybe all of the bodies were carried up and buried on higher ground, but I doubt this and believe most of them are likely still in the ravine. If they weren't removed, they were covered up by 1881, since Lt. Roe was insistent that the ravine held only two or three bodies.
R. Larsen
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 04 2004 : 12:04:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by movingrobewoman
But at the same time, what author is not manipulative?
Some are more manipulative than others. Granted, Michno is no Thomas Ricks Lindley (who is a horror show) but he's earned his own special place. His paraphrases mislead, he presents without telling the reader speculation as fact, takes quotes out of context, and omits information that may be damaging to his theories --- sometimes even from the source he's quoting. Many of his conclusions seem pre-judged, with the evidence arranged and contorted to fit them. Other authors (Graham, Fox, Gray) are able to avoid these traps (mostly), though probably they succumb to it at one point or another --- sins of omission being the most common in history-writing.
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Michno's "Sand Creek" was the book that received the most attention at the CBHMA seminar this year ...
What was their reaction to it?
R. Larsen
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 04 2004 : 12:06:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Brent
Movingrobewoman:
Just curious about that "Hell of a Battle" observation made by Rod Thomas. I don't seem to recall anything about that in previous readings. In fact, most of what I read suggests "not much" of a battle---.
Yeah, I wondered about that too. How hellish could it be if barely anybody remembered it.
R. Larsen
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 04 2004 : 3:35:39 PM
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Until the remains of the "E" troopers are actually recovered, their actual site of demise is unknownable. By gleaning through avaulable data, however, we may come up with an educated guess.
According to Captain Freeman, who inspected the battlefield a few days after fighting ended, "The upper end of the ravine-VERY STEEP-formed a pocket in which 28 bodies were found."
Theodore Goldin saw the bodies in positions that,"proved to be a cul-de-sac."
Moylan placed the remains at a half mile from the Little Big Horn River which approximately matches the location of the Deep Ravine headwall.
IRON Hawk stated that, "The soldiers kept going until they reached a little creek."
Lights stated, "Many jumped over the steep bank into this gully."
When one stands upon Custer Hill and pan westward, down the basin towards the river, you can not help but notice the prominent niche that lies before you. With the advent of the South Skirmish Line paved trail that now exist, you can walk down this path which terminates into a cul de sac with steep walls as described by witnessess.
I know of no other land formations in the area that so closely matches the descriptions given. |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 07 2004 : 10:38:46 AM
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| Been away for a couple of days. In regards to the "helluva battle" on Cemetery Ridge, Rod was referring to Mike Donahue's research "Beyond Custer Hill," a paper that was presented to the CBHMA last year. I didn't have the $ to buy the symposium book last month, so I don't have a clear source for Donahue's attributions. As for this year's symposium, the word on Michno's "Sand Creek," was quite positive--also receiving high marks was Jerome Greene's "Wa****a." |
movingrobe |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 07 2004 : 9:35:23 PM
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| Glad you are back, you were missed. |
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E Troop Movements
