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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
 Posted - October 24 2004 : 06:59:00 AM
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And again, if you substitute the name Biff Jones for Tom and insert in into the Black Hills or Yellowstone stories, it's very odd this mere Captain is telling others what to do and is always about. TWC did seem to operate outside the command structure, which I don't find odd or even wrong, per se, and nobody seems to comment negatively on it either. Even Benteen, who disliked them both.
To suggest that TWC sent Kanipe with an order to the pack train without the knowledge of Custer is ridiculous.The action would be tantamount to mutiny.To redirect a unit of a regiment going into action without the authority of the CO is so stupid as to verge on insanity.TWC would have had to assume that Custer had not ordered the pack train to support Reno who was hotly engaged.
Further there is a logic connecting the two messages.The first one calls for the packs only.19 Minutes later the situation has deteriorated and thus the second message calls for not only the packs but Benteen's troops.
If you want to speculate DC try making the case that Kanipe was the last messenger and had overtaken Martin who was riding a wounded horse.It would tie in with the panicky nature of Kanipe's message |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 24 2004 : 10:04:59 AM
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I don't have to speculate. And Kanipe, obviously, was not the second messenger. Ergo, it's you guys who have to explain the differences in strain apparent in the two messages, why the first is more demanding than the second, and why a deteriorated situation would suggest a less hysterical message. What had deteriorated, by the way, in those supposedly crucial 16 (not 19 minutes, page 272 Gray)? Further, the sixteen minute difference is arrival, not departure, time. Martin, with a wounded and already tired horse (his words), can reasonably be assumed to have travelled slower than the previous Kanipe, suggesting the two orders were given much closer together.
What is very odd is that Kanipe has no memory of Boston Custer, who passed Benteen an hour and ten minutes before Kanipe arrived (Gray, p. 251), a suspicious nonevent given he meets Martin later, supposedly on the same trail. Explain.
And why do you misstate the facts, although I'm used to it,now? The first message did not request the packs only. It requested the ammo packs only, to be brought as quick as possible. At least, according to Kanipe in 1905. That this was not done did not result in the train commander being court martialed for failing to obey a direct order. That could be because it actually wasn't the order or because it was acknowledged as unable to be carried out. But the ammo packs were not even separated from the others at this point. How come?
And no, Wild, my offered scenario with TWC is not ridiculous, nor remotely mutiny. It's an officer anticipating the needs of his commander based upon 31 years of co-existence, several within this regiment, and perfectly rational and, in any case, correct, since Custer did want the train. And as I say, when you read (have you?)the stuff from the Yellowstone and the Black Hills expeditions and before, if T's last name wasn't Custer you'd have a hard time explaining his presence above that of others of his rank and station, talking to Cooke as a peer.
I point again to TWC's TELLING superior officers relevant to the issue at hand that HE was going to tell the General about the Bread Box incident, something of which he had no first hand knowledge, and doing so with Calhoun, his brother-in-law who also had none, that morning. As he rode to his brother someone, hard to say who, brought the regiment forward at the same time to his brother's temporary annoyance. It was neither Reno, Benteen, nor Cooke. Who, then? Who had authority as if he spoke for the commander, of prestige sufficient he was not yelled at when Custer returned, and also unknown to the day's survivors? Tough one. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 24 2004 : 11:16:07 AM
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One last "chirp" about the .45 and I'll let it go-it's off topic enough as it is.
All I can say is that as a sidearm for the Vietnam era Junior Officer it didn't have much of a following. In fact, several other LT's who I became friendly with tried taking their own pistols with them to Vietnam--and so did I.(I had a .41 S&W magnum). But of course the Army didn't allow it, primarily for reasons of ammo availability and no parts should it malfunction.
So I sold it in Vacaville California before we went overseas--. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 24 2004 : 1:38:30 PM
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DC
Did not Custer inform Reno that he would support him with the whole outfit?By ordering the packs [ammo]forward to join the Custer Battalion,TWC decided off his own bat that the ammo would not be part of that support.
You are suggesting that there were two centers of command in the 7th.
This is just plain lunacy.How could a regiment function with that system?What if Tom's orders clashed with big brother's,what were troop commanders to do then?
If Tom sent that message without informing Custer it amounted to mutiny.
As he rode to his brother someone, hard to say who, brought the regiment forward at the same time to his brother's temporary annoyance. It was neither Reno, Benteen, nor Cooke. Who, then? Who had authority as if he spoke for the commander, of prestige sufficient he was not yelled at when Custer returned, and also unknown to the day's survivors? Tough one.
So Custer was pissed off because someone was playing with his soldiers without his sayso.It would have been unusual for the CO to yell at officers in front of the men particularly if it was little brother.
And why do you misstate the facts, although I'm used to it,now? The first message did not request the packs only. It requested the ammo packs only,
Trivia.Packs here always mean ammo.
And no, Wild, my offered scenario with TWC is not ridiculous, nor remotely mutiny. It's an officer anticipating the needs of his commander
What about Keogh and the other officers I suppose they could also fire off messages as well.Do you not think this anticipating could lead to a little confusion?
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 24 2004 : 2:23:34 PM
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Come on, Wild, you misrepresent.
I'm not suggesting that TWC operated against or outside his brother - you know, a 'mutiny' - but that he did periodically anticipate him as I think he did here, and correctly. Nor am I saying other officers could do this. I'm saying TWC could.
The reason we're discussing this is that Custer did yell at his brother in front of some men about bringing the regiment forward. In the years past, he'd been rather brutal to TWC and others on the march.
And other than wishful thinking of convenience, what is the basis for assuming "ammo" always equalling "packs?" In Crooke's and MacKenzie's tales, they make the distinction. Kanipe was told to bring ammo. Martin, the packs. Given the size of the village and Vic being with the packs, he'd want them protected. It's not like there was nothing of use and value but the ammo. There was medical supply and food. Not trivia.
Further, if the ammo pack mules are brought forward, do they include the ammo for Custer's weapons or were they, as other custom ammo was, in the packs specific to company and headquarters?
It's pretty clear that Benteen, Barnitz, Reno, and others' chief annoyances with Custer is that he did not consult or command based on structure but his friends and clique and excluded them. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on October 24 2004 2:33:11 PM |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 24 2004 : 4:01:19 PM
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I'm not suggesting that TWC operated against or outside his brother - you know, a 'mutiny' - but that he did periodically anticipate him as I think he did here, and correctly.
Fine but you make too much of this prestige his relationship with Custer bestowed on him.No problem anticipating the usual routine house keeping in the regiment but extending this to include directing units in battle without informing his brother is just ridiculous.
It's pretty clear that Benteen, Barnitz, Reno, and others' chief annoyances with Custer is that he did not consult or command based on structure but his friends and clique and excluded them.He gave Benteen and Reno command of his battalions that's not excluding them.
And other than wishful thinking of convenience, what is the basis for assuming "ammo" always equalling "packs?"
Because at 3.15 that afternoon it was only the ammo that mattered and would allow them to survive to make use of the trivia . |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 24 2004 : 5:02:02 PM
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by paragraph.
I don't say that he directed units in battle (although he did, of course)by which you mean contrary to his brother's wishes. I say he brought the regiment forward (who did if not him?) correctly assuming his brother would agree and he later sent back for ammo in correct anticipation of his brother's wants. I further don't say he didn't inform his brother, but in the first instance he had to ride to him and in the second: who knows? You make too big a deal over proper procedure, something Custer was famous for NOT following even by the standards of the Western frontier. I'd like to read a post that you've read the stuff on the Yellowstone and Black Hills and still find TWC's role no different from that of the other officers'.
See: I'm talking about planning it out, which excluded them. You pretend I'm talking about their unit command and that it subs for the planning. It doesn't. That's a deliberate attempt to confuse the issue, Wilde.
That's incorrect. As before, medical and food, his own horse and ammo, and at that proximity why divide the train? I'm not sure Custer's weapons fired the .45 rounds the cavalry did (I've seen different claims). And again, explain why McDougall wasn't brought up on charges for failure to obey? If what Kanipe said is true, that's the one sure court martial offense of this operation. But people assumed the two orders referred to the same thing because they arrived so close together; they may not have. When people want ammo only they said/wrote ammo in most units. In Crooke's case it often didn't matter, since the packs were organized so well and they travelled with the combat units. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 24 2004 : 6:12:57 PM
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I say he brought the regiment forward (who did if not him?) correctly assuming his brother would agree
But you said
The reason we're discussing this is that Custer did yell at his brother in front of some men about bringing the regiment forward.
he later sent back for ammo in correct anticipation of his brother's wants.
He usurped his brothers authority.A mutinious act regardless of what Custers plans were.At 3.15 Custer did not require the ammo to be ordered forward.If the pack train commander had followed TWC instructions he would have cut across country thus missing out Reno and probably have blundered into massed Indians in the vicinity of the LSH and met the same fate as Custer.Also Reno/Benteens chance of survival would have been greatly reduced without the reserve ammo.
For your speculation to have any credibility you must cast TWC in the role of a loose cannon.You place great importance on the family element of the command structure.Well I would imagine that TWC would not have acted as you suggest out of loyalty to his brother.
See: I'm talking about planning it out, which excluded them. You pretend I'm talking about their unit command and that it subs for the planning. It doesn't. That's a deliberate attempt to confuse the issue, Wilde.
The plain fact is he had no plan and so he neither included nor excluded anyone.
That's incorrect. As before, medical and food, his own horse and ammo, and at that proximity why divide the train? I'm not sure Custer's weapons fired the .45 rounds the cavalry did (I've seen different claims).
He has 3 troops fighting for their lives and hundreds of Indians massing in his and flanks and you suggest he is worried about his horse and private ammo supply? Giveus a break DC.
explain why McDougall wasn't brought up on charges for failure to obey
Because Reno took command of all troops in his area of the field.
Because the order was verbal.Because the main witness was a ranker. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 24 2004 : 6:43:44 PM
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Wilde, you're being deliberately dense. By paragraph:
1. All true. And then Custer was told the reason: the bread box, Indians having found the regiment, had to move. He agreed.
2. Except that TWC correctly anticipated his brother - as he had for a while; still haven't read the Yellowstone and Black Hills material, have you? - perhaps because he overheard Custer talking to Cooke, perhaps on his own. Martin's description, involving Cooke's confused note, suggests a lot was going on. Look at the map to understand how bizarre and inaccurate your scenario is and would be. I agree about Reno/Benteen's chances, of course, but I think that's because the order meant no more than bring up the train so we can access it at need while we, on arrival, hit the village.
3. Not exclusively, Wilde, give me a break. But yes, he'd probably like to have something to fire later on and his prize horse and food and medical supplies and since there's no reason the whole train can't be brought up, why just bring up ammo he himself can't use? It's so close.
4. Ah. Gee, just shows what you pro soldiers know we don't. See, I thought an order was an order, that an event taking place after the fact (Reno taking command almost two hours later when the train came in range, plus you consider these all separate commands or have you retreated on that, now, as well?) beyond all relevance doesn't resolve the act's compliance or not, and that Benteen, his troops, and all the people who heard Kanipe deliver his order added some heft to a mere Sergeant supposedly trustworthy enough to carry such messages. I see. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 25 2004 : 05:30:18 AM
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All true. And then Custer was told the reason: the bread box, Indians having found the regiment, had to move. He agreed.
You have totally missed the point DC.Custer would not stand for anyone interfering with his dispositions,even his brother.The decision to move the regiment was made in Custer's absence.The decision to fire off an order to the pack train was made in Custer's presence.A vital difference.
2. Except that TWC correctly anticipated his brother
By 19 minutes and against all military practice.Having been yelled at by his brother for just moving the regiment forward he takes upon himself in the presence of big brother the responsibility to cut Reno out of the loop and order [in a most urgent manner]the packs forward.
but I think that's because the order meant no more than bring up the train so we can access it at need while we, on arrival, hit the village.
Oh sure.Everything was going so splendidly.So what was the "cut across country and cut away any loose packs" all about?
4. Ah. Gee, just shows what you pro soldiers know we don't. See, I thought an order was an order, that an event taking place after the fact (Reno taking command almost two hours later when the train came in range, plus you consider these all separate commands or have you retreated on that, now, as well?) beyond all relevance doesn't resolve the act's compliance or not, and that Benteen, his troops, and all the people who heard Kanipe deliver his order added some heft to a mere Sergeant supposedly trustworthy enough to carry such messages. I see.
You asked why MCDougal was not courtmarshalled,not should he have been courtmarshalled.
Benteen to quote you "a snob of the first water" would not have supported a mere sergeant against a brother officer.The other people who may of heard Kanipe were mere rankers,the same rankers who requested that Reno and CO be promoted.Your contention that everyone knew this message was from TWC and thus not to be taken seriously ranks along side the late lamented Oscar's best works .
Bye the bye who's going to win the election? |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 25 2004 : 09:37:45 AM
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by paragraph:
1. Whoever DID move the regiment forward did do it without Custer's presence and would have to have the cachet to do it without anyone blinking an eye. Nobody who survived, enlisted or officer, knew who it was. TWC passed the front of the column on the way up Crow's Nest to his brother, after which it moved. Nobody except TWC was yelled at about it. Your own reasoning condemns him and proves the point. Again who did, if not him? Reno and Benteen weren't there by their own story and no other officer contradicts them, which they would do.
What is your basis for saying the pack train order to Kanipe was issued in C's presence? Martin never noticed TWC or Kanipe or any message going off before him. Custer was distant from Kanipe when TWC gave Kanipe his message, because Kanipe never said he heard Custer issue it.
2. What nineteen minutes, Wilde? It's sixteen (whoa! crucial, I know). And Custer, who was himself convicted of deserting his troops without cause, sometimes travelled with a stove, cook, and band on matching horses in Montana and Kansas, impedimenta normal to brigades in Virginia but not there, and is not a normal commander and in fact was famous for the opposite of what you claim, starting with dress in himself and his men.
3. At the time the order was sent, nothing was going wrong, Wilde. Otherwise, they'd say so, don't you think? And as I've said, it's a stupid and vague 'order.'
4. Falsehoods. I've NEVER contended 'everyone' knew this message came from TWC, what are you talking about? I've said no different then that everyone thought it came from GAC and it wasn't obeyed IF INDEED, that was the order everyone heard Kanipe delivered. But Kanipe only heard it from TWC, and a very short time later, Custer issues nearly the same order. Your reasoning on the courtmartial is specious at best, Wilde, very silly. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 25 2004 : 1:44:11 PM
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The same old DC gambit.Cloud the real issue with trivia.The action you accuse TWC of taking amounts to mutiny and treachery.It is based on nothing more than spurious speculation.What Kanipe/Martin may or may not have seen or heard and their interpretation of the situation is no grounds for drawing the conclusions you have.Kanipe actually stated[page 249 the Custer Myth]that TWC ordered him to carry instructions issued by Custer himself back to McDougal.Is Tom lying or is Kanipe's recollection faulty?
TWC was a brave officer with a distinguished civil war record.He was a professional soldier who lived by a code of honour.You make him and his brother appear like a pair of bitching clowns.
The consequences of sending that message back without approval was to undermine the authority of his brother,risk sowing confusion in the regiment at a critical stage and abandon his comrades who were at that moment fighting for their lives.
4. Falsehoods. I've NEVER contended 'everyone' knew this message came from TWC, what are you talking about?
No falsehood intended.But how can you offer and that Benteen, his troops, and all the people who heard Kanipe deliver his order added some heft to a mere Sergeant supposedly trustworthy enough to carry such messages.to support your speculation when all these witnesses thought the order was the genuine article and came from Custer? |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 25 2004 : 6:54:11 PM
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What does Graham think? He points out the numerous errors in Kanipe's story as typical of these men in the 1920's as an endnote to Kanipe's tale. How come you don't mention that? I have no doubt that if this happened as I think, TWC honestly thought he was carrying out his brother's wishes, and in fact he was. I've only claimed it as speculation that explains, logically and with nobody doing stuff not done before, these odd aspects.
You talk as if you knew TWC. This is the Custer Crush. His brother was court martialed, in part, for deserting his own command; several people in his command were considered murderers for shooting people without trial for the same crime - desertion - of which Custer was convicted. He gambled and lost his wife's inheritance. Please explain where one finds the shards of honor in that. Then, explain the newspaper story he was writing posing as an objective reporter about himself on this very campaign, a glowing tribute to himself.
Why would anyone think that Kanipe's order had not come from Custer? It's only later it turns out that Kanipe never heard Custer give it, and that he was only told by TWC that Custer gave it. Not Custer, and not Cooke. His brother. You have to wonder why Custer didn't turn around and send Martin, or have Cooke do it rather than adding another unnecessary layer. Well, actually, he did, didn't he. Sort of like he didn't know his brother was a step ahead.
Then, you have to explain why Kanipe didn't run across Boston Custer, yet Martin with a tired - and shot - horse met him and arrived only sixteen minutes after Kanipe. They couldn't have left Custer that far apart and Martin had to have been the slower. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 26 2004 : 11:00:24 AM
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DC
On the flimsiest of circumstantial evidence you suggest that TWC
usurped his commanding officers authority,
lied to Kanipe,
lied to McDougal,
abandoned Reno,
and risked sending the packtrain off the radar [cross country]where Martin might not have found it.Why?Because he anticipated his brother's wishes 19 minutes[19 DC]before Custer thought it necessary to send for the packs.
He gambled and lost his wife's inheritance. Please explain where one finds the shards of honor in that.
These men,Custer and his peers did four things.They drank,gambled,whored and fought.Custer probably dined out on tales of how he blew his wife's fortune.The honour Ispeak of is the honour of the regimental mess.Keogh and Calhoun foregoing a possible chance of escape and staying to fight.Reno risking his life searching for a fallen comrade.Even Benteen stopping to aid his defeated comrades.If TWC did as you suggest it was best he died in the battle.
Let Bacchus' sons be not dismayed
But join with me, each jovial blade
Come, drink and sing and lend your aid
To help me with the chorus:
You DC have been vigorious in your defence of the officers of the 7th.
Your unromantic logic and insight into human nature has much to commend it.But this is not your finest hour,for shame.
Instead of spa, we'll drink brown ale
And pay the reckoning on the nail;
No man for debt shall go to jail
From Garryowen in glory.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 26 2004 : 12:47:27 PM
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No Wilde, that's not what I say.
I say that TWC, after years with his brother, HAD the authority to anticipate in this manner. It wasn't official, it just was. And everyone was used to it. He could well have heard his brother say to Cooke "Let's bring the train up" and while the two of them talked he rushed off to do it. While he was there with Kanipe, events prevented him from informing his brother, his brother later sends Martin. No proof. No conspiracy. No awful intent.
Also, absolutely no evidence. But a train of circumstance and logic that explains without ludicrous scenario the two messages which people feel compelled to interpret as precise and different and sent exactly as they were so close together by the same guy for specific - and military - reasons. In order to show Custer was militarily flawless they construct this ridiculous scenario that makes no sense, neither to me nor anyone because they cannot ever agree on the reasons, the execution, or result.
Okay. Page 272 Gray. Benteen meets Kanipe @ 3:42. Martin at 3:58. Fifty eight less forty two is .....nineteen? Sixteen outside of Ireland, mate. Have someone freshen that for you and clear your abacus.
Custer didn't drink, supposedly, and didn't whore, less convincingly, at least after marriage.
And no meeting of the Custer-Crush All-Male Fan Club Initiation Ceremony is complete without a rendition of Garry Owen, which is thought to explain something, anything.
Yikes. I pass. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on October 26 2004 12:50:13 PM |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 26 2004 : 1:51:05 PM
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Okay. Page 272 Gray. Benteen meets Kanipe @ 3:42. Martin at 3:58. Fifty eight less forty two is .....nineteen? Sixteen outside of Ireland, mate. Have someone freshen that for you and clear your abacus.
The action we are discussing takes place with Custer's battalion.Kanipe departs 3.15,Martin 3.34.NNNNNNineteen minutes DC.If you are intent on hanging an innocent man at least get the timing right.Do that much for him.
He could well have heard his brother say to Cooke "Let's bring the train up" and while the two of them talked he rushed off to do it. While he was there with Kanipe, events prevented him from informing his brother, his brother later sends Martin. No proof. No conspiracy. No awful intent.
That's just pathetic.Two maybe's to convict a man.This professional soldier ,holder of his country's highest award rushing about like an excited child.And let's note that you have changed anticipation to overhearing in spite of you offering evidence that there was no connection between Custer and himself.
For TWC to send that order he had to lie.
Also, absolutely no evidence. But a train of circumstance and logic .
No you cannot conjure up a scenario based on no evidence and apply logic to it,which is what you are doing.
I say that TWC, after years with his brother, HAD the authority to anticipate in this manner.
What is the point of having authority to anticipate when the rest of the officer corps are not obliged to comply?You get around this by lieing? |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 26 2004 : 4:28:46 PM
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You're right, his departure is given at 3:15.
I'm not intent on hanging a man. What I am suggesting is that he did stuff beyond station of which his brother approved and had for a long time. Ergo, he's done nothing of which to be convicted. You're the one insisting he did something wrong if my scenario holds, not me. I think he was being a good officer and brother and being proactive.....actually doing Cooke's job, who even as adjutant, you notice, doesn't appear as a personality in any story, and rather vanishes. Technically, the adjutant of some years had power and gravitas, like Bourke for Crooke, but really, without that note all he'd be recalled for is the hair and being fleet afoot. TWC was Custer's go-to guy, not the official adjutant.
Further, I have a bigger problem that's in Martin's inquest testimony - but not in the Custer Myth - Martin says Custer called his adjutant, which Gray thinks is TWC in order to meld the stories, and sent a messenger back. But it sounds like he's repeating a story that he heard rather than saw, at least in aggregate with the Custer Myth. However, it does wobble my theory. Some.
Still, in many of the tales TWC seemingly acted as his brother's whip above station. Some, including posters here and Gray, refer to TWC as Custer's adjutant/aide. If you sub a different name, you'd wonder what the hell was going on, sometimes.
And the command did comply with this arrangement, Wilde, which is my point and most curious. Had for years. It was always assumed TWC spoke for his brother. I gave you the example at the Crow's Nest, which you ignore. And this at MTC environs is just more of the same. No crime, no mutiny. Which, by the way, it wouldn't be in any case given good faith. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 27 2004 : 05:54:53 AM
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I'm not intent on hanging a man. What I am suggesting is that he did stuff beyond station of which his brother approved and had for a long time.
DC
Custer's retrospective approval of his brothers actions do not exonerate Tom they just incriminate Custer himself in a despicable system where senior officers are lied to and others abandoned.
As your evidence is so slim as to be non existent I suggest we we leave Tom and George with their honour intact.
Thanks for the correction on the time sequence |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 27 2004 : 09:39:24 AM
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Who had been lied to? Who said anyone had been lied to?
You're more than welcome to let it lay, but the evidence through the years is that TWC acted as Custer's personal aide. There is no reason for the Kanipe mission with the Martin message, especially since Martin's is less hysterical. Because of Martin's exhausted horse, later shot - factual evidence - it rises to unliklihood that Martin covered mostly the same ground in the same time, and therefore left closer to Kanipe than Gray hypothesizes. That all suggests two different people sent them. I'm also curious how Boston Custer and Kanipe missed each other.
As for the 'honour', you find Custer's convictions and past actions (desertion, murder, gambling, borderline financial dealings, leaving his wife destitute) amusing and boys being boys but get all inflated and sputter over the mere suggestion he might have had a command structure not found in the manual. That's the Custer Crush risen high and held in the heart of the Company Clerk. First, because I accuse them of no crime or dishonorable act here but you insist I do so you can defend them from that charge. Second, because if you read enough you'd know that these sorts of command structures permeate combat units long in the field and are less than shocking. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 27 2004 : 1:59:53 PM
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Who had been lied to? Who said anyone had been lied to?
Your trustworthy Kanipe said TWC told him Custer had issued the instructions.And you state I've said no different then that everyone thought it came from GAC So Kanipe reports to McDougal and what does he say ? 1/I have orders from the CO or 2/I have orders from TWC.The evidence you have posted would indicate the former thus a LIE WITH ALL ITS CONSEQUENCES.
but get all inflated and sputter over the mere suggestion he might have had a command structure not found in the manual.
The command structure you suggest is so asinine that it would not be found in the Sioux manual. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 27 2004 : 3:08:08 PM
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No, Wilde. For it to be a lie, TWC would have to think he was issuing an order against GAC's wishes. He was not. Kanipe would have to think TWC made it up, and he had no reason to. And, he had not. I suggest nothing of the sort.
You're being dense, Wilde. This actual suggested command 'structure' existed in units in every war. Who is the Captian going to confide and seek advice from, or trust most: the new unbloodied 90 day wonder Lt. or the NCO he's been with for a year and a half of combat? Custer trusted his brother and used him. Big deal. Armies really concerned about such things would never allow three brothers, a brother in law, and a nephew in a small combat unit. Primarily because of just this sort of issue. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 27 2004 : 4:01:16 PM
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No, Wilde. For it to be a lie, TWC would have to think he was issuing an order against GAC's wishes. He was not. Kanipe would have to think TWC made it up, and he had no reason to. And, he had not. I suggest nothing of the sort.
No DC it has nothing to do with the actual order it is deceiving the recipient into believing it came from Custer that's the lie.And we will never know if Custer would have approved of it at 3'15 because TWC as you suggest from the manner of the second message never informed him.
Who is the Captian going to confide and seek advice from,Where was the confiding and seeking advice here?You suggest the complete opposite .
Refering to people as dense is just bad manners and does nothing for your case.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 30 2004 : 4:42:40 PM
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| Wild, you've contended that TWC is lying; I'm not. GAC wanted the train brought up. No lie. I'm also not able to say it's true, but just a handy story, fully in keeping with how the brothers interacted, that would explain the two messengers so close together with the same goals. Given Martin's wounded and exhausted horse, they proabaly left closer together than they arrived at Benteen. I'm one who sees no panic or anything in the note, but Kanipe's instructions were rather hysterical. Since I can't understand what would have calmed things down in such a short time, it strikes me they were sent by different people. This is all dependent upon Martin and Kanipe telling the truth. Iffy, that. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - November 02 2004 : 1:28:56 PM
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Given Martin's wounded and exhausted horse, they proabaly left closer together than they arrived at Benteen.
I think you are a bit mixed up here DC.If the state of Martin's horse was a factor in the time sequence then it would have effected the arrival time not the departure time.
I really don't think you can mess with Gray's speculation to support your own speculation.It just gets a bit ridiculous.
An order at 3.15 to bring packsis a far different order than bring packs at 3.34.Your main reason for supporting this theory is based on the relationship Custer had with his brother.Well his relationship with Reno and Benteen the senior officers of the regiment was not the best.Further these officers were civil war vets,both [I think] brevet cols.and very unlikley to takes orders from baby brother.Even Reno a major had to plead with Benteen to halt.
Kanipe had to say who the order was from and you posted that all witnesses had the impression the order came from Custer.If that is so then either Tom or the trustworthy Kanipe lied. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 04 2004 : 1:17:42 PM
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| No Wild. I'm saying that if they arrive sixteen minutes apart, and one of the horses - described as exhausted before the journey - is wounded during the journey, that horse is unlikely to have made the same speed as the other or anything like it, and Gray's guess is probably wrong as to their departure times, and would be closer together. The actual facts here are: Martin's testimony the horse was exhausted; the visual proof of the horse being shot by Benteen, others, and Martin; the arrival times, with Gray's theory supported by the observations of others. The unknown is the departure time, and no known activity is threatened by them coming closer together. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on November 04 2004 1:19:56 PM |
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Benteen's order
Topic Locked
