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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
 Posted - December 24 2004 : 11:00:08 PM
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| You are so awesome! |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 26 2004 : 2:06:46 PM
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Actually, a correction is in order. One of the charges is that C failed to relieve the attacked detachment or return to the site of the fight to recover bodies. What I stated erroneously, from memory, above is that C had never been told of the fight but may have heard of it while sitting in a doorway. What the testimony actually says is that C, while sitting in the doorway or near it may have overheard one of the troops who were attacked say to Hamilton that he (the trooper) thought one of the two men had gotten away.
Big difference as far as the original charge is concerned.
Sorry about that. 
Somewhere along the way, I have seen written, by either a commentator or an author, that C had deliberately abandoned a wounded man to the Indians during the "Libby's welfare" trip and was offering that up as clarification.
Billy |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 26 2004 : 9:18:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
That's the third specification of the 2nd Charge, and they found him guilty.
http://www.leavenworth.army.mil/history/custer.htm
Yeah, yeah...who do you think posted that link to start with? Actually, the authors of that page took the "Findings" section and replaced the strike-outs, etc. with the corrected versions. However, transcriber's qualms aside, yes that was the correct charge.
I am in the horns of a dilemma; Frost has a book published with the transcript documentation. If anyone has it, can they spot check and verify whether it is an accurate transcription? Also, does anyone know if a "working author" has published the same? If so, I will offer the transcript I do only on a one-to-one basis. If no one beyond Frost has worked on the trial transcription, well then, I likely will publish it as an HTML document.
Best of wishes,
Billy
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 27 2004 : 07:28:14 AM
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| Sorry. Guess I have pronoun trouble. Check and see if Frost's is an accurate transcription or this website? Either way......what issue is at stake here? That Custer would be excused because nobody officially told him something? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 28 2004 : 6:41:18 PM
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Yeah, I wasn't very clear on that was I? Yes, someone check and see if Frost is an accurate transcription, but, how will anyone tell without something to compare against? So, if anyone has the Frost book; I have finished transcribing, not proofing against the film, the Hamilton and Cook [sic] testimony and am currently working on Weir's testimony. Hopefully tomorrow I will be able to proof my work to-date against the film and offer a cleaner version of my work so far on the transcription.
Proving anything? No, I went into this with no axes to grind therefore have no need to prove anything, for C or against C.
Speaking of axes to grind, I have seen derogatory comments of Skelnar's work, To Hell With Honor and wonder why the negative reactions? Mind you, I am only half-way through the first chapter but beyond the comments about Lt. Wallace perjuring himself during the Reno COI, I don't find many things in it that I disagree with so far...and as a matter of fact DC, several things that you have said concerning his finances, lack of business acumen, and Libby's defending the "Custer image" well after his death. Perhaps later when he gives his take on the various testimonies and subsequent interviews I may see serious objections. The fact that Jerome Greene and Robert Utley both reviewed his work and pronounced, if I remember correctly, his analysis as possible is also a "plus" mark in his favor. Again, I will finish the book (which is overdue, so I will end up buying one from somewhere) and then evaluate my final opinion.
Best of wishes for everyone's Happy New Year,
Billy |
Edited by - BJMarkland on December 28 2004 6:42:37 PM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 28 2004 : 6:57:34 PM
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Precisely, but it seemed you were talking about Frost.
Calling a historical thesis "possible" is like calling a movie director "competent." That a theory falls within the laws of physics doesn't shake the rafters with enthusiastic support. And it may not even do that: he varies from Gray's time line as I recall.
"Mind you, I am only half-way through the first chapter but beyond the comments about Lt. Wallace perjuring himself during the Reno COI, I don't find many things in it that I disagree with so far...and as a matter of fact DC, several things that you have said concerning his finances, lack of business acumen, and Libby's defending the "Custer image" well after his death."
I don't follow. What about what I've said? That you don't disagree with me? Again, Markland, your family. Look to your family, man.
That Sklenar agrees with me? Even a stopped clock is correct twice a day. He's such a social climber, trying to get in good with me I can only suppose......
And halfway through the first chapter? Have you detected a slight irrational bias against Benteen yet? Just a tad? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on December 28 2004 7:05:24 PM |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 28 2004 : 10:50:49 PM
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DC, thank you for the chuckle.
Yes, in little over a half a chapter, I detected a somewhat biased opinion towards Benteen.
Again, I wasn't clear...need to start drinking before posting to be more exact...yes, you agree with Skelnar on the points mentioned. As you say about "stopped clocks being right twice a day", it still doesn't excuse the fact that you and Skelnar AGREE on something.
As I look over my shoulder for the asteroid to come hurtling down...
Tongue, somewhat in cheek,
Billy |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - December 29 2004 : 01:20:49 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by BJMarkland
Speaking of axes to grind, I have seen derogatory comments of Skelnar's work, To Hell With Honor and wonder why the negative reactions?
Best of wishes for everyone's Happy New Year,
Billy
Billy, you can read my review of the book at Amazon.com. |
Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 31 2004 : 12:16:21 PM
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By the way, a nice little piece of freeware to spell check can be downloaded from www.iespell.com. I use it extensively with my MS Internet Explorer. It has low CPU & memory overhead plus it works very well. You can use a toolbar button or, as I do, a right-click to spell check highlighted words or the entire message you are composing.
For those who are less computer savvy than they should be, here is how to install it.
-Click the DOWNLOAD link on the left side of the screen.
-Select one of the mirror sites ( I use CNET which seems fairly fast)
-When the window pops up, click SAVE to My Downloaded Programs or whatever directory you wish to store a copy in.
-Upon the next window after the download is complete, select RUN. NOTE: You have to have all browser windows closed while installing.
-After installation, it will ask if you want to check for updates. Click YES and it will verify that the downloaded version is the most current and rectify if not.
After which, you are ready to go. I have not tested this on Firefox but will download that and see how iespell works on that browser. Nor have I tested it on Netscape. I think I have copy of that loaded and will try it out. Also, the application did not cause either my Spywasher, Spybot S&D, or Norton to kick up a fuss.
Edit: It does not support Firefox yet per the developer's notes. He is working on that upgrade now. I needed to download a copy of Firefox anyhow. For those who haven't tried it, it is a nice alternative to MS IE or Netscape.
Happy New Year to all,
Billy
P.S. You just have to remember to use it  ! |
Edited by - BJMarkland on December 31 2004 1:00:25 PM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 31 2004 : 1:45:33 PM
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| If for no other reason, use Firefox because its text increase works, whereas MSExplorer only enlarges the text you're not reading, and out of proportion. And I hate it. Firefox is a zillion times better in general, but then they aren't writing bugs for it yet. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 01 2005 : 4:21:10 PM
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Guys, I have started a new project which has rapidly spun out of control. It started with the idea of examining the National Archives microfilm series, Register of Enlistments in the U.S. Army, 1798-1914 for more data concerning those known dead regular U.S. Army troops killed during the Bozeman Trail era. About halfway through the research into the enlistment years 1864-1865, inclusive, it morphed into the logical thought of, "Why not identify ALL Army troops killed on the Western plains in hostile action?" Thus, 4 hours of poring over microfilm was tossed out the window as I had only been scanning by regiment, not each individual's summary fate, i.e., discharged, deserted or deceased. Anyway, I have gotten it started and it will be intense but fun. Using that data, we can identify perhaps unknown fights as well as, from a romantic viewpoint, give honor and remembrance to those who died.
I initially thought of doing it for the years 1866 upwards as most of the volunteer troops had been discharged. But, since I am going to have to look into pre-Civil war enlistment data anyway, I will likely be including what I find for years earlier than 1866. Two things stand out as possible holes to be filled with your help. First, during the Civil War years on the frontier was primarily manned by volunteer units from MN, IA, WI, KS, CA, MO and our favorites, the CO troops. I can fill in some of the blanks as far as unit designations using Michno, Army post returns as well as books such as Circle of Fire by McDermott and The Indian War of 1865 by Ware, but if anyone has knowledge of the units, feel free to send me the information. Your help will be appreciated as well as acknowledged.
Next, as I said, I have initially thought to include only troops who were killed in action or died as a result of wounds but am rethinking that. In other words, go back and include troops who died as a result of disease (typhoid and cholera, etc.) as well as suicide and accidents (which includes the soldier who fell off a mule in St. Louis and died as a result-he was in the 2d Cav is why I picked him up). I need your takes on that. Also, a definition of the West may be helpful *grin*. I am thinking, as a rule of thumb, to include anything west of Ft. Leavenworth for the years 1866 upwards and west of St. Louis for the pre-war years. Again, your takes would be appreciated.
Thanks for any help you can offer as far as focus or specific information.
Best of wishes,
Billy |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - January 03 2005 : 01:08:40 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by BJMarkland
Guys, I have started a new project which has rapidly spun out of control. It started with the idea of examining the National Archives microfilm series, Register of Enlistments in the U.S. Army, 1798-1914 for more data concerning those known dead regular U.S. Army troops killed during the Bozeman Trail era. About halfway through the research into the enlistment years 1864-1865, inclusive, it morphed into the logical thought of, "Why not identify ALL Army troops killed on the Western plains in hostile action?" Thus, 4 hours of poring over microfilm was tossed out the window as I had only been scanning by regiment, not each individual's summary fate, i.e., discharged, deserted or deceased. Anyway, I have gotten it started and it will be intense but fun. Using that data, we can identify perhaps unknown fights as well as, from a romantic viewpoint, give honor and remembrance to those who died.
I initially thought of doing it for the years 1866 upwards as most of the volunteer troops had been discharged. But, since I am going to have to look into pre-Civil war enlistment data anyway, I will likely be including what I find for years earlier than 1866. Two things stand out as possible holes to be filled with your help. First, during the Civil War years on the frontier was primarily manned by volunteer units from MN, IA, WI, KS, CA, MO and our favorites, the CO troops. I can fill in some of the blanks as far as unit designations using Michno, Army post returns as well as books such as Circle of Fire by McDermott and The Indian War of 1865 by Ware, but if anyone has knowledge of the units, feel free to send me the information. Your help will be appreciated as well as acknowledged.
Next, as I said, I have initially thought to include only troops who were killed in action or died as a result of wounds but am rethinking that. In other words, go back and include troops who died as a result of disease (typhoid and cholera, etc.) as well as suicide and accidents (which includes the soldier who fell off a mule in St. Louis and died as a result-he was in the 2d Cav is why I picked him up). I need your takes on that. Also, a definition of the West may be helpful *grin*. I am thinking, as a rule of thumb, to include anything west of Ft. Leavenworth for the years 1866 upwards and west of St. Louis for the pre-war years. Again, your takes would be appreciated.
Thanks for any help you can offer as far as focus or specific information.
Best of wishes,
Billy
That's a fascinating (and undoubtedly back-breaking and eye-wasting) project. I actually did something like this myself for the Great Sioux War a couple months ago: I was curious how many people had died or were wounded in the whole thing, realised I didn't have any figures except for one that Jerome Greene gave in one of his books which was obviously too low, so I went poring through what volumes I had at hand until I found out, or at least came reasonably close. Like you I also thought it proper to include guys who died on campaign-related duties; drowning while ferrying mail, getting shot accidentally on picket duty, etc. I'll PM you what I put together, and what source(s) I took it from, soon.
R. Larsen |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - January 03 2005 : 02:02:44 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Warlord
larsen: Law school students don't have the time to waste on projects like you talk about! Phony. You thought it up before BJ? Sure you did!
You're right I don't. Billy's project is massive, requiring long hours, travel, and painstakingly reading old handwritten regimental returns and other documents, not all of which will actually have the data he's looking for. I simply spent some spare time over a couple weeks reading over what books I had on the subject, and taking notes. I never claimed to think it up before Billy, which I think you'd realize had you actually paused a little to think about what he was saying and I was saying.
R. Larsen |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 03 2005 : 05:43:50 AM
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Just starting to tabulate what I already have and the numbers are somewhat startling. I have documented proof of 101 people who died at or near Ft. Phil Kearny, D.T. in 1866/1867. Of that number, take away 13 civilians killed by Indians and two troops who died from disease (both of Typhoid fever). That leaves us with 86 soldiers who died in combat. Granted, Fetterman's fight alone gave us 80 crosses but, throw in the 10 other troops from different regiments/forts, ranging from New Mexico to Kansas, killed by Indians, as well as the other troops killed on the Bozeman Trail by Indians (7 or 8 at C.F. Smith-the post record of events is contradictory on Lt. Shurley's fight, and the nine I have documented at Ft. Reno) is still 111 combat-induced deaths in two years (Geo. Knowles, D/14th Inf., killed near Camp Bowie, A.T. was killed 5/26/1868 and is excluded from thte above number). Remember also, that I have only gone through the H-J surnames for the enlistment years 1864-1865. Of course, that number is dwarfed by the casualties of what were considered small skirmishes in the Civil War and by also the number of desertions which occurred.
Since this is only a preliminary sample, the above number does not take into account all the men killed with Kidder (Sgt. Oscar Close is tabulated), the Wagon Box fight or in various guard details on the Smokey Hill trail, the LBH fight, several fights which the 7th had in '67 (Sgt. Wylliams comes to mind) or the Grattan fight. Hmmm...that made me remember that I will have to use other sources to document officers killed.
For the time being, I am going to track civilian Army scouts/couriers known to have died as a result of combat separately, as well as known/documented volunteer casualties.
Since I began reading without logging in, I was able to see the response of WL. For what it is worth to anyone, Larsen actually did help me start this thing. During one of our conversations about Ft. Phil Kearny, he mentioned a lady who is/was doing genealogical studies of the troops killed with Fetterman. Which led me to remember my available sources, which led me to Frankenstein's monster.
Another one of the things which strikes me is the number of troops from countries other than the U.S. who were killed serving in the Army. For instance, of the 12 men killed at Ft. Phil Kearny for which I have extracted the enlistment data on, 6 were from different countries: Germany, England, Ireland, Canada.
Oh well, fun time is over. Time to get a cup of coffee and log-in to work and catch up with two weeks' worth of email. Also, need to put on Whiskeytown's Stranger's Almanac....had a song from that running through my head all blessed night.
Best of wishes,
Billy
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Edited by - BJMarkland on January 03 2005 05:49:12 AM |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 04 2005 : 10:21:07 PM
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Eureka! I finally found Custer's testimony to the Congress in 1875 which got grant so miffed at him.
Go to the Making of America hosted by the University of Michigan and enter this into the search criteria, Custer.
You will get 191 hits. Skip to the hits beginning with number 76 (76-100) and the next to bottom-most will be a document authored, by of all people, the Democratic Party in 1876, entitled, "The Campaign Text Book. Why People Want a Change. The Republican Party Reviewed: Its Sins and Omissions". Wow, things haven't changed that much in since then!
I would have posted the direct link but the links are too long to copy cleanly so, here is the MOH-Michigan link. Then follow the instructions as given regarding search criteria, etc.
http://www.hti.umich.edu/m/moagrp/
Edit: LOL, I have to include this as it reminds me so much of some of the arguments on these threads. On the Custer search results, hits 151-175, is a book, The Sazerac Lying Club: A Nevada Book by Fred H. Hart. Click on the the Custer reference and then hit previous page to read the entire story entitled, "The Mule". It is only one page but well worth it.
To make it Custer-centric, the report of Maj. Ludlow, Engineer on the Black Hills Expedition is on the same page of search results (actually, directly below the fore-mentioned book).
Best of wishes,
Billy
P.S. I am still looking for the actual Congressional report but that will have to do for now. |
Edited by - BJMarkland on January 04 2005 10:33:37 PM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 04 2005 : 10:50:16 PM
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I had trouble with the search engine, but I only found, on page 705, this:
TESTIMONY OF GEN. CUSTER.
George A. Custer sworn and examined March 29, 1876:
"Q. Do you know anything about the extension of this Great Sioux reservation across tile east bank of the Missouri River?
A. Yes, sir.
"Q. That was done by the proclamation of the President in January last year and by another proclamation in April?
A. Yes, sir.
"Q. What was the effect of that proclamation upon the value of the traderships along that river?
A. It greatly enhanced their value by making them a more perfect monopoly, by removing all opposition and rivalry.
"Q. Did it disposess any people who had acquired title to lands there?
A. I cannot say that it dispossessed any people who had acquired title, because I am not sufficiently familiar with the legality of their title, but I know that it dispossessed people who claimed that they had a title, and who, no doubt, but for this would eventually have acquired title."
THAT was his testimony? There must be more that I missed?
UPDATE: It was just painfully drawn to my attention that I am an idiot, and the list of Custer references is in front of me. We'll just pretend that didn't happen...... |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on January 04 2005 10:53:31 PM |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 05 2005 : 12:14:15 AM
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 Did you say something DC?
Don't sweat it, the MOA at Michigan is somewhat clumsy to navigate around.
I went over to the MOA site at Cornell and hit several jackpots. One is the Century Magazine article by then Capt. Godfrey, entitled, "Custer's Last Fight". Cornell does it smarter than the Michigan guys and gives you a URL you can use to bookmark the article, thus, we have:
http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notisid=ABP2287-0043-105
Click on the article's title and it will take you to the first page. If you want to print it out or save it, I would recommend using the VIEW AS option at the top left and changing it to a PDF file. You have to do this one page at a time, unfortunately, but Godfrey's article is only 28 pages and General Fry's comments at the end an additional two.
Also, somewhere in the second fifty search hits (keyword Custer), there are two good articles by Theodore R. Davis. One is entitled, "Summer on the Plains" and deals with Hancock's campaign. The other is entitled, "Winter on the Plains" and deals with the life on the plains during winter in what, it looks like, is the year after Wa****a.
At the bottom of the page of the first fifty hits, there are two or three articles by G. A. Custer entitled, "War Memoirs" and one last article on as the first hit on the next results page. From what I gathered while scanning, these were rushed to print after GAC's death. He obviously had written most of them but I suspect Libby may have been the ghost-writer - oops, sorry about that.
Enjoy yourselves, and DC, don't hurt yourself on the computer you hear?!
Edit: Another page over, there is another article entitled "Custer's Last Battle" except this one was written by Capt. Charles King. It is longer by half than Godfrey's at around 60 pages. The URL for that is:
http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notisid=ABK4014-0081-24
Holy cow! I just started reading King's article and, well, read it like one of his novels.
Billy |
Edited by - BJMarkland on January 05 2005 01:02:55 AM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
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hunkpapa7
Lieutenant
United Kingdom
Status: offline |
Posted - January 06 2005 : 6:53:40 PM
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Bj you are a wealth of imformation.
I for one Sir,love it,keep it up. |
wev'e caught them napping boys
Aye Right ! |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
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Research Locations
