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inwit
Corporal
Status: offline |
 Posted - May 24 2004 : 4:40:05 PM
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The official story is that the Indians moved out on the 26th and the troops on Reno Hill knew knothing of Custer until the 27th when Terry arrived.
It is recorded that after the Indians left, the command changed its position on Reno Hill somewhat. (Besdide getting water, etc.)
My question is - was no scout or patrol sent out toward Custer's last known position on, say, the morning of the 27th? I find it hard to believe that with no Indians around Reno and Benteen would not have sought more information about the whereabouts of the rest of the command.
To me, the urgency to find out about Custer from Terry's men doesn't quite ring true. It seems to me (without historical evidence, I admit), that whole scene was a bit of "play acting."
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 24 2004 : 5:59:17 PM
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Well....how much time was there on the 26th to be sure it was safe to get water and then to water the stock as well as provide for the wounded? Not much, and it would require every available man. Watering the mules alone must have been a blast, what? Incrementally in theory, a mad rush in likely fact... Then, move away from the corpses. Night, and reasonably sure the Sioux will return.
Next morning, patrol, water, wounded and what time did Terry show up? Four miles to LSH across suspicious ground, but probably they would have found the bodies that day.
Kind of a stretch for scandal, isn't it? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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inwit
Corporal
Status: offline |
Posted - May 24 2004 : 6:28:44 PM
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Let's see:
No firing, no indians in sight, they can move their position and wounded, and they can get water without problem. The Indians retreated in the direction away from which Terry might be expected.
I find it hard to believe that someone didn't go to, say, Weir Point for a look-see. From there, if no Indians are present, why not look at the place where they knew a battle had occurred.
It just struck me as an interesting sideline for potential cross-examination at the Reno Court of Inquiry.
"Scandal" is in the eye of the beholder. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 24 2004 : 7:33:36 PM
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No Indians in sight? There's a sure sign of safety....
Again, how long did they have on the 26th to get this stuff done? They have no idea who stayed behind, or if it were a trick. They don't know there's no Indians around. They have to patrol carefully; they certainly cannot afford to lose an errant patrol.
And they're beat to hell, anyway. Days of forced march and twenty four hours of combat.
Get water without problem? Hello? Seen their position? And herding dehydrated mules and horses down to the LBH must have been a skip in the park with their inner child.
Custer's last known position is where they are now. Custer's last known direction was north. They heard firing, safe to assume dead horses and bodies up there somewhere. When we get organized we'll investigate. Plenty to do in the meanwhile, god knows. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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inwit
Corporal
Status: offline |
Posted - May 25 2004 : 1:48:10 PM
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I believe Terry's first men showed up late morning.
With over 300 men, it seems strange that a company or so was not sent downriver to see if a clue as to Custer's whereabouts could not be found. Or at least to proceed to Weir Point to take a look, and if there are no Indians to proceed farther downstream.
After all, on the 27th when they saw the dust cloud for Terry's approach, they sent troopers to determine if it was friend or foe approaching. |
Edited by - inwit on May 25 2004 1:48:51 PM |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 25 2004 : 2:45:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by inwit
I believe Terry's first men showed up late morning.
With over 300 men, it seems strange that a company or so was not sent downriver to see if a clue as to Custer's whereabouts could not be found. Or at least to proceed to Weir Point to take a look, and if there are no Indians to proceed farther downstream.
After all, on the 27th when they saw the dust cloud for Terry's approach, they sent troopers to determine if it was friend or foe approaching.
Besides having wounded and dehydrated men and horses to take care of, the survivors were not at all convinced the Indians were gone. From Major Reno's report, dated July 5:
"[They see the village leaving on the 26th...]. We now thought of Custer, of whom nothing had been seen and nothing heard since the firing in his direction about 6 p.m. on the eve of the 25th, and we concluded that the Indians had gotten [between] him and us, and driven him towards the boat at the mouth of the Little Big Horn River. The awful fate that did befall him never occurred to any of us as within the limits of possibility.
"During the night I changed my position in order to secure an unlimited supply of water and was prepared for their return, feeling sure they would do so, as they were in such numbers; but early in the morning of the 27th and while we were on the qui vive for Indians, I saw with my glass a dust some distance down the valley. There was no certainty for some time what they were, but finally I satisfied myself they were cavalry, and if so could only be Custer, as it was ahead of the time that I understood that General Terry could be expected.... [Reno called for volunteers, got three, who were] told to go as near as it was safe to determine whether the approaching column was white men, and to return at once in case they found it so; but if they were Indians to push on to General Terry."
What I find more interesting than a prospective trip back to Weir Point is that nobody went down into the valley to look for survivors from Reno's command. DeRudio & co. had just come in a few hours before, showing that people left behind could have survived down there all this time, and they would have known from the men of Herendeen's party that two men, at least, might still be in hiding somewhere in the valley.
That they did not attempt to explore the valley before Terry's dust was sighted at 9 a.m. is, I think, significant, and it gives some idea of how fearful they were of further attack. And this makes no mention of the 50 wounded and 300+ horses and mules they had to attend to while they enjoyed this respite from fighting (and who knew how long that would last).
R. Larsen
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inwit
Corporal
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Posted - May 25 2004 : 4:01:51 PM
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Ok, I guess I am just mistrustful of Reno's after-the-fact statements.
They had horses and mules that needed to drink, troopers were going back and forth from the river, survivors came up from the woods to the hilltop - the radius of 7th activity on the morning of the 27th was much wider than the top of Reno Hill.
If they can stand on Reno Hill looking at dust trials, and can go back and forth from the river, then it is very logical to extend the perimeter of the defense to the surrounding hills (sharpshooter ridge, etc.) to gain better defensive position and to gain greater information regarding the situation they were in.
The sun rose around 4 am, I just can't believe nobody rode out to the high ground for a better view.
Reno's 9 am has to be taken with a grain of salt, I believe Terry's scout (whats his name?) spoke of late morning. Either way, though, I can't believe they sat in the "bowl" atop Reno Hill. |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
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Posted - May 25 2004 : 5:32:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by inwit
Ok, I guess I am just mistrustful of Reno's after-the-fact statements.
Exactly what are you distrustful of? And based on what evidence?
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The sun rose around 4 am, I just can't believe nobody rode out to the high ground for a better view.
What is "the high ground" here? Weir Point?
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Reno's 9 am has to be taken with a grain of salt, I believe Terry's scout (whats his name?) spoke of late morning. Either way, though, I can't believe they sat in the "bowl" atop Reno Hill.
What's not to believe? We're only talking about a few hours. And why does Reno's time have to be taken with a grain of salt? What evidence is there that he was seriously off?
Again, if you want to make something of their failure to go ride off to Weir Point again, you first have to address why they didn't head back to Reno's battleground either. It was a much more obvious place to go to, since they knew from Herendeen's group that two men might still be hiding in the brush. Reno says he was fearful of Indians, and also had some problems with his own command to deal with, including strengthening their position. They had just endured a two-day siege, a lot of it dehydrated, and they still had more work to do with the animals and their defenses. Rescue missions --- for survivors of Custer's men or Reno's --- would have to wait a little.
R. Larsen
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inwit
Corporal
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Posted - May 25 2004 : 6:23:15 PM
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If troopers are taking the horses and mules to be watered, (along with water being brought up the hill for the men), then I would want to be sure there are no Indians around.
To take the horses and mules to the river means to backtrack on the trail to find a decent access point to the river. This means spreading the command out.
I just don't believe they would have done that if they thought 2,000 Indians could suddenly charge over Sharpshooter Ridge.
My point is that IF they scouted out the area before deploying manpower, then surely, once they saw there were no Indians in sight, they would have explored downstream. (Maybe Custer was holed up like they were).
If they knew Custer was dead, Reno and Benteen probably assumed that playing ignorant and acting like Custer abandoned THEM was the best approach in the inevitable cover-your-butt maneuvering.
Deploying men while having no idea what was just over the hill just doesn't ring true. |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 25 2004 : 7:32:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by inwit
If they knew Custer was dead, Reno and Benteen probably assumed that playing ignorant and acting like Custer abandoned THEM was the best approach in the inevitable cover-your-butt maneuvering.
Deploying men while having no idea what was just over the hill just doesn't ring true.
Ah: so this is your point. Conspiracy.....
First off, which "hill"? And which "deployments"? In his report, Reno mentions changing the Reno Hill defenses in order to secure an "unlimited" supply of water. How much exploration to make sure there were no Indians would this require?
And why wouldn't they scout out to Custer's field if they thought it was safe and they had the available men, even if they did know he was dead? What is the argument: that if they didn't, they somehow wouldn't be held culpable in the defeat? I'm trying to see the logic.
Furthermore, even if they "knew" Custer was dead, why would that prevent them from going back to Reno's battlefield and searching for survivors? If they were able to, in their judgment, why didn't they?
R. Larsen
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
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Posted - May 25 2004 : 10:02:45 PM
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Inwit, you ask a very good question regarding actions, or the lack thereof, on the morning of the 27th. Let me began by stating that the movement of the Indians during the night of the 25th., has ben responsible for the creation of the most predominant myth of the entire battle. The original village occupied an area of an approximate square mile. A portion of the camp had packed up and moved northwest down the valley prior to Reno's attack. The move was predicated on the need to find fresh game required for so immense a village. A secondary movement was initiated on the night of the 26th, in accordance of the Lakota custom of moving lodges to a new location upon the death of a family member. Thus the remnants of the post-battle village gave the impression of a camp perhaps twice its actual size.
The troops under General Terry and Col. Gibbon, approaching from the northern end of the secondary camp on June 27th., naturally assumed that they were traveling throug a single village. Two days later, when the united commands headed north, it was Reno's turn to cross the entire length of both camps.
During the night of the 25th, there was little sleep for the command. They were beaten, frightened, and exhausted. During the night there was naturally a great deal of speculation concerning Custer. I don't think that anyone, at the time, realized that he and his men had been wiped out. What actions were taken that night? Several Indian scouts were sent out with written messages. They were told to ride hard and, if one should fail, the other should go on. After a relatively, short time the scouts returned exclaiming their were to many Sioux. No soldier volunteered to go, one sergeant stated he would do so only if ordered. He was not ordered to go. Francis Kennedy (I)troop stated that "Captain Moylan was not seen from the time the fight on the bluffs started until after it finished." John Fox (D company) stated that Reno appeared to be intoxicated or partially so. An excerpt from Lt. Godfrey,: After all the firing had ceased the night of June 25th, reno planned to abandon the position, destroy property that could not be transported, mount all men who could ride and retreat. When asked what he would do with the wounded who could not ride, he said they would have to be abandoned.
With command officers cowering in the dark, intoxicated, and planning to leave the wounded behind, it is no wonder that no military action was taken on the 25th, the 26th, or the 27th. Had Terry not shown up when he did, one has to wonder how long Reno would have remained entrenched upon the bluffs. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 25 2004 : 11:16:06 PM
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So fifty odd lodges move because of battle death? No, fewer, because some of the deaths were Cheyenne.
And it was to find game that a portion of the village moved a short distance. Been easier to just go on slightly longer hunts, wouldn't it? How would that affect the number of lodge circles counted?
No soldier would volunteer to traverse land he didn't know at night under fire. Why bother? The scouts were paid to know the land. Nonetheless, given the village was only one square mile, these titans of stealth couldn't figure a way north at night through the encircling Sioux? There must have been considerable Sioux or the scouts weren't much, eh? They snuck out at night with their ponies through the lines and then returned through the lines? At what point did they discover too many Sioux for the journey?
They watched the village move out on the 26th. They seem to have had a good idea of the number of people in the village. Doesn't conform to the one square mile with regular lodge placement thesis, which allows the Indians to pretend to a smaller victorious force and the Custerphiles to point to betrayal/treason by Reno and Benteen, making both sides happy. Not necessarily true, though, and late developing only after other favored theories folded.
Also makes the failure to cross at MTC even less understandable.
Kennedy says he didn't see Moylan. So what?
Godfrey didn't witness the exchange between Benteen and Reno about the wounded; Benteen told him a long time later. We only have Benteen's word it happened. If you believe Benteen, you should believe him when he says that Reno wasn't drunk, since he'd know and he had worse on him. You can't have it both ways.
In any case, Reno didn't 'plan' to do that, he was considering his options and asked Benteen's opinion. By the by, Custer was hardly famous for going back for wounded. He abandoned men to their own devices, as with Elliot at the Wa****a. So for suggesting it, Reno is condemned by those who know Custer actually did it and won't blame him.
So here's a question. If the siege on the hill went on for another two days, at what point would you allow them to try and break out? Never, if they had to leave the wounded? It made sense for all of them to die? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - May 26 2004 : 04:12:21 AM
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Sometimes I’m absolutely amazed at the kind of “garbage” that can come from those who know the least and announce it in such a way as to sound all wise. It especially rings true when someone wants to point fingers and blame individuals for Custer’s defeat other than Custer himself. All this finger pointing takes place in the comfort of 20/20 hindsight.
I attempt to answer the first post in this thread in hopes I can stymie the conspiracy mind games taking place here.
If an attempt had been made on the 27th to find Custer, then that information would have come out in the long run. It is impossible to have had a movement north on the 27th without someone talking about it. So, you can rest assured that there was no cover-up.
Have you ever considered if there were attempts by someone to find Custer on the 27th and it didn’t happen that there were good reasons for it? There could’ve occurred a discussion between officers that went something like this…
Officer pointing north and speaking to Reno: “Sir, I am concerned about Custer’s fate. I’d like to have permission to take my company and move across that high point to locate him.”
Reno: “Why do you feel you need to do this?”
Officer: “We have not heard from him. I fear he could be in bad shape.”
Benteen: “And, you think we’re in good shape?”
Officer: “Well, no, we’re not…you’re correct, but…”
Reno: “Don’t you think Custer can take care of himself as we are doing?”
Officer: “Well, yes, he can, but, if I may sir, he could have a lot of wounded.”
Benteen: “And, we don’t have a lot of wounded? If you do find Custer and you find he has a lot of wounded, what do you propose we do?”
Reno: “Chances are good Custer has as many wounded, maybe more, as we do officer. Neither one of us can be doing much moving now as it is.”
Officer: “Sir, I must protest this lack of action…”
Reno: “Protest all you like officer. But, before you do, I’d like you to consider one important item. If you think it’s so damn important to link up with Custer, then ask yourself this simple question. ‘Why hasn’t Custer attempted to link up with us?’”
People blame Crook for Custer’s defeat because he didn’t communicate with Terry after the Rosebud fight. The same people don’t seem bothered with the fact that Terry didn’t attempt to communicate with Crook about the information they had about the Indians and especially the important plan they devised on June 21.
People fault Reno for not coming to Custer’s assist on the afternoon of June 25th yet they don’t blame Custer for not attempting to link back up with Reno after the debacle at Medicine Tail Ford.
Now, we have this imaginary conspiracy and, again, faulting Reno for not attempting to find Custer on the 27th.
Absolutely amazing – a true sign of not fully understanding the situation of June 25-27, 1876.
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Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
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inwit
Corporal
Status: offline |
Posted - May 26 2004 : 11:30:12 AM
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Sadly, some of you have remedial thinking skill. A prime example is bhist. But rather than trade blows with the defenseless, I'll simply prove my point.
Gibbon, in an article for The American Catholic Quarterly from April 1877, says the following about seeing Weir Point on the approach to the battle site on June 27th:
"In front of the stream after cutting into the bluffs crossed the valley from right to left, the timber shutting out all view beyond, save above its top appeared a sharp mountain peak, on the edges of which could now and then be indistinctly made out a few moving figures ***.
again:
"I had observed on the peak before spoken of, and opposite which the advanced guard had now arrived, three horsemen evidently observing our movements and watching us closely."
and still:
"*** until they culminated in the sharp peak referred to in my description of the previous day, upon which we had seen objects at a great distance down the valley."
The men on Weir point included Lieutenants Hare and Wallace.
So Reno did send men to the high ground for further intelligence.
And so, they did go to the high ground on the 27th (and early if Gibbon could see them "at a great distance down the valley." Given the documented fact that many officers in the 7th had field glasses, is it a stretch to assert they turned them on the Custer battle site. With no Indians in sight, nobody rode downstream?
What does this prove? With a slow examination of the evidence and the inferences arising from it, one can slowly put together a tapestry allowing larger inferences to be made.
It's just a piece in the larger picture.
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Edited by - inwit on May 26 2004 11:45:08 AM |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 26 2004 : 12:58:40 PM
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Would these be the same three men whom Major Reno in his report mentions sending to find out who was making all the dust?
This is your big-time revelation? Well, I expected as much. Old news --- stuff nobody ever conspired to suppress, because there was nothing to suppress. You can infer all you like, which is pretty much what you'll have to do, since Gibbon's article doesn't "prove" anything.
By the way, how do you know Wallace and Hare were two of the three men?
quote:
It's just a piece in the larger picture.
It's a piece of something all right.
R. Larsen
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inwit
Corporal
Status: offline |
Posted - May 26 2004 : 1:28:28 PM
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Anon does his best to confuse the issue:
- Reno sent people into the valley to find out who was making the dust. You admit that Reno saw the dust. Maybe those on Weir Point told him about the dust?
- The argument had been made (repeatedly) that it made no sense for Reno to send out any scouts or patrols for further intelligence. Needless to say Anon fails to reference that.
It is legitimate, based on the above, to deny any inference that it is unlikely that Reno and Benteen were really completely ignorant of Custer's fate, but it is inexcuseable to be completely ignore evidence and potential inferences arising therefrom.
But take heart, Anon - it isn't a crime to be stupid. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 26 2004 : 2:07:43 PM
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You could see Terry's dust from Reno Hill, which apparently sparked sending out riders. Where does Gibbon use the term "Weir Point?"
At no time has it been said by anyone that "it made no sense for Reno to send out any scouts or patrols for any intelligence." It made no sense to look for Custer, given other pressing issues, but they needed to be aware of any approaching Sioux. Again, it's not like they had lots of day time between the village being in the distance late that afternoon and Terry's arrival the next morning. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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inwit
Corporal
Status: offline |
Posted - May 26 2004 : 2:13:06 PM
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- It made no sense to try to renuite the 7th?
- It made no sense to seek further orders from your commanding officer?
- Perhaps Custer was pinned down and needed their help.
There were a lot of reasons to look for Custer. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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inwit
Corporal
Status: offline |
Posted - May 26 2004 : 3:36:40 PM
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| Incidentially, the two hills now known as "Weir Point" didn't have that name yet in 1877. So Gibbon could not have refered to "Weir Point." |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 26 2004 : 4:36:30 PM
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Inwit has ducked another chance to back up his claims. How do you know Wallace and Hare were two of the riders?
And why didn't Reno explore the valley for survivors, if you think he had all this time to scout out the country?
And why doesn't your tin-foil hat conspiracy theory make any sense? If Reno did scout out Custer's location on the 27th, why conceal it? How could it make him look bad? "There's Reno, dropping everything -- wounded, horses, defenses -- to search for Custer. What a great guy."
I don't "admit" that Reno saw the dust. He says so himself. At the Court of Inquiry he said he saw it about 9 o'clock. You find some huge significance in the sighting of this dust that is not apparent to me (or, I'd hazard, to anyone else).
No one has claimed that it made no sense for Reno to send out patrols, that I know of. He just had other things to do, and made the decision to do those first.
You have no evidence that Reno knew that Custer and his men were dead. Just wild flights of fancy, which you heroically call "inferences".
R. Larsen
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 26 2004 : 6:52:56 PM
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| Bhist, you remind me of a little diddy I heard a long time age. It involved an amusing tale were a loud and arrogant kettle insisted on calling the pot black. Your reference to "Garbage", was exemplified by your tirade against those whose opines differ fron you,it was nauseating. As it obviously sickens you to hear of any view point wherein, as in life, there are many reasons for an event to occurr; conversely, it is as sickening to hear uninformed individuals shout it was ALL of Custer's fault. Some of the responses to inwit's excellent question were honest attempts seek honest answers. There have been specific studies concerning the psychological effects of combat on soldiers for quite sometime now. Modern studies by J. Baynes, S.L.A. Marshall, and others refer to the type of mental debilitation that occurred on the night of the 25th, on Reno's bluff. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 26 2004 : 7:01:45 PM
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We all know that, Inuit. I'm wondering how we know he's describing Weir Point beyond all doubt. From the river bottom, perhaps Sharpshooter has more of a mountainish quality. Not, of course, that it matters in the least.
Varnum says they waited till nightfall on the 26th before making their move. Terry's dust is sighted on the 27th at 9AM. In the five hours, maybe six, available I think what they accomplished was pretty damned good and certainly not worthy of condemnation because they didn't leap off after Custer.
And if they had found Custer on LSH surrounded still and firing, what portion of the command should have then been assigned to join/rescue/die with him, and what portion to defend the wounded and packs? What number of Indians would be low enough to allow a yet further division in the face of the enemy? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 27 2004 : 6:06:53 PM
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Wiggs, you're lapsing towards self-parody. Bhist's post was one of the sanest this board has seen in days.
R. Larsen
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - May 27 2004 : 6:44:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
There have been specific studies concerning the psychological effects of combat on soldiers for quite sometime now. Modern studies by J. Baynes, S.L.A. Marshall, and others refer to the type of mental debilitation that occurred on the night of the 25th, on Reno's bluff.
You need to do your homework. S.L.A. Marshall was a fraud (not even his real name). No one can use his data because most of it was made-up from his own warped mind.
This is a whole other subject -- because Marhsall's work is fraudulent and cannot be used, Richard Fox needs to rewrite some of his book since he depended so much on Marshall.
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Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
Edited by - bhist on May 27 2004 6:48:35 PM |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 27 2004 : 7:25:26 PM
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| Dear Bob, I don't mean to be argumentive with you. Have you produced a publish work? If not, why not? Could you e-mail the documentation confirming Marshall to be a fraud. Such a deflamatory statement must be supported on facts. Was there any reason you omitted Banyes? Was he too a fraud. Fox's usage of the two sources was minimal and, therefore, does not the whole pie make. Is it possible that your conclusion that Fox needs to rewrite some of his book is based upon the same gaseous mixture as your earlier statement. |
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Aftermath Question
