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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - February 25 2005 : 02:48:41 AM
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Warlord--
Now that's better! As for Eliza Brown and the Mary/Sarah (?) Adams sisters, I've maintained that any rumour perpetrated by Captain Benteen (though I grudingly admire him in battle) requires corrobative evidence. Since there ain't any, other than Ben Clark's Meotzie recollections, I stop the "cooks' tales" at the door. Now, I can, with some authority, go into details of GAC's adventurous intimate life, though not his imagined (uhh, would anybody really want to?) one ... I'll keep it to the "Meotzie Mania" thread.
BTW--I harbour little respect for Russell Means ...
As for movies, at the recommendation of others, I sat through the first thirty minutes of "The Last Samurai." Yikes! Amazing how Tom Cruise's character not only survived Custer's battalion, but he made it to San Francisco by July, 1876, and bustled to Japan in record time! The history was so bad, I ignored the rest of the film ... |
movingrobe |
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whistlingboy
Lieutenant
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 26 2005 : 08:14:43 AM
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During the Yellowstone Expedition in 1873, when the 7th Cavalry served under General David Stanley, Custer and Stanley's 'at odds' relationship came to a head when Custer was arrested by Stanley and was made to ride at the rear of the column for two days for allowing a civilian correspondent the use of a government horse. The civilian, of course, was Fred Calhoun, Jimmi's brother.
Has anyone read what regiment Fred Calhoun was eventually a member of and when he joined up?
William Taylor in his book "With Custer on The Little Bighorn" states: "Mrs. James Calhoun had the good fortune to obtain possession of her husband's watch through the efforts of her brother-in-law Lt. Calhoun, who purchased it from some Indians in the Department of the Platte."
I was just curious if it might have been before the death of his brother, Jimmi, or after his demise. I would have thought that he might have wanted to 'ride' with his brother.
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 27 2005 : 08:48:58 AM
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Whistlingboy, Heitman has this for Frederic Sanscay Calhoun.
Born in Ohio, appointed as an officer from Dakota. He served as a private from 5/12/1864-8/19/1864 in B company, 137 Ohio Infantry. Appointed as 2Lt. in the 14 Infantry 3/10/1875. Promoted to 1Lt. 12/3/1886. Retired 5/6/1890.
Hope that helps answer your question.
Billy |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 27 2005 : 10:10:09 AM
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| As I recall, Custer tried desperately to get James Calhoun's brother into the 7th, apparently feeling he didn't have enough friends. Fred Calhoun also oversaw Crazy Horse's murder, didn't he? Coincidently, of course. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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whistlingboy
Lieutenant
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 27 2005 : 10:12:18 AM
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Thanks Billy. Seems kind of odd that he would be on 'duty' in the Department of the Platte territory, being in the Ohio Infantry, if in fact he was on duty when he ran across his brother's watch, which he supposedly gave to Maggie. Thanks for taking the time to find that.
W'boy |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 02 2005 : 6:19:55 PM
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Warlord--
Funny how it seems the socialist feminist has shut you up (well, in regards to moi) ... but I do have to agree with you that I don't believe Custer was fatally injured at MTC. That said, however, I do have continuing problems with GAC's offensive posture to the north of the ford, and further from any support, unless he truly was going after Ford D and hostages ...
Hoka hey! |
movingrobe |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 03 2005 : 01:59:41 AM
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Warlord--
Interesting post--I rented "Big Fish" over the weekend. Am a big fan of Tim Burton ("Batman," "Edward Scissorhands," "The Nightmare Before Christmas")--I do, in my darkest moments, wonder how he'd interpret the Autie Custer story. Would he portray him as an Indian-killing nut or as a well-thought out, but emotionally torn and therefore tragic leader? He'd (Burton) definately be attracted to the dark side of the legend ... hehehe ... also recorded "Seventh Cavalry" over the weekend ...
Hope I'm not one of dem trolls ... I'm a believer (though I'm sick of yakking about it) that GAC received the chest wound first, rolled around the summit of LSH coughing up blood (hence the blood found around his mouth) as he slowly but surely bled out--his only relief--if it came at all--came in the form of a mercy shot (the save a bullet for your wife, etc., excuse) to the left temple. Whether the head wound came from Tom, Bos (that's who my money is on--no evidence, just a hunch, thank you), Harry Reed or Yates, I haven't a real clue. All I know is that, for the most part, George Armstrong Custer went unmutilated, which probably means he was dead, dead, dead before the end of the battle--as opposed to Tom. Gack--did I imply Custer was a coward? I didn't mean it! I believe he was brave til the end--and that it was only someone else's concern for their LTC that led to the final, awful decision.
As the majority of us don't believe that GAC got whupped or even injured at MTC (I believe Michno has him waiting on Luce-Cartwright Ridge), we all need to consider what offensive opportunities presented themselves to the master of the cavalry charge. What could be gained with a northward movement? Were there any specific objectives? Hostages, ponies, a block to any northward-heading Indians?
Regards, |
movingrobe |
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hunkpapa7
Lieutenant
United Kingdom
Status: offline |
Posted - March 03 2005 : 05:54:24 AM
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I am going to try and read this whole section tonight,and if this question has been asked,or answered please forgive.
Q;when Martin arrived with the order for Benteen,and after his response "skedadiling"what was Weirs response at that time having read and heard ?
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wev'e caught them napping boys
Aye Right ! |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - March 03 2005 : 06:45:00 AM
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| About the shots, there was no burning signs around both wounds, this seems to exclude he was shot from a near point. Why did'nt he could have tryed to reach a higher point while other troops going down? Could'nt be possible that he ment to act as in Wa****a battle where he had gone on a knoll to direct the battle? |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - March 03 2005 : 08:23:45 AM
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Hunkpapa
From memory.Benteen showed the order to Weir who made no comment. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - March 03 2005 : 09:33:25 AM
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What could be gained with a northward movement? Were there any specific objectives? Hostages, ponies, a block to any northward-heading Indians?
MRW
Situation report at 4.00 25th June 1876.
1/Custer has failed to find a crossing point
2/Custer command is strung out over 1/2 a mile
3/Custer knows Reno has been defeated
4/There is no sign of his reserves
5/All surprise is gone and Indians are massing between him and the village
6/Custer makes his last and fatal mistake of an appallingly inept offensive.He turns and runs.
We saw what happened to Reno when he ran.The Indians closed in for the kill.Exactly the same thing happened to Custer.If when he saw there was no chance to attack he had massed his rifles in some sort of a defensive position at least he could have had his last stand.What in fact occured was his last race.
To those who contend that Custer fought rearguard and holding actions I would ask how in heaven's name did he control all these movements when his command was so spread out? By telepathy ?
If I do no more that dispell the notion that there was anything like a last stand [with the possible exception of Calhoun and Keogh]I will have justified the space I use on this board .
DC preaches and not without justification that the defeated tend to overstate the strenght and ability of the victors.The myth of the LS would be covered by this syndrome.It is an attempt to rescue the honor of the US armed forces from ignominy.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 03 2005 : 2:21:09 PM
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Ryan, who buried him, said both wounds were on the right side.
There's no evidence it was a lung shot. Most reports - and hard to say which are true - just say on left side, although some say chest. Could have been beneath the rib cage. Bodies bloat, and it might be hard to tell. No, I don't believe Custer didn't succumb to nature in those three days like some say. The variations in the story about desecration or not suggest they were trying to pat it into shape for the family and the agreed upon story got messed up.
But for my point, it's possible the left side wound wasn't all that immediately fatal. He got wounded and that's why they ended up where they did. No possible proof, but it is in keeping with what we know of Custer and his kin and explains the otherwise bizarre decisions to no rational point. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - March 03 2005 : 2:29:58 PM
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He died with all his holes in the front fighting the enemy, thats about the best any soldier or warrior can hope to do
He could have been just as brave and have died from a shot in the back.
The best any soldier can hope for is a fighting chance and in this Custer's leadership failed abysmally.The real heros of the LBH battle were Reno and Benteen.They gave their men a fighting chance.All the heroics were on Reno Hill.
Comparing Isandlwana/Rourke's Drift with the LSH/Reno Hill,the Brits downplay the main action at Isandlwana in preference for the heroics at Rourke's drift.While the Americans downplay the heroics at Reno Hill for the desaster at LSH.There is as much material for heroics at Reno Hill as there is at Rourke's Drift.At Reno Hill the defenders were out gunned unlike the defenders at Rourke's drift.At least an extra 200 carbines and ammo had fallen into the hands of the Indians.Benteen's 3 companies alone suffered suffered 32 casualties. To inflict that number of casualties on dug in troops must have required thousands of incoming.Reno's position was under attack for far longer than Rourke Drift with no respite.From a morale point the defenders at Rourke's Drift knew that they only had to hold on and support would arrive.The defenders of Reno Hill had no such consulation knowing as they did that the only force within range was the weak and slow moving infantry of Terry.
Reno Hill can stand along side Rourke's Drift.The doughty fighting qualities of the 7th cavalry trooper are in evidence here and there is no need to cover Custer's butt by fabricating a myth of a last stand .
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - March 03 2005 : 2:47:30 PM
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Ryan, who buried him, said both wounds were on the right side.
There are three myths.
1/Custer fought a gallant last stand
2/He was the last man to fall
3/He was not mutilated.
and if you believe any of that then you can believe he was abducted by aliens and that he and Elvis have now teamed up. |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 03 2005 : 3:57:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by wILD I
Ryan, who buried him, said both wounds were on the right side.
There are three myths.
1/Custer fought a gallant last stand
2/He was the last man to fall
3/He was not mutilated.
and if you believe any of that then you can believe he was abducted by aliens and that he and Elvis have now teamed up.
Kind of right on. I heard somewhere way back that Libbie's long, long widowhood set the discussion of LBH back fifty years? Truly the mouse who roared ...
Regards,
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movingrobe |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 03 2005 : 5:32:44 PM
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Custer held out to the last, standing firm and firing away as all around him fell?
Right. In the movies, aka Errol Flynn.
I will be hard to convince that Custer wasn't the first, or one of the first, casualties in the assault. That's no slam on Custer, who would have been right where a cavalry commander is expected to be--at the front of the column.
Against so thoroughly an overwhelming force of Indians, I cannot picture an organized retreat to Last Stand Hill. Rather, I see a confused, if not panicked, backpeddling of scattered troopers. Looking at the battlefield, even an untrained eye can see an almost complete absence of organization on the part of the troopers and, therefore, most likely an absence of chain of command. This thing only took 30-40 minutes, for Pete's sake. The column MUST have been broken up and wiped out piecemeal. Any organized resistance at all would have, at the very least, extended the length of the battle, possibly even a few hours. |
Bob Bostwick |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 03 2005 : 6:26:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Heavyrunner
Custer held out to the last, standing firm and firing away as all around him fell?
Right. In the movies, aka Errol Flynn.
I will be hard to convince that Custer wasn't the first, or one of the first, casualties in the assault. That's no slam on Custer, who would have been right where a cavalry commander is expected to be--at the front of the column. [Any resistance] at all would have, at the very least, extended the length of the battle, possibly even a few hours.
I can agree with you that GAC wasn't anywhere near the last to go down. But at the same time, there wasn't necessarily a target on his back--in the sense that the NAs had no clue who they were fighting, therefore rendering the addage of revenge on Yellowhair a moot point. I realize this is the area where gut hunches about the commander's personality come into full view. And though I'll continue to believe in the possibility of a friendly-fire type of euthanasia, I do not see Custer as a coward.
As for your theory of the success of an organised resistance, I'll have to ponder that--especially given the KNOWN paradigms of circumstance. I'm assuming that Reno leads his "charge" up the hill, Benteen remains with Reno, and the packers are kept at the entrenchment site. I don't see, given the limited ammo and number of Indians, "hours" could have been saved, staiving off the eventual end. But there was a successful resistance--at the Reno-Benteen site. Okay, you win.
But like you, I see the action upon and towards LSH an unmitigated, unorganised cluster-fluck of desperation ...
Regards, |
movingrobe |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 04 2005 : 01:12:59 AM
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Actually, I was the "first" to coin the term Custerfluck ... hoped to visit Monroe a million years ago, but instead chose (and rightly so) to tour LBH. And thus the fatal fascination began ... darn it!
Though there is that mythical blond-blonde connection, I have always thought that GAC's chest wound "bled out" in a manner not unlike the wounds suffered by Princess Diana in 1997. Apparently, she suffered a tear and consequential hemorrage to either her main artery or vein (can't remember which)and slowly suffocated on the pooling of her own blood. It took a couple of hours. Didn't Eric Von Schmidt portray an on his knees and crawling Custer, suffering the effects of that initial wound? Every breath Custer takes, for some reason, gets shallower and shallower. He can't seem to get enough oxygen--as a result, his orders become whispers ... ain't that the deal? He coughs and coughs--his spittle becomes brilliant red ... The now destroyed mythology about an insurmountable and indestructive Custer destroys whatever morale was remaining. If still alive, Yates and Fresh are horrified. Somewhere between Armstrong's death and Tom's eventual take down, Bos and Autie Reed tear down the hill. Were they released by either of their relatives?
I agree with you. I'm guessing that the head wound was, well, kind of immediately fatal ... hehehe ... and I personally think that the wound was rendered in hopes to avoid the consequences of losing to the angry, mutilation-happy Indians. I know that there are theories that the Indians went around and shot those who weren't quite "dead." But why the heck bother? We all know how Tom turned out ... or inside out ... yuck.
Oh yeah, and Armstrong's body was found at complete peace, as if "sleeping." Give me a break! Libbie ...? Sorry for the rampant Romanticism, but all that post-MTC movement is theory, theory, theory. And I'm tossing my stuff to the four winds ...
Regards y'all-- |
movingrobe |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 04 2005 : 1:55:30 PM
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Custer's decision making and command style have often been in question. However, his bravery never has. I don't know whether it's been brought up or discussed, but here's another idea:
Perhaps Last Stand Hill was where a group of troopers/officers brought their wounded commander, surrounding him in defense. Such a scenario that would certainly follow an element of military tradition, not to mention valor. The Indians, of course, would have wiped them out because they were there, regardless of any knowledge about Yellow Hair. |
Bob Bostwick |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 07 2005 : 3:12:50 PM
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Warlord, I'm not sure I follow you. For the record, I carry no philosophy regarding the battle. I do, however, have perceptions from what I've read and from viewing the battle site several times. Over the course of discussion here, the possibility occurred to me that a group of officers and men could very well have rallied to their disabled or mortally wounded commander. It also appears very possible to me that they could have stood in defense of his lifeless body.
Speculation, to be sure, but worth discussing. |
Bob Bostwick |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - March 07 2005 : 9:26:46 PM
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When one reflects upon the horrific exposure to the "elements" the exposed troopers were subjected to on Custer's ridge, one must ask the immortal question; with hundreds of arrows falling from the sky and, a heated barrage of Indian bullets striking every square inch of battlefield soil- how far and how long could one transport a "body" before being riddled, himself,with arrows/bullets?
Methinks Warlord is correct, General Custer fell where his body was located. A mortal shot to the chest and, a "Coup DE Grace" to the head after wards.
The essential romantic theorem of battle is the "rally" of men to their fallen comrades. The reality of such events,however, remains in question. |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 08 2005 : 09:18:21 AM
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Joe, I can't resist!
quote:
a heated barrage of Indian bullets striking every square inch of battlefield soil- how far and how long could one transport a "body" before being riddled, himself,with arrows/bullets?
Poetic license? If I recall correctly, the battlefield proper - MTC to LSH - was almost a square mile. To save me from advanced math and research, let me simply say that there were not enough firearms, on both sides combined, to come anywhere close to "stiking every square inch of battlefield soil." You can find examples of Civil War battles, Spottsylvania Court House comes to mind, where the concentration of bullets was as you described, however, the areas where that occurred were usually quite concentrated, i.e., the Salient.
Best of wishes,
Billy |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 08 2005 : 11:33:12 AM
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Joseph,
I wasn't thinking so much of a body being hauled, but a wounded commander being assisted. Of course, it's speculation, but also quite plausible. I also have to wonder whether Custer, had he been healthy, lucid and in charge, might have tried to order a skeedaddle back to Reno's position. I'm quite sure someone would have, at least, suggested it to him. |
Bob Bostwick |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 08 2005 : 2:04:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Warlord
BJ: That post was so inane I hardly know what to say. Perhaps DC advised you to post it. Well, there's nothing like studying under a master!
Of course bullets don't necessarily have to strike every inch of a battlefield. They pass above it in a parabolic curve, thus covering a plane. What's a mile? About 1800 yards(?), 36 x 1800 = 64,800 bullets! I am not a mathmatician! But more bullets than the indians fired probably, but nowhere as far afield as your smirking would suggest!
Actually, the targeted areas were much smaller than a square mile! There probably was not a bullet for each inch. Neverthless, it was obviously heavy fire in concentrated areas.
Having a bad day Paul? Obviously so as you were completely unable to pick up tongue-in-cheek humor without having it spelled out for you.
But, going serious for a minute, you made a valid observation regarding parabolic trajectories. Thus, if we really wanted to hold Joe's feet to the fire rather than tickle him, we could add that to the mix also. By the way, reread Joe's original, he said "square inch" which is four times what your figures would indicate. Granted, to have hits at your figure, the riflemen/shooters would have had to be using the weapons in a fashion similar to bowmen lofting the arrows within a fortified area, in a position higher than the targets or at the maximum of the individual weapon's range.
Billy
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 09 2005 : 12:40:41 AM
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quote:
BJ: Your idea of "tongue-in-cheek humor" strikes me as rather juvenile and beside the point. It's not that I cannot pick it up, I simply consider it usually not worth a comment.
Paul, in all honesty, your past comments do not poise you to speak negatively of "juvenille comments". I posted a thought, originally intended as humourous. Your perception of that thought was somewhere in left field.
If you wish to carry on this conversation and the attendent name calling that will ensue, please create another thread; otherwise, STFU !!!!!!
If you need clarification on what the abbreviation stood for, I will be glad to supply it either verbally, written, or however method you desire. I am tired of bullying tactics Paul, and I refuse to even consider letting you bully me on what was originally meant as a humourous statement. Again, if you wish to carry this forward, be my guest. I am not DC. I do bite.
Billy |
Edited by - BJMarkland on March 09 2005 01:26:38 AM |
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Benteen's order
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