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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
 Posted - February 23 2005 : 11:08:29 AM
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Lorenzo
The fact that members of your family suffered at the hands of the Italian Fascists tragic and all as it must have been is irrelevent to this discussion.
You think it strange that nobody mentioned the Bolsheviks.Well I think it strange that you didn't mention the Italian Fascists who sent 8000 Jews to their doom or their use of gas on the aborigines in Africa.
What then? will you call me ****ing catholic?
That remark is unfair and uncalled for.I have never used personal invective or insulting language on this board.I expect Lorenzo that if you are a gentleman you will withdraw that remark. |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 23 2005 : 11:22:39 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by wILD I
Apologies Hunkpapa that last section was for Movingrobewoman
And unlike many tribes, after the Bosque Redondo period, the Dine' got a chunk of their land back--and the tribal borders continued to expand in the early days of the early Tribal Council period of the 20th Century.
And let me say to you again. My *family's* experience was awful, terrible during the Long Walk--but in no way did they face, as the Jews did during WWII, the certainty of systematic, government-approved murder of their entire people.
As I said earlier, the US Government could work with NA individuals/tribes (i.e., the Dine) who could work with them--and there was never such an out for the Jews of Europe ... I guess you could call it the difference between a desperate situation and that of a futile one.
Regards, |
movingrobe |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - February 23 2005 : 12:32:19 PM
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Wild, you've lost your point making that remark. I repeat, I did'nt mention fascists because I consider them, and they were, the same thing of nazis.As allied. However bolsheviks made 100 milions (not 8000) of deads but are still not considered here from you. This fact become important as you and other are making confrontations between nazis and USA. I have no problems to condem fascists. I do it in conferences all over Italy. I talk of my family because you seemed to imply that I don't include on purpose the fascists. What now? Have I to ask you to mention the crimes that still hurt your Land? How much people did they sent irish to their Maker? I would never do this, but this you have done with me.
Though, I knew you would have fallen from the clouds, but I don' fall in your ambush. I let the members judging if I'm a gentleman or not.I add finally: I really am not catholic.
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If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - February 23 2005 : 1:45:04 PM
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The world according to DC.
Very illuminating and I have to say I agree with much of it.But lets take your post and tidy it up a bit and straighten out the barbs.
You try to pretend holocaust and genocide are the same thing.Genocide is a holocaust but a holocaust need not be genocide.OK agreed? Genocide as defined by the UN [and already posted here a million times but I'm a patient man]is the deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to bring about its [group]physical destruction in whole or in part.The policy persued by the US resulted in the total destruction of the group.That is not pretense DC it is fact.
reading your ghastly Irish poetry (most of the good poets moved to England asap) since the Irish folded pretty quick as well.
I agree on the poetry and your right about the poets moving out. We lost Patrick Shakespare that way.As regards folding unlike the Scots we never had the good sense to fold.If we had we could like the Scots be still hanging on to Britania's hind tit.
The Irish, like the Scots and like the Indians, pandered to the conquering powers, sold each other out,
Guess who actually worked the furnaces in the concentration camps.Who stripped the Jews of their last remaining posessions and their dignity?
Pandering to those who have the power of life and death over you is human nature.
They were inferior civilizations,
Conquest is only the characteristic of military might.Rome in case you did not know it was sacked by the barbarians.And while Europe was in the depth of the dark ages civilization was kept alive in Ireland.
and because it fluffs the reputations of its conquerors
This is an old thesis of yours DC that is well past its sell by date and it may come as something of a shock to you but fluffing is about the last thing the "Paddies" would do for the Brits.
Rewind all this and start from that perspective, and it makes more sense, having the advantage of being true.
Only someone with your flexibility could start with that perspective if you get my drift |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - February 23 2005 : 1:59:05 PM
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Lorenzo
What then? will you call me ****ing catholic?
We have a debate here with the usual cut and trust.Sometimes it may even get a bit robust but I have never used personal invective to insult you or anyone else on this board.To suggest that I would call you a ****ing catholic is to do me a diservice.You have always said lets agreed to disagree without insulting each other.Now is your oppurtunity to show you ment that by withdrawing the above contemptable remark. |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 23 2005 : 2:05:04 PM
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Dammit, made the mistake of reading without logging in and spotted the pariah's posts.
Wild, you are getting more hysterical by the post.
quote:
The Indians were victims of crimes against humanity.These crimes took many forms.Ethnic cleansing,transportation,murder,coercion,corralling ,massacre.It was the intention to destroy them as a functioning tribal nation.These victims you people have no problem describing as "just another bunch of aborigines".However when I suggest that the above list of crimes might just constitute a holocause the mask slips and there is outrage.BJ suggests that the Indians brought it on themselves .DC dismisses them as annoying bands and trys to excuse US policy by stating that the Indians would have committed genocide themselves if only they had the weapons.If the Indians can be dismissed as nothing more than a minor irritant then who cares what happened to them.Same modus opperandi as the nazis who described the Jews as nothing more than rats.Denigrate the victims and the crime does not seem so terrible.
Wild, rather than shoot the above full of holes and make you look sillier than you are currently looking, I have a proposition. Rather than spout rhetoric, why don't you start giving examples of crimes and be sure to include your source. I am particularly interested in the "ethnic cleansing". The exercise will be good for you, I promise.
You can leave off examples of "transportation", "corralling" and "coercion" as even a 4th grade student knows that those occurred.
There were massacres by both sides, as well as murder. To deny that is to deny factual occurences.
Billy |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - February 23 2005 : 2:08:18 PM
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You were not disagreeing Wild, you were accusing through the lines, that is even worst of an insult. While I have not insulted you.
I have however no problems to tell that I don't imply in your posts bad faith and to claim that you were always correct - until this time, though.
I hope now the point is clear enough. Mine was just a hurted answer to a veiled accusation. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - February 23 2005 : 2:12:18 PM
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| Exactly BJ, I see just now your post. There was both sides guilty and both right. There is a page of Ambrose very well written about this problem. Unfortunately, I would have to translate it in english and it would loose her brightness with my limping language... |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 23 2005 : 2:50:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous Poster8169
[quote][i]My guess is that the letter refers to Weir's alcoholism. His problems with the bottle are well-known, and Custer being a teetotaler probably wasn't too sympathetic. Whatever it is, he says that Libbie's "moral training" should have sniffed it out earlier, so it must have been somewhat serious.
Actually, I think her nose could have sniffed out the problem ... sorry, couldn't let that one go.
Regards, |
movingrobe |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 23 2005 : 2:54:49 PM
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Warlord--
Never in any post have I stated that there should be/can be a comparison between US policy towards the Native Americans and the resultant effects of such, and that of the Nazis towards the Jews. It's an apples and oranges situation on a much more tragic scale. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - February 23 2005 : 4:55:02 PM
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Dammit, made the mistake of reading without logging in and spotted the pariah's posts
Hi BJ
I hope the above was not addressed to me???
I am particularly interested in the "ethnic cleansing". The exercise will be good for you, I promise.
You can leave off examples of "transportation", "corralling" and "coercion" as even a 4th grade student knows that those occurred.But would a 4th grade student recognise them as facets of ethnic cleansing
"It was horrible the way they treated our people.Some old handicapped people and children couldnt make the journey,were shot on the spot and their bodies left behind for the crows and coyotes"
I'm sure Movingrobewoman has many witness accounts like the above of the forced removal of the Dine to the hell hole of Bosque Redono.
This was the cleansing of northeastern Arizona and northwestern New Mexico
The Carlisle Indian schools---- The common schools are the stomachs of the country in which all people that come to us
are assimilated within a generation.
When a lion eats an ox,
the lion does not become an ox
but the ox becomes a lion."
..Henry Ward Beecher*
An educational system to ethnically transform Indians into Whites.
There were massacres by both sides, as well as murder. To deny that is to deny factual occurences.The massacres by the Indians were not systematic but a reaction to an assault on their very existance.
Lorenzo
You were not disagreeing Wild, you were accusing through the lines, that is even worst of an insult.
I posted 3 words "and Italian Fascists" and you take that as an accusation?You don't ask for an explaination you just suggest I would stoop to calling you a ****ing catholic.
Mine was just a hurted answer to a veiled accusation.
Yours was an appaling insult to someone who has never used such abusive language.
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - February 23 2005 : 5:09:54 PM
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My last sentence was directed not at you, who have went to pains to differentiate, but to others on this board comparing the US Army to the Nazi's!
Hi Warlord
Not being one to dodge the column let me put my head above the parapit and state that I'm discussing the similarities between the annilation of the Indian nation and the Jewish holocaust.if you have some points to make I would be only too happy to accommodate you.
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 23 2005 : 5:31:20 PM
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Wild--
In no way did I say or mean to imply that it was sweetness and light during the Long Walk. In fact, in my first post along this topic, I mentioned that my great-great grandmother was killed by one of Kit Carson's men for getting out of the column to gather her son (my great-grandfather, Kil'chi'i/Red Boy) some food. Getting killed cause she needed to eat isn't what I would consider ideal treatment. By harping to me about what *my* dine experienced, you're wasting your time preaching to the choir.
But as a historical incident, you're not gonna get me to change my mind that the Jews had it worse. Navajos accommodated and generally survived--post Bosque Redondo--Jews could accommodate until they were blue in the face and were still sent, by the millions, to the gas chambers. There is simply no comparison.
Regards,
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whistlingboy
Lieutenant
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 23 2005 : 7:06:46 PM
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Never before in the ages of Man has it been possible to participate in a forum, such as this, with a person from Italy, one from Ireland, one from Australia, one from Greasy Grass, Montana, etc. and discuss scholarly subjects in such a casual format. We each bring our backgrounds to the mix to be stirred into the discussion through our symbolic entries. It is a risky, potentially volatile mixture that can be formed, mostly unintentionally; a mixture that, at times, can be construed to be 'personally' focused, when, in fact, that's not the intention by the writer at all. We do not all write the same way, use word associations correctly, put down our thoughts exactly how we are thinking them, etc. Each one of us have our 'sensitivities' whether we want to admit it or not. Some people, maybe unconsciously, have to win the battle every time; some do not. Of what I have read on this forum, I do not think anyone honestly wishes to disparage any other participant and make them 'kneel' down to the floor. What would be the point. There might be some 'trying to get somebody's goat' offerings but they seem to have a 'funny side to them' making those communications 'interesting.'
I hope everyone here on the forum remains docile and focused with their disagreements and yet firm in their opinion; Some people's histories may be more painful then others and more recent.
Scholarly research should be approached objectively, a challenge that is very difficult. And by questioning posted opinions based on reviewed works of authors, it is possible to form some conclusions on a given topic. At least scholarly interaction is performed and hopefully no one's feelings are hurt. We are not privy to the answers, only to the rumors. We will forever seek out the answers and, hopefully and peacefully, together. (Oh, go back to sleep, Whistlingboy)
The 'voices' here are interesting, to say the least. Can't we agree on that? Let's have a group picture...lol
Hope you all have a good day!
Whistlingboy |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 23 2005 : 7:12:41 PM
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There is the gold standard of genocide, called The Holocaust. Nothing else, however horrible, remotely approaches it. You were killed because of who you were, not because of what you had, or what you had done, or what views you shared, or politics, or religion. "Converted Jews" meant nothing to the Nazis. You were what you were born, and you could tell this about people by phrenology and other idiocies. You were condemned by birth, you could not move away, you could not change, you could not serve your way out. You had to die.
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Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - February 23 2005 : 7:50:47 PM
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"I have never used personal, invective or insulting language on this board."
Wild, the above statement is correct. You have always been a gentleman when discussing issues. In the heat of debate, personal sentiments often rush to the fore and, sadly, words not meant are uttered in haste. While I have not always agreed with you, I have often admired your systematic, reasonable, and informative answers. Your ability to respond in calmness while being tendentious is admirable. Please keep up the good work and I hope you receive your warranted apology from an individual I hold in equal esteem. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - February 24 2005 : 03:24:53 AM
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Well I feel rather humbled by those posts.Perhaps if I continued with this subject I would lose my American friends.As it is very divisive perhaps it would be best to leave it.
My thanks and regards to all of you. |
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hunkpapa7
Lieutenant
United Kingdom
Status: offline |
Posted - February 24 2005 : 07:38:14 AM
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Whistlingboy,you forgot about poor wee Scotland |
wev'e caught them napping boys
Aye Right ! |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - February 24 2005 : 09:21:22 AM
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Wild, your little 3 words were of that kind of irony I hate. Would you have told: "Yes also bolsheviks did, but why did'nt mention also the italian nazi?"
This was correct and I would had nothing to object against.
If I was wrong interpretating your meanings, I apologize. If not, and you was trying to imply I let out Fascists for some personal reasons,I already told my views.
WHISTLING, your post was like clear water... |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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whistlingboy
Lieutenant
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 24 2005 : 10:09:25 AM
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My apology hunkpapa7....really not sure where everyone is from for sure...always loved the Scots and your rich history, though. I was really just identifying a 'worldly' group of interest.
Your views are poingant, Lorenzo, and truly appreciated by everyone, which can be gleaned from the responses. They energize and move others to search, find and respond, agreeing with you or suggesting another realm of possibility in your thinking. Your interesting contributions lend credence to the process. Each contributor appears quite unique in the 'mix' and, I think, makes this forum sort of special.
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - February 24 2005 : 10:09:32 AM
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Warlord, I also add to your fine post that US, could be accused to have sometimes wrong the way (indians had too yet)but in no case the US government had in mind to make a genocide. It seems to be forgotten here that with USA, a great deal of europeans was fighting and not for genocide but for an "hope".
I simply get disturbed with attacks to USA because I see how much the world owe to United States. I repeat: I am not blind towards american faults, but I see elsewhere worst crimes that are not condemned or became not a simbol of cruelty...Finally, much of what people condemn concerning USA, give them in truth the freedom they're using claiming their thoughts. It would be fair to recognize it. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - February 24 2005 : 10:43:05 AM
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Lorenzo
If I was wrong interpretating your meanings, I apologizeBravo |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 24 2005 : 3:05:55 PM
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quote:
wIld1: No I think Billy is talking about me being "The Pariah". He gets upset with me ocassionally, but we both know he wants to know what I am saying.
Actually Paul, it was both of you. Wild obviously must be your long lost brother as he had managed to get on my last nerve as you often do. But, like you, he is now out of time-out.
Wild, good research on the other post. Glad to see it, and I sincerely mean that.
Best of wishes,
Billy |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 24 2005 : 10:04:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Warlord
BJ: Actually, I wish I could handle some of the irritation I have felt toward individuals on this board as well and as gracefully as you do on occasion. But everyone is different! Thats what makes for good argumentation.
Even when it comes from agnostic, feminist, socialists? Warlord, you're starting to disappoint me!
Regards, |
movingrobe |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 25 2005 : 12:13:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Warlord
Hmmm: Don't allow your disappointment to delude yourself! This merely is dust settling from the Holocaust divisivness! Later, you like the guy in Blade II will say "Disappointed Now"?
I have to go polish my sword now, while I watch a dvd of "TROY"!
Finally watched 'Cold Mountain.' Boring, boring. Hopefully, the attacks upon my sex and politics will begin again--soon!
Regards, |
movingrobe |
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Benteen's order
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