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Anonymous Poster6298
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 Posted - September 16 2003 : 3:44:50 PM
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Poll Question:
What might have happened if Reno made an atempt to join custer from Weir point?
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
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Posted - September 17 2003 : 3:29:39 PM
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I don't know how to answer this poll, since its not clear if Custer's battalion was destroyed before the actual move to Weir Point, or if the poll leaves the possibility of Reno/Benteen heading north as soon as Benteen arrived...
If the second one part is considered, I think its possible Custer's battalion would have been intact and a different battle would have played out. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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Anonymous Poster6293
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Posted - September 17 2003 : 7:51:20 PM
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| Good point. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
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Posted - September 17 2003 : 7:54:01 PM
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I don't know how to answer the poll either, since it's so general. Anything MIGHT have happened.
It's not realistic to suppose that Reno's men were in shape to ride north under any circumstances, or what percentage actually had horses, or what shape the horses were in, and how fast 'ride' the four miles plus, and do they wait for the train?
To me, it's more interesting to inquire:
What action after Reno's retirement to Reno Hill might have instigated a better finish.
1. An immediate advance north to battle by Reno and Benteen
2. An immediate retreat by Custer to Reno Hill.
3. A reinvigorated attack at both ends of the village
4. Custer rides north to Terry and brings them all cavalry and mounted units south on the 26th.
5. Unconditional surrender |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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frankboddn
Major
USA
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Posted - September 17 2003 : 9:54:17 PM
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I've posted on this subject a couple times, but can't remember where, so if I repeat myself, tough. I mean, bear with me. Sorry. If Benteen would've "ridden to the sound of the firing" in an attempt to relieve Custer, we would've had three Last Stand Hills: Custer's LSH, wherever Benteen would've been caught between Weir Point and Custer, and maybe Reno Hill. The only ones to maybe survive would've been Reno. And the only reason he would've survived had Custer and Benteen been wiped out is because the Indians would've retired for the evening, celebrated their huge victory and headed for the hills the next day. I can only think of one way Custer could've won the day, and that's if he hadn't split his command into thirds, had sent Benteen and Reno to charge the village, and he did what he did. Of course, competent reconaisance and info was also missing. Had Benteen and Reno ridden through the valley, the breakup of the numbers of warriors might've been different, and Custer would've been facing fewer and he could've made it across MTC into the village and driven south and met up with Reno and Benteen, because the village might've fled had Reno made it through the village. But even then, even if their charges hadn't worked exactly like that, they might've been able to meet up and put up a good defense until Terry arrived. Having said that, I still contend, though, thaton that day, at that time, there were too many damned Indians (I say that with all due respect) for the 7th to handle. Also, these Indians were there to stand and fight. They were flush from their victory over Crook and just weren't in a fleeing kind of mood. So despite all the coulda, shoulda, might'ves and what ifs, there were just too many Indians. That's it. |
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Anonymous Poster5809
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Posted - September 17 2003 : 11:47:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by frankboddn
I can only think of one way Custer could've won the day, and that's if he hadn't split his command into thirds, had sent Benteen and Reno to charge the village, and he did what he did.
"I think had the regiment gone in as a body, and from the woods from which I fought advanced upon the village, its destruction was certain. But he was fully confident they were running away, or he would not have turned from me..." -- Major Reno 5 July 1876 |
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frankboddn
Major
USA
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Posted - September 18 2003 : 03:20:38 AM
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 Several of you have posted some interesting thoughts on Weir Point and LSH, I think Dark Cloud and Larsen. I came across a forum message board you all might be interested in. I don't want to divert anyone from this board, but if you want other input, try this one. I tried to attach it, but couldn't. It's the Delphi Boards, one called The Last Stand at The Greasy Grass; 1876. |
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Anonymous Poster4403
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Posted - September 18 2003 : 07:02:49 AM
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I'll assume you mean Reno/Benteen moving to assist.
My guess is that Reno's men were probably too roughly handled by then to be of much use in offensive operations and such an advance to help Custer would have been a half-hearted affair doomed to failure. |
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frankboddn
Major
USA
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Posted - September 18 2003 : 12:58:42 PM
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Anonymous, you quoted Reno as saying had they charged as a regiment, "its destruction was certain." That's a little ambiguous in just that short quote. Whose destruction was certain: the 7th's or the Indians? Had the entire 7th attacked from the valley, OR had Benteen and Reno attacked together from the Valley and Custer kept his word and not chickened out at MTC and been able to cross into the village and join up with Reno, what would've happened? We'll never know. By the way, when I say Custer "chickened out," I guess I get tired of hearing all the allegations of Reno abandoning his charge and forming his skirmish line and taking all the blame, and yet no one seems to question why Custer didn't continue across MTC. How many Indians did he face there? We don't know if it was GAC who was shot at MTC, but if it wasn't, why didn't he cross? There weren't that many warriors there, were there? The more I babble, the more questions arise: Custer was known for his reckless, heroic charges during the Civil War, yet stopped in his tracks at MTC. Why? Maybe this gives credence to the fact that it was he who was wounded at MTC and that's what stopped the attack; his commanders under him simply didn't follow through. Kinda like the Cheyenne losing Roman Nose at Beecher Island. He was killed; battle over. So Custer was seriously wounded--I think it was said either wound he sustained was or could have been a mortal one--so that ended the efffort to cross at MTC. Yeah, okay. I just figured it out. End of discussion. Don't bring it up again. |
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Anonymous Poster2321
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Posted - September 20 2003 : 11:52:20 PM
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It's more likely the battle was over at Beecher Island when the 10th Cavalry was discovered approaching. Given that Forsythe's Scouts existed for exactly four months, four days of which were spent horseless on a sandbar, and accomplished nothing EXCEPT the killing of Roman Nose, it has become much larger than it probably was. Really, it's hard to read too little into Beecher Island. The natives would have loved to starve out the crew to get those nifty rifles, and absent the 10th, could have.
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pjsolla
Major
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Posted - October 11 2003 : 01:47:07 AM
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| Someone posed a question to me regarding Weir Point and I don't have an answer. Was there a "road" going thru Weir Point as there is now, or was this one massive peak or point. In other words, did the NPS blow a road thru to Reno Hill and this is not the way it was on 6/25/76? |
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vet777a
Sargent
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Posted - October 11 2003 : 12:58:15 PM
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pjsolla: If I remember correctly the road pretty much follows the terrain. Up and down and around without much excavating of the environment. There is one small area just North of Weir point where part of a bluff is blasted away and the road turns west. Then it winds down and around to MTC. I can send you a picture to your e-mail if you are interested.
vet777a |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
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Posted - October 11 2003 : 1:52:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by pjsolla
Someone posed a question to me regarding Weir Point and I don't have an answer. Was there a "road" going thru Weir Point as there is now, or was this one massive peak or point. In other words, did the NPS blow a road thru to Reno Hill and this is not the way it was on 6/25/76?
Yes, they blasted to get the road through there. Weir Point was one long ridge at the time of the battle. |
Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
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pjsolla
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - October 11 2003 : 3:13:26 PM
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| I assumed the cut wasn't there on 6/25/76 but really didn't know. Judging from your answers I shall accept the fact that it was not, in fact, there. Though Vet777a's answer appears that he feels no excavation was done at Weir Point but North. And thanks for the offer of a pic Vet777a but I have several of the area. So Vet777a, is it your opinion that the road "was" there on 6/25/76? Or have I misinterpreted your answer? |
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vet777a
Sargent
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Posted - October 11 2003 : 4:11:03 PM
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| pjsolla: I may not of made myself clear. There was no road there on 6/25/76. Perhaps a game trail or Pony trail. I think the NPS did a great job when building the road as it conforms to the terrain quite well except for the place that I mentioned which is North of Weir Point as it desends down. Bhist is probably the expert here. But, I also think there was some blasting for the road very near where Farrier Vincent Charly's marker is located. As I stood on Weir Point and looked towards the monument I could clearly see the trees at the National Cemetery. I know they were not there in '76', but, with field glasses I can not understand why Weir could not see what was happening with Custer. Unless, by the time frame, it was all over. I wonder what he did see. I wonder what drove him to drink and what caused his death only six months later. |
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pjsolla
Major
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Posted - October 11 2003 : 4:24:57 PM
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| Thanks for the clarification! |
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pgb3
Private
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Posted - October 11 2003 : 4:25:28 PM
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| PJ and folks: Weir Point has always—well, at least since ’76—two actual “peaks”. The NPS did not blow a hole through it for the road. If you read Edgerly’s account, he notes Weir going up on one of the two points, while he took the company down between the two points and started into the coulee. But, anyway, the natural feature was not bisected for the road. The long ridge bhist must be thinking about is Sharpshooter Ridge. |
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pgb3
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Posted - October 11 2003 : 4:28:55 PM
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quote:
I wonder what he did see. I wonder what drove him to drink and what caused his death only six months later.
Weir had a very long history of alcohol abuse it seems. Whatever “drove him to drink” had done so long before the LBH. |
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pjsolla
Major
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Posted - October 11 2003 : 4:29:07 PM
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| Vet777a: Maybe what Weir did see was enough to tell him, "we gotta get to Custer". By the time he did initiate a movement, it was too late. It may have haunted him that he "might" have saved the remainder of the command had he not hesitated. But, this is all hindsight. Who knows what happened mentally to Weir. We can only summize. |
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pjsolla
Major
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Posted - October 11 2003 : 4:32:11 PM
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PGB3: Thanks. Now I am totally confused about the road.
And insofar as Weir goes. I guess the Custer incident may have pushed him over the top. Somethng always does. |
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vet777a
Sargent
Status: offline |
Posted - October 11 2003 : 5:30:38 PM
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quote:
[quote]Originally posted by pjsolla
Vet777a: Maybe what Weir did see was enough to tell him, "we gotta get to Custer". By the time he did initiate a movement, it was too late.
Thats why I was wondering about the time frame. I have read that Weir was on the peak anywhere from 3pm to 5pm. All from different books. If he thought "we gotta get to Custer", then I believe 5pm is too late. Don't be confused about the road. There are two peaks and a coulee between. Vicent Charly was killed in the coulee. There does not appear to be a evidence of major blasting there just perhaps some convenient bulldozing for a vehicle turn-out to park. |
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vet777a
Sargent
Status: offline |
Posted - October 11 2003 : 5:42:46 PM
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| Oh heck! Its only 920 miles from my home in Albuquerque to the Battlefield. If I leave by 6pm I can be there by 930am. Then we can settle the 'blasting' issue as I parlay my findings to all. My wife always thinks I over-react. |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 11 2003 : 6:04:33 PM
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| Its 970 miles from my house. I'll meet you there, I'll just leave an hour earlier... |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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frankboddn
Major
USA
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Posted - October 11 2003 : 7:05:56 PM
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What drove Weir to drink? I've been reading Sklenar's book this week, and seems like he mentioned that when Custer made his famous AWOL run to check up on Libby, it was supposedly because of an outbreak of some disease. Sklenar says there were rumors that Custer heard that Weir and his Libby were either having a thing, or that Weir had written her some suggestive letters, which drove GAC crazy. Someone told me today GAC gave Weir a good throttling. As to what made Weir drink? Could it be inrequited love of Libby? Serving her husband and he was in love with her and couldn't have her? Was it guilt for not having ridden to try to rescue Custer? I don't know.??? |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 11 2003 : 10:54:40 PM
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But I thought Weir was part of the Custer Clan, so to speak. So if he had any problems with Custer because of Libby, it certainly didn't leave any festering wounds. I've always thought of Weir's desire to immediately move north as not only a dedicated soldier's call to duty but also as a friend being concerned for the wellbeing of another friend. And he certainly didn't do well after finding out what happened to Custer two days later.
I watched a show on a local semi-religious channel about the Custer coverup. It basically spoke of the lack of a formal investigation, the blatant lies and changed stories at the Reno Inquiry, and the possibility that Weir's death from "melancholia" was actually a case of foul play. They checked for telegrams and formal documents concerning, during and after the 1876 Sioux campaign, and there's very few in the government archives, which they thought was strange. I wished I had taped it, but I was channel surfing and saw a somewhat familiar black and white picture, and I stopped and realized what it was about.
https://secure.etln.com/grizzlyadams/vdoenctr.html#custer
I believe that's the show I watched, but the description makes it sound rather ridiculous. But I was rather impressed with the show, it wasn't looney tunes out there conspiracy theory stuff. It just posed questions as to a lot of the things about the battle and the aftermath that don't add up, like the lack of government documents concerning the fight, the Reno and Benteen stories that suddenly changed at the COI, and the fact that Weir, one of the few Custer supporters at the battle who survived and someone with possibly privileged information, conveniently passed away before the COI. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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Weir Point
