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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 23 2002
Status: offline
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 Posted - September 15 2006 : 06:25:14 AM
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quote:
Light of the Moon stated:...A sense of awh having witnessed something that was disgustingly evil for its time to be relived w/out thought to the reality of the bloodshed of defenseless people? Women and children? Elderly and lame? Blind, deaf? They spared no mercy in that attack.
I commend you for having the strength to go and see such a horror resurrected. But I hope the morale behind it brought a higher level of awareness of how hate, greed, and racism can destroy man.
...I'm speechless. All that I would have brought back from this is tears. Tears and prayers that those actions would never be repeated against the Delaware.
Miss, you have just described what the average raid on a white settlement, by non-white natives, was like in the 17th through late 19th centuries. There was more than enough 'evil' to go around, and if LTC. Armstrong's men were guilty of anything, it was giving the Delaware a dose of their own medicine. As Monadnock Guide, Wilderness Woman and Seamus (A man who will forget more about Pennsylvania colonial history, than most folks will ever learn) have all said, in their own way, is that to bastardize history, is to cheapen the memory of those brave men, women and yes... children, of all sides, who lived it.
Please take Seamus' advice, and do some reading of titles (Which you will not find on any university's reading list, since the truth usually destroys their own universe constructs) that contain primary source documents of the period. What I mean by 'primary source', are works that are written by, or directly quoted of, those who were witness to, or contemporaries of, the events in question. In F&IW reenacting circles, we use the old saying, "Never trust the word of anyone born after 1740."
The Sipe's work quoted by Seamus is a good start, you may then want to move onto Loudon's Indian Narratives, which is a reprint of the book published originally in two parts in 1808 and 1811, which is also available through Wennawoods Publishing. What makes Loudon's work so fascinating is that he personally interviewed a good number of the participants, found in the various narratives. That would be like a man writting a book on the Korean War today, including the firsthand interviews of the soldiers who manned the Pusan Perimeter, and the marines who fought against all odds at Chosin.
I hope that this helps to explain "Why" a good number of us on this board are in the hobby...
YMH&OS,
The Sarge |
Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
November 27 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - September 15 2006 : 08:19:37 AM
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Very well said, Sarge! And you, too, Seamus.
Light of the Moon, while we can appreciate your opinion and your passion on this subject, I think that what we are all trying to say to you is that you need to step back, set those emotions aside for a bit, and take a look at the whole picture.
The main purpose of Col. Armstrong's raid on the Lenape village of Kit-Han-Ne was a matter of self-defense: to try to set free the British/Colonial white captives that had been taken from the frontier and were being held there, and also to attempt to put a stop to any further raids on the white settlements by the Indians.
There was no massacre. There was an offensive attack, which resulted in a skirmish between two enemies. This is what happens in war. It has been, and will always be, thus. |
"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
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Light of the Moon
Mohicanland Statesman
USA
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December 18 2004
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Posted - September 15 2006 : 11:29:05 AM
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The article was enlightened on a one-sided visual and WW I agree with you about the war envolvements. But do we know what drove the lenape into these things?
I always found it strange that the term "Hostiles" always referred to the NA people but they weren't the only one who were lashing out in that way.
And Sgr.Munro.
I don't believe you meant any disrespect by the "Miss" salutation, in fact I found it down right flattering , but I am a "Mrs", Love!
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I live in my own little world - but that's okay, they know me here! |
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Light of the Moon
Mohicanland Statesman
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
December 18 2004
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Posted - September 15 2006 : 11:38:21 AM
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Sorry all, but I do feel that if your opinoins are allowed to be heard then I should at least be entitled to mine without a railroading.
I have studied the NA/war histories and as you stated above I did venture out of the school/college textbooks since they tend to lean toward one side or the other. I tend to side w/the NA because so many things in that time were slanted to favor colonials over the NA, without looking further back to learn what exactly caused the whole "domino effect". So no, it's not "through 19th certury eyes".
And I am SOOOO glad that the re-enactment was a source of cultural exploration and knowledge gained. That was my entire point to begin with.
So your posts and defenses are heard but will not deter me from stating my opinions. It's merely that, a contrary opinion.
On a brighter note,
A great big thank you for that picture that was taken! That NA man was beautiful to behold! |
I live in my own little world - but that's okay, they know me here! |
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
November 27 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - September 15 2006 : 12:19:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Light of the Moon
...do we know what drove the lenape into these things?
Of course we do. It was the age-old fight for territory. It happened between Native tribes, as well as between Indians and Whites. It has happened since the dawn of time, and is still happening today in some parts of the world. It will ever be thus.
quote:
I always found it strange that the term "Hostiles" always referred to the NA people but they weren't the only one who were acting out in that way.
True. And perhaps they used that term for the whites, in their own language.
quote:
I do feel that if your opinoins are allowed to be heard then I should at least be entitled to mine without a railroading.
As I said, your opinions can be appreciated. I simply see other opinions being offered in return. I see no "railroading" going on here, Love. This has actually been a very interesting discussion, I think, and the latter part has been very well mannered. |
"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
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Light of the Moon
Mohicanland Statesman
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
December 18 2004
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Posted - September 15 2006 : 12:24:25 PM
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Ah! Thank you, WW.
I just don't see the point in getting worked up over an interesting topic. I much rather prefer discussion than arguement.
Anyway, thanks y'all for hearing me out!
And I recant the "railroading" comment.
Thanks for the point out, WW!
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I live in my own little world - but that's okay, they know me here! |
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Kithanne
Pathfinder
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
April 04 2005
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Posted - September 21 2006 : 8:32:07 PM
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I attended the Battle of Kittanning and had a great time!It was 3rd ReEnactment for me.Good job Seamus ReEnacting Lieutenant Colonel Armstrong!Didn't know who ReEnacted Captain Jacobs? Got some nice footage of the battle.Nice pictures of the battle on your website.I was at the 2000 Battle of Kittanning and Cook Forest ReEnactment June 2005.
Nii njoosum (Lenape for friend)
Kithanne |
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Seamus
Guardian of Heaven's Gate
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 19 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - September 21 2006 : 8:56:01 PM
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Kithanne! Why did you not make yourself known to me?? I would have really enjoyed meeting you! I wondered if you might be there.....Next time you are where I am, come over and introduce yourself.
Thanks for your kind remarks, and I am pleased that you enjoyed it so.
Nii njoosum!
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Life's journey is not to
arrive at the grave safely
in a well preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways,
totally worn out, shouting
'...holy sh*t ...what a ride!'
~~Mavis Leyrer, Seattle
Seamus
~~Aim small, hit the b*****d right between the eyes!~~ |
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Kithanne
Pathfinder
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
April 04 2005
Status: offline
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Posted - September 21 2006 : 10:23:50 PM
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Seamus. Next time there is a ReEnactment I'll make sure I stop by and introduce myself.I didn't get to see much of the encampment.By the way Larry Smail's book The Attack On Kit-han-ne was a good read.I learned alot about the history of Kittanning during the years around 1756.I also read Indians in Pennsylvania By Paul A.W.Wallace.
Nii njoosum
Kithanne |
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Seamus
Guardian of Heaven's Gate
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 19 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - September 22 2006 : 05:33:21 AM
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Nii njoosum,
I agree, Larry's book is very good and informative. He has spent some considerable time preparing it, and has done well. Wallace's book is good, too, as is Indian Wars of Pennsylvania, by C. Hale Sipe.
Custaloga Town will be held again this Spring at the Boy Scout Camp of the same name east of Meadville at Charlton, the weekend of June 17-18. Please come and see me!
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Life's journey is not to
arrive at the grave safely
in a well preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways,
totally worn out, shouting
'...holy sh*t ...what a ride!'
~~Mavis Leyrer, Seattle
Seamus
~~Aim small, hit the b*****d right between the eyes!~~ |
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Fitzhugh Williams
Mohicanland Statesman
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 17 2005
Status: offline
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Posted - September 22 2006 : 09:26:29 AM
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| The Larry Smail was indeed a good read. I assume it was very accurate, no reason to beleive otherwise. Maybe some day I will get to see that area too. Like maybe next summer. |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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Seamus
Guardian of Heaven's Gate
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 19 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - September 22 2006 : 10:59:27 AM
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Very accurate, Fitz.
Hey, if you are planning to come to Kittanning next summer, let me know when. I will try to meet you there, and if I cannot, I'll hook you up with a very good guide. It'd be great to see you again!
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Life's journey is not to
arrive at the grave safely
in a well preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways,
totally worn out, shouting
'...holy sh*t ...what a ride!'
~~Mavis Leyrer, Seattle
Seamus
~~Aim small, hit the b*****d right between the eyes!~~ |
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Fitzhugh Williams
Mohicanland Statesman
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 17 2005
Status: offline
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Posted - September 22 2006 : 1:58:33 PM
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| What I am thinking about is a side trip. I am planning to go the the Grand Emcampment #3 at Crown Point in August, and a trip to Fort William Henry in September. I will probably go through Virginia on I-81, so a detour to western PA on the way back is not so much out of the way. It's still too early to plan everything, but that is the general idea. Too many sites, too little time! |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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Seamus
Guardian of Heaven's Gate
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 19 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - September 22 2006 : 4:07:56 PM
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From I-81/I-80 junction to Kittanning is about 3 1/2-4 hrs..........to Pittsburgh from there is 45 minutes to 1 hr, from Pgh back to 81 south in Maryland is about 2 1/2 hrs +/-..........
FYI |
Life's journey is not to
arrive at the grave safely
in a well preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways,
totally worn out, shouting
'...holy sh*t ...what a ride!'
~~Mavis Leyrer, Seattle
Seamus
~~Aim small, hit the b*****d right between the eyes!~~ |
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Fitzhugh Williams
Mohicanland Statesman
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 17 2005
Status: offline
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Posted - September 22 2006 : 4:40:35 PM
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| From just a quick look at the map, it looks like the best way to WH might be I-81 to Binghamton, then I-88 toward Albany, so a detour on the return trip via I-80 would not be bad at all. I like the I-81 route because it stays away from all the traffic to the east. |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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Seamus
Guardian of Heaven's Gate
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 19 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - September 22 2006 : 4:47:18 PM
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You will pass WH on your way to and from CP on I-87, the Northway. You will be less than 3/4 mile from WH as you pass Lake George Village!
I-81 is heavily traffic-laden from top to bottom. It will take you a FULL day, probably 2, to do what you want on your way home. |
Life's journey is not to
arrive at the grave safely
in a well preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways,
totally worn out, shouting
'...holy sh*t ...what a ride!'
~~Mavis Leyrer, Seattle
Seamus
~~Aim small, hit the b*****d right between the eyes!~~ |
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Fitzhugh Williams
Mohicanland Statesman
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 17 2005
Status: offline
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Posted - September 22 2006 : 7:16:16 PM
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I went up I-81 last year to OBV, and this year all the way to Syracuse, NY, and I didn't think there was particularly heavy traffic. But then I am used to I-85 in the Carolinas and Georgia, which is a parking lot some of the time.
My return trip took two days this year, so when coming back, that is not a problem. |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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Seamus
Guardian of Heaven's Gate
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 19 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - September 22 2006 : 9:44:14 PM
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| If you can pick the right time of day, it is generally OK, but it can be bumper to bumper at 75 or better. Last year when we went to Tennessee to the Alvin York Chunk Shoot it was that way from PA through VA into TN until we split off on 40. |
Life's journey is not to
arrive at the grave safely
in a well preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways,
totally worn out, shouting
'...holy sh*t ...what a ride!'
~~Mavis Leyrer, Seattle
Seamus
~~Aim small, hit the b*****d right between the eyes!~~ |
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Fitzhugh Williams
Mohicanland Statesman
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 17 2005
Status: offline
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Posted - September 22 2006 : 11:48:10 PM
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| I looked at MapQuest to see what they say is the best route, and they gave me I-81 as well. So I guess that is the way I will go. Actually, I kind of like it. Great country in the Shenandoah Valley! I have three more events this fall, and I am already planning for next year! Actually three very good events this fall. But somehow the F&I ones in PA and NY seem better. |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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Seamus
Guardian of Heaven's Gate
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 19 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - September 23 2006 : 06:07:13 AM
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I agree that it is the best when going from there to here and north/east. My experiences are that it can be clogged often, but there really is no other route.
The Shenandoah Valley is gorgeous, for sure! My daughter lives in the upper end of it in Northern VA, and the Fall is a wonderful time to be there. That whole NY corridor of it is stunning in early-mid October!! That is my alltime favorite time of year...too bad it doesn't last 6 months or more.
We have three more events, too, before we are done with things this year. Hard to believe how fast it went by. We will soon be sitting down to choose things for 2007....time does fly when you are having fun!
The only real Southern event I have been to was Petersburg, with the 42nd RHR, St. Malcom McWilliam and the lads. It was.............'OK', but I do recall thinking, "I came all this way for THIS??" I think events seem better here and in NY because this is where they happened. Being on the actual field or site of something adds so much to an event. One's mind begins to really wonder, "What was it really like here when this was all going on?", or, "Did they see those hills over there like I do?", "Were they as hot/cold/wet/skeeter bitten and miserable as I am now?" I know, for sure, that they weren't having as much fun! |
Life's journey is not to
arrive at the grave safely
in a well preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways,
totally worn out, shouting
'...holy sh*t ...what a ride!'
~~Mavis Leyrer, Seattle
Seamus
~~Aim small, hit the b*****d right between the eyes!~~ |
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Fitzhugh Williams
Mohicanland Statesman
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 17 2005
Status: offline
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Posted - September 23 2006 : 10:53:57 AM
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| Just about everything in the South is Rev War, mainly because nothing much F&I happened here. Just a few isolated places. Some of the folks are going to Yorktown in October, but I will let that one pass. I heard too many bad things about the last one in 1981, and I don't really expect anything to be much different this time. But some of our unit will go as part of the 6th NC, mostly because it is the 225th anniversary and all. There were some good Southern events in the last two years. Charleston in 2005, and Guilford Courthouse this year. But most of the events were, well, just events. And I much prefer F&I. But the ones that really stand out, at least to me, are the OBV Braddock's Defeat and this year at Fort Ontario. I wouldn't trade Charleston or Guilford Courthouse for either one of those. And I can see next year being even better. I started to go to Louisbourg this year, but the fact is, I wasn't ready. I just didn't have the things I needed. I believe that is probably the best F&I site in America, and probably the world. I just hope I am not disappointed, but I don't think I will be. That will be in 2008. |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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Seamus
Guardian of Heaven's Gate
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 19 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - September 23 2006 : 2:36:51 PM
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HUZZAH!
Maybe I will see you there! |
Life's journey is not to
arrive at the grave safely
in a well preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways,
totally worn out, shouting
'...holy sh*t ...what a ride!'
~~Mavis Leyrer, Seattle
Seamus
~~Aim small, hit the b*****d right between the eyes!~~ |
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Fitzhugh Williams
Mohicanland Statesman
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 17 2005
Status: offline
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Posted - September 23 2006 : 9:13:59 PM
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| I hope so!!! I just want to stand on the ramparts and watch Madam Drucour fire the cannon. |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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