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Originally posted by SgtMunro



"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"

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Originally posted by richfed

Another Bush supporter checkin' in! And, PROUD of it!!

I'm sorry, Adele, homosexuality is immoral behavior. Tax dollars should not support it. Unless, of course, we are ready to declare ourselves immoral societies.

And, let's nip this in the bud, before someone attempts this argument. Our laws ARE [some anyway] based on morality; right/wrong; the 10 Commandments; the list goes on ...

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Let us, in our opinions, and in the general public's eyes, not one day end up like Le Fortunato.

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May I commend you on your most excellent choice of quote...

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I still stand by my argument. The "major" laws - against rape, child molestation, murder, theft, etc. etc, are based on moral values. Without morality we have Lord of the Flies, or worse.

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Originally posted by richfed

... And, let's nip this in the bud, before someone attempts this argument. Our laws ARE [some anyway] based on morality; right/wrong; the 10 Commandments; the list goes on ...

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1: And God spake all these words, saying,
2: I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3: Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4: Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6: And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7: Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8: Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9: Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12: Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13: Thou shalt not kill.
14: Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15: Thou shalt not steal.
16: Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17: Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
18: And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.
19: And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
20: And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
21: And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.
22: And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.
23: Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.
24: An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.
25: And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.
26: Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.

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Originally posted by Scott Bubar

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Originally posted by richfed

... And, let's nip this in the bud, before someone attempts this argument. Our laws ARE [some anyway] based on morality; right/wrong; the 10 Commandments; the list goes on ...

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Hedging our bets a bit, aren't we, Rich?

Well, here they are (King James):

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1: And God spake all these words, saying,
2: I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3: Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4: Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6: And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7: Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8: Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9: Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12: Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13: Thou shalt not kill.
14: Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15: Thou shalt not steal.
16: Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17: Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
18: And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.
19: And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
20: And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
21: And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.
22: And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.
23: Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.
24: An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.
25: And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.
26: Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.

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I don't see anything about homosexuality or gay marriage in there.

Unless it

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Originally posted by Scott Bubar

... Richfed: "Our laws ARE [some anyway] based on morality; right/wrong; the 10 Commandments"

Hello Scott, sorry for intruding, but I think what richfed was referring to was our LAWS.. and he is correct, we have laws against killing, stealing, bearing false witness...

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Originally posted by Scott Bubar
I don't see anything about homosexuality or gay marriage in there.

Unless it's that bit about coveting your neighbor's ass.

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OK, I stand corrected ... the ACT of two people of the same sex having sex is immoral behavior. So is the guise of their relationship being natural - to be supported - applauded? - by society at large. I'm sorry, but the love between a man & a woman is THE most beautiful relationship on this Earth. It is the ONLY one that leads to the most precious gift of all those God has given us.

I still stand by my argument. The "major" laws - against rape, child molestation, murder, theft, etc. etc, are based on moral values. Without morality we have Lord of the Flies, or worse. I said "some." I was being conservative, for the benefit of the doubt. I believe, truly, "most."

As for Anthony ... as I've said elsewhere - I like him a lot. We had a very good relationship back in the 70s when we worked together. He really is a great guy. That does not mean I have to approve of his "situation." Nor will I applaud it so as not to hurt his feelings. IT IS WRONG! Any religious or legal sanction of it is WRONG. Not just wrong ... SICK ... OK? Any doubt as to where I stand?

Homophobe Rich

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Originally posted by Scott Bubar


I don't see anything about homosexuality or gay marriage in there.

Unless it's that bit about coveting your neighbor's ass.

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Originally posted by Christina

Just to clarify a little bit the whole "Is homosexuality the act a sinner or being a homosexual the sin?"
The majority of the mainstream denominations including Roman Catholic, Southern Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, Episcopalian, etc. traditionally have had a "love the sinner, hate the sin" approach to this meaning that it was not the PERSON who is gay/lesbian that is being condemned, but the ACT. Roman Catholics and other denominations have traditionally instructed men and women who feel these inclinations to be celibate. Some denominations have said that ordained clergy can be gay but must be celibate. (i.e. prior to the mess with Gene Robinson being elected bishop in New Hampshire, in the history of the Episcopal church there were several bishops who posthumously had been discovered to be homosexual but had lived their lives in celibacy.) There are several ordained Lutheran ministers around the U.S. who have identified themselves as gay/lesbian but have taken vows of celibacy.
I know there are varied opinions about this, I'm just stating what I've seen to be the general attitude toward the act, rather than the person. There are some denominations, especially the Southern Baptists, who actively espouse movements that are meant to "deprogram" homosexuals and turn them straight. I have serious doubts about those, but that's not the topic here.
"Love the sin, hate the sinner" is the de facto attitude in many of the faith groups I've encountered. I would rather have that attitude than discrimination or out and out hate like the idiot Fred Phelps, so-called "pastor" of the Westboro Baptist Church in Kansas. This evil man and his minions travel to gay events and funerals of AIDS victims and victims of gay-bashing and hold up signs that say things like "GOD HATES F--S." (perjorative for gays, I'm not using it...)
This guy even showed up at the funeral of gay-bashing victim Matthew Shepard in Wyoming and held up signs like this. How this man and his minions can even hold their heads up in public and identify themselves as Christians amazes me.
Anyway, this is just an example of how wide the opinion field is on this subject among the community of Christians and "so-called" Christians.
Christina

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So, I quickly typed it into my online translator...and typed back to him.... it is 'kus mijn ezel' (am thinking Ilse may be laughing about now....!).

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Originally posted by securemann

Christina,when you said,"Love the sin,hate the sinner",did you actually mean,"Love the sinner,hate the sin"?

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