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Theresa
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 Posted - July 09 2003 : 07:38:46 AM
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| ...and when criticized about the historical accuracy of "The Patriot" Mel said not to let the facts get in the way of a good story. Hmmmm.... |
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Lainey
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Posted - July 09 2003 : 09:51:47 AM
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I'm glad you've raised the Greek vs Latin issue again, CT. Discussion on this has been interesting!
"If Greek was more commonly written than Latin, would it make sense for Latin to be more commonly spoken?"
Yes, it does. Just as Hebrew was the language preferred for the written word & Aramaic was the language preferred for the spoken word.
You might be right to say Koine Greek could/should have been included, but since Latin could not be excluded, it isn't inaccurate to have the Roman governor (Pilate), the advisors, & the soldiers all speaking Latin rather than Greek. Latin, I think we've agreed earlier, was preferred in the region of Jerusalem while under Roman rule, & Jerusalem was, of course, the location for the Passion. It could be that the usage of Latin in this film over & above Greek, despite common expectations for Greek, is precise & historically on the money.
Here's an interesting article I think you'll appreciate for its archaeological value ... note the references to Latin. And go see the Latin inscription on the Pilate Tablet!
http://www.bible-history.com/empires/pilate.html
Inscription by Pontius Pilate
It wasn't long ago when many scholars were questioning the actual existence of a Roman Governor with the name Pontius Pilate, the procurator who ordered Jesus' crucifixion. In June 1961 Italian archaeologists led by Dr. Frova were excavating an ancient Roman amphitheatre near Caesarea-on-the-Sea (Maritima) and uncovered this interesting limestone block. On the face is a monumental inscription which is part of a larger dedication to Tiberius Caesar which clearly says that it was from "Pontius Pilate, Prefect of Judea."
It reads:
Line One: TIBERIEUM,,
Line Two: (PON) TIUS
Line Three: (PRAEF) ECTUS IUDA (EAE)
This is the only known occurrence of the name Pontius Pilate in any ancient inscription. Visitors to Caesarea's theater today see a replica, the original is in the Israel Museum in Jerusalem. It is interesting as well that there have been a few bronze coins found that were struck form 29-32 AD by Pontius Pilate.
Who was Pontius Pilate?
Pontius Pilate's family name, Pontius, indicates that he was of the tribe of Pontii. It was one of the most famous of the ancient Samnite names. The surname or cognomen Pilatus indicates the familia, or branch of the gens Pontius. The name is uncertain, though some think it may have meant "armed with the pilum" (a spear or javelin). One interesting note is about another man in Roman history bearing the name. Lucius Pontius Aquila was a friend of Cicero and one of the assassins of Julius Caesar on the Ides of March (44 BC) when the would-be king was murdered.
The only information regarding Pontius Pilate is the New Testament and two Jewish writers: Josephus and Philo of Alexandria. By far our greatest amount of information comes from the Jewish writer Flavius Josephus who composed his two great works, the Antiquities of the Jews and the Jewish War, towards the end of the first century. There are also several "less reliable" traditions and legends. One early German legend says that Pilate was an illegitimate son of Tyrus, king of Mayence, who had Pilate taken to Rome as a prisoner. After he had apparently committed a murder he was sent to Pontus, where he enlisted in the Roman Army and proved himself by winning many victories against the barbarous tribes in the north.
Tacitus, when speaking of the cruel punishments inflicted by Nero upon the Christians, tells us that Christ, from whom the name "Christian" was derived, was put to death when Tiberius was emperor by the procurator Pontius Pilate (Annals xv.44). Apart from this reference and what is told us in the New Testament, all our knowledge of him is derived from two Jewish writers, Josephus the historian and Philo of Alexandria.
The Roman Procurator
Tiberius Caesar, who succeeded Augustus in AD 14, appointed Pontius Pilate as governor of Jude |
"Fides et Ratio" |
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CT•Ranger
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Posted - July 09 2003 : 6:20:18 PM
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"There may be another angle here. From some of the stills I've seen, it looks like they have Jesus carrying the whole cross, instead of just the crossbar. I thought the consensus today was that the condemned only carried the crosspiece. But most artistic renderings show the whole thing. Might Mel be more interested in making an artistic statement, visually, aurally, and in other ways, than in making a documentary type, historically accurate production?"
Yep Two Kettles, I think you're right. From what I've seen and read so far, Mel is really pushing the artistic, visual aspect of the film, while trying to do something a little more historically accurate than what has been done before. I'm just afraid it will be another "Braveheart" or "The Patriot." I guess I've always been a stickler for historical details; and I firmly believe the actual history is incredibly more interesting than any history based story someone can make up. Also, a film doesn't have to be a documentary to get the details right. I believe a really good historical film would get the details right and be artistic, so that those ignorant of the details would not be bored, maybe even learn something, and those who do know the details would be pleased to see things done right. Is that so hard to ask? I think the main problem here is the pride of movie producers, directors, script writers who want to put their own spin on the facts, do something different, and make it their own. I say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Of course, there is also the issue when dealing with ancient history, of not knowing exactly what happened. So when dealing with something like Christ carrying the cross, there is a multitude of opinions. Some think he carried the whole cross, some just the cross bar, and some that only Simon of Cyrene carried the cross. Jesus carrying the full cross is the common interpretation commonly depicted in Rennaisance paintings. The problem is that these depictions where made by men ignorant of Near Eastern and Roman archaeology/history. More recently, many scholars basing their theories on recent archaeological/historical discoveries have supported the theory of only the crossbar. Also with this theory you'll usually see a shorter "T" shaped cross depicted. There is another theory that the cross was only a vertical tree trunk, stripped of branches, with no cross bar at all. In this theory the hands would be nailed above the head. And yet another theory which believes Jesus did not carry the cross at all, since the Synoptic Gospels don't directly say that he did:
"After they had mocked Him, they took the scarlet robe off Him and put His own garments back on Him, and led Him away to crucify Him. As they were coming out, they found a man of Cyrene named Simon, whom they pressed into service to bear His cross." Matthew 27:31-2
"After they had mocked Him, they took the purple robe off Him and put His own garments on Him. And they led Him out to crucify Him. They pressed into service a passer-by coming from the country, Simon of Cyrene (the father of Alexander and Rufus), to bear His cross." Mark 15:20-1
"When they led Him away, they seized a man, Simon of Cyrene, coming in from the country, and placed on him the cross to carry behind Jesus." Luke 23:26
None of these directly say the cross was placed on Jesus, then transferred to Simon. The only Gospel which literally says that Jesus carried His own cross is John. And some have interpreted this as being symbolic of carrying a spiritual/physical hardship or burden, as when Jesus said "And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me." or [red]"If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me."[red] So the point is, no one really knows for sure. So events like this are open to interpretation, as long as that interpretation does not contradict the known |
YMHS,
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CT•Ranger
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reandy
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Posted - September 13 2003 : 12:22:30 PM
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I have read at other web sites: reviews, news, etc. about how this movie will stir up hatred between the christians and the jews. I read that the christians "hate the jews for killing Jesus".
If Jesus had to die, to pay the price for your sins, take upon Himself the sins of the world. And if the christians believe that their own personal sins are forgiven because of his death and reserection, that this is all in God's plan for saving a sinfull mankind...
Why is there this hatred toward the Jews for killing Jesus?
Wasn't this God's plan all along, his plan for your own salvation?
I see that the Jews role in Jesus's death as a part of God's salvation plan for mankind.
What am I missing??? Why is there is hatred by the Christians towards the Jews for killing Jesus? Could someone please explain it to me? |
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - September 13 2003 : 1:14:54 PM
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Reandy,
I am going to give a stab at this, and I will try to make it as brief as I can, since this is really a movie thread. And these are my own personal views on the matter.
I am a practicing, believing Christian, yet I do not hate Jews. Far from it. The Jews, or the Children of Israel, were and are the Chosen People of God. Our Lord, himself, was a Jew.
The Christian Bible does not teach hatred toward Jews, or toward anyone else for that matter. Jesus' teachings were for goodness, kindness, tolerance, patience, and above all... love... toward all mankind. In true Christianity, there is no room at all for anti-Semitism.
It is an extremely unfortunate circumstance that the relatively few Christians who say they hate the Jews place a bad name on all Christians. I wish that it were not so. It is similar to the Christians who go around shooting and killing abortion doctors. It is very, very wrong, and is not what Christianity teaches.
Everything you said about Jesus and God's plan for the world through Jesus' death and resurrection is true. And yes, the Jews played a planned part in it. It had to happen. It had to be. It was The Plan.
I am so disgusted with the news media for blowing this all up and for possibly making it much more of an issue that it probably would be. They may be guilty of inflaming people's passions.
Mr. Gibson is apparently simply trying to tell a story as truthfully and as close to historical and Biblical accuracy as he can. Not having seen the movie yet, it remains to be seen whether he is successful or not.
I hope this helps you to see that by far the greater majority of Christians do not hate the Jews! |
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Bill R
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Posted - September 13 2003 : 1:19:34 PM
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Jesus is the excuse. Not the reason. Jesus isn't even THE excuse, just one excuse Jew haters use in their justification for their bigoted hatred.
Why do Muslims hate Jews and want to see them exterminated? They come from the same forefathers.
Why do Protestants hate Catholics? They worship the same God and his son?
Why do Democrats hate Republicans? Are we not all Americans wanting our children to live in freedom? (I'm not so sure about THAT question, but that shows MY battle with bias)
Hatred has always been a powerful political tool for cynical evil leaders. Reason and tolerance are of the mind. Hatred, bigotry, and anger are emotions. Given free reign, emotions blot out reason. |
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Bill R
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Posted - September 13 2003 : 1:31:21 PM
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Please understand, mine are simplistic questions meant to illustrate a vastly complex topic.
I too, however, despise the media. It comes as NO surprise that they would rant about and find something to stir up about a movie about Jesus. They applauded the movie (I forget the title) which portrayed Jesus as a user of whores, possessing cynical ambitions, and as sinful as the rest of us. They consistently rave about Bowling for Columbine and the new movie about two high school kids arming and training themselves to blow away their fellow students (if THIS new movie isn't a guidebook on how to do it, and doesn't incite MORE of these kids to commit such acts, I'll eat Uncle Quasie's shorts). Anything patriotic or religious they denigrate or ignore. I think the answer to the question as to media's motivations can be found in their actions.
In case nobody has noticed.......the media is no longer about reporting the news. It is about generating emotions geared to an agenda.
Mel Gibson is trying to tell a story. The media doesn't like the theme or the concept of religious belief. It's a simple as that.
(note for Christina should she read this: YOU, dear, are not "The Media". You are a journalist.) |
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CT•Ranger
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Posted - September 13 2003 : 9:56:34 PM
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It's basically a few anti-christian writers who are trying to stir up controversy. Most of the stuff I've seen is not from anti-semitic writers. But rather from some Jews who are afraid the film will stir up anti-semitic sentiment. People who claim to be Christian and at the same time anti-semitic are just plain stupid. Christianity is a semitic religion, deeply rooted in Judaic beliefs.
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richfed
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Posted - September 14 2003 : 11:30:27 AM
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From WorldNet Daily, passed along to me via me bro':
A passionate Mel Gibson strikes back against critics
'I want to kill him, I want his intestines on a stick, I want to kill his dog,' he says of Times columnist
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: September 9, 2003
1:00 a.m. Eastern
© 2003 WorldNetDaily.com
Mel Gibson is passionately angry at critics of his upcoming film about the death of Jesus Christ.
In remarks quoted in the New Yorker magazine, he denied "The Passion" is anti-Semitic and accused some of those leading the chorus against the film of being "anti-Christian." Gibson said he personally has been the target of "vehement anti-Christian sentiment."
In one statement bound to add fuel to the fire of anti-Semitism charges, Gibson accused "modern secular Judaism" of trying "to blame the Holocaust on the Roman Catholic Church."
"It's a lie. And it's revisionism," said Gibson, a follower of Traditionalist Catholicism that still performs the Latin Tridentine mass. "And they've been working on that one for a while."
His film, shot entirely in Latin and Aramaic, has been planned for release next Easter, but, according to some reports, it may be out as early as this Christmas – even though it currently has no distributor.
Gibson said he has found himself caught up in a huge conflict between "big realms that are warring and battling. You stick your head up and you get knocked," he said. "I didn't realize it would be so vicious. The acts against this film started early. There is vehement anti-Christian sentiment out there and they don't want it."
About Frank Rich, the New York Times columnist who implied Gibson's father is "a Holocaust denier," the director had some choice – and inflammatory – words: "I want to kill him. I want his intestines on a stick. I want to kill his dog."
Gibson said: "He never denied the Holocaust. He just said there were fewer than 6 million."
As proof of his desire to avoid confrontation, Gibson cited his decision to cut a scene in which Caiaphas says "his blood be on us and on our children" soon after Pontius Pilate washes his hands of the captive Christ.
"I wanted it in," he said. "My brother said I was wimping out if I didn't include it. But, man, if I included that in there, they'd be coming after me at my house. They'd come to kill me."
Icon Productions, Gibson's privately owned production company, spent $25 million on the film. Marketing the project will be in the hands of Icon outside the U.S. and a yet-to-be-named distributor in the United States. Fox Filmed Entertainment, a subsidiary of News Corp., which is controlled by Rupert Murdoch, is Icon's usual U.S. distributor. But Fox has waived its right of first refusal and isn't planning to distribute "The Passion."
Alan Nierob, Gibson's publicist at Rogers & Cowan, told Forbes Icon will start showing the film to other distributors in September and that it is looking for "someone smaller, who does niche marketing." A Paramount Pictures spokeswoman says that studio is "waiting to see it."
The Passion looks as if it will inspire passion! I can't wait to see it. I don't know about the "kill" line, though ... probably a case of the written word completely misrepresenting the manner in which the words were spoken. I can picture Mel glibly saying that in his most likable manner.
Anyway ...
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Ilse
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Posted - September 14 2003 : 4:56:20 PM
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quote:
'I want to kill him, I want his intestines on a stick, I want to kill his dog,' he says of Times columnist
And what is that poor dog guilty of? Very rational man talking here apparently.
I'd be interested to know how much "fewer than 6 million" Jews were killed in the Holocaust according to his father.
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Bill R
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Posted - September 14 2003 : 8:50:18 PM
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Ilse says:
"And what is that poor dog guilty of?"
Bill says:
"Association". 
I think he was probably laughing when he said it Ilse. Probably a line from one of his Lethal Weapons films or something. 
I would believe he is expressing his frustration at how no matter what you do, what your intentions, how you explain something - one or more groups are going to bend over backwards to make an issue of it - and get lunatic fringe nasty about it. They are attacking his baby, his creation, his idea, his beliefs remember. Done at his own expense.
And perhaps he is expressing particular frustration at how some "politically incorrect" thoughts and ideas get nearly ALL the nutballs and "concerned groups" in an uproar. Christianity has become virtually politically incorrect: particularly. To stand up publicly and say you truly believe guarantees attack. It's sad.
Plus, when a star comes out publicly and states he is a Christian and proud of it, or he is for the 2nd Ammendment, or he is Patriotic he becomes a target for medias possessing different agendas. A media which reports news and allows the viewer to make his own opinion is journalism. A media which slants the news, provides the opinion, and fosters emotions to drive you to their agenda is called propaganda. Maybe that's what he is frustrated about. We have very little journalism going on in the world today.  |
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richfed
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Posted - September 15 2003 : 06:09:33 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ilse
quote:
'I want to kill him, I want his intestines on a stick, I want to kill his dog,' he says of Times columnist
And what is that poor dog guilty of? Very rational man talking here apparently.
Maybe Mel was once a letter carrier?!?
quote:
I'd be interested to know how much "fewer than 6 million" Jews were killed in the Holocaust according to his father.
Yeah, but what does his father have to do with it anyway? Such an obvious and transparent effort to smear Mel & his beliefs.
This might result in a Hollywood blacklisting, I don't know, but he's sure earned my respect, for what little that may be worth! |
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Ilse
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Posted - September 17 2003 : 7:45:04 PM
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Confession: I don't like Mel Gibson as an actor. I like the Mad Max series, because that is so over the top and not to be taken seriously at all. Anything else he made since then, I can barely watch for more than 10 minutes.
Rich, the interview you posted made me dislike him as a person as well. What does his father have to do with it? He quotes him, apparently in agreement with these statements.
quote:
Gibson said: "He never denied the Holocaust. He just said there were fewer than 6 million."
I find this an incredibly troubling statement. "He just said..."???? So, if it's 5 million then it's not so bad? One of Hitler's henchmen once said: "If we kill 500 it's mass murder, if we kill millions it's a statistic." I can't help making that connection.
Sorry, maybe not the forum for this, but I had to get this of my chest.....
Bill, in agreement with you on the degeneration of journalism and media. |
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CT•Ranger
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Bill R
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Posted - September 18 2003 : 12:25:28 AM
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Ilse, Anybody?
Has Mel Gibson EVER said anything that would lead someone to believe he is anti-semitic? Ever? What's his stand on our support of Israel? Has he ever made a statement about that?
I'm curious why it's an automatic assumption he is anti-semitic.
Seems to be the kinda guy who would support our stand with Israel, and if so, then he certainly is NOT an anti.
As far as the holocaust....it makes no diff if 5 mil or 6 mil, it's still the horror of the last century and something mankind should never forget.....though mankind certainly has: the "ethnic cleansing" of Bosnia/Serbia....the tribally oriented cleansing going on in Africa....the Killing Fields in Cambodia....the "cultural revolution" in China....and on and on. At least his father admits it occurred. It's the new black propaganda that the Holocaust never happened...as I've been told by more than one.
If we can make movies about the Holocaust without the world getting in an uproar about the movie engendering hatred for all Germans why is it Gibson can't make a movie about the Christ's crucifixion without being accused of engendering hatred for Jews I wonder? Heck, who's going to even go watch it if it is in some dead language?
Few, I'd bet. Not me! I'll wait and rent it, at best! So what's the problem? Those with the agendas know the very BEST emotive is fear, so you play on fear to achieve your agenda.....meaning, if you are anti-2nd Ammendment and want to disarm a nation, you throw out the fear guns kill and forget to mention that more people have been murdered by GOVERNMENTS than ever were murdered by criminals. If you are anti-freedom and anti-Constitutional protections, throw out the fear that Constitutional protections will get us all killed by terrorists. And, if you want to kill this particular movie because it might impede your anti-religous agenda, throw out the fear it will cause hatred of Jews and that it is somehow anti-semitic. I, for myself, think that is what is really going on.
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richfed
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Posted - September 18 2003 : 07:01:02 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ilse
Rich, the interview you posted made me dislike him as a person as well. What does his father have to do with it? He quotes him, apparently in agreement with these statements.
quote:
Gibson said: "He never denied the Holocaust. He just said there were fewer than 6 million."
I find this an incredibly troubling statement. "He just said..."????
He is correcting a misstatement. Simple.
During the Vietnam years, my Father & I were vehemently opposed to one another. If someone had misquoted him on his stance, and I corrected it, it would, by no means, mean that I agreed with him. But, what does it matter? There is nothing at all to support the notion that Mel Gibson is anti-Semitic. Nothing. So why make it an issue? To me, that is the real question. Let's see the film before - and pardon the pun - we nail Mel to the cross!
Bill, as far as the "dead" language thing goes - Mel appears to be striving for the ultimate in authenticity. Whether he succeeds or not, time will tell. I'm still not yet convinced he won't opt for sub-titles before all is said & done.
Thing is, he apparently feels that the images will be stirring enough to go out - way out - on a limb to try this. If he is anywhere near correct, those images will blow us away on the big screen. I'm there to see! |
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Bill R
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Posted - September 18 2003 : 10:24:54 AM
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| Well, I think his doing the film in the ancient languages is very daring and imaginative, but speaking from practical experience, I won't be going to the theatre to see it. I can BARELY get Betty to watch a movie with subtitles, let alone watch a movie in another language WITHOUT sub-titles!!! When sub-titles come on, Betty starts ragging me "Oh no, not another movie with sub-titles" rag rag rag poke fun, and leave. If I spent $15 to take her to a movie with NO sub-titles and in another language, there'd be a live re-enactment of the Passion right there in the movie theatre with ME on a cross and Betty driving the nails!!!! |
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CT•Ranger
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Posted - September 18 2003 : 11:04:29 AM
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I've read reviews from people who claim to have seen screenings of this film, and they say that it does have sub-titles. But there's still a lot of info out there on the internet, most of it old, which still says there are no subtitles. Basically there's a lot of confusion out there about the sub-titles issue. What I've been able to figure out so far is that there may already be sub-titles in the film. But there are none in the trailer that's out there on the internet. There's still no official website or any kind of official info out there, which would be helpful. |
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Ilse
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Posted - September 19 2003 : 5:04:56 PM
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Bill,
I don't automatically assume anything about Gibson. I simply expressed my personal discomfort with a quote from him (supposedly) posted on this board. And that is all. And I still find it a dubious quote.
Ilse |
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richfed
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 Posted - September 19 2003 : 6:39:06 PM
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So, Ilse ... great idea ... whatcha say we have an all-night Gibson-fest come June? We can watch Braveheart, then the 4 Lethal Weapons [in order, of course!], then The Patriot, then ... are you still with me?  |
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Bill R
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Posted - September 19 2003 : 7:36:20 PM
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Sounds like a great idea Rich!!! I might even come just to watch Ilse squirm uncomfortably, biting hard down on her tongue until the blood flows, eyes rolling around in her head, foam forming at the mouth........
Come to think of it, with THAT kinda overdose, even those of us who LIKE Mel might suffer those symptoms!
Ilse, actually, I wasnt asking if you were assuming if he was anti-semitic, was asking if you knew him to be or had seen/heard a quote leading you to believe he was. I had not, but that doesnt mean I have all info on him. I watch his movies, but don't study his character. I think though, as usual, media misquoted and quoted out of context. Mel was being truthful.....said his Dad accepted the Holocaust happened, but believed it was less than the figure most often quoted. And that could well be true. Does it make it any less horrible - heck no! And I'm sure Mel's Dad would say the same....but the "reporter" didn't want to make THAT point, he wanted to tar Mel with an anti-semitic brush. Mel goes off on the guy's obvious twisted misquote because from the attempted slyly worded linkage, he realizes the guy's agenda. Take a misquote, paint the Dad as an anti-semite, and the son must also be one, therefore the movie has an anti-semetic theme........so let's kill the movie. Goes back to my belief in the ultimate agenda of some secularists and anti-religous folks....kill anything religious and make us a secular society beholden only to Gov. Simple as that.
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Scott Bubar
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Posted - September 20 2003 : 10:17:33 PM
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quote:
Dog is a fine meal.
~~Benjamin Martin (Mel Gibson), The Patriot |
~~Aim small, miss small. |
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Ilse
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Posted - September 21 2003 : 1:36:15 PM
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A Mel-marathon???? YIKES! Running for cover!   Who do I have to bribe to avoid this torture???
Bill, I've been checking the origin of all this stuff and read the story about Hutton Gibson (the dad). It's in the New York Times, March 9, titled "Is the Pope Catholic enough?". This guy is not okay. I haven't found anything that extremist on Mel Gibson, though, just the article posted here. Since that is from unclear sources, it's not very reliable. |
OH HAI!
Blessinz of teh Ceiling Cat be apwn yu, srsly.
http://www.lolcatbible.com/index.php?title=Main_Page |
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CT•Ranger
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
October 14 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - September 28 2003 : 6:28:58 PM
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quote:
"I've read reviews from people who claim to have seen screenings of this film, and they say that it does have sub-titles. But there's still a lot of info out there on the internet, most of it old, which still says there are no subtitles. Basically there's a lot of confusion out there about the sub-titles issue. What I've been able to figure out so far is that there may already be sub-titles in the film. But there are none in the trailer that's out there on the internet. There's still no official website or any kind of official info out there, which would be helpful."
Apparently the screenings have subtitles, but no decision has been made as to whether the sub-titles will be included in the theatrical release. |
YMHS,
Connecticut•Ranger
Thomas Thacher
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Mel Gibson's "The Passion"
