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susank2
Colonial Settler
USA
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August 25 2007
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 Posted - September 03 2007 : 3:25:04 PM
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He doesn't elaborate in the movie...just wondering if the book went into more detail?
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RedFraggle
Mohicanite
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October 13 2006
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Posted - September 03 2007 : 5:16:08 PM
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Cooper never says exactly what happened to Hawkeye's parents, in any of the five books that make up the "Leatherstocking Tales." It's clear that they died, along with his sister, when he was a young man, but what happened to them is never explicitly described. Elsewhere on this website is an essay about piecing together a "biography" of Natty Bumppo from the scattered information Cooper gives in his novels. I've copied below the quotes relevant to Hawkeye's early life. (Hawkeye and Deerslayer are the same person, BTW.)
THE DEERSLAYER, p. 34: It was now several years since Deerslayer had been in a spot especially devoted to the uses of females of his own color and race. The sight brought back to his mind a rush of childish recollections; and he lingered in the room with a tenderness of feeling to which he had long been a stranger. He bethought him of his mother, whose homely vestments he remembered to have seen hanging on pegs like those which he felt must belong to Hetty Hutter; and he bethought himself of a sister, whose incipient and native taste for finery had exhibited itself somewhat in the manner of that of Judith, though necessarily in a less degree. These little resemblances opened a long hidden vein of sensations; and as he quitted the room, it was with a saddened mien."
THE DEERSLAYER, p. 505: "You love the woods and the life that we pass here . . . as I loved my parents, Judith, when they was living."
LAST OF THE MOHICANS, p. 54: Hawkeye, listening to the verses of a hymn, "felt his iron nature subdued, while his recollection was carried back to boyhood, when his ears had been accustomed to listen to similar sounds of praise, in the settlements of the colony."
THE PRAIRIE, p. 262: "My own eyes were first opened on the shores of the eastern sea and well do I remember that I tried the virtues of the first rifle I ever bore, after such a march, from the door of my father to the forest. . . ."
So, all we know really is that Natty had a sister, lived with his parents long enough to learn to shoot his father's rifle, and can remember his family singing hymns. The author of the essay proposes that Hawkeye was about 10 years old when he lost his parents, and suggests that they died in an Indian raid, but Cooper himself never tells us.
If you want to read the whole essay, here's the URL:
http://www.mohicanpress.com/mo06032.html
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susank2
Colonial Settler
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
August 25 2007
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Light of the Moon
Mohicanland Statesman
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
December 18 2004
Status: offline
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Posted - September 03 2007 : 9:29:46 PM
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| Now I really have to read Deerslayer! |
I live in my own little world - but that's okay, they know me here! |
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Fitzhugh Williams
Mohicanland Statesman
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July 17 2005
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Posted - September 03 2007 : 11:59:55 PM
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| No way would his father have had a rifle that early. Apparently Cooper was not much of an authority on guns. |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
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November 27 2002
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Posted - September 04 2007 : 12:36:30 PM
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| Fitz, could you explain that statement for the uninitiated, please? |
"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
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winglo
Deerslayer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 13 2007
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Posted - September 04 2007 : 1:31:24 PM
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| Yes, please explain, as I am one of the uninitiated. I am guessing that you are saying that rifles (vs. muskets or some other form of gun) were not available to most early in the 18th century. Is that the right track? |
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Fitzhugh Williams
Mohicanland Statesman
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 17 2005
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Posted - September 04 2007 : 2:29:04 PM
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| The earliest dated rifle in one from 1761, and there are those that question even that one. There are some references to rifles in newspapers dating from the time of the F&I, but nothing as to how they might have looked, or what type of rifling they might have had. There were guns imported by the Germanic peoples from about that time, and probably a little earlier, but they had a very unique style and were not particularly favored except by the Germans. From looking at Hawkeye in the movie, he has got to be at least in his 30's, so for him to be a 10-year-old with his father, that would have to have been in the 1730's. Rifles just weren't around that early. But today, people toss around the terms without actually knowing what the specific meaning is. For instance, in the Civil War, soldiers used muskets, but they could have either been smoothbored or rifled. In French, the term fusil translates as rifle, but 250 years ago it was a smoothbore. Cooper probably did not know a lot about the history of guns and simply wanted to create a persona for his lead character. |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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Light of the Moon
Mohicanland Statesman
USA
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December 18 2004
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Posted - September 04 2007 : 4:37:04 PM
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In his defense, as an author it's difficult to 100% accuracy in a storyline that's historical. Believe me, I've been writing on one for nearly 7yrs! And still am learning more and more.
But thankfully we have people like Fitz around who can clue us in. That tidbit comes in handy (for me anyway). Now I have some editing to do!
Thanks Fitz and WW! |
I live in my own little world - but that's okay, they know me here! |
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Fitzhugh Williams
Mohicanland Statesman
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July 17 2005
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Posted - September 04 2007 : 5:58:01 PM
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Just as a further note, the battle of Kings Mountain, fought Oct. 7, 1780, is usually held as an example of the backwoods rifle being matched against the British musket. Actually, it is estimated that around 40 to 45 percent of the "rifles" at Kings Mountain were actually smoothbores, sometimes called "smooth rifles" because they had the same stock architecture and furniture as a rifle. A smoothbore was a much more versatile gun than a rifle. You could load it with shot for birds and small game, or load it with a round ball for deer and larger animals. And up to 50 yards it is just as accurate as a rifle. And up to 70 yards it will put a ball in the killing zone, same as a rifle. Even at a 100 yards in the hands of a skillful shooter. And it cost less to make. So if a frontiersman could have only one gun, likely he chose the smoothbore.
Also remember, the massacre at the Monongahela was done entirely with smoothbores, as was Ticonderoga and the St. Charles.
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Obediah
Mohicanland Statesman
USA
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August 16 2006
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Posted - September 04 2007 : 8:57:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fitzhugh Williams
.....For instance, in the Civil War, soldiers used muskets, but they could have either been smoothbored or rifled......
Actually, in the ACW they would have been termed either muskets or rifled muskets, IIRC. |
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Irishgirl
Council of Elders
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
February 14 2006
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Posted - September 05 2007 : 09:19:05 AM
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Maybe Chingy killed them with his "big blue hockey stick"  so Uncas could have a "big brother" |
IG |
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Hawkeye_Joe
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 31 2003
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Posted - September 05 2007 : 2:50:13 PM
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Fitz, you are being misleading with your statements. There were rifles long before 1761, not what we know as "American longrifles" but there were rifles. You make it sound as though there were none until after the 1760's.
The French were making "Ferguson styled" breechloading rifles in the 1720's. Bouquet was issued 16 rifled carbines in May of 1758 for the Forbes campaign to Ft. DuQuesne. On 15 May 1758 Abercromby ordered Furnis to issue stores for the Ticonderoga campaign, these included 176 Carbines with rifled barrels. The German "Jaeger" rifle is known to have been brought to America in the early 1700's, it's entirely possible that Natty's father was a German/Dutchman (Lots of THEM in the Hudson Valley) who had one.
From
http://armscollectors.com/gunhistorydates.htm
Rifling was invented in 1498
Rifled arms have been made since 1540 |
HAWK
"The scum of every nation gravitates to the frontier."
Benjamin Franklin 1750
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for
lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin 1759
The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, "I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it."
"Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented immigrant" is like calling a
drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist."
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Light of the Moon
Mohicanland Statesman
USA
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December 18 2004
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Posted - September 05 2007 : 4:49:09 PM
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Some cool info in that link, HJ.
Thanks to you too!
BTW, Fitz. What type of rifles were used in the states around 1718? Helps to narrow down which one to study up on! |
I live in my own little world - but that's okay, they know me here! |
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Fitzhugh Williams
Mohicanland Statesman
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 17 2005
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Posted - September 05 2007 : 8:46:18 PM
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Joe, I did say:
quote:
There are some references to rifles in newspapers dating from the time of the F&I, but nothing as to how they might have looked, or what type of rifling they might have had.
And: quote:
There were guns imported by the Germanic peoples from about that time, and probably a little earlier, but they had a very unique style and were not particularly favored except by the Germans.
There were rifles in the 17th century, but not in America. The French made 1100 rifles for the mounted troupes in the 1730's, but none made it to New France. Jaegers were around, but in the hands of a few Germans. When you look at the known rifle builders, and when they started work, they just didn't go back that early.
(Excerpts from the Gospel according to Tom Patton) |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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Fitzhugh Williams
Mohicanland Statesman
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July 17 2005
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Posted - September 05 2007 : 8:57:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Light of the Moon
BTW, Fitz. What type of rifles were used in the states around 1718? Helps to narrow down which one to study up on!
First thing you have to ask is what location and by who. |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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Hawkeye_Joe
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 31 2003
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Posted - September 05 2007 : 11:38:19 PM
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Fitz, your opening line was the most misleading.
quote:
The earliest dated rifle in(sic)one from 1761, and there are those that question even that one.
That flat statement says there were no rifles anywhere until after 1761....when in fact there were...you have to remember that you and I have been doing this a long time and I know what you mean .. not everyone here does...Looking at known American rifle builders will not tell you what kind of rifle came here with the 18th century settlers. |
HAWK
"The scum of every nation gravitates to the frontier."
Benjamin Franklin 1750
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for
lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin 1759
The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, "I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it."
"Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented immigrant" is like calling a
drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist."
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Fitzhugh Williams
Mohicanland Statesman
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 17 2005
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Posted - September 06 2007 : 02:20:28 AM
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OK, let me say a little more. It says it the earliest DATED rifle. There are rifles out there, but we have no knowledge of when they were made. The 1761 date is for the John Schreit rifle from Reading, PA. The other rifles could have been made earlier, or later, or could have been a restocked earlier gun. We don't know. We can only go on the evidence we have, thus 1761 is the earliest a rifle can be dated as being made in the Colonies. It is certain (well, as certain as most anything 250 years old) that there were rifles (and I don't mean Jaegers) in the 1750's. There are newspapers of that time that advertise rifles for sale in PA. The thing is, we don't know what they looked like. Were they what we call longrifles? Or were they the Germanic Jaeger, or were they imported from England, or perhaps one of the German states. Rifles were certainly available to those with money, so a wealthy sportsman could have imported most anything he wanted. There are some nice books that show what the Europeans with money had at that time. And certainly the French had at least 1100 issued to their cavalry as part of a pattern series begun in 1734. That's 1100 our of a total of 25,000 for that pattern.
Now in looking at the existing guns, most are dated to the Rev War or later. There are some few that were certainly made in the 1760's, and some that were "probably" made earlier. These are what survived. The French imported hunting guns on a very large basis, but there are practically none that exist today, and of those that do, most have been restocked. A lot of what we know comes from the archaeological records of various sites, and are nothing more that some brass fittings that we can classify based on their shape and style. What happened to all those guns? Used up, probably, but we really don't know. Many more guns survived from the eastern seaboard, but how many early rifles met the same fate as the French trade guns? Or as the English trade guns, for that matter. I have tried for a long time to find out what a non-military gun in South Carolina would have looked like in 1715, but I have not yet received a satisfactory answer. Certainly they were out there, but what were they?
So for the 1780's and 1790's there are a lot of surviving examples of beautiful rifles. For the 1770's, not as many, but they are there. For the 1760's, less and the earlier in the decade, the fewer. Much is based on assigning a gun to a builder then looking at when he lived and worked, and let's face it, much of this is just speculation. For the 1750's, there were rifles. For the 1740's, I haven't seen anyone who would assign a date for a rifle to that decade, or reproduce a gun that they would assign to that decade. For the 1730's, the time of Hawkeye's youth, I really don't see how he could have had (or would have had) a rifle.
As for the Jaegers, they were a Germanic hunting gun with stocky proportions and a short, thick barrel. They are considered the source from which sprang the American rifle culture, when the Germanic gun builders moved into PA and began building guns. |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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Hawkeye_Joe
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 31 2003
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Posted - September 06 2007 : 09:58:08 AM
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Now you are informing the public.. *Two Thumbs up*
quote:
OK, let me say a little more. It says it the earliest DATED rifle.
Here you should have said "American made rifle"
But again .....where does it say that Hawkeye's dad had a American made rifle? Where was it said that he was not of German descent and might not have had a jaeger? Being orphan'd at 10 adopted by Indians and sent to an English school to learn he vooden't be schpeekingk like Sgt. Schultz now vood he? You base the whole premise that he wouldn't have had a rifle on the fact that there are no documented American made rifles around in 1730, again, who said it was an American made rifle?? It just said that he took his father's rifle out the cabin door. It's like saying that they couldn't have had a cabin because Appalachian Logs Homes Corp. wasn't founded til 1995. Ok .. that was a stretch but you see what I mean... |
HAWK
"The scum of every nation gravitates to the frontier."
Benjamin Franklin 1750
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for
lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin 1759
The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, "I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it."
"Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented immigrant" is like calling a
drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist."
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Obediah
Mohicanland Statesman
USA
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August 16 2006
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Light of the Moon
Mohicanland Statesman
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
December 18 2004
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Posted - September 09 2007 : 5:53:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fitzhugh Williams
quote:
Originally posted by Light of the Moon
BTW, Fitz. What type of rifles were used in the states around 1718? Helps to narrow down which one to study up on!
First thing you have to ask is what location and by who.
The Lenape AKA: Delaware.
And the Cherokee that were located in Cades Cove, NC at that time.
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Fitzhugh Williams
Mohicanland Statesman
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July 17 2005
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Posted - September 10 2007 : 10:52:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Light of the Moon
quote:
Originally posted by Fitzhugh Williams
quote:
Originally posted by Light of the Moon
BTW, Fitz. What type of rifles were used in the states around 1718? Helps to narrow down which one to study up on!
First thing you have to ask is what location and by who.
The Lenape AKA: Delaware.
And the Cherokee that were located in Cades Cove, NC at that time.
If you mean rifle, then the earliest documentation I have seen for Cherokee in the western NC area is 1774. I have no idea what type it would have been, but it was a rifle and not a smoothbore. It was in the writings of William Bartram. There might be earlier references, don't know. |
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Light of the Moon
Mohicanland Statesman
USA
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December 18 2004
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Posted - September 10 2007 : 4:26:25 PM
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| That's more help than you'll ever know! Because before I didn't even know where to start and now I have an idea! Thanks, Fitz! |
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Fitzhugh Williams
Mohicanland Statesman
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July 17 2005
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Posted - September 10 2007 : 5:21:34 PM
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| To be just a little more specific, Bartram is traveling in the Overhill Country and while camped encounters a Cherokee riding a horse, carrying a rifle, and singing. Bartram invites him into his camp and they share a meal. The Cherokee then goes on his way still singing. Bartram is always careful to designate the kinds of guns he sees, so when he says "rifle" I believe he means rifle. Maybe there is something in Timberlake. His writings go back to 1762 but I have never read them. Also there are the SC records in Columbia that go a long way before that. The Fort Loudoun folks go there for info. |
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Ridgerunner
Pathfinder
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
November 12 2006
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Posted - September 10 2007 : 6:14:01 PM
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This offers some info...more on the site:
http://frontierfolk.org/ky-lr.htm
The Kentucky (or Pennsylvania) Long Rifle was the most accurate long-range gun for several decades. The first documented appearance of rifling was in Germany around 1460. The flintlock was developed in the early 1600's. By the late 1600's gunsmiths were experimenting with longer barrels than the forerunner Yaeger. But it took the opening up of a new continent to bring out the best.
Circa 1725 the forerunner of the KY long rifles were being designed and built by German craftsman in Pennsylvania. After the French and Indian War brought new lands to the attention of the frontiersmen, the uniquely American long-range rifles were carried into the frontier (at that time Kentucky) by the long hunters, trappers and explorers. The actual name "Kentucky Longrifle" was first used in an 1812 song The Hunters of Kentucky. |
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RedFraggle
Mohicanite
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October 13 2006
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Posted - September 10 2007 : 7:43:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fitzhugh Williams
Cooper probably did not know a lot about the history of guns and simply wanted to create a persona for his lead character.
I think you're probably right, Fitz. After all, the man was expelled from Yale for accidentaly blowing up part of a dorm.  Oops. I think perhaps weapons were not Mr. Cooper's specialty! |
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![The Mohican Board! [Bumppo's Redux!]](images/wwwboard.gif "The Mohican Board! [Bumppo's Redux!]")
Does the book say how Hawkeye's parents died??
