| Author |
 Topic  |
|
BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - January 07 2005 : 12:57:15 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by bhist
As always, great job Billy. You should get a degree in history and get a job as a historian with the National Park Service.
Uh Bob, you really need to think those things out a little clearer!! If my hobby becomes my work, that means my work is my hobby. Uh-uh, not me!!
LMAO,
Billy
P.S. Seriously, Bob & Hunk, thanks for the compliments. |
  |
|
|
bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - January 07 2005 : 01:46:16 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by BJMarkland
quote:
Originally posted by bhist
As always, great job Billy. You should get a degree in history and get a job as a historian with the National Park Service.
Uh Bob, you really need to think those things out a little clearer!! If my hobby becomes my work, that means my work is my hobby. Uh-uh, not me!!
LMAO,
P.S. Seriously, Bob & Hunk, thanks for the compliments.
Now, think about what you said Billy. The best jobs are those that pay you for what you love to do, right? Yes, if one can make their hobby their livelihood like Harrison Ford does, then all is good in the world!!!
Billy |
Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
Edited by - bhist on January 07 2005 01:47:02 AM |
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 07 2005 : 11:12:30 AM
|
| Did I miss in there (I rarely err, of course) a budget for Army incidentals? You know, like ammo? There's all this concern with salary, yet no mention of supplying these guys. Was that a separate budget? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 20 2005 : 09:58:40 AM
|
A couple of interesting sites I found this morning while looking for the name of a soldier to confirm my interpretation of the spelling:
http://ahc.uwyo.edu/onlinecollections/digital/clarke/default.htm
The journal author, Robert Dunlap Clark, was Army paymaster for the troops assigned to the Bozeman Trail in 1868. Cursory reading was interesting.
http://www.usregulars.com/library.htm
Primarily dealing with the Regular U.S. Army during the Civil War years, it offers rosters as well as various manuals/instruction books used during that period.
Best of wishes,
Billy |
|
|
|
wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - January 20 2005 : 10:07:09 AM
|
| Well done BJ |
|
|
|
BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
|
|
BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 21 2005 : 12:46:03 PM
|
I was looking for something else in the archives and discovered, for the first time, this web page posted by Timbrads of a excursion with reenactors from Ft. Abraham Lincoln to the LBH.
Very nice pictures and commentary. Good work Timbrads!
http://tbradsh.tripod.com/index.htm
A little later in that thread, Crow's Nest, pg. 2/2, Pgb gives the link to the company which arranged the portion of the excursion concerning LBH. That link is to 7th Ranch & RV Camp:
http://www.historicwest.com/
Look under Historical Tours.
By the way, the link to the Buffalo Bill Cody Center also gets you to the McCracken Library catalog, which has some pretty nice stuff in it. I had not seen some of the stuff I found when I did the search for keyword "Bozeman". It got me to the WY Western Trails Project. From there, select Migration and then look over the stuff. Of particular interest to me is a letter, 2/18/1867, from Eugene O'Connor dealing with the Wagon Box fight. He states in page 1, that the Indians, 2000, had the day before hung around the post for, I think it reads, 3 or 4 hours, then had gone on to attack the wood detail. Whatever, it is a good read of a letter from a man who was at the WBF. One thing that also hit me is his opinion that but for the arrival of the reinforcements, the Indians would have overrun the soldiers. He states that the Indians were readying a charge composed of "a far larger number than they did before" when the reinforcements arrived.
Intersting no doubt. The URL for the Wagon Box info is:
http://wyld.state.wy.us/uhtbin/cgisirsi/ySk5jAorSb/WYLD/51420355/523/2049
Best of wishes,
Billy |
Edited by - BJMarkland on January 21 2005 1:36:37 PM |
|
|
|
bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - January 21 2005 : 3:11:55 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by BJMarkland
A little later in that thread, Crow's Nest, pg. 2/2, Pgb gives the link to the company which arranged the portion of the excursion concerning LBH. That link is to 7th Ranch & RV Camp:
http://www.historicwest.com/
Look under Historical Tours.
Great stuff, Billy. The owner of 7th Ranch & RV Camp is Chip Watts. He's the Friends of the LBH treasurer. A great guy. He and his wife, Sandy, give horseback rides just about everywhere around the boundaries of the battlefield.
When I was up there for the archeological survey in September he and a couple of his customers stopped by on horseback. This was at Weir Point -- It was great observing them move off from us towards the NE across Weir Point and beyond. Gave a great perspective of men on horseback to the surroundings and the length of time to travel from one point to another.
|
Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - January 21 2005 : 10:06:27 PM
|
Weir Point, oh how I would love to trod upon its summit. |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on January 21 2005 10:07:24 PM |
|
|
|
Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - January 21 2005 : 10:24:57 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
Weir Point, oh how I would love to trod upon its summit.
I have, though we're not allowed to. The two things you realize, that maybe you didn't before just by looking at a map or reading the accounts, is how comparatively close it is to Reno Hill (driving out of the park, in just a few moments you're there) and how easily Custer's battlefield can be seen, at least on a clear day with no dust, smoke, etc. The entire battlefield just seems a lot smaller once you've been there.
R. Larsen |
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 22 2005 : 12:11:41 PM
|
My feeling is the opposite, that the field is so much bigger than the maps coddle me to think. Were you the guy who provided us with that visualization chart of what horsemen looked like at various distances? It's pretty vague and dotlike from WP to LSH, and that's on a clear day. I find the land most deceptive and unsettling. It often looks smooth and it ain't.
I made a video of the drive from Reno Hill to WP so I could keep a sense of proportion on an earlier project. It's the Belmont Stakes from Reno to WP, a mile and a half, a half hour walk. An hour ten walk in a straight line to CH from WP if sorta level and you could, but you cannot. Like the 7th, you need to follow the ridges to the east or you're up and down a lot. That's what gets me, because the mess that is the the land north of MTC is pretty apparent to me (with hindsight and no skill at observation of this sort) and certainly must have been to the vastly experienced scouts and Custer from WP. Once you expose your flank and rear to an enemy who'll cross behind you at MTC you're pretty well cooked, I'd think, because you're stuck on land where you have to operate as infantry without cover.
That's the moment - when Custer or whoever looked north and failed to see or disregarded terrain issues - that the battle was lost. As is being said regarding Custer's orders, there was no specific hookup envisioned, but it was felt that Custer would drive the village north towards Terry. If so, Custer attacking from the East or North is counterproductive to that goal, and an attack by the regiment up the terrific cavalry ground west of the LBH was the ticket. Provided the village wasn't so large as to make that silly. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - January 22 2005 : 4:01:27 PM
|
DC: The battlefield impressed me too as being bigger than I had thought.
On the 26th, driving the Indians north toward Terry would have been a factor, but on the 25th Custer had no expectation of Terry being in position at the mouth of the LBH. A flank attack might have been more important than the direction of the attack. |
|
|
|
Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - January 23 2005 : 03:52:19 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
My feeling is the opposite, that the field is so much bigger than the maps coddle me to think. Were you the guy who provided us with that visualization chart of what horsemen looked like at various distances?
I think that was Wrangler.
quote:
That's what gets me, because the mess that is the the land north of MTC is pretty apparent to me (with hindsight and no skill at observation of this sort) and certainly must have been to the vastly experienced scouts and Custer from WP. Once you expose your flank and rear to an enemy who'll cross behind you at MTC you're pretty well cooked, I'd think, because you're stuck on land where you have to operate as infantry without cover.
That's the moment - when Custer or whoever looked north and failed to see or disregarded terrain issues - that the battle was lost.
Yes -- I already believe it, and become more convinced as time passes that this was the critical decision of the whole day, whoever made that pass on MTC and took the five companies north. For what it's worth, Curley (who was with Custer at Weir Point) said that Custer showed no interest in any of the surrounding terrain, that his attentions were focused solely on the village, but still, that can't possibly have been it, can it? You don't need to look too much, and even if Custer neglected it, others were there.
R. Larsen |
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
|
|
wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - January 24 2005 : 05:09:18 AM
|
DC
If so, Custer attacking from the East or North is counterproductive to that goal, and an attack by the regiment up the terrific cavalry ground west of the LBH was the ticket. Provided the village wasn't so large as to make that silly.
And Prolar
but on the 25th Custer had no expectation of Terry being in position at the mouth of the LBH. A flank attack might have been more important than the direction of the attack.
Where the attack came from was always a secondary consideration.More important was when it was made.Custer failed to comprehend or ignored the stratagic situation.The Indians knew Gibbon was aproaching.They probably knew that he had linked up with Custer and that their combined froces were as strong as theirs.What they did not know was that Custer had then cut away.So when Custer appeared on their South flank they saw a seperate force of unknown strenght.If Custer had delayed his attack by 1/2 a day and simply made a demonstration there was a good chance the Indians would have packed up and started to leave.That was the time to attack with the entire command.That was the moment to consider the terrain over which to launch an attack.The Indians loaded down with impedimenta,women and children would have been thrown into confusion.The 7th would have gone threw them like ****e threw a goose.
But Custer with surprise and the stratigic situation in his favour blew it.It was not the fact that Custer divided his command that was the fatal flaw but that he sent a small force to knock on the door to announce his arrival.He immediatly gave the Indians a small tactical victory.That was enough their blood was up,they had seen the longknives run.Having given away surprise,a tactical victory the ever so generious Custer now gave them time.For the next hour he presents his flank to them.
And the final act in this tragedgy.Enter stage right Terry with a force less than that which the Indians had seen off at Weir point and exit stage left the Indians.Why did they pack up and go at the approach of Terry?The comic twist to this tale is that Custer's surprise was so complete that the indians thought he was still with Gibbon.Thus Custer saves Reno and Benteen???????????
|
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 24 2005 : 11:04:15 AM
|
Wild, by, er, topic.
1. The Indians may or may not have known that Gibbon was approaching them on the day of battle. That Indians had been seen by Terry's crew from the beginning does not mean that the info was passed on at all. Look at all the contact around the Crow's Nest NOT passed on to the camp in general or at all. The camp was surprised. That alone should shut down all this talk about the Indians' capability of acting as one army.
2. The one time previous to this, at Kildeer, where the Indians were encamped in such bulk they did NOT get up and leave right away, but fought and attacked the Army. Explain why, therefore, there was a 'good chance' they'd leave at LBH?
3. You keep using these phrases as if all the Indians were western military minded and some of them were experienced in ordering large numbers of warriors and thought in strategic terms, and that the warriors would somehow obey, or that information was efficiently passed other than by screams and rumor.
4. The Indians did not think Custer was with Gibbon. They apparently thought he was Crook again. This, if they thought about it at all. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - January 24 2005 : 2:41:47 PM
|
DC
1. The Indians may or may not have known that Gibbon was approaching them on the day of battle.
The chiefs did not have to be graduates of St Cyr military academy to realise that Gibbon was not promenading along the LBH river for the benifit of his health.Parties of Indians had been following his progress for weeks.
Look at all the contact around the Crow's Nest NOT passed on to the camp in general or at all.
That was contact on one day not over weeks.
The one time previous to this, at Kildeer, where the Indians were encamped in such bulk they did NOT get up and leave right away, but fought and attacked the Army. Explain why, therefore, there was a 'good chance' they'd leave at LBH?
I'm not familiar with Kildeer but I expect that battle was forced on them.
Custer an experienced Indian fighter thought they would scatter.
To attack requires the ability to act in unison and as you say "That alone should shut down all this talk about the Indians' capability of acting as one army".
They were a collection of tribes so it really only required one to start packing up for all of them to follow.
With Two armies aproaching from different directions it placed them on the horns of a dilemma.Attack one and you leave the camp open to the other.Attack both and you play into the hands of the army.
Custer forced the issue and blew a golden opportunity.
You keep using these phrases as if all the Indians were western military minded and some of them were experienced in ordering large numbers of warriors and thought in strategic terms,I'd imagine they had a basic group instinct for self preservation which would not allow a large body of enemy forces get within say 2 days march of them.
|
|
|
|
prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - January 24 2005 : 3:05:29 PM
|
| Wild I: Your last two posts leave me with questions. Despite DC's reference to Kildeer, I agree that Custer, Terry, and most everyone else expected and feared that the Indians would escape and scatter if given the chance. Wouldn't being packed and moving only make that easier for them? Custer attacked about midday which was as soon as he could reach the village after he thought he was discovered. Why would he want to wait another half day? The Indians had known of Gibbons force for some time, but he only became a threat when he reached the LBH on the 26th. |
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 24 2005 : 3:08:11 PM
|
Following? Or did Terry bump into different groups who may or may not have passed it on, having little or no connection to Sitting Bull's camp? Further, elements of the camp moved north towards the soldiers, according to one theory. And no, Wild, I'm not sure they were such sheep as you suggest, although who knows.
"I'd imagine they had a basic group instinct for self preservation which would not allow a large body of enemy forces get within say 2 days march of them." Yet on June 25th they had two large bodies within two days march, one attacking having caught them utterly unprepared.
|
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - January 24 2005 : 3:37:48 PM
|
Prolar
Wouldn't being packed and moving only make that easier for them?
The best time to have attacked that village was when it was in the process of moving.You know screaming women and children,the old and the sick your best ponies hitched up to baggage, no leadership etc.
The Indians had known of Gibbons force for some time, but he only became a threat when he reached the LBH on the 26th.
If Custer had delayed until the 26th the Indians would have faced a double threat.
DC
Following? Or did Terry bump into different groups who may or may not have passed it on, having little or no connection to Sitting Bull's camp?
I read that the scalp of one of Gibbon's troopers was found in the village.And a bit facile to suggest that of village containing 1500 warriors none of them bumped into Gibbon.
Yet on June 25th they had two large bodies within two days march, one attacking having caught them utterly unprepared.
I did say instinct not bloody radar.But all credit to Custer for getting his command that close. |
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 24 2005 : 4:26:46 PM
|
You read where that the scalp of one of Gibbon's troopers was found in the village? How could anyone tell? When was it obtained? It would be facile to say none bumped into Gibbon, and I didn't. You've suggested that Gibbons was followed and tracked by Indians, but if they belonged to Sitting Bull they certainly did NOT act upon it till they were discovered on the 26th coming up the LBH, when they left. When you say "they" probably knew that Gibbon and Terry had met and what their numbers were, I'd say "some Indians" probably knew they'd joined but, having no ability to count so many they also had no reason to do so. Further, they would have no clue how many were joining SB and may or may not have been motivated to inform SB, who also didn't know how many we're heading to him and, in any case, had no authority to do anything about it, nor did anyone. Indians just could not process all this.
Okay, credit to Custer. How about credit to Crook, who also got within two days but, of course, was attacked. For all the Indians knew, he was heading back after them. Terry and Gibbon were that close and not attacked, though. Neither was Custer.
The implication that the tribes didn't attack Terry or finish Reno because they could not might be true, or it might be because they really had no idea how many were with Terry because they were disorganized and left Reno because it looked like they'd lose too many to justify it. They'd done that before, at Beecher Island, at Wagon Box, at other spots, so it isn't unique or surprising. Like at LBH, there were more soldiers coming at Beecher, and it just wasn't a big deal to the Indians anymore. They're bipolar about fighting: huge enthusiasm, big fight, no energy or ability to sustain an actual war as the whites knew it. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - January 24 2005 : 8:19:19 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
You read where that the scalp of one of Gibbon's troopers was found in the village? How could anyone tell? When was it obtained?
I think Herendeen's responsible for that. A scalp was found at the sun-dance site on Custer's march to LBH battlefield, and he identified it as belonging to one of Gibbon's soldiers who had been ambushed while hunting a month earlier. The name was Stoker or Raymeyer. I think his logic was sort of along the lines of, "Who else could it be?" He had no other proof.
R. Larsen
|
|
|
|
wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - January 25 2005 : 08:28:46 AM
|
I understand your last post to indicate that you are of the opinion that the Indians were incapable of strategic thought.Had poor communications and lacked Leadership.I actually thought you were describing a cross between Homer Simson and the Dodo.
Your reasoning seems to be that they were such cretins that they were unable to recognise a developing apocalyptical situation and their reaction could not be determined.Thus this "defensive system"they had of not conforming to rational behavior forced Custer into a permature attack.
Brillant DC, go and stand over there beside your nemesis Wiggs you make a right pair.
|
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 25 2005 : 09:55:11 AM
|
If you actually believe what you posted, despite all evidence, you understand wrong, Wild. I don't think Indians were any stupider or more venal than anyone else, merely just as bad. But to the point: no, they had no strategic sense. How could they? If they did, and could imagine how small they were and backward, they wouldn't have fought those wars after our Civil War, because all they were doing was bringing the wrath of an incredibly wealthy nation upon themselves in wars they could not possibly win. They couldn't even unite and figure out how to keep warriors fighting and supported and the pressure on for prolonged periods. But they couldn't, wouldn't, didn't. And never had.
You keep using "they" to indicate that those Indians supposedly tracking Terry and Gibbon were all without question the ones the Army hit at the LBH. Some, perhaps most, certainly were. But the assumption they kept track of the Army and sending someone updates is pretty weak given what we actually know. Like....
For the two days previous to his demise, Custer had run across several groups of Indians that they themselves saw and/or interacted with. There could have been many they did not see. None of these aborigines, apparently, notified the camp or, if they did, the camp acted like a drugged stegosaur out of some sort of spite and self-hatred, because it was utterly surprised despite what must have been rather impressive dust clouds all morning. Or, whoever was told about the soldiers chose not to alert people because they made fun of him. Something.
When the soldiers were in their face and about to cross the river and attack, and those few aware of this ran their horses in circles in the supposed understood signal system of the Indians, what happened? Not much, if anything. Women and children were shot in the lodges furthest south because they didn't know to run north. Only when Reno was at their door did resistence show up.
This is not the stigmata of a military machine or a even a remotely competent street gang or any sort of organization concerned with mere survival. They hadn't discovered Custer till too late, they didn't even act effectively when he was discovered, hardly anyone reacted at all until civvies were dead. That's one pathetic village of Indians with their fingers to the ground, communing with spirits, as one with nature.
Yet, the non-organization and incomptetence irrefutably illustrated by that is somehow and concurrently described as humming with accurate and detailed information on the Terry/Gibbon group far distant as a Command Center discussed strategy? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - January 25 2005 : 4:12:09 PM
|
DC
no, they had no strategic sense. How could they? If they did, and could imagine how small they were and backward, they wouldn't have fought those wars after our Civil War, because all they were doing was bringing the wrath of an incredibly wealthy nation upon themselves in wars they could not possibly win.
How wrong you are.They displayed a sophistication that would not have been out of place on Wall street.They knew the value of the Black hills.They knew full well what the railroad would bring.They knew the meaning of the surveyors and the miners.They met with corporate America and saw them off.But above all else they knew that eventually that it was the agency for them whether they went peacefully or fought.Life as a Laramie Loafer or fight.
You think because men make a stand against all odds they are devoid of sense?One would expect more from a citizen of a state whose history is one of never say die.
But the assumption they kept track of the Army and sending someone updates is pretty weak given what we actually know.
Well just how do you think Crook got caught napping?
For the two days previous to his demise, Custer had run across several groups of Indians that they themselves saw and/or interacted with.
That is a gross overstatement verging on being untrue.Why then the panic when they dropped a box of goodies?
Only when Reno was at their door did resistence show up.
sure but at least resistence did show up.Compare and contrast that with the reaction of a modern stragically aquainted Army at Chancellorsville?
That's one pathetic village of Indians with their fingers to the ground, communing with spirits, as one with nature.
Fetterman will confirm that.
Yet, the non-organization and incomptetence irrefutably illustrated by that is somehow and concurrently described as humming with accurate and detailed information on the Terry/Gibbon group far distant as a Command Center discussed strategy?
Well this pathetic bunch of disorganised incompetant Indians somehow turned Terry's column into one of the longest funerial marches in American history. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Research Locations
