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dave
Captain
Australia
Status: offline |
 Posted - December 13 2004 : 08:14:24 AM
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Bhist,
I'm not sure I should post this, seeing as I live on the other side of the world. But I am a geologist - or at least I have a piece of paper which says that I have a BSc in Applied Geology. From the photo's and maps I've seen of the river, I'd say the terrain is wrong for a bog.
I noticed that the stream has eroded fairly steep banks on both sides, which indicates occasional high velocity flow - I guess thats the spring meltwater? or does the area cop the occasional rain bearing depression coming up from the Caribbean? Either way its a fair bet that the stream bed contains a fair bit of sand or pebble - depending on the surrounding geology.
I see that theres a couple of oxbows at present. The oxbows are typical of a stream which loses speed during the dry season, deposition occuring in the low velocity areas on the inside curve of the oxbow, with the higher velocity water eroding the outside bank. These oxbows cyclically migrate downstream during periods of flooding.
So basically you should have a fairly firm stream bed, sand/pebbles being deposited during high water and silt/mud deposited during the summer. Given that sort of deposition pattern, you would expect a reasonably compact footing. I'd imagine the banks would have been baked dry by the day of the battle, unless there had been heavy rain in the preceding few days.
I guess the Indian pony herd could have churned up the area, mainly the banks, but I doubt they would turn the streambed to quick sand. Particularly as they would have been unshod.
Generally bogs form on dead flat land, with porous soils, and where no drainage exists.
Anyway, the only way to be really sure would be to ask the Realbirds - who whoever it is who owns the land. They would almost certainly know if the stream has a habit of forming bogs. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 13 2004 : 10:11:57 AM
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Hail Austrailia Fair! Dead on. And because the railroad came, at least one large bend was removed from the river (the Garry Owen Loop)where Reno's first line was.
Annual rainfall in that area is about what it is here: 10 to 12 inches of water. It's high desert/prairie. There is Spring runoff from the Bighorns that feeds the LBH, but even then it's generally a shallow river overall. It is, however, the St. Lawrence compared to the Rosebud.
I, too, look forward to seeing what the revelations of this book hold. However, given the recent history of this sort of issuance, we should probably have a pool to guess what tenuous possibility is elevated to 'likelihood', what known testimony and fact is (as Larsen predicts) ignored, and, in short, review it before any of us have read it. I have a theory that we'll be 100% correct in all major areas.
Again, it's another weird attempt to excuse Custer not crossing at MTC and doing - albeit too late with too little - what he'd told people he'd do, and that which his reputation demands, and instead retreating north. Its sole interesting feature to me is that it shreds the 'feint' and related theories.
It will be interesting to see how the author explains Keogh's Legion advancing across the ridges to the east as part of the "plan." And there will be a plan, I'm betting, and a loving description that even though Custer's brilliant inital attack scenario was stymied by, well, nature, it was mostly the betrayal of someone for not having told him but even so, the heroic - and brilliant - Custer's mind shifted gears instantaneously and immediately formulated another plan that would have worked if only one of his two batallion officers had a shred of manhood and decency. I can see this before me with all the surety forty years reading this stuff provides.
There's a strong whiff about that the new fall guy for Custer's failure is going to be Boyeur. That might be true if Boyeur had assured him of a crossings location before Custer ordered in Reno's attack, but there is nothing to indicate Boyeur was that familiar with this ground.
And of course, all the formulations and line dance manuevers of the 7th are silly anyway if the number of warriors present is 2000 - the currently accepted number - or more. Nor does it make sense if Custer is seriously suggested to wait for twenty minutes on terrible ground for insufficient reinforcement for an attack that, even if somehow successful, would have driven the village south and away from Terry. The very weak logic driving all these often contradictory and mutually exclusive theories are united only with the agenda of giving Custer the role of martyr, something I myself don't think he'd seek or relish or is supported by facts on the ground or in the history of human endeavor.
Bhist, the Harrington/Keogh reference was to Markland's thread on research locations. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - December 13 2004 : 10:40:56 AM
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Larsen: You make some good points, but you again bring up Cooke's written message to pretend that Benteen wasn't to join Custer. Besides the written "come on, be quick" there are two messengers to tell Benteen what is wanted. Surely Benteen didn't assign Martin as headquarters orderly on that critical day if he can't repeat an oral order at all. The written message was after all, an afterthought.
Just how would Custer know of Reno's flight? Why would Custer go back to Benteen, when Custer is closer to the objective, noncoms, village, or whatever? |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 13 2004 : 12:02:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by prolar
Larsen: You make some good points, but you again bring up Cooke's written message to pretend that Benteen wasn't to join Custer.
It's not I who pretends. The note, if the intention was to give any precise direction, is too poorly written to manage it; and unless you're sitting on some evidence, you were not accurate when you claimed that Benteen understood the message to direct him to Custer.
quote:
Besides the written "come on, be quick" there are two messengers to tell Benteen what is wanted.
Where do you get two from? I count Martin, and Martin alone, unless you're thinking of Voss and Sharrow earlier in the day.
quote:
Surely Benteen didn't assign Martin as headquarters orderly on that critical day if he can't repeat an oral order at all. The written message was after all, an afterthought.
I haven't a clue why Martin was made orderly; maybe Custer liked him for some reason, or Benteen didn't and looked for an excuse to dump him on somebody. We don't actually know that the note was written because they didn't think Martin could repeat an oral order, though that's the most reasonable explanation. In any case, neither Martin nor the note conveyed the idea that Benteen was supposed to bypass Reno and the village in search of Custer.
quote:
Just how would Custer know of Reno's flight? Why would Custer go back to Benteen, when Custer is closer to the objective, noncoms, village, or whatever?
Curley says he and Bouyer watched Reno get repulsed, and that Bouyer then went off and, he presumed, told Custer of it. In any case, even if we didn't have Curley's account, the fact that Custer did not attack the village, even though by all accounts be had a good opportunity, would imply that he knew of what happened to Reno. Why attack in support of something that can no longer be supported.
Why go back to Benteen, you ask? Rather, why push forward with Reno out of action? I don't think even Custer could have thought he could take the village with one wing of his assault force completely derailed. And the Indians say he didn't seriously try. He retreated.
R. Larsen |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 13 2004 : 12:10:23 PM
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quote:
...a loving description that even though Custer's brilliant inital attack scenario was stymied by, well, nature, it was mostly the betrayal of someone for not having told him but even so, the heroic - and brilliant - Custer's mind shifted gears instantaneously and immediately formulated another plan that would have worked if only one of his two batallion officers had a shred of manhood and decency.
The Lord will have to forgive me as I can't resist.
Custer wanted to use the "OFFENSIVE CIRCLE" perhaps?
LMAO,
Billy |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 13 2004 : 12:29:20 PM
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Hey, it worked for Elliott. No way else could he have killed the scourge of Tobacco. Mission accomplished. Hail.
R. Larsen |
Edited by - Anonymous Poster8169 on December 13 2004 12:34:18 PM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 13 2004 : 12:45:11 PM
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And there it is, the new angle. Custer planned to move forward utilizing the Offensive Dudecahedron (duodecahedron?)that perfectly fit the ground if only lesser minds........oh hell, where's the scotch and what have you done with my spellczech?
Warlord, of course you're trying to be gruesome. All speculation about wounds seen three days after the fact in hot sun are so by definition, as well as pointless. It could have been mortal, it could also have been a spent bullet that barely broke the skin, but there is simply no way to tell based upon the different descriptions seen at various distances by people not qualified to make such a diagnosis. Or, perhaps, by people who never actually saw it but felt compelled to have an opinion. Ryan thinks the wounds were on the right side, and he buried him.
Returning, again, to discuss the possible variations of this is beyond pointless. We don't know. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on December 13 2004 12:58:48 PM |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - December 13 2004 : 2:09:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dave
Bhist,
I'm not sure I should post this, seeing as I live on the other side of the world. But I am a geologist - or at least I have a piece of paper which says that I have a BSc in Applied Geology. From the photo's and maps I've seen of the river, I'd say the terrain is wrong for a bog.
I noticed that the stream has eroded fairly steep banks on both sides, which indicates occasional high velocity flow - I guess thats the spring meltwater? or does the area cop the occasional rain bearing depression coming up from the Caribbean? Either way its a fair bet that the stream bed contains a fair bit of sand or pebble - depending on the surrounding geology.
I see that theres a couple of oxbows at present. The oxbows are typical of a stream which loses speed during the dry season, deposition occuring in the low velocity areas on the inside curve of the oxbow, with the higher velocity water eroding the outside bank. These oxbows cyclically migrate downstream during periods of flooding.
So basically you should have a fairly firm stream bed, sand/pebbles being deposited during high water and silt/mud deposited during the summer. Given that sort of deposition pattern, you would expect a reasonably compact footing. I'd imagine the banks would have been baked dry by the day of the battle, unless there had been heavy rain in the preceding few days.
I guess the Indian pony herd could have churned up the area, mainly the banks, but I doubt they would turn the streambed to quick sand. Particularly as they would have been unshod.
Generally bogs form on dead flat land, with porous soils, and where no drainage exists.
Anyway, the only way to be really sure would be to ask the Realbirds - who whoever it is who owns the land. They would almost certainly know if the stream has a habit of forming bogs.
Good study from so far away. However, let me correct you on a few points.
MTF does not have steep banks, they're very shallow.
The Tongue River is a pebble stream, the LBH is muddy.
These streams flood from snow melt out of the Big Horns. |
Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
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MarcusAurelius
Recruit
Status: offline |
Posted - December 13 2004 : 3:10:04 PM
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MUCH ADO ABOUT THE NOTE
recent quotes:
you again bring up Cooke's written message to pretend that Benteen wasn't to join Custer.
The note, if the intention was to give any precise direction, is too poorly written to manage it;
neither Martin nor the note conveyed the idea that Benteen was supposed to bypass Reno and the village in search of Custer.
Just how would Custer know of Reno's flight? Why would Custer go back to Benteen, when Custer is closer to the objective, noncoms, village, or whatever?
the fact that Custer did not attack the village, even though by all accounts be had a good opportunity, would imply that he knew of what happened to Reno. Why attack in support of something that can no longer be supported.
Why go back to Benteen, you ask? Rather, why push forward with Reno out of action? I don't think even Custer could have thought he could take the village with one wing of his assault force completely derailed. And the Indians say he didn't seriously try. He retreated.
The essence: Why was the note written?
The note has long been an impediment to understanding....it is like todays emails...easy to misread, to make it into the opposite meaning from what was intended.... e.g. What does this particlular word mean? why is there a ps? on and on, obsessing over the note.... For some reason, at the end of their analyses, LBH aficionados seem to use the note to contradict the logic of Custer's actions, rather than seeing it as flowing FROM the logic of his actions.
I offer this suggestion, take it to heart or not as you see fit.
IMHO, one should focus on the essence of the note, not the words: while this process may seem counterintuitive, people should begin by thinking about why it was written; that is not such a hard question, given what Custer was doing, and taking a larger view of history and military organization; once that is understood the meaning of the words become clearer.
furthermore, what is NOT in the note is at least as important as what seems to be in it.
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in all things, ask what is the essence of it? |
Edited by - MarcusAurelius on December 13 2004 3:36:47 PM |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
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dave
Captain
Australia
Status: offline |
Posted - December 13 2004 : 6:47:35 PM
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Bhist,
I assumed that you were saying that the bog was on the ford crossing the LBH, evidently not from your response. I can't comment on the MTC, other than to say that if the slopes are gentle, then its certainly possible.
To clarify a few points:
The steep embankments I noted are on the Little Bighorn, unless the National Geographic is lying. From the diorama they have of the battlefield, these banks are mostly located in the vicinity of Deep Ravine.
The river should be muddy for large amounts of the year. But it should have a firmer substrate formed during periods of flooding. So I'll stand by my initial comments for the moment - no bogs on the LBH are likely, I have no idea about further up the MTC. |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - December 13 2004 : 7:41:58 PM
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OK Larsen, since this is a two for one, Ill do your research for you again.Note 11,page 93, Custer in 76,Camp's field notes, interview with Knipe: When Knipe got to north branch of Benteen Creek....he saw Benteen over south at main Benteen Creek and he waved his hat and Benteen turned right (north) and came over that way and Knipe turned to right and passed Benteen and told him that " they want you
up there as quick as you can get there--they have struck a big Indian camp."
So there is your 2nd messenger and the specific instruction of of where Benteen is wanted.
I can't believe you think Custer actualy picked a private as his orderly that day. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 13 2004 : 8:26:55 PM
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Regarding Kanipe, Graham considers his story full of errors as he did several of the old men interviewed in the 1920's. He was interviewed way after the fact. In any case, if that was the message, it was no more specific than the note.
Again, I draw attention to Kanipe's recollection that McDougall was to take off and arrive ASAP dropping boxes if necessary. McDougall didn't do it. And nobody ever called him on it: then, later, ever. How come? The most logical conclusion is that Kanipe's message and role became more dramatic as the years passed. Nobody ever thought McDougall had betrayed Custer by not obeying that alleged order, and McDougall was a Custer Clique guy which is most puzzling, if people recalled the order as Kanipe did. I suspect they did not. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on December 13 2004 8:28:14 PM |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 14 2004 : 02:33:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by prolar
OK Larsen, since this is a two for one, Ill do your research for you again.Note 11,page 93, Custer in 76,Camp's field notes, interview with Knipe: When Knipe got to north branch of Benteen Creek....he saw Benteen over south at main Benteen Creek and he waved his hat and Benteen turned right (north) and came over that way and Knipe turned to right and passed Benteen and told him that " they want you
up there as quick as you can get there--they have struck a big Indian camp."
So there is your 2nd messenger and the specific instruction of of where Benteen is wanted.
Kanipe's message was to McDougall, not Benteen, and I don't know what you think this is supposed to prove, although we must marvel at the specificity of "up there".
quote:
I can't believe you think Custer actualy picked a private as his orderly that day.
Does this refer to Martin? Okay, tell me what I think.
R. Larsen
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dave
Captain
Australia
Status: offline |
Posted - December 14 2004 : 08:00:12 AM
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Sorry Bhist, just realised you wrote MTF, not MTC. Please ignore the comments about the MTC.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 14 2004 : 11:17:19 AM
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Anyway, the only way to be really sure would be to ask the Realbirds - who whoever it is who owns the land. They would almost certainly know if the stream has a habit of forming bogs.
David, is this relevant? With the Garry Owen Loop removed, the flow of the river altered, and new land exposed to the river's erosion just above MTC(by which I often mean MTF, but it's hard to change)it may not be all that applicable to June 25, 1876.
In any case, what might have occured isn't as compelling as the testimony that, however you define a bog, MTF was apparently used heavily that day by Sioux heading east and the 7th said it was a terrific crossing point. I've been trying to formulate why this would be somehow crucial, and it just seems more than ever an attempt to divert attention away from the Dog That Didn't Attack In the Day. You don't need Holmes to have your attention called to this, though. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - December 14 2004 : 1:45:29 PM
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I think I posted about my friends new evidence about Medicine Tail Ford (MTF) in error. I made it clear that I was not made aware of all the evidence, that he is still researching for his book, and that I couldn’t come to a firm conclusion on his theory.
So, what do some of you do? You start criticizing it before it’s even written. It’s like attempting to review a movie before it’s seen. Come on. This criticism, as much as it sounds so intelligent is lame. There is no precondition that gives anyone here a right to judge someone’s theory before hearing it in total.
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Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - December 14 2004 : 2:43:04 PM
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Larsen: Kanipe stated that he also delivered a message to Benteen. Even if he didn't, the peaks where he and Martin left Custer are visible to Benteen. This made "up there" specific. It certainly didn't refer to the village or to Reno who was thought to be in the valley.
I can only judge your thoughts by what you say. You made the ridiculous statement that maybe Martin was orderly because "maybe Custer liked him for some reason" Martin clearly stated that Benteen assigned him as headquarters orderly. Benteen expressed his low opinion of Martin. The fact that he assigned Martin as a headquarters messenger on this critical day should tell you something about Benteen. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 14 2004 : 4:47:33 PM
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Not Larsen, but on break. Your chronology is wrong, Prolar. There's no evidence Benteen thought poorly of Martin previous to this day. His venom emerged after Benteen saw the accuracy of Martin's description of the Indians running, heard by several, and the later revelation that Custer was under attack when Martin left him - ambushed! - which was not what anyone heard Martin say the 25th.
Further, Martin had served in this capacity before, and if Cooke or Custer or anyone felt him undesirable on this or any day they had ample opportunity to preclude it. What's ridiculous about "maybe Custer liked him for some reason?" Maybe he did, and it's pretty much how Custer populated his entourage, isn't it?
It's true Benteen generalized in dead seriousness about nationalities and races not his own, but that was hardly rare back then.
Also, it's two miles from the Flat - where Martin met Benteen - to Reno Hill, and more than another mile to where Kanipe met Benteen, and you can see a lot under that big sky that blends in to an unremarkable landscape. It's difficult, I know, to make out Reno Hill (with the monument) as anything distinct from everything else from Weir Point, and that's closer (and downhill, granted).
Further, if Custer had attacked the village across the river, according to your interpretation of the messages what was Benteen to do upon arrival......where? And according to your interpretation, should Benteen come with the packs? If so, when do you think he'd have arrived? And "even if he (Kanipe) didn't" deliver the message to Benteen, you say Benteen should have known osmotically that Custer wanted him up by undenoted peaks ahead?
The fact that you're stretching to construct something sinister about Martin being assigned as an orderly to Custer's posse tells us something about Prolar and his Custer Crush. Custer can make odd, vague orders and then putter towards notional spots to regroup and fix saddles and about an hour after the action started is nosing down MTC for attack or feint. That's okay and undeserving of censor but to be applauded for his calm military expertise while Reno dices with imminant death against a growing herd of hostiles.
But Benteen's a villain for not hurtling north and arriving with depleted horses and men.....somewhere... based on "orders" that nobody could fathom then. Or now. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 14 2004 : 7:58:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bhist
So, what do some of you do? You start criticizing it before it’s even written. It’s like attempting to review a movie before it’s seen. Come on. This criticism, as much as it sounds so intelligent is lame. There is no precondition that gives anyone here a right to judge someone’s theory before hearing it in total.
I haven't criticized it. I'm quite open to what he has to say, when he chooses to say it. I have, though, noted the testimony of Hare and Culbertson --- testimony which he will have to note --- and I have a hard time seeing how he'll be able to say that he is right and they are wrong. I don't see how that's "lame".
R. Larsen
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 14 2004 : 8:15:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by prolar
Larsen: Kanipe stated that he also delivered a message to Benteen. Even if he didn't, the peaks where he and Martin left Custer are visible to Benteen. This made "up there" specific. It certainly didn't refer to the village or to Reno who was thought to be in the valley.[/quoute]
Funny, Kanipe never said he meant anything in particular by "up there," in the one account he spoke of it. You're making this up. And the oldest accounts, before senility overtook him, never mention any messages to Benteen. He was sent to McDougall.
[quote]
I can only judge your thoughts by what you say. You made the ridiculous statement that maybe Martin was orderly because "maybe Custer liked him for some reason" Martin clearly stated that Benteen assigned him as headquarters orderly. Benteen expressed his low opinion of Martin. The fact that he assigned Martin as a headquarters messenger on this critical day should tell you something about Benteen.
I don't see how it's ridiculous at all --- and it's hardly what I think. I don't know the reasons behind Martin's detail, nor do you. I suggested possibilities, and I don't see how one is less likely than the other.
Nor do I see why you're gunning so hard for Benteen. Custer was hardly forced to have Martin as an orderly, and not at all coerced to send him as a messager. What does that tell you about Custer?
R. Larsen |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 14 2004 : 9:15:42 PM
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Bhist,
If you're going to tease interest in a friend's book, and you brought it up, we - by which you and I actually mean "Dark Cloud" but anyone else as well - have the right to hypothesize about it in public. I bet the board that we could write a compelling review now without having read it (and even before the author writes it) based solely upon what you'd brought up and Larsen wondered about buttressed by my beief that it's yet another strained attempt to provide an excuse for why Custer didn't make a crossing (crucial to the Neo-Custerphile intent upon proving Custer always on the offensive) at the MT...F at the mouth of MTC on the LBH.
Like Sklenar and Nightengale and some others, it's trying to conform evidence to support theory to shake what archaeology and Gray's time line unexpectedly and inadvertently have done: revealed that the LBH fiasco was really a last minute decision by Custer or (if you drink at lot, like me, tonight it's Clan Wowee '98, quadruple malt)whoever acted on his behalf that sent the five companies north. Everything previous to that was not necessarily mortal. He could have saved his guys, maybe even won.
There is nothing fated, nothing actually irreversible.....until he passes Weir Point. There is no romance, no Greek tragedy, nothing preordained. Someone, probably Custer, made a dumb ass move around 4 PM. It's outside the enjoyable templates for contemplation that people bring with them to consider the battle, but it's likely true. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - December 14 2004 : 11:49:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Bhist,
Like Sklenar and Nightengale and some others, it's trying to conform evidence to support theory to shake what...
D.C. With respect, I have to ask you to reread your quote above. How can you embarrass yourself so, knowing your intelligence, by making this statement? You give people a hard time for making statements without proper documentation, however, you feel it valid to make negative statements about a work, without review, and one that is still in progress and not published. |
Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
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dave
Captain
Australia
Status: offline |
Posted - December 15 2004 : 09:41:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Anyway, the only way to be really sure would be to ask the Realbirds - who whoever it is who owns the land. They would almost certainly know if the stream has a habit of forming bogs.
David, is this relevant? With the Garry Owen Loop removed, the flow of the river altered, and new land exposed to the river's erosion just above MTC(by which I often mean MTF, but it's hard to change)it may not be all that applicable to June 25, 1876.
It may, or may not be relevant. I have to admit that I didn't stop to think about the environmental impact of a century or more of ranching when I wrote that statement, not to mention as you point out the effects of various engineering works.
I guess if your ranchers are anything like their Aussie counterparts, then they probably overgraze the land, which leads to increased erosion, higher sediment load in streams. And I suppose they might pump water out for stock use. So yes, the river might not be quite as it was 128 years ago.
quote:
In any case, what might have occured isn't as compelling as the testimony that, however you define a bog, MTF was apparently used heavily that day by Sioux heading east and the 7th said it was a terrific crossing point.
Well thats the crux of the matter, prove the history and only then there might be a case.
Really my comments are quite irrelevant. All I was trying to do was point out the location is not favourable for the formation of a bog, particularly not in the middle of a hot summer. I think people should also stop to consider just how large the bog would have to be to stop a company of troopers (or companies), such a short distance from their objective.
Anyway, other members of this forum have already covered this topic in the thread entitled "MTC: Basic Theories", and from memory no one gave the idea of an uncrossable bog much credibility. |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - December 15 2004 : 10:45:20 AM
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Larsen: If you have knowledge of earlier interviews in which Kanipe makes no mention of a message for Benteen, then so be it. I haven't seen them or any reference to them. It seems reasonable to me that by "up there", he meant the high peaks he had just come from, maybe something else seems more reasonable to you. From my personal experience it seems ridiculous that a Regimental Commander would have noticed a particular private (trumpeteer) enough to pick him as orderly.
Martin clearly stated that Benteen assigned him as headquarters orderly that day. I think that now is a good time to end this discussion before it becomes more personal. |
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Benteen's order
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