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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - August 16 2004 : 2:27:36 PM
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Wiggs,
Three miles from Reno Hill brings you to Deep, not Cedar, Coulee. The Bighorn is a different river. The two couriers did indeed arrive less than 43 minutes apart: sixteen minutes apart, less than half the time, and neither one mentions Custer's position, not even which side of the river he's on. Benteen did speed up after receiving Custer's message. You have to judge appropriate horse speed by the state of the horse and its ability to sustain a speed for the required distance and the activity required upon arrival, then unknown by Benteen.
Nobody has ever said the units didn't have general ideas of each other's location, but only Custer had an exact idea of another unit's: Reno's. His own messages did not inform. Precise detail is often not available during combat, but Custer wasn't in combat, and there was certainly time to give an informative and good order. In any case, that's his exact job. It was simply a lazy, crappy message dignified by the term 'order.'
According to Gray, Custer's men walked - not trotted - from Cedar Coulee to MTC and then stopped to adjust saddles in preparation for action. To keep the dust down, etc.
There is no evidence that Custer looked longingly back for Benteen, or that he could see their dust. The Sioux hadn't all day, and now all of Custer's dust was suspended in the air. There is also no evidence he knew of Kanipe's ride, either. It's just been assumed. 'Headquarters' was certainly disorganized enough.
Somewhere in here, at least two men stated their horses failed.
Weir didn't know anything that Benteen didn't. He rushed ahead, couldn't defend his move, retreated, and necessitated the needless loss of men in that retreat which, all things considered, was well done.
Wild,
Benteen wasn't aware of anything other than there had been a charge and the Indians were running. There was no shambles at Weir Point whatsoever, and once Benteen brought everyone under control, they made a disciplined retreat losing men and horses because of Weir's bad move. The horrendoplasty at Reno Hill with the impedimenta moving out was halted and reversed by Benteen and Reno. Benteen is not guilty of indecision or wasting time because the decisions made were not his to make, and he effectively established his authority over the Hill while still including Reno in his functions to maintain respectful order. That was wise, difficult, and gutsy.
Everyone forgets that they thought Custer alive and likely angry. Benteen had set himself up as the lightening rod if that had been true. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 16 2004 : 3:15:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
It wasn't any mystery that Custer had headed north from Reno Hill. His trail went so, and since it's rather improbable that any of his men had sprouted wings and fluttered south, Benteen could put two and two together. That would not answer where he was though. At the village? In the hills? Running away to Terry? Nobody knew. They wondered.
You're still redefining words. This time, "slow". No, Wiggs, going slow means going slow. A person could ride thirty miles an hour and still come in too late; that does not mean that he was "slow". Benteen picked up speed after receiving the Martin note; you lack any evidence of negligence. Your criticisms are baseless and unjust.
None of this resolves the confusion about where Benteen was expected to go.
R. Larsen
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Edited by - Anonymous Poster8169 on August 16 2004 3:22:58 PM |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 17 2004 : 11:19:24 AM
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b]None of this resolves the confusion about where Benteen was expected to go.
Some people here think Benteen had a choice.He could either go to the big village or to Custer.If he goes to the big village that's all he will probably see.If he goes to Custer he will see not only Custer but also the big village thus covering both possible interpretations.
DC, Benteen was in no doubt that Custer wanted the packs brought forward to him as rapidly as possible.He would as an experienced soldier know that Custer would not order ammo forward to some inderterminate location such as the big village .
My point is this.If Benteen knows that Custer wants the ammo brought to HQ,when the second order arrives telling Benteen himself to bring the ammo then why would he think it was to anywhere else other than HQ.
This defense of Benteen's actions makes him look like a fool.He has one order and is aware of the other one and the regiment is going into action and people are saying he is confused,does not know where his unit or the ammo have been directed.Come on lads get a grip.
There is no evidence that Custer looked longingly back for Benteen,
Custer was probably not aware that Cooke had not interpreted his order correctly,had given it to a messenger who did not understand it and that it was recieved by an officer who was somewhat indecisive.Poor Custer.
There was no shambles at Weir Point [/b]
Hold on a minute.What was the purpose of the advance to Weir point?Reno certainly did not want to go.The trip to Weir point was uncoordinated, unplanned and triggered by a runaway troop.The entire exercise was pointless.To leave possibly the only worthwhile defensive position and spread the command out over a mile in the presence of thousands hostiles was about as stupid as Custer's manoeuverings at LSH.It was also another demoralising retreat |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 17 2004 : 11:46:02 AM
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Wild, I again have reservations about your own alleged military background.
Nobody thinks Benteen had a 'choice' of two options. That construct is only demanded by you and your inner Company Clerk and others who think such a boneheaded message is an order demanding literal compliance based on guesses or the noose later.
To bypass Reno and his wounded with all the extra ammo would be a failure of duty. To cut off ammo boxes in the presence of the enemy and leave them for the enemy is yet another moronic move. To think Custer wanted to be burdened with the packs is absurd. He merely wanted closer access to the ammo, reasonably. He had no need of it, as it turned out. His men were nowhere near out of ammo.
In any case, there was no way to get the packs to Custer, who kept moving pointlessly away.
You said there was a shambles at Weir Point. Such did not occur, and Benteen's handling of the retreat demanded by the actions of others and setting up the defense did much to restore confidence, and there is no conflicting testimony to that. The 'runaway' troop responded to the commander's ride with his orderly to find Custer. A two man 'runaway.' It went in order and returned in order. It was stupid, but this is not to be confused with the horror parade of the wounded later under Reno.
How do you know Cooke didn't write the order down correctly? For that matter, how do you know Custer sent it at all? Martin? The guy still wasn't at home with English three years later at the Inquest.
These 'orders' and the repetitive couriers to Benteen on his scout do not produce a picture of a commander who knows what he is doing or has a clear plan. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 17 2004 : 2:52:32 PM
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DC:
Would say that unless Custer wasn't able to give orders(!!) a written note signed by the the Adjt.would most likely have come from Custer.
And received by Benteen, would have been assumed to have come from Custer, absent any other evidence to the contrary.
I think the couriers and that note to Benteen is sort of the general's acknowledgement that sending Benteen off in the first place was a mistake. Even not knowing if Benteen found anything or not (he didn't really know,for sure, did he??), he wants him back.
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 17 2004 : 2:59:57 PM
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Wild, I again have reservations about your own alleged military background.
Buck private in a survey coy.
Nobody thinks Benteen had a 'choice' of two options.
I Thought this part of the exchange was dealing with the interpretation of Cooke's message.Destination B.V. or Custer as per 69 None of this resolves the confusion about where Benteen was expected to go.
To bypass Reno and his wounded with all the extra ammo would be a failure of duty.
Benteen has no obligation or duty to rescue Reno and his rabble.He is part of an attack force.Reno's wounded neutralise 33% of the attacking force.Is it not true that Yates left at least 20 of his troop to their fate when their horses gave out?Compassion is all very well after the battle but at a most crucial point?
In any case, there was no way to get the packs to Custer, who kept moving pointlessly away.
Hindsight DC, benteen did not know this.
You said there was a shambles at Weir Point.
In military terms it was a shambles.No purpose,no orders,no advance guard,no rear guard.They were spread out over a mile.If the Indians had attacked the flank rather than the front they were mince meat.
How do you know Cooke didn't write the order down correctly? For that matter, how do you know Custer sent it at all?
Just think of that DC. Custer now has a mad executive officer who sends off boneheaded messages without any authority to do so.Like I say poor Custer.
Benteen was a very lucky man because if Custer had survived........
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 17 2004 : 3:45:50 PM
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Wild, by paragraph
Um. Okay.
Don't understand you.
Regarding #1, in what Army? Hello? In battle is one thing. After, is another.
He knew it when the train came up and he'd been to Weir Pt., the combination of events that make it relevant.
It's my understanding this sort of thing happens a lot, and can be interpreted as showing initiative or being an idiot as reports require. In any case, Benteen wasn't responsible, and he brought it in in good shape.
Poor Custer trained these guys and selected them. If they were screw ups, that's his work. Someone was, in any case. No military officer I've heard offer an opinion on that note is kind. There was plenty of time to give actual information of value. There wasn't a plan because he didn't know the size of the village, the lay of the land, or anything, and when he did know those things, it was too late since Reno was in contact. Badly done. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 17 2004 : 3:49:42 PM
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Brent,
I agree, I'm being as picky on this side as Wild is on the other. THe point being is that the note is a failure of the commander. In aggregate with the several couriers sent to Benteen during the scout, this is an off kilter, not centered commander. His command from noon on just stinks. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on August 17 2004 3:51:27 PM |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 18 2004 : 07:47:41 AM
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DC at this stage it is obvious that we disagree on two fundamentals.
1/Benteen had an independent command reporting only to Custer.2/As part of an attacking force he was not obliged to assist defeated units.
If the chain of command went according to rank,Custer would have ordered Reno to direct Benteen to report to HQ with the pack train.If you are operating a chain of command system based on rank then it goes both ways up and down.Reno was given responsibility for 3 troops and had no instructions regarding Benteen or the packs.Reno,Benteen and McDougal reported directly to Custer.
If you think the chain of command went on rank explain how control is maintained.
The best way to guarantee defeat in battle is to instill in your subcommanders the need to suspend attacks in order to render assistance to the wounded or defeated.In this case 3 defeated troops means 7 troops neutralised.Great if the enemy know this.
One of the reasons Reno's skirmish line started to unravel was that troopers began assisting wounded to the rear.Many armies actually have battle police to stop this practice.
What Benteen did can be defended on moral grounds,on compassionate grounds and any of those other civilian emotional reasons.
I don't condemn Benteen for his actions.This was not the civil war.The fate of the nation was not at stake.It was as I think you posted way back a police action.Benteen saw a crisis in front of him rather than a possible one 3 miles further on ,and acted on that.
He had 2 awful hours but perhaps 36 hours where he performed more than adequately.
But defend Benteen on his compassion not on his military actions. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 18 2004 : 09:48:14 AM
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Sorry, Wild, I don't agree. What Benteen did was militarily sound, and it was not primarily 'civilian' compassion that held him where he was. It was common sense. I don't buy, and don't shrink from taking on, this weary tone of the military vet of vast combat experience talking down to us civvies. Some civvies have seen more action than vets. In any case, evidence doesn't support you, in the specifics or in general.
I realize certain armies - the Nazi's, the Red, or those of tin pots - had or have guys who shot troops retreating or who enforced the duties of 'battle police.' We don't, absent NCOs. The US supposedly had a fighter wing to shoot down bombers which hightailed it to Sweden with 'engine trouble,' but this may have been more effective as a rumor. In England and America, rather, medics and such were always given high attention because command knew how good for morale it was as well as being an efficient way to save people to fight again.
But to the point, what Custer was doing was not militarily sound: incoherently dividing to attack, but not, in range of a superior enemy. This apparently was noticed right off by those who got to Sharpshooter Hill, or Weir Point, or even Reno Hill and saw the village.
There is a difference between stopping in the middle of an attack, which Benteen was not doing, to assist wounded and stopping as Benteen did in his puzzlement to assist Reno, having noted that if there were an appropriate crossing relevant to the village, it was a hell of long ways up. He was following Custer's trail and that didn't seem to lead to anything helpful to Reno and the overall attack. Again: once cavalry attacked, it had to win or retreat. It could not stop in contact with the enemy and retain much viability as a military entity. Reno attacked and retreated. Custer did or didn't but stopped anyway and got clocked.
Benteen had advantage of slightly better ground, ammo, and pack boxes and animals to use as barricades which Custer did not. He knew ground, and instead of sticking to the high ground - Sharpshooter or Weir Point, where there was small cover - he went for the correct spot. Custer went for exactly the worst in his neck of the woods: the coverless high ground to allow more enemy to see and shoot at them. "High ground" was defended as the correct choice in this forum a while back, by.....
The chain of command DID go on rank, and control is maintained by giving subordinates good orders along with the overall point of your plan, fall back scenario, and absent any other form of communication, keeping them in contact. Custer had time and opportunity but did none of that. These were not independent commands, Wild. I cannot believe you insist on this: they were under Custer, who simply lost control of them. Otherwise, what was the pack train to do absent orders? According to you, if Custer's two couriers never reached the train or Benteen, McDougall was a separate command answering only to Custer, and he could decide what to do regardless of what a Major Reno or senior Captain Benteen told him. That's ridiculous, Wild. That's why there is rank and why, in the US anyway, there is a bashful preference for officers with IQ's in three digits.
That's not being a soldier, that's playing soldier and finding solace in either over-literal interpretation or precedent to remove need for thought or common sense.
What you suggest is almost as mind numbing as those who've slapped their foreheads in the recent past and announced to the world that Custer was doing a 'flank attack' and that this was an accepted and sustained military concept, and spent time and money to prove that it was, indeed, a 'flank attack,' and offering examples from history of other 'flank attacks,' and concluding that those who think Custer a fool just don't understand military tactics like those experienced alpha males, such as the proud authors, who investigated and discovered the term 'flank attack.' Which was what Custer was doing. And we proved it. Harump.
Four year olds knew that, and the complaints are not about the concepts - so much fun to pontificate about - but the competence of execution.
This is followed by those who love to say 'tactical disintegration' which sounds ever so technical and furrowed brow military-like and imparts military discipline to those who suffered it; this, rather than 'flailed around and got shot' which is what it means. Body location has suggested 'bunching', another favorite term, to the eagle-eyed, rather than 'dead horse for cover', the more logical conclusion.
I continue to suspect that the simplest and most logical assumptions about what happened will, in the end, prove to be true. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 18 2004 : 12:58:18 PM
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PS. Forgot this ---Regarding #1, in what Army?
The deathless army of Northern Virginia of course. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 18 2004 : 2:27:44 PM
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I realize certain armies - the Nazi's, the Red, or those of tin pots - had or have guys who shot troops retreating or who enforced the duties of 'battle police.' We don't
Well DC it goes all the way back to the Romans who decimated their legions who did not perform.French and Brits did the same in WW1.And sure Uncle Sam shot one poor unfortunate individual for desertion in WW2.Armies do not like their troops stopping to pick up debris.And this is what Benteen did.
Did Benteen use 4 troops and the reserve ammo to save defeated troops ?I cannot for the life of me see how you can state that this was militarily sound.If Benteen's purpose was to save Reno why did he then risk all by that advance to Weir point?Was this also militarily sound.
These were not independent commands, Wild. I cannot believe you insist on this: they were under Custer,
They were independent from each other and answered directly to Custer.If Reno had been in charge of the Pack Train when Benteen recieved Cooke's message would he have been obliged to turn his unit about and ride back to report to Reno?
McDougall was a separate command answering only to Custer, and he could decide what to do regardless of what a Major Reno or senior Captain Benteen told him.
Exactly as was demonstrated by Benteen's curt dismissal of Kanipe.In fact as I pointed out way back it was my opinion that Cooke's message placed Benteen in charge of the pack Train and what was your response?
If rank was the order of the day then this would mean officers were responsible for all units and formations commanded by officers junior to them.Reno was not responsible for Benteen's unit,likewise Benteen was not responsible for the McDougal's unit.Do you see the absolute madness of what you are suggesting?Lt Mathey was obliged to take orders from McDougal,Benteen,Reno and Custer.
What you suggest is almost as mind numbing as those who've slapped their foreheads in the recent past and announced to the world that Custer was doing a 'flank attack'
Sure what's in a name ?Let's just say if the Indians had hit the middle of Benteen's militarily sound strung out over a mile column they would have ended up like Custer.
those who think Custer a fool just don't understand military tactics
I'm not defending Custer but questioning Benteen's actions.
This is followed by those who love to say 'tactical disintegration'
But that's the Yanks for you.What did Wilde say about the Brits and the Yanks?One people seperated by the same language.I saw a young grunt on tv decribe his humvee as not being mission competantor in the real world broken down.I bet Weir said he got a visual of the LS.
I continue to suspect that the simplest and most logical assumptions about what happened will, in the end, prove to be true.
Agreed, everything defaults to human nature---compassion. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 18 2004 : 4:11:35 PM
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by paragraph
1. You keep saying Benteen is responsible for the advance to Weir Point. He was not. Wonderful about the Romans, so relevant, and there was one example of a British officer shooting thirty men in the British army (there were a few others) and there was the deserved French Mutiny in WWI, none of which reflects 'battle police,' nor is it syllogistic to LBH. And that one (1)poor private Stivac (?)in WWII. Compelling evidence, all. Benteen's purpose was not to save Reno, per se, but the 7th. He needed Reno as much as the reverse.
2. Benteen wouldn't have been the target of the message if Reno was in charge. Think, Wild.
3. No, that's not what rank means, nor the purpose it serves. It means that when the commanding officer is no longer available, rank asserts itself. The very reason rank was conceived. The 'dismissal' of Kanipe transpired well before the actions you are allegedly describing.
4. Again, Benteen's advance to Weir was not strung out over a mile. You're fabricating in Wiggs' Country. That's the impedimenta mess twenty minutes or more later, which he turned around.
5. Without merit. You blame him for stuff over which he had no actual command.
6. and 7. Okay |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 18 2004 : 4:56:14 PM
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1. You keep saying Benteen is responsible for the advance to Weir Point. He was not.
Page 313 of Gray states that Benteen admitted leaving without orders.
So much for his adherence to rank.So much for his concern for Reno and the wounded,so much for saving the 7th.
2. Benteen wouldn't have been the target of the message if Reno was in charge. Think, Wild.
So Benteen was in charge of the packs?Try remembering your own posts.
It means that when the commanding officer is no longer available,
That would have been about 5.30??????
Again, Benteen's advance to Weir was not strung out over a mile. You're fabricating in Wiggs' Country.
Weir was at Weir point when Reno was leaving Reno hill.I think it is about a mile from R.H. TO W.P,that would constitute being strung out to me. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 18 2004 : 5:38:12 PM
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There were no orders given for the advance. Benteen didn't leave against orders. He was following Weir under the impression Reno had ordered the advance. Not logical in retrospect but, under the conditions, understandable. You're melodramatizing his movement and trying to apply it to an argument in which he had no role. He'd already demonstrated his regard for the wounded and rank, and of course - for his own sake if nothing else - he'd have concern to preserve the 7th. Your charge has no merit.
Don't follow. If Reno were in charge of the packs, Custer wouldn't send a courier to a lesser officer to bring them, would he now? I remember my own posts. You've forgotten what you're talking about and blathering.
Custer ceased being available when Martin left him. About two hours previous at 3:30. One exclamation point is sufficient.
Weir Point is a mile and a half from Reno Hill. Benteen's group advanced in order. They retreated in order. The only part that was a mess was Reno's advance, over twenty minutes later, to about half way between, and then the retreat with the wounded. Benteen turned them around with Reno, but had not ordered them forward as he had not ordered Weir forward. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 19 2004 : 5:31:17 PM
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Benteen didn't leave against orders.
I did not say that.Read the post.
He was following Weir under the impression Reno had ordered the advance. Not logical in retrospect
Criminal.He rode off with 3 troops because of an impression ?
Don't follow. If Reno were in charge of the packs, Custer wouldn't send a courier to a lesser officer to bring them, would he now? I remember my own posts. You've forgotten what you're talking about and blathering.
My point was that Cooke's message made Benteen responsible for the packs.You disagree, yet hold that Cooke's message would have gone to the commander of the packs.There is no logic to your arguement.Is Benteen responsible or is he not for the packs?
Custer ceased being available when Martin left him. About two hours previous at 3:30. One exclamation point is sufficient.
Wrong DC.A little research would show that a messenger leaving Benteen at 3:58 had a good chance of reaching Custer by 4:30.16 minutes before Curley succeeded in making his escape.
Weir Point is a mile and a half from Reno Hill. Benteen's group advanced in order. They retreated in order.
And like Custer they would have got the chop in order.The only option on Reno hill was to dig in and fortify the position but as you say Benteen was motivated by non English speaking messengers,assumptions and impressions.
For two crucial hours that man was pathetic.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 19 2004 : 6:40:26 PM
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By paragraph.
No, Wild. You continue to say Benteen was responsible for the move to Weir. He was not, and you can't use the move as indicative of his command. The unit under him and those he organized for the retreat performed well. There was no shambles, as you insist.
Not criminal, in any sense, and apparently common under combat circumstances where 'impressions' are often all you have. That's the sort of over-the-top accusation that is all too prevalent in Custer Talk.
No, again. This evolved when we are talking about packs vs. ammo. If Benteen was in charge of the packs, then the note cannot be construed to mean it just meant ammo. If you believe the note meant ammo, then it's difficult to put Benteen in charge of the packs, with which he would not be. You cannot have it both ways. You try to cut and paste. I don't think that note or Kanipe's message were conceived to mean more than than everybody rush to the village while somehow bringing and protecting the packs and it'll work out.
Martin says Custer was under attack when he left or soon after, speaking of little research. And if there is a more ominous view anywhere than from Reno Hill north to Weir Point under those conditions, I cannot imagine it. Weir went carefully. The chances of anyone reaching Custer after Martin left are, at best, highly questionable, and dismal for a single messenger. We don't know when Curley took off. Neither does Gray. All past MTC is absolute guess.
Why would they? They didn't, in any case. You resent Benteen for not exercising command not his. Reno was addled and failed, but not Benteen, during that one hour period of confusion on Reno Hill. Nothing wrong with what Benteen did to that point, and no member of the 7th ever suggested he had screwed up. And they'd know, after all. In later years as their own failures and confusions of battle were forgot and became apparent to them, the woulda/shoulda/coulda's appeared, like Edgerly saying "Of course, we should have gone" to the sound of firing.
You never answered my question to clear up your contention about the four separate commands: if Martin and Kanipe had never arrived, what was the train to do when it got near the LBH? Which trail was it obligated to follow? Could the train even be authorized to distribute ammo without Custer's permission? I mean, you say rank doesn't matter since Benteen was obligated to obey the last order - or messages - of Custer, and apparently not exercise common sense and to bypass Reno and follow Custer's trail. With some, but not all packs. Or something.
I'd contend that Benteen, having been told by Reno that Custer had promised support and vanished over an hour previous was not compelled to lurch pointlessly forward leaving a largely dismounted group of wounded and defeated men to await packs. The military situation had changed. I'd agree they could have sent a scout north earlier both for accurate estimation of village size and clues about Custer. But they didn't.
When Custer failed to follow his own plan - for whatever reason, he failed to support Reno or appear as a factor for over an hour after Reno charged - the military obligation of the 7th shifted; it was not to rescue Custer, or even find him, by further dividing the regiment. It was to survive and remain a coherent force to negatively affect the enemy without their commander and his immediate units which were, in any case, reasonably assumed to have been strong enough to survive and to have headed north and left them after a fight. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Smcf
Captain
Status: offline |
Posted - August 20 2004 : 10:07:06 AM
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As a professional soldier, Benteen was viewed in very high regard by the Army. A model soldier in the eyes of many. The idea that his behaviour was that of a spoilt sulker just doesn't ring true. That he thought the note was another one of Custer's off-the-cuff "whims" and he felt he was free to interpret it, just might be the only charge that could be laid on him. Certainly, no official admonishment of any of Benteen's actions that day is evident to me.
As has been pointed out, Benteen fully expected to meet up with Custer at some point and was hardly likely to engage in actions which he felt could lead to a Courts Martial.
As a side note, is there any official report which contends that Custer's troops ran out of ammo? If they did not, then the whole matter is a bit of a non-issue. I reckon Reno's and Benteen's professional opinion's of how the battle went are pretty much in accord with Indian accounts, second hand or no. My gut feeling is still the panic/rout scenario prefaced earlier with Reno.
Another side note - I'm now not sure whether or not Benteen was aware of Terry's instructions at the time. He certainly pointed out his own view of Custer's insubordination in his report of 4th July. |
Edited by - Smcf on August 20 2004 10:39:08 AM |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 20 2004 : 1:27:49 PM
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No, Wild. You continue to say Benteen was responsible for the move to Weir.
Benteen without orders took 3 troops and followed Weir,that is an indisputable fact DC.This occured at 5:22 yet further on in your post you dismiss the possibility of a scout travelling this route at 3:34 and yet you still see merit in Benteen's action.
There was no shambles, as you insist.
At one stage there was a mile and a half between Benteen's 4 troops and Reno's wounded and packs.That is what I would describe as a shambles.
Just in passing.The exchange between Weir and Benteen must have been very amusing."Hey Weir what are your orders."Don't have any do you?"Well no, I thought you had the orders"
Not criminal, in any sense, and apparently common under combat circumstances where 'impressions' are often all you have.
impressions are what commanding officers have.These impressions are then relayed to junior officers in the form of orders which they are obliged to follow.
Impressions? You can't have every two bit junior officer going about fouling up operations because he is having one of his "impressions"
I don't think that note or Kanipe's message were conceived to mean more than than everybody rush to the village while somehow bringing and protecting the packs and it'll work out.
It does not say to the big village.I just cannot see the logic in this reasoning.The big village without Custer means nothing.
Martin says Custer was under attack when he left or soon after, Skaddling was the word used not attack.
The chances of anyone reaching Custer after Martin left are, at best, highly questionable,
Boston,Boyer.
if Martin and Kanipe had never arrived, what was the train to do when it got near the LBH? Which trail was it obligated to follow?Good chance the Indians would have been in possession of Reno Hill, so I don't think they would be too worried about which trail to follow.
I'd contend that Benteen, having been told by Reno that Custer had promised support and vanished over an hour previous was not compelled to lurch pointlessly forward leaving a largely dismounted group of wounded and defeated men to await packs.
Well now DC,is that not exactly what he did in fact do and without orders on an impression?
the military obligation of the 7th shifted;
At 4:20 ? |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 20 2004 : 3:57:42 PM
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1. At 3:38, Benteen hadn't seen Kanipe yet, and was under no impression anything was wrong or that he was needed above the norm. Where was this 'scout' to originate and when and where would he have met Custer? Saying what to Custer? Without direct but assumed orders in the confusion, Benteen moved forward from Reno Hill following Weir. It's the sort of assumption that can be construed as constructive initiative under the circumstance.
2. You now imply the distance between as indicative of a shambles, although the portion involving Benteen clearly was not. But originally you said 'at' Weir Point and the events there. Now, just the distance between the four companies and Reno is in and of itself a shambles? I see. And even though Benteen hadn't brought the wounded forward on foot, he's responsible? I see. Your envisioned conversation would not have been improved if they had all received instruction on the level of Custer's written orders: "Come on." Reno wasn't functioning, and they had to work around that, plus everything else.
3. Your Clerk, again. Officers are expected to show initiative in the face of command failure. Custer had failed and wasn't available, Reno had failed and was, and Benteen therefore did okay. Weir screwed up, agreed.
4. So, if it doesn't say 'to' the village what does it mean? Come to Custer? Fine. Whatever it meant, out the window with Reno's situation and request.
5. Martin said the Indians were skedadling. He later said Custer was under attack just after he left him at 3:34, and his horse got shot on his trip to Benteen. Graham, page 290. Boston is said to have then passed him on the run, and for all we know he was wounded in the trip. The Sioux were on Reno Hill or thereabouts at that time, because Martin says he was shot at around the time he saw Reno's men in the valley.
6. True, Boston's arrival must have been under fire as Martin's leaving was, if Martin was correct, but the story is bolstered by his shot horse. Boyeur's 'arrival' is only a reasonable guess on different ground.
7. Yes, after he saw to their needs and some organization. Weir rode off, Benteen thought - as other's thought and had reason to think - that he had orders from Reno to do so. Benteen wasn't a two bit officer, Weir was, and in the Army under battlefield confusion, officers are expected to show initiative and good sense, which Benteen did. That things in hindsight are clearer and suggest some fifty-fifty calls were wrong does NOT condemn him.
8. As I said previously, when Martin left Custer and Custer didn't or couldn't communicate with his command any longer, and had not issued contingency plans, and had not, in the course of the day, left an impression of clear goals or plans with anyone, and that which he had suggested revealed as not conforming to the land, the military obligation of the 7th shifted as Custer vanished. Custerphiles insist that it was the command's responsibility to correctly interpret orders and save Custer, rather than Custer's to have done a much better job. You don't divide forces when actually in contact with - and certainly not when forced to camp down the hall from - a numerically superior enemy without a clear and rational plan. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 22 2004 : 5:55:33 PM
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Hi DC
There is not much more I can add to my case against Benteen,other than to say that it was never based on an obligation to save Custer but rather on a failure to follow basic military principals.
The reasons you give for his coming to Reno's aid hang him for his abandoning of Reno and pointless advance to Weir Point.In your estimation his weaknesses in command become his strenghts.For example according to you, Weir screwed up but Benteen's following of this two bit officer is sound military judgement.
One final observation.When Benteen was working for Custer he did no more than go through the motions.When he was working for himself he was excellent.
Perhaps if I cannot compliment you on your reasoning I can on your English and humour.
Regards
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 22 2004 : 7:11:47 PM
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Wild,
He didn't 'abandon' Reno. What 'military principle' is violated? Name it. It won't apply to the situation at hand.
If the mass advance was pointless, it is in hindsight only that it appears so and this because he and others thought Weir had permission or had been ordered. These aren't weaknesses of Benteen's. That Reno Hill was a mess is uncontested, and that Reno had temporarily failed in command is uncontested. (That he was a 'coward' is, though.) Benteen, as number 3 and directly under an officer not functioning well, would have been ill advised to have forced a command change under these circumstances, and he did not. He did what he thought was best to rally and focus the men, and I can't imagine anyone doing better. Certainly nobody there did or came close. These confusing and, in retrospect, incorrect actions were not apparent as such at the time.
Further, here we go again, give one example of Benteen 'going through the motions' only. That's moronic. He was the only officer throughout who did well. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 23 2004 : 07:22:23 AM
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He didn't 'abandon' Reno. What 'military principle' is violated? Name it. It won't apply to the situation at hand.
He acted without orders dividing an already fragmented command in the presence of the enemy.He broke the chain of command in that he would have had to check with a junior officer [Weir]what Reno's orders were.Further he took not only his own troops but one of Reno's troops with him without permission.And the most puzzling action of all he waited 20 minutes to follow Weir.20 Minutes is surely enough time to check the situation with Reno.
If the mass advance was pointless, it is in hindsight only that it appears so
Not hindsight.Contemporaneous fact.Neither Reno or Benteen ordered this advance.And you have continiously defended Benteen's decision not to try to break through to Custer.If it was pointless at 4.20 then it was all the more so at 5.22
He did what he thought was best to rally and focus the men,On the contrary he sowed indecision and confusion through the command.He adhered to neither rank nor system.
Further, here we go again, give one example of Benteen 'going through the motions' only.
For one hour 4.20 to 5.22 he allowed events to run uncontrolled because he was going through the motions of playing junior to a shell shocked Reno
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 23 2004 : 09:40:01 AM
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by paragraph
1. Except for Custer, the command was united under Reno with the train approaching. You have to prove Reno couldn't order Benteen to stop and assist, which you cannot do, and/or that Benteen violated some military procedure in doing so, which you also cannot do. Ergo, Benteen was under Reno, and Benteen didn't 'take' Reno's company in violation of anything.
Benteen brought everyone under his wing. Weir left with an orderly, which Benteen many not have noticed. Than Edgerly and his company, which had been dismounted and assisting. Gray pretends on the time line that Weir and Edgerly left together, but they did not as the testimony states. Then Benteen. The seventeen and a half minutes is arguably a lot, but you can slice off a goodly amount for the period between Weir and Edgerly. Reno was burying people and not present himself periodically. They were not deserting Reno, nobody thought they were. Benteen made an assumption OR he constructed an official story later to cover up that Reno wasn't functioning well, which sometimes happens in combat. They needed to get to the high ground for an observation of the village size, anyway, to see if Custer was about.
2. Only if the advance was to 'break through to Custer.' There was no 'decision' to break through to Custer, and none not to, because the situation demanded neither, and there would have been no point. They had no idea where the commander was other than north somewhere. At 4:20 Benteen himself had just arrived at Reno Hill. He had to distribute ammo to Reno's men from his own, assess the situation, assist the wounded, note the missing horses. The decision to ride north had no merit, in retrospect, but even the lamest imagination can conceive that they wanted to do something, anything to see what their situation was. Coincidentally it removed the men from focussing on the fiasco about them at Reno.
3. An example of sowing indecision and/or confusion. One.
4. If he had sat on his horse and done nothing, perhaps. And of course, he WAS junior to a shell shocked Reno. Tell us, Wild, what Benteen should have done, why, and when, and with what units, starting at 4:20, asking nothing implausible or impossible because you factor in the physical abilities and states of each. If you can't do this in detail, you have no basis to bitch about Benteen. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - August 23 2004 : 1:31:10 PM
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Tell us, Wild, what Benteen should have done, why, and when, and with what units, starting at 4:20
Exactly what he did at 6.00.Saving 1 hour 40 minutes,which could have been put to good use fortifying the defensive position and probably saving many lives.
You have to prove Reno couldn't order Benteen to stop and assist,Reno never ordered Benteen to halt,he never even offered an opinion on Cooke's message.
I have no problem with Benteen halting what I have a problem with is his moral cowardice in leaving Reno and the wounded to fend for themselves and racing after Weir in a blatant CYA exercise.
Benteen was under Reno, and Benteen didn't 'take' Reno's company in violation of anything.
He took troop M without orders.
Gray pretends on the time line
I have seen you lambast other contributers for questioning Gray.
For the purposes of this discussion Gray is sacrosanct.It just goes to show how weak your case is DC when you stoop to second guessing Gray.
There was no 'decision' to break through to Custer,
Yes there was and Weir made it first,and then Reno ordered him to make contact with Custer and the indecisive Benteen followed .
They were not deserting Reno, nobody thought they were.
Of course not intentionally but as Benteen was acting on assumptions or was in CYA mode nobody was sure what was happening
The decision to ride north had no merit, in retrospect, but even the lamest imagination can conceive that they wanted to do something,
Sure no problem with that but why follow the lamest imagination in the command,which Benteen did?
3. An example of sowing indecision and/or confusion. OneHalting,advancing,retreating all uncoordinated and all without orders.
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Benteen's order
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