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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
 Posted - December 15 2004 : 12:18:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by prolar
Larsen: If you have knowledge of earlier interviews in which Kanipe makes no mention of a message for Benteen, then so be it. I haven't seen them or any reference to them.
I'm surprised then, since you must have read Kanipe's first interview with Camp from June 1908. "... Tom Custer verbally gave Sergeant Knipe orders from General Custer to go back and order McDougall to follow him with pack train and to hurry up. Knipe met Benteen a little west of burning tepee and passed on to McDougall a little further east. He met McDougall and delivered orders. His orders were: 'Go back to McDougall and bring him and the pack train straight across the country. Tell McDougall to hurry the pack train to Custer and if any of the packs get loose cut them and let them go; do not stop to tighten them.'" (Custer in '76, 94). Zippo for Benteen.
The stuff you've been quoting is from some undated later interview; Camp visited the battlefield a few times with Kanipe in later years, and it probably dates from one of those trips. Less than half of his interview notes were actually dated by Camp, though this first one happens to be one of them.
quote:
It seems reasonable to me that by "up there", he meant the high peaks he had just come from, maybe something else seems more reasonable to you.
Kanipe left Custer from Reno Hill, Prolar. But that isn't what you mean at all, is it? You're arguing that "up there" means Benteen was supposed to pursue Custer's battalion, wherever it went. Going "up there" to the "high peaks he had just come from" would just take Benteen where he ended up anyway. I don't think the words mean anything, however, since I doubt Kanipe ever said them. Benteen at the RCOI:
Q. Did a sergeant come to you with any directions about the pack train, if so, to whom was he directed and what was done by you in regard to it?
A. He simply had verbal instructions to the commanding officer of the pack train and I did not consider that an order to me.
Q. You were not commanding officer of the pack train?
A. No, sir. (Pg. 463)
This so-called message to Benteen was unheard of for 30 odd years after the battle.
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From my personal experience it seems ridiculous that a Regimental Commander would have noticed a particular private (trumpeteer) enough to pick him as orderly.
Martin clearly stated that Benteen assigned him as headquarters orderly that day. I think that now is a good time to end this discussion before it becomes more personal.
Martin also never bothered to explain why, assuming he even knew, and I don't think you've discovered some new cache of evidence, personal experience notwithstanding.
If you want to cut it dry that's fine by me.
R. Larsen
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 15 2004 : 3:47:09 PM
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David,
I thought your input correct based on the evidence before you. I thought that while the changes to the river might affect any analysis made today, they wouldn't affect your description of the river then.
Bhist,
Vanity is not my bud, and I'm cheerfully willing to look the fool. Well, not cheerfully, damn it, but I have to face bravely into the wind and courageously admit that a few things I've....indited in my life might not have been totally correct....if read from a certain perspective....if drunk. Of course, I don't think I am here and, on deep reflection, actually cannot recall a single time in my life when I was less than brilliant. It's a burden. In the case I'm wrong, and the Bog Book totally rewrites the LBH, what a club you've got to silence me forever.
There have been several threads about Sklenar in the last two years. He tried to suggest that Custer's whole concept of the Benteen scout was perfect because it referenced only a village at the Lone Teepee that could sorta be seen from CN and was sorta there, although not that day except for one or two other lodges packing up and leaving anyway. It was very forced, the argument on selective testimony, and it's faded away because it didn't have much foundation. And it was definitely designed to nail Benteen, venon in every sentence.
Nightengale was the sound effects, right? What can you hear on a clear day from notional spots that might or might not be the ones referenced over a century before? The "coverup." The more I think about it the more I think it defies comment.
As to reviewing a book not written and certainly not read, I've done it before and not badly, because most of these publications (be honest) are cantalevered to appeal to the Custer Buff. I doubt that, whenever you read of an upcoming book by known/unknown author, you don't do the same thing in your mind I suggested (the response has been enthusiastically tepid) we now do in writing(by which I mean no interest). Knowing a Custer author's interests and prejudices and public statements in the past, how often have you ever been surprised? In a good way, I mean?
It would only be mildly embarrassing if the review was wrong. After all, you can't blame anyone who announces he hasn't read the book to know anything about it. But how embarrassing would it be if the review was mostly right? Wouldn't that be a good thing, to expose the predictabilities of most of these things, and what that says about Custer Studies? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - December 15 2004 : 5:42:48 PM
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D.C. -- I'll let our debate about the upcoming work, which includes MT rest now.
I'd like to add that I was aghast with Sklenar's book. I don't know him, and have nothing against him personally, but his book was one of the worst on the LBH. It was a prime example of how to use lazy research in writing a book. What amazes me is how some Custerphiles have adopted it as gospel.
Don't get me started on Nightengale. He's famous for unleashing his stupid lawyers onto NPS officials who don't agree with him. Nightengale is an embarrassment to the LBH study. His stupid documentary with Bill Kurtis on the History Channel several years ago was a total, absolute laugh.
The documentary referenced to Reno and Benteen not coming to Custer's aid when they knew he was under attack was a sham to historical research. The documentary's premise was that it's some great mystery whether the soldiers' heard gun firing or not from Reno Defense Site. So, they conduct a makeshift "experiment" with a tape recorder on the Reno/Benteen defense site. Over the hills, to the north, they have a few guys waiting to fire some carbines. So, the guys with the tape recorder are talking through walkie-talkies to the men who are waiting to fire their carbines and they begin to countdown to zero. At zero, the men fire their carbines and it's recorded on the tape. Wow! The "researchers" got all excited and said this was proof that Reno heard the firing and, because, he didn't come to Custer's aid, Custer met his death. What a joke! This "experiment" was conducted on a quiet afternoon. The "researchers" didn't take into consideration that the Reno/Benteen site, during the battle, would not have been so quiet. Most importantly, their premise is nothing new. It's their conclusions that are subjective and childish.
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Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 15 2004 : 5:45:15 PM
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Regarding "Offensive Circles."
Whines and Pines, and
silly lines, do not sincerity make.
Author: J. A. Wiggs
Page 137
Book: Of Idiots and Retards.
Thank you for immortalizing me with your desire to cherish and remember various tidbits of information that I've shared with you. |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - December 15 2004 : 9:39:42 PM
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| Larsen : you are correct, it was careless of me not to notice the dates of the Camp interviews. Don't misunderstand me. I respect your viewpoint . I supect we don't disagre greatlty on the facts. Because of the difference in our age and life experiences, we probably will never agree on our interpertation of them.After reading Rich's post it was my desire that our debate not reach the level of some of the previous discussions.That is why I suggested we end it now. I am certainly not suggesting ignoring or banning your posts. |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 16 2004 : 02:34:22 AM
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WL, come on now! The last post added nothing constructive beyond attempting to tear down a fellow poster!
And, bye the way, you really need to come up with some better insults if you are hoping to be banned by us all.
I don't have you banned yet..but wait, I have faith in you...there is always tomorrow!
Merry Christmas,
Billy |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 16 2004 : 09:39:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by prolar
Larsen : you are correct, it was careless of me not to notice the dates of the Camp interviews. Don't misunderstand me. I respect your viewpoint . I supect we don't disagre greatlty on the facts. Because of the difference in our age and life experiences, we probably will never agree on our interpertation of them.After reading Rich's post it was my desire that our debate not reach the level of some of the previous discussions.That is why I suggested we end it now. I am certainly not suggesting ignoring or banning your posts.
Well, I don't think it ever would have run to that, since I don't think either of us would let it, although it's true that every debate, even the best ones, run themselves dry after a while, and ours was probably heading that way. Someone else will probably pick it back up a few months from now, and think of some different angle, then off it'll run again. This old enormous thread is full of such things.
R. Larsen
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 16 2004 : 3:30:25 PM
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I am utterly amazed at some of the remarks regarding the clarification of the "note." Remarks such as: It was vague, it was imprecise, it was like e-mail! I implore someone, anyone (besides Larsen) to describe how a note could have been written more precisely under the circumstances in which this one was created.
It is 1876 (computors are not yet available), you are on horseback, your mount is excited and over heated, you are excited and over heated. You are moving towards a pitch battle against an angry hoard of warriors. More importantly, you don't have a desk and a secretary who excels in dictation. We can rationalize the imprecision of the note until the cows return home. The bottom line is this, the note was an order in the name of the commanding officer to a subordinate to "Come Quick, bring ammunition"; he did neither. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 16 2004 : 6:14:23 PM
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Not in the name of Custer. Again, the word "ammunition" or ammo does not appear.
The "order" - as it has been so dignified - is not in anyone's name except Cooke. I understand he is assumed to speak for the commander. Further, one of the things West Point teaches well is how to write and communicate. To give good orders. You and others continue to ignore the responsibility of a commanding officer to be precise and accurate in his orders because, you see, that's his exact and most important job. It's not an add-on skill for extra credit, it's the main thing. Cooke's job, as adjutant and stenographer, is make sure his boss's orders conform to that requirement. He didn't, and based upon the orders Custer gave to other people that day, Custer probably didn't.
Go read Grant's orders, Buford's reports to Reynolds, or any number of exchanges on the CW battlefield and not. None are worse and most are a lot better than this thing.
Benteen, Come on, Big village, be quick, bring packs, W.W. Cooke, P. S. bring pacs 16 words, counting the two initials separately.
How about:
Great number engage Reno west bank, attacking under fire eastside mile past Reno, need ammo, HURRY 16 words, and assuming this is what he meant it conveys danger and fear and where to bring ammo.
But absent that restriction he could have taken five more minutes (or longer) to think and write exactly what he wanted to happen. The note he sent, in aggregate with the oral statements of Martin and Kanipe, suggest no problem and isn't informative. Perhaps someone could find a worse order actually delivered and proveable under battle conditions? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 16 2004 : 7:49:21 PM
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| Thank you Larsen for not answering. |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 16 2004 : 9:03:05 PM
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| My dear Watson, you may have a point there dear fellow. |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 16 2004 : 9:33:48 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
Thank you Larsen for not answering.
Actually, I already did when you (or somebody else) first asked it some time ago. I even drew up an amended Cooke note of my own, which I thought was pretty effective for the interpretation so many wish to project on it today, and it probably took me less than a minute to write. Your objections are pretty silly. If the message was that important, it wouldn't have taken Cooke much time to write a clear, incisive note. He didn't, so either Cooke was a lazy schlub, or the message was never as important as you and others would like now to pretend it to be. In either case, the message is horrible and vague, unsuitable for any real order, and Cooke should have known better.
R. Larsen |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - December 17 2004 : 10:40:06 PM
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| Bhist: I didn't see the TV program you mention, and have no doubt it was as you say. However I have read Nightengale's book and his premise in it is entirely different. He doesn't doubt that firing was heard at Reno hill by everyone except Reno and Benteen. His premise is that Custer was actually in the village and finally had to retreat because of lack of support. His experiment was to prove that firing from LSH could not be heard at Reno hill and was actually from the village. |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 18 2004 : 08:28:18 AM
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Seems that I'll have to read this book--.
Interesting premise that Custer was actually in the Village and left due to "lack of support". In as much as Custer sent 1/4 of his command (potential support) off on a scout that didn't have to be. And PROMISED support to the other portion of his divided command-- who probably had too few men to begin with and who's charge failed for (among other resons) lack of support from Custer.
Which brings me to a question--
I've read in several books that Custer intended for Benteen's scout to be a "short one". You know--he's just down the street, we can get him (and those packs) back any old time. Just a note from Cooke and he'll be right back. But how could he confidently expect that if he didn't know what Benteen would find?? IF you send 3 companies on a scout, dosen't that suggust you expect to find "something"?? Encounter Indians and that quick return may well not be possible. So--how could he send 3 companies off like that and expect a quick return? Unless, of course, he expected to find nothing. In which case sending 3 companies was a waste of valuable manpower (and valuable time).
And if he wasn't sure what Benteen would find (say 50% chance of nothing, 50% chance of something)dosen't that suggest sending a few scouts to be SURE?? He had 35 (?) Indian scouts and a # of white scouts. Isn't that what scouts do?? Isn't that what they're for?? A short ride by a few fast scouts and Custer has the information he needs-- |
Edited by - Brent on December 18 2004 08:38:10 AM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 18 2004 : 11:39:39 AM
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The problem with Nightengale's work is not as presented here. First, there's never been any doubt that everyone including Benteen and Reno heard firing downriver. Some heard volleys, which is the issue, others heard sorta volleys, and others just heard firing, sometimes described as heavy, or scattered shots. The people who heard this shooting were scouts and troopers trapped along the LBH, and soldiers on Reno Hill doing various things, including some of Benteen's men sitting down and listening intently or Reno's handling the wounded and doing stuff.
Sources for the shots could have been Indians or Custer. In stretches of intense firing it apparently can sometimes seem as though volleys have been fired by coincidence; other times it actually is volley firing. No way to tell.
Second, it's four miles and some hundred feet as the crow flies between the Reno and Custer monuments. Any shooting at LSH isn't relevant: too far away.
So despite the fact that Indians somehow didn't notice soldiers in the village (except for those later who saw warriors returning in soldier garb), and there didn't seem to be any casualties in the village from Custer's command (unlikely they'd escape unbloodied; three heads and other parts probably from Reno's dead), and despite all available evidence, the Custerphile incarnate wants to "prove" Custer did indeed support Reno (just an hour later) and did attack the village (unfortunate the enemy failed to notice)but it's not Custer's fault anymore. If only Reno had continued forward and Benteen had arrived sooner OR with ammo packs, we can't decide. But it's not Custer's fault, see. He'd love us for this, I'm sure of it. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - December 20 2004 : 09:50:52 AM
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First, there's never been any doubt that everyone including Benteen and Reno heard firing downriver. Some heard volleys, which is the issue, others heard sorta volleys, and others just heard firing,
Volley firing would indicate some kind of fire control.The state of the field after the battle presents very little evidence of any kind control.
Second, it's four miles and some hundred feet as the crow flies between the Reno and Custer monuments. Any shooting at LSH isn't relevant: too far away.
Atmospheric conditions can increase the distance sound will carry.
In WW1 the bombardment of Paris could be heard on the South coast of England. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 20 2004 : 10:48:44 AM
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Calhoun Hill had definite signs of fire control, the only place. Since then, Nye-Cartwright also was found to show possible controlled firing.
I wasn't aware the bombardment of Paris could be heard in England, since there were so few guns that could reach it, generally from 75 miles or so further east and north. The Messines mines were heard, though, easily enough.
Edgerly's description of a trail of carnage from MTC to LSH sounds pretty convincing, given that he saw it two days after the battle. A rout and fiasco. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 20 2004 : 4:41:51 PM
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Dc, I have read of, studied same, and absorbed much of the BLBH lore for twenty years or so. I have been a member of this forum since May of 2004. I have read your usage of the term, "Custerphile" more times in the last six months than the previous twenty years; exceedingly more times.
My impression has always been that this term has a negative connontation and was designed to humliate, shame, and down right intimidate every individual who happens to believe that General Custer was not the blithering idiot some would have us to believe.
Let me elaborate, the suffix "Phile"- (one who loves or is attracted to) attached to a personal name (Custer) implies that a Custerphile is someone who loves Custer. The problem with this nomenclature, as I see it, is that it is sometimes,erroneously, applied by particular individuals wishing to redicule others who may dissagree with them for one reason or another.
For example, your referral to Robert Nightengale as a "Custerphile incarnate" could be misconstrued as a phrase loaded with demeaning innuendos. "Incarnate" meaning "personnified" could be translated as the "Ultimate lover of Custer." Of course the ramifications of this ideology are immense and, at all cost, should be avoided.
I am not implying that you are knowningly using this term in such a manner. Although I must admit, I felt that way in the past but, your prior statements that you have never used negative terms regarding the General have convinced me otherwise. I believe you.
I guess I'm just suggesting that the newer members of the forum may not realize how fair minded and impartial you are; as I do. I'm concerned that some may be mislead by your usage of the term "Custerphile" because you do use it over, and over, and over again.
Let me take this opportunity to thank you for your usual,informative posts. |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on December 20 2004 4:49:34 PM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 20 2004 : 5:10:46 PM
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Wiggs, you didn't understand what the term meant at the beginning and took offense in ignorance.
Second, you still don't know what it means. A Francophile admires France and French things. A Custerphile admires Custer. Incarnate means made flesh, embodied, personified. That's all, and it describes Nightengale well.
Custerphiles and Custerphobes have been with us from the beginning and the terms are apt. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 20 2004 : 8:48:54 PM
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Gee Dc, I beg to differ with you but, I must. Those terms, neither of which may be found in any dictionary, were established in the subsequent, torrid, and eternal debate about who was at fault for this tragedy; Custer Vs. Anyone else. These terms absolutely were not there from the beginning.
The debate became do rancorous that the two opposing factions "Custerphiles" and "Custerphobes" became synonymous with partisans who were equally obstinant and foolishly unwilling to "bend" in a forum of common sense. Therefore Dc, the terms are both negative and, became the exemplification of scatterbrained idiocy. In other words, you are either an idiot for Custer or an Idiot against him; in both cases you are an idiot!
Therefore, I do not find either term "apt" as I do not wish to be affiliated with either camp. I don't know of many people who would. Now, it is possible that you were not aware of these facts and, if you were not, then perhaps I have assisted you. I hope so. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 20 2004 : 9:33:40 PM
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| Dc, your saying it does not make it so. Your curt reply speaks volumns. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 21 2004 : 9:21:09 PM
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| Just imagine Dc, you may be the only person in the universe who has failed to comprehend my clear, concise, and reasonable explanation of your two negative terms; "Custerphile" and "Custerprobe." Does this qualify you as an Alien? |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 22 2004 : 12:04:05 AM
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They're not negative terms. One means they admire Custer, one means they dislike him. I realize having had new lies exposed, another example of your inability to read made public, and your fake research underlined - if not deliberate misstatement - has made this a particularly bad day for you even by your standards. But trying to fabricate a victory out of this doesn't ever rise to the level of foolish.
The quotes revealing your incomprehension of the what Custerphile might mean are still up, Wiggs. Like your initial lies about Benteen. Like the sentences that mean the exact opposite of what you think they do. All still up. It's a long list at this point. And this is even forgetting about your implied status as some sort of high school teacher. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Benteen's order
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