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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - September 30 2004 : 10:07:35 PM
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"Any balanced appraisal of Custer as a soldier must remember what he did in March, 1865." Which was drop kick a demoralized hummingbird led by the one Southern General virtually nobody respected much. This is only a few months before the war ended, the Rebs were starving and freezing in the sleet. Custer had well fed and armed men and the Big Mo behind him. What the author sees as divine intuition and brilliance I see as trying to get to the bridge first, which cut off retreat. No soldier myself, I still don't feel Napoleon's dead brow arched in appreciation.
This is the typical Crush of the Custerphile. Great lengths to remind of (in this case, insignificant) victories over an already beaten enemy to "balance" his otherwise inexpicable moves at LBH. Remind the same folks of Reno's good days, and the snorts begin.
I got the following from http://members.sitegadgets.com/jweaver300/board/580.html
"Southern Historical Society Papers
Volume III, March 1877, Number 3
"Early's Valley Campaign" by General A. L. Long, Chief of Artillery, 2nd Corps, A.N.V.
"As Sheridan was without artillery, and the ground being unfit for the operation of cavalry, Early could have easily maintained his position with reliable troops; but contrary to his belief, there was considerable disaffection in Wharton's Division. Therefore, without his knowledge his little army harbored the elements of defeat, for at the first show of an attack the malcontents threw down their arms, and, almost without opposition, Sheridan carried the position, compelling Early with his faithful few to seek safety in retreat."
The Confederate account, that I believe may be closest to the truth, is the Thursday, March 2nd, journal entry of Captain Jed Hotchkiss, Topographical Engineer, found in the Official Records--Series I--Volume XLVI/1 [S#95]
A few highlights:
"The enemy came on very early and drove in our pickets....and it was then reported that they had gone back, and the troops were ordered to the woods to make fires to protect themselves from the cold sleet which was constantly falling; but before the order could be sent news came that they were advancing in force.....We opened artillery on them.....compelling them to fall back....but, about 3 p.m. they massed, and moving through the woods turned our left flank, which made a feeble resistance and gave way, followed by the giving way of the whole line, and one of the most terrible stampedes I have ever seen...No artillery had been posted on the other side of the river, as I had suggested to General Long, so there was nothing to check the enemy....The general[Early] committed an unpardonable error in posting so small a force with a swolen river in its rear and with its flanks wholly exposed....got to my horse and rode rapidly across the river, expecting to find artillery....to my surprise, there was none there....I saw general officers run by me in the headlong stampede."
Hotchkiss, former topographical engineer on Stonewall Jackson's staff, appears much more concerned with the preservation of his maps and paperwork, than he is with the preservation of self-serving reputation."
Custer was good, I don't argue otherwise, and in fact I think him hurt at LBH. But this battle was not won by genius and it's sorta strange for the author to present it as such and to do so clearly to inflate Custer's credibility. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 03 2004 : 12:27:19 PM
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OK, I went over to Ft. Leavenworth's Combat Arms Research Library (CARL) yesterday after discovering that the National Trails Research Library's hours were incorrect on their web site. While at CARL, I checked on a couple of things. First, they do not have the Post Returns from Ft. Abraham Lincoln and secondly, they do not have the returns from the 7th Cavalry (as a matter of fact, they don't have any cavalry returns). However, I did take a look through the Army and Navy Journal to see what they had to say about the period preceding LBH and their reporting of the LBH battle itself. Over the next several few days I will be transcribing and posting the shorter articles here. The longer articles I will transcribe and either post them at my site or give to Bob to post at the FoLBHB site. Included in the longer articles are the obituaries for the officers killed at LBH, some poems written in remembrance of the killed, articles dealing with the columns, Crook's report and an associated article from a reporter of the Rosebud battle, an article dealing with Herendon's experiences, Terry's report and final orders to Custer and a list of the killed and wounded in the 7th.
For those who don't know, the Army and Navy Journal was a weekly magazine devoted to news relating to the Army and Navy including transfers, retirements, appointments, promotions, deaths, court-martials, news relating to the affairs of either Army or Navy and foreign military news. The schedule of printing had an issue on June 24, 1876 and the first mention of the LBH battle was July 8th, 1876. Rosebud was mentioned in the June 24, 1876 edition. I arbitrarily started on the Feb. 12, 1876 edition, went through that and another issue and realized I had a time crunch and jumped through until I found mention of LBH
Here are extracts pertaining to the 7th Cavalry from the February 12, 1876 edition.
Army and Navy Journal
February 12, 1876
"NOMINATIONS TO THE SENATE, MADE SINCE DEC. 13, 1875
[snip]
Seventh Regiment of Cavalry - Promotions. First Lieutenant Thomas M. McDougall, to be Captain, Dec. 15, 1875; Second Lieutenant Chas. Braden, to be First Lieutenant, Dec. 9, 1875; Second Lieutenant Chas. C. De Rudio, to be First Lieutenant, Dec. 15, 1875.
[snip]
Appointments
Transfer - Second Lieutenant Wm. Van W. Reilly, from the Tenth Cavalry to the Seventh Cavalry
[snip]
7th Cavalry. Colonel S. D. Sturgis - Headquarters and A, C, D, F, I, Fort Lincoln, D.T.; B, G, Shreveport, La.; E, L, Fort Totten, D.T.; H, M, Fort Rice, D.T.; K, McComb City, Miss.
First Lieutenant D. McIntosh and Second Lieutenant B. H. Hodgson were detailed members, and Second Lieutenant G. D. Wallace, Judge-Advocate, of G.C.-M. at Shreveport, La., Feb. 9.
The sum of $43 will be stopped against the pay of First Lieutenant E. S. Godfrey, value of 1,500 calibre .50 and 1,000 calibre .44 expended in hunting, without being charged on muster and pay rolls, as required by existing orders, during the 1st quarter of 1875. Captain Owen Hale is detailed member of G.C.-M. at St. Louis Barracks, Mo., Feb. 10. The extension of leave of absence granted Lieutenant-Colonel G. A. Custer is still further extended until Feb. 15, 1876 (S.O.W., A.-G. O., Feb. 7).
[snip]
ORDERS RELATING TO ENLISTED MEN
[snip]
Sentence Remitted. - Frederick Trapand, M, Seventh Cavalry, Feb. 4 (S.O. No. 14, D. of Dakota).
Acquitted. - Sergeant Wm. Curtis, F, of conduct prejudicial, etc., and John S. Ragsdale, A, Seventh Cavalry, of desertion, Jan. 20 (G.C.-M.O. No. 8, D. of Dakota).
Sentenced to Confinement. - Adam Hetesimer, I, Seventh Cavalry, two months hard labor at post, $20 fine; Hobert Rider, M, 7th Cavalry , 3 months hard labor at post and $30 fine; John Butler, F, 7th Cavalry, and Frank H. Wheeler, H, 17th Inf., one years' hard labor at Fort Abraham Lincoln, D. T., and dishonorable discharge; Joseph Monroe, F, Seventh Cavalry, four months hard labor at post and $40 fine (G.C.-M.O. No. 8, D. Dakota, Jan. 20).
Released from Confinement. - Uriah S. Lewis, D, Seventh Cavalry, Jan. 20 (G.C.-M.O. No. 8, D. Dakota)."
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Edited by - BJMarkland on October 03 2004 12:32:24 PM |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 03 2004 : 1:28:37 PM
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Re: Miles Keogh and whether he was at Gettysburg poised by Dark Cloud some time ago. This is from Keogh's obiturary, Army and Navy Journal, July 15, 1876. Not a definitive answer but the strong implication is that he was at Gettysburg with Buford.
"...Brevetted Lieutenant Colonel U.S.A. "for uniform gallantry and good conduct during the war." He was appointed a Second Lieutenant Fourth U.S. Cavalry, May, 1866, and on account of his merit and experience with the mounted service was commissioned Captain in the Seventh Cavalry, May 28th, 1866, with the brevets of Major for "Gettysburgh" [sic] and Lieutenant Colonel for "the war"...Colonel Keogh was a tall handsome soldierly looking man with the courage of a soldier and the kindness of heart and gentle disposition of a woman. Keogh and O'Keefe will be remembered as the "twin aids" to Buford, who always were generous, light-hearted jolly companions and the first for any dangerous duty. They both gave their lives for their adopted country."
I don't think Buford would have recommended him for a brevet at Gettysburg unless he had been there and served. I am making the assumption that Buford did the recommendation and it took a while to filter through the Congress for approval.
O'Keefe is, I feel fairly sure, Joseph O'Keefe. This is from Heitman (there are only two O'Keefes listed and the other was a chaplain in 1901).
"O'Keefe, Joseph. Ireland. N.Y. Capt. a.a.d.c. 24 Apr 1862; Maj. 2 N.Y. cav. 11 Nov 1864; bvt lt col vols 13 Mar 1865 for extraordinary gal throughout the campaign from Winchester to the James River and at the battles of Dinwiddie CH and Five Forks, Va.; died 6 Apr 1865 of wds received 1 Apr 1865 in the battle of Five Forks Va."
Best of wishes,
Billy |
Edited by - BJMarkland on October 03 2004 2:32:05 PM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 03 2004 : 1:43:08 PM
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Is the Mr. Cross who is Warlord related to the Mr. Cross who wrote the Harrington book? Are we able to get a sense of where the skull has been before the book emerges? Its fit to the photo looked fairly iffy to me, but I'm not expert at that sort of thing.
I'm a great admirer of Buford and I certainly believe the data, I just hadn't found any mention of Keogh at Gettysburg. Keogh's character mention in the Journal is at significant odds with the images provided elsewhere of a drunken lout easy to use the stick on soldiers. We ought to recall this sort of thing when comparing conflicting stories about people: people change, people leave different impressions, obits are not always truthful, and the 'truth' can entertain many conflicting stories that are only mutually exclusive if you believe one image alone defines a person. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 03 2004 : 2:31:00 PM
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quote:
I'm a great admirer of Buford and I certainly believe the data, I just hadn't found any mention of Keogh at Gettysburg. Keogh's character mention in the Journal is at significant odds with the images provided elsewhere of a drunken lout easy to use the stick on soldiers. We ought to recall this sort of thing when comparing conflicting stories about people: people change, people leave different impressions, obits are not always truthful, and the 'truth' can entertain many conflicting stories that are only mutually exclusive if you believe one image alone defines a person.
Excellent points. An obituary is simply an attempt to document and honor someone's life. Subjective opinions are simply that, opinions. Actually, what I look for in an obituary beyond the "fluff" are the facts which can be independently corroborated. Speaking of which, Heitman states of Keogh, "...brev Maj 2 Mar 1867 for gal and mer ser in the battle of Gettysburg Pa and lt col 2 Mar 1867 for gal and mer ser in the battle of Dallas Ga;"
Now to mow the grass.
Best of wishes,
Billy
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - October 03 2004 : 2:39:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Is the Mr. Cross who is Warlord related to the Mr. Cross who wrote the Harrington book? Are we able to get a sense of where the skull has been before the book emerges? Its fit to the photo looked fairly iffy to me, but I'm not expert at that sort of thing.
I wasn't impressed with the match either, and the way the blurb talked up the author's identification of Harrington as "the bravest man the Sioux ever fought" left me uneasy about the whole thing. He sounds pretty uncritical, so I hope he has better sources for this skull's provenance and ID than just his enthusiasm.
R. Larsen |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - October 03 2004 : 2:51:18 PM
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Addendum: I looked at Cross's links page and it turns out that the skull he identifies as Harrington was the one found by Dr. Shufeldt in 1877. Shufeldt found this skull in the valley where Reno had fought. Other parts of the remains (including the man's trousers) were found at the same place, so the skull wasn't carried and dumped there from somewhere else. See Scott, "They Died with Custer," pgs 120-22. Unless something really weird and unrecorded happened, it's not Harrington.
R. Larsen
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 03 2004 : 4:38:55 PM
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| You'd think they'd have done a DNA on the skull before such an announcement. I suppose it could be Harrington, but he had family and other lines of descendents, I think, to make this possible, and if it wasn't done, what is the author doing? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - October 03 2004 : 4:48:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by BJMarkland
Over the next several few days I will be transcribing and posting the shorter articles here. The longer articles I will transcribe and either post them at my site or give to Bob to post at the FoLBHB site.
Billy -- I'd be happy to post them if you don't have enough disc space on your site. If you do post them on yours, please let me know so I can send a link your way from my website. You should have received an email with my new email address. |
Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 03 2004 : 8:00:46 PM
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Bob, since your site is targeted to the LBH, they should be at your site. I will let you know privately when I have articles transcribed. The ones you may not want, such as editorials about proposed budget cuts by Congress, I can post.
Best of wishes,
Billy |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 12 2004 : 5:18:47 PM
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I have two recommendations on reading matter, which, although they are not LBH specific, offer fair treatment of the Indians and whites, warts and all, as well as great coverage of two of the four catalysts which culminated in the Great Sioux War of 1876 and LBH.
The first, I had never heard of, I found at the National Trails Museum in Independence, MO. The title is Massacre Along the Medicine Road and the author is Ronald Becher. The subject of this book is the Indian War of 1864, the conditions which led the Cheyenne to attempt to eradicate the white presence from the Great Platte Road, and includes fantastic research on the victims as well as an extremely sympathetic view of the Cheyenne. It delves into the history of the road, the early attempts at treaties and subsequent events to the 1864 war such as Sand Creek. Well-written and a must read for background into Sand Creek and the next recommendation, the Indian War of 1865. Published by Caxton Press, Caldwell, Idaho 1999.
I mentioned ordering this some weeks ago but the book on the Indian War of 1865, Circle of Fire by John McDermott is also a must-have for researchers and enthusiasts. Exhaustively researched in primary source materials (enough to make Larsen applaud), prolifically notated and well-written, this book attempts to paint a coherent picture of a far-ranging war fought by out-manned, out-gunned, and under-supplied troops of the frontier army against the largest congregations of Indians assembled against the whites up to that time.
The two books mentioned above, along with Ware's The Indian War of 1864 and Jerome Greene's book on Sand Creek should give the reader/historian/enthusiast as good an insight into the period as can be expected. Now, to find the definitive book on the Sioux War of 1862.
Best of wishes,
Billy
P.S. In both the above books, Chivington & Evans of Colorado come across as opportunistic snakes.
P.P.S. I mentioned four catalysts for the Great Sioux War of 1876. In my opinion they are: War of 1864, War of 1865, Red Cloud's War and the Black Hill gold rush. The first two could be combined if you wished and another inserted, perhaps the Marias Massacre which prevented the Army from taking over the Office of Indian Affairs or the abandonment of the Virginia City road (Bozeman Trail). Take your pick or choose another.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 12 2004 : 6:01:35 PM
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Show some respect. Chivington was a Man of God, the Cloth, Annointed in the Blood of the Lamb. How can you think ill of such a paragon doing holy work?
Tough room.....
Colorado had some real gems during those years, and unfortunately Chivington and Evans were only among the worst. Schyler Colfax, for example, was the guy Lincoln could only partially convince himself would not 'steal a red hot stove', but primary sources reveal the President wouldn't bet money on it. Fitting Colfax Avenue is such a long and sleazy street. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 22 2004 : 07:02:39 AM
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Some good stuff found this morning regarding Civil War era Army Regulations, Tactics, etc.
http://www.usregulars.com/library.htm
Best of wishes,
Billy
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 06 2004 : 10:29:20 AM
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I today found that the specifications and findings of Custer's 1867 trial are on-line at Ft. Leavenworth's web site.
http://www.leavenworth.army.mil/history/custer.htm
Too bad the entire transcript is not there but...
Billy |
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hunkpapa7
Lieutenant
United Kingdom
Status: offline |
Posted - December 06 2004 : 5:00:02 PM
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I would have to say GAC got a real result.
two life sentences for the two soldiers,before even thinking about the rest of the charges.
Then he could have written"My life on Skid Row"
This episode should have been the reason they called it "Custers Luck"
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wev'e caught them napping boys
Aye Right ! |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 06 2004 : 6:20:37 PM
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It's good to reread the charges and verdicts periodically and know that's one end of the factual spectrum about Custer. He had left men to their own devices and death before (for no reason other than his own convenience) in Indian country and he had acted selfishly and not for the benefit of mission or men. Not mere accusations or suppostions: fact. Even the verdicts that were softened seem just as a favor rather than his due.
Benteen is hardly baseless in his dislike and disrespect, and surely not alone. Knowing the charges and verdicts, I find it very difficult to blame Reno for supposing he'd been left to fend for himself and that Custer had puttered north after a fight leaving them all, and why perhaps the issue of the wounded later than night was considered in emotional terms rather than valid ones. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 06 2004 : 8:02:57 PM
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This site deals with the 1840's Dragoon rather the Indian Wars era cavalryman but it is interesting nonetheless. The site is the National Park Service's Fort Scott, KS web site.
http://www.nps.gov/fosc/lof.htm
Best of wishes,
Billy |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 12 2004 : 10:26:40 AM
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Excellent site! Deals with Buford's Cavalry during the Civil War and has also a very good biography of Myles Keogh. First, the bio of Keogh is located at Other Biographies at the site index.
The home site is:
http://www.bufordsboys.com/
Enjoy as I have,
Billy
P.S. While reading Keogh's bio was the first time I had known that he rode with Stoneman's cavalry on the last raid throught western NC and southwestern VA. Strangely enough, my great-granddad was on that raid also, serving in the 13th TN (U.S.) Cavalry. |
Edited by - BJMarkland on December 12 2004 10:57:24 AM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 12 2004 : 2:30:13 PM
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Well. Yes and no. Keogh's bio contains: "It is notable that when Sitting Bull was killed in a later battle, he too was found to be wearing a Papal medal. Keogh's bravery and determination became the subject of several Sioux accounts of the battle." Battle? Papal medal? De Smet may have given SB a medal of some sort. But in toto, this is malarkey, at least in surety, but there's a great deal of malarkey.
At several sites (including:http://indigo.ie/~wildgees/keogh.htm) they make a point of showing Keogh wearing medals along with close-ups of the medals. They aren't the same medals.
Then: "The Indian village contained 5,000 braves, fully equipped with repeating rifles, against Custers unreliable Springfield rifles. Major Reno was ambushed first and had to retreat with heavy casualties. Benteen joined him and they defended themselves for two days on high ground, but were unable to come to the aid of Custer.
The Battle of the Little Big Horn was fought on the 25th June 1876. Much has been written about it, with its own mysteries and legends. Crazy Horse, Gall and Red Horse closed in a pincer movement around Custer and his soldiers. Myles Keogh was second-in-command on the day, leading his own I Troop, Calhouns L Troop and F Troop under Captain Yates. Custer led his own Troop, his brother Tom's C Troop, and Captain Cookes E Troop." Ah, history. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 12 2004 : 6:59:28 PM
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DC, come on guy! First, criticize only the original web page (which I gave) and do not incorporate some other stuff from a different site and try to lump it all as one! Whether you meant to do so or not, that is the impression.
Yes, I agree that the idea of Sitting Bull wearing a "papal medal" is slightly ludicrous, but, I wasn't there, nor you.
And here I thought I was doing you a favor by putting up a site devoted to General Buford, which, despite a wart or two, seems fairly accurate. Sheesh, what do you want, extra tequila in your margarita or something?
Merry Christmas,
Billy
P.S. Hey, I never called you on the comments about the Raiders singing soprano or some such you made before they beat up the Ponies..err...Broncos. Any comments on that? LMAO! |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 12 2004 : 7:20:30 PM
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Sorry, no offense meant (I did say "Yes and..."), it is an interesting site and Buford's an interesting guy, but when you find bizarre stuff it makes you wonder about the rest. I wasn't trying to lump the two sites into one, used different paragraphs, clear separation and no intent to confuse.
If nothing else, Buford Boys says "Keogh's bravery and determination became the subject of several Sioux accounts of the battle." And my reaction is.....well, isn't that the sort of thing that makes any of us ask for evidence, given that no Sioux, to my reading, ever indicated he knew Keogh? And if the author takes chances by incorporating that as accepted fact, what else? All I meant.
Have the Raiders been on voice lowering steroids to reach soprano and stop bothering Colorado dogs? I wouldn't know, I don't follow football. Denver has no football team. They have an entertaining heart attack currently undecided about whether they prefer interceptions or fumbles as their choice of how to lose games they should not lose. Wait! Field goal. 50 yards. Rah. Jake Plummer has been awarded five game balls this season, three by opposing teams. Interesting season. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 24 2004 : 6:31:18 PM
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Sheesh, what a week. Nothing done due to a severe head cold, my blessed power supply died today on the PC, AND I had to do shopping.
Anyway, despite the cold, I went over to the archives Wednesday to do some research on the FPK and Bozeman Trail saga. I found myself looking through the logs of the "Letters Sent by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs" and despite myself, I found myself sympathizing with them. Sheesh, dozens of tribes and treaties to keep up with, deal with a tightwad Congress who will not apportion money to honor same treaties as well as deal with Sherman and the various schemes to relieve the various tribes of their land.
Anyway, I got depressed with that so I had the Archives pull the film of Custer's trial papers out of the back. Interesting reading. So interesting that I made copies of the first 50 pages or so of the actual testimony to transcribe. I am almost through with the first witness, Capt. Hamilton, and hope to finish that tomorrow after the kid's big morning. One thing, I think I remember correctly from scanning it prior to copying, Hamilton, who was in charge of the detail from Ft. Wallace to Ft. Hayes, for which Custer was originally brought up on charges, states in cross-examination that he never directly told Custer that the Indians had attacked the detail at Downer's Station. He assumes that C overheard it as C was sitting in the doorway.
Good reading so far.
Merry Christmas to all of you and yours,
Billy |
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