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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - June 29 2004 : 07:43:28 AM
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Deafened by silence to previous opportunities in vaguely related threads , I want to offer those who get off on damning Reno and Benteen and pointing out their failures the opportunity to flex their military genius and tell history what should have been done to either 'save' Custer or obtain a better result than what happened on 6/25/1876.
Obviously, the chosen baseline for change is arbitrary, but this is just for discussion.
1. Reno. Given what was known then, tell us what Reno should have done different from the time he assembled his command on the west bank of the Little Bighorn. Bear in mind what he said, and others have said, he was told by Custer. Attach your improvements to a timeline so that we understand everything is coherent to known facts and doable.
2. Benteen. Tell us what he could have done different from the moment he received his note from Martin. Again, attach to the timeline. Of special interest, once on Reno Hill tell us the manner and makeup of any different configuration than that which occured and why this would have been better to obtain your goals (and: what are they?).
Otherwise, if you have no improvement, offer up your apologies to these guys for shouldering abuse way beyond what they deserved and resolve that, absent comparable experience in which you yourself excelled, you'll cease to badmouth them.
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Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - June 29 2004 : 08:51:49 AM
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you'll cease to badmouth them
I'm not one of those who have badmouted either but it's an interesting exercise however Reno and Benteen are tied together any change of action for one commits the other to a change of action.
So here goes.
3.00 Reno forms up his Battalion and advances on South of village
3.15 Reno has holy s*** moment calls a halt and retreats in good order using rear guard to hold off any pursuit.
3.30 Reno is back at point where he seperated from Custer.Sends messenger to Custer,Benteen and packs advising them of situation.
4.00 messenger reaches Custer near Nye Cartwright Ridge.
4.10 Benteen links up with Reno.
3.15 Onwards Indians demonstrate against Reno/Benteen position while civvies run.
4.05 Furious Custer withdraws towards Reno/Benteen.
4.20 Regiment reunited.Indians follow civvies.
4.30 Drum head court marshall
4.45 Reno shot.
Cheers
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 29 2004 : 4:55:22 PM
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I don't recall anyone getting off on damning Reno nor Benteen.
1. Reno: Formulate a "Rear Guard" to cover the retreat to the bluffs. This is a sound and, in this case, extremely necessary tactic. It would have undoubtedly saved lives. Upon reaching the river, position troopers to cover the crossing. These actions may not have saved Custer but, it certainly would have saved some of Reno's command.
Benteen: I understand the possible confusion Benteen may have been confronted with upon receiving the note. However, remaining on the bluff, for over an hour, while hearing volley firing from Custer is a bit more difficult to digest. Could he have saved Custer by moving out earlier, I don't know. Could things have turned out differently if he had responded sooner with three, fresh, companies; maybe. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - July 02 2004 : 07:21:16 AM
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Sounds like you were a teacher in another life DC---correcting spelin looking for hands,not a military man,classical education showing up now and again
Have A nice day Teach |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 02 2004 : 10:31:12 PM
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| I don't believe that it is possible to prove that Reno and Benteen were wrong about anything they did. I think that different options could have been selected by them and, as a result, may have resulted in different conclusions to the battle. While I don't agree with Reno's hasty retreat without a rearguard, or Benteen's choice of staying upon the bluffs for over an hour, I'm sure they had their reasons. |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 04 2004 : 11:31:03 AM
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I'm not raising my hand--but in light of the limited response--just speaking out of turn and am prepared to accept detention.
Most folks' opinions on what they could have done different(ly?) seems to be for Reno to keep right on charging and for Benteen (as he rode by at break-neck speed past Reno on the bluff) to holler "You're on your own" and head right for were he though Custer might be. In other words-strict obedience to "orders".
In which case they probably both would have lost their commands--or most of them anyway. And quite possibly their own lives. Whether or not the outcome for Custer himself would have been different--who knows?
It certainly would have been a noble and obedient thing to do and their praise would have been sung from here to eternity. And had they been part of Custer's "inner circle", they may have done exactly that. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 04 2004 : 12:10:26 PM
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Noble in what way? Getting people for whom you are responsible killed for no purpose, excepting the removed entertainment of those who love that sort of self-centered hypocrisy? Enfeebling your nations's army for personal glory?
If Reno had kept right on charging, by the time Custer got around to supporting him an hour later it's hard to see any of Reno's troopers alive. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 04 2004 : 1:03:38 PM
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Oh, I agree. Just put noble as "noble".
Sort of like Leonidas??
"Tell them in Washington, passerby, that here-obedient to orders-we lie" |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - July 04 2004 : 1:55:48 PM
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to holler "You're on your own" and head right for were he though Custer might be
Best laugh I got to-day.I oweya a pint. |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 04 2004 : 2:21:51 PM
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How about a Heffeweizen on draft??!!
Dark Cloud:
Just finished taking a shower and was thinking about your post the whole time--. The following is predicated on my assumption that once Reno was driven to the bluffs, his outfit was so panic stricken and demoralized that it was not fit for any further offensive action.
How about this:
Reno "charges" the Village and when he sees no signs of support, he slows, then stops. He heads for the Timber, but instead of the panic and headlong retreat to the Bluffs, he stays there. He knows Custer is somewhere and at some point will probably do "something" to support him. The Indians begin to accumulate and start to surround the place. Meanwhile, Benteen gets the note and comes at the same speed. Instead of a sobbing, whipped mob, he is able to see Reno fighting and at least appearing to hold his own. So he heads for Custer. The Indians soon perceive this as a real threat, and begin to draw away toward Custer/Benteen. The pressure now "off", Reno is able to continue his advance.
This assumes that Reno could have held out w/o heavy casualties for a time in the Timber. I recall some saying that it was a poor defensive area, but others saying it was pretty good. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - July 04 2004 : 3:01:41 PM
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How about a Heffeweizen on draft??!!
You got it mate.
recall some saying that it was a poor defensive area, but others saying it was pretty good.
If the books are to be believed it was a bend in the river---no way out and not a place to be with 1/2 an hours ammo.And as he saw no support coming he just had to make a break for it. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 04 2004 : 3:08:22 PM
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Boy, that must have been reassuring: knowing Custer was 'somewhere.' And might do 'something.' Really, relax.
Setting aside the known facts about Custer's past actions involving supporting others or giving a remote flying fungo bat about others, bear in mind that Reno had a better visual of Custer's situation than Custer. He could see the bluffs down for miles with unlikely closer crossing place than his own. He'd also gotten a good idea of the village and the numbers of Sioux.
Even supposed objective officers like Godfrey testified that he'd assumed Custer had had a fight and HEADED NORTH FOR TERRY. This doesn't speak to wide spread belief that Custer would support to his own possible detriment. That Reno held a similar prejudice is somehow viewed as a convenient excuse for him; in fact, everyone thought that's what happened, that Custer had had a fight and left.
And, in the unlikely event that we're to take Martin's note as an order written in fear (I don't), we're left with the testimony of Martin anyway. Here's a guy who left Custer and noted that Indians circled right in waving blankets and shooting, had evaded some shots himself, and meets Boston Custer. "Where's the General?" Oh, around the hill back there. Absent any warning or explanation. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 04 2004 : 11:08:22 PM
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When Martin met Boston, exactly what was he suppose to say. Two men are approaching each other on horse back at a rapid pace. When one yells out, "Where is the General?"
Martini replies in effect, "right behind me." Both men are on a vital mission, Martini to deliver a critical message to Benteen and, Boston to catch up with Custer's command. Martini did see Indians waving blankets but, he did not know that his horse had been shot in the flank until Benteen brought the matter to his attention. What warning or detailed explanation would he have offered? At that moment in time, Martini had no idea that everyone in Custer's command would soon be dead. Martini was not just, "a guy who left Custer", he was a soldier and messenger dispatched by Custer to accomplish an important mission. He retired from the military as a sergeant in good standing and, was proud that two of his sons enlisted also. |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on July 04 2004 11:15:21 PM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 05 2004 : 12:03:30 AM
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He could have said "He's right around the bend under attack." Of course, this is if his elderly recollections were true, given what he said to Benteen and everyone (the Indians are running) is somewhat different from what he says he saw (Reno under attack).
What 'vital' mission was Boston on? His very existence on the expedition was one of stupendous unimportance. Still, Benteen could assume he'd give Custer his bearings.
Martin arrived in 1874, and five years later by his own admission his English wasn't good at the Inquest, which led to some false conclusions. At the LBH he probably made Lorenzo sound like Hugh Grant and lord only knows what misinformation he inadvertently passed along. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on July 05 2004 12:04:46 AM |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - July 05 2004 : 08:18:53 AM
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And, in the unlikely event that we're to take Martin's note as an order written in fear (I don't),
So why unlikely DC?
All replys to "Calhoun Hill" |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - July 05 2004 : 10:16:37 AM
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I've said the order could easily be read as "Big Village, Yee-Haw! Hurry and bring everyone!"
Sure if Custer was using the same stuff as Reno was on. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 05 2004 : 11:39:08 AM
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| Apparently not, Wild. Both Weir and Benteen and others indicated they saw nothing terrifying about the note, especially when melded with Martin's description of the Indians running. Only when read after the fact does it seem ominous. It's not like "Big Village, Big Trouble, hurry with packs" was beyond Cooke's skill to write. I agree it sounds excited, but not scared. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 05 2004 : 10:07:06 PM
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| I agree, I too don't believe that Cooke was frightened, terrified, or beside himself. Such a perspective is a result of the fatalistic outcome of the battle. I do think he was excited. He was about to participate in a great mission, the subugation of the Plains Sioux and Cheyenne warriors; the "Who's who" of the government's most wanted. That excitement was exemplified by his, "bring the packs" followed by his post script, "bring the packs." I believe he meant to write, "bring the ammunition packs." Realizing his ommission, he attempted to correct the error but, only managed to repeat it. The fact that Weir did not make comment when Benteen handed him the note speaks volumes, he was a verified member of the "Custer Clan." |
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Correct Their Errors
