| Author |
 Topic  |
|
susquesus
Mad Hermit of the North Woods
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 03 2003
Status: offline
|
 Posted - December 16 2003 : 02:06:16 AM
|
Anyone heard about the traditional Tibetan burial?
After the lama leads you through your journey out of your body and into the "Bardo-thotrol" (lit. "place in-between"), when your body is of no more use to you, after the mourning and ceremony are completed, reciting mantra's he flays your corpse open and leaves it as a flock of vultures descends to consume it.
A special breed of vulture has evolved in Tibet due to their long standing tradition of allowing birds to pick clean the corpses of the recently deceased. The birds dine on humans to this day and have developed beaks strong enough cut through our bones. I'm not nuts about the idea of being pumped full of preservatives, dressed up, made-up, and sealed in an airtight container in a vault. I'd thought about cremation, but hey, this way- your bits get 'et up, fly around awhile and then get randomly deposited somewhere. Sounds alright. Anyone's thoughts on what to do with with the old skin suit?
|
|
report to moderator
|
|
|
Dances with Beagles
Colonial Settler
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 19 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - December 16 2003 : 8:22:40 PM
|
Susquesus:
You are a man of many interests...I was not aware that this was one of them!!!
Does this tradition continue to this day, with the Chinese occupation of Tibet, the persecution of the lamas, etc.? And if not, have these vultures developed a taste for, um, live carrion??!!!
quote:
Sounds alright. Anyone's thoughts on what to do with with the old skin suit?
The land is for the living. I'm thinking cremation...unless they develop a better compost bin than the one I have in my backyard...(the circle of life and all that). And while I can respect the Tibetan way, it might be considered to be.....should I say it......for the birds?!!! (sorry, couldn't help myself!)
|
report to moderator  |
|
|
susquesus
Mad Hermit of the North Woods
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 03 2003
Status: offline
|
Posted - December 16 2003 : 11:31:46 PM
|
| Indeed, it does continue, not as widespread as it was pre-invasion, though. Where once there were thousands of monasteries containing millions of monks to perform the death rites there are now only a few scattered here and there throughout the country. Somewhere I have a couple photos of the process in progress, I'll post something when I find it. I'm sure that vulture population must have suffered in the past 55 years, religious practice was brutally suppressed during the cultural revolution. It is only within the past two decades that the restrictions have been slightly loosened as the Chinese realised the potential tourist dollars available. |
| report to moderator |
|
|
susquesus
Mad Hermit of the North Woods
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 03 2003
Status: offline
|
Posted - December 17 2003 : 12:27:54 AM
|
Image Insert:
78.83 KB
There we go, I think this was shot in the 80's. If it wouldn't bother my family I think I'd be comfortable with the idea. |
| report to moderator |
|
|
susquesus
Mad Hermit of the North Woods
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 03 2003
Status: offline
|
Posted - December 17 2003 : 01:05:08 AM
|
"At Drigung Monastery in central Tibet, a family from Lhasa arrives, carrying the body of their deceased father in a wooden box. In the early morning the boards are pried open and the corpse- swathed in white prayer scarves - is seated in the monastery's central courtyard. Following the practices contained in an eighth-century text entitled "Opening the Door of the Sky" the monks sit before the body and perform powa, transferring the consciousess of the dead man directly to the celestial spheres. The rite continues until the top of the skull begins to swell, indicating that the concsciousess has been successfully ejected from the body. The corpse is then carried on the back of one of the monks up the steep slope behind the monastery.
At the top of the ridge, on a platform of stones encircled by prayer flags, the tomden, or yogin-butcher, unwraps the body and slices it from head to toe, exposing the underlying flesh and bones. Drawn by the smoke from the juniper fire and the smell of fresh meat, huge vultures begin to gather on the surrounding rocks. The dead man's friends and family add handfuls of purifying juniper needles to the smoldering incense burner, the fragrant smoke rises as an ephemeral link between the human world and the world of unseen spirits. His soul already transferred to celestial space, the dead man's body is used to benefit other living beings - those who offer as well as those who consume. The majestic vultures-thought by Tibetans to be manifestations of flesh-eating dakinis- glide down from the high ridges and surrounding rocks and dance restlessly around the tomden and the unveiled corpse.
"Shey shey" (eat, eat), shouts the tomden, stepping back off the stone platform with his flaying knife. The birds descend, enveloping the dead man's body in a frenzy of dark, shifting wings. The man next to me-a friend of the deceased-turns and says: "In Tibet we are told we should witness a sky funeral at least once. Seeing what awaits all of us, we won't waste our lives.""
This is from the book where the above photo came from. It's called, "Tibet: Reflections From the Wheel of Life". |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Lainey
TGAT
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 18 2002
Status: offline
Administrator |
Posted - January 04 2004 : 03:33:20 AM
|
Very, very interesting, Susquesus.
The Tibetan 'sky-burial' seems to conflict with the western world's (& most non east-Asian world cultures) traditional ideas & sensitivities regarding respect for the dead. Bodies are especially prepared for the afterlife & burial sites are considered sacred by most people. Can't imagine it'd ever gain popularity outside Tibet.
|
"Fides et Ratio" |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Scott Bubar
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - January 04 2004 : 10:49:26 AM
|
A radical drop in the vulture population has caused problems for the Parsees, a renmant of the Zoroastrians.
They traditionally expose the corpse for consumption by vultures. The Parsees in Bombay have "The Towers of Silence" for this purpose. As of a couple of years ago, the drop in vultures was creating serious problems for them. They were experimenting with solar reflectors to speed up decompostion, and the Brits had offered them help establishing a vulture aviary, but this idea was apparently killed by fictional infighting.
I don't know where it stands now.
The vulture shortage has created a much larger problem for India as a whole. Packs of dogs have moved in to take the vultures' place in disposing of animal carcasses. The government appears to be doing little to address the the problem, I gather. |
~~Aim small, miss small. |
| report to moderator |
|
|
susquesus
Mad Hermit of the North Woods
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 03 2003
Status: offline
|
 Posted - January 04 2004 : 9:22:08 PM
|
"The Tibetan 'sky-burial' seems to conflict with the western world's (& most non east-Asian world cultures) traditional ideas & sensitivities regarding respect for the dead. Bodies are especially prepared for the afterlife & burial sites are considered sacred by most people. Can't imagine it'd ever gain popularity outside Tibet."
-Lainey
Yes. Death rituals in the west are for the sake of the survivors . Make the corpse pretty, allow loved ones an opportunity to grieve and find closure. It is a shell. There is no reason to embalm a corpse, put it an airtight vault, allow it to stay there until well after a person's loved ones have themselves passed. I'm all for getting rid of my own corpse. I don't need to take up valuable real estate. Give me to the animals or cremate and spread me over a national forest or Lake Superior or something. The whole embalming, burial thing just seems wrong. We came from the earth, we should return to it. The old pine box six feet under formula is fine- it's just all the chemicals and airtight chambers that are too much. We get too attached to our bodies. We need to remember that the length of even our longest lived peoples lives is a mere moment in a much longer existence of our species. Then the age of our species is dwarfed by age of the earth which is inconsequential compared to the lifespan of our milky way galaxy which is in itself one of the few remaining sparks of the big bang which is older still. Then you get into dimensions and the probability of an infinite amount of earths in countless realities.
And we're worried about our skin suits. We just need to take into consideration the scale, scope and magnificence of the universe and relax a little bit. |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Kaylynn44
Mohicanite
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 13 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - January 04 2004 : 9:46:01 PM
|
I agree that the body is just a shell, so I am a body donor. I don't know if there will be much left that is any good by the time I die, but if anybody can benefit from the organs out of a body that I no longer need, or if they just need to cut my body open for medical students to learn, then that is what I want to do.
Kay |
~ An Infinite Zephyr~
Some things never end
As long as goodness exists
Winds shall always soothe
www.cloudsbooks.com
|
| report to moderator |
|
|
Kurt
Mohicanite
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 27 2003
Status: offline
|
Posted - January 05 2004 : 06:19:57 AM
|
| I seem to remember that northern Plains Indians built platforms (sometimes in trees) instead of burials but had no luck outside of a finding a painting when I tried an internet search. |
Yr. obt. svt.
Kurt |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
November 27 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - January 05 2004 : 08:45:22 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kaylynn44
I agree that the body is just a shell, so I am a body donor.
Good for you, Kay! I will be an organ donor as well, assuming, as you say, that there will be anything worth using. 
As for whatever "remains", I want the rest to be cremated and my ashes to be placed into a shallow hole in the ground (no urn or box!) in the Snells Bush Church Cemetery in Manheim Township, Herkimer County (in the Mohawk Valley), New York. That is where many of my Palatine ancestors are buried and where my heritage is. I want to be there. No urn sitting on a table or mantel for my descendants to take care of. Yuck!
However, the genealogist in me does want a "grave" stone... somewhere... as a permanent record (other than paperwork) that I once walked this earth. If some of my descendants 200 years from now are trying to find "me", I want them to be able to. Who knows whether paper records will even still be around then... and electronic records could get lost in repeated format changes.
I'll be getting a new body anyway! |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Christina
Deerslayer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 27 2002
Status: offline
|
 Posted - January 07 2004 : 4:46:37 PM
|
Amen to what you said, Susquesus!!!  I personally wouldn't mind the old vulture treatment but as I'm not in Tibet, if tomorrow I get hit by a truck I want somebody to cremate me and dump me in the ocean, with a simple ceremony on the beach with somebody playing "Amazing Grace" and a few of my favorite Celtic traditionals on a bagpipe.
More and more people I come across, of all faiths and persuasions, are choosing cremation, which I think is a good thing. However, I don't quite understand the increasingly popular practice of cremating folks and then walling them up in a crypt, as was done to my cousin Jules last year. an "entombment" they called it. Okay, so what's the point of burning the body, then sliding it into a big cement vault that might as well just have a traditional body in it for all the space the whole thing takes up???
A few years ago my aunt, who had been suffering for years with cancer, died and it was discovered that in her final papers she had specifically asked to be cremated and scattered over a beautiful field near their home, because she had not been able to enjoy the simple joy of running and enjoying the outdoors for so long -- she wanted her ashes, in spirit, to give her that opportunity. Instead, her husband had her buried so the "kids would have something to visit." To this day, that breaks my heart.  That woman had suffered for 10 years and then her last wishes were denied so the survivors could be made to feel better...I feel they could have put up a memorial stone or something...
Donating bodies to science is also cool with me. But as for the vulture thing...intriguing, but probably no dice in this country.
Interesting post, Susquesus! Thanks!
Christina
|
See this face? This is the face of a woman on the edge.
Whoopi Goldberg, "Jumping Jack Flash"
|
| report to moderator |
|
|
richfed
Sachem
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 13 2002
Status: offline
Administrator |
Posted - January 07 2004 : 6:55:00 PM
|
 Hmmm ... Well, color me boring ... color me old-fashioned ... but when the life runs out of this ole body, lay me to rest - intact - 6 feet under, in the womb of Mother Earth. |
| report to moderator |
|
|
securemann
Deerslayer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 08 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - January 07 2004 : 10:46:18 PM
|
| Now Rich,where do you want to be planted? In Brooklyn,Long Island,East Mountain Road or on the old grounds of the once famous Wingdale Lunatic Asylum.I know,you'll stay right down where you is in ole N.C.and take up some earth down yonder. |
| report to moderator |
|
|
securemann
Deerslayer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 08 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - January 07 2004 : 11:00:36 PM
|
| Hey,that reminds me! Has anyone ever heard of the singer John Prine? He made a song about not wanting to be buried in the cold,cold ground.If I can remember some of the lyrics:"Please don't bury me down in the cold cold ground,I'm gonna have them cut me up and pass me all around,throw my brain in a hurricane and the blind can have my eyes,and the deaf can take both of my ears if they don't mind the size.Give my stomach to Milwaukee if they run outta beer....... |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
November 27 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - January 08 2004 : 08:19:27 AM
|
| Hey Jim! I remember John Prine. Way back in the 70s. Don't think I remember that song though... funny! |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Kaylynn44
Mohicanite
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 13 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - January 08 2004 : 08:58:57 AM
|
Hey Rich,
You sound like my parents. They are definitly planning on being buried, although I do think that they are organ donors. Everybody feels differently on this subject too. I have a friend and she said that there is no way that she would ever donate her eyes because she wanted to see when she got to heaven. I asked her if she was just kidding and she wasn't. She was serious. She felt that if she donated her eyes, then she would never be able to see the Lord. I didn't agree with her, but I felt like we all need to do what we feel is best.
Kay |
~ An Infinite Zephyr~
Some things never end
As long as goodness exists
Winds shall always soothe
www.cloudsbooks.com
|
| report to moderator |
|
|
Kaylynn44
Mohicanite
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 13 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - January 08 2004 : 09:05:03 AM
|
Jim,
I remember John Prine, but I don't remember that song. The song that I couldn't get out of my head last night when I read your response to Rich about "down yonder" is a childhood song that we used to always sing. I can't remember all of the words, but what you mostly sang was, "Way down yonder in the paw-paw patch" Now you would think that it would have something to do with the south, but if memory serves me, it actually had something to do with Hawaii, because I also remember something about the hula in that song. OK, I know that I am WAY off subject here, so I will be quiet now.
Kay |
~ An Infinite Zephyr~
Some things never end
As long as goodness exists
Winds shall always soothe
www.cloudsbooks.com
|
| report to moderator |
|
|
Gadget Girl
Gatherer of Gathering Gadgets
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - January 08 2004 : 11:07:55 AM
|
Remaining off topic...Now Kay...is that the same song where it goes..."Pickin' up paw-paws, puttin' 'em in a basket"? We called my grandfather Paw-Paw, and I always thought this song referred to his garden...until I got older and knew more words to the song. Still think of him when I am reminded of it!
Back on topic - kind of get an eeeeecky feeling about vultures in general, but DEFINITELY want to be cremated (always had a fear as a child of worms crawling through my eye sockets - must'a been a movie I saw...) IN FACT, it is in my will that I want to be cremated and two Mohicanlanders are named to take my daughter with them and scatter my ashes off the rims of the Chimneys at Table Rock (Top of the World). NOW THAT would put you to flying a bit too! 
GG  |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Lainey
TGAT
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 18 2002
Status: offline
Administrator |
Posted - January 08 2004 : 12:04:34 PM
|
quote:
Death rituals in the west are for the sake of the survivors . Make the corpse pretty, allow loved ones an opportunity to grieve and find closure.
Not only the west has elaborate death rituals. People everywhere, through the ages, have had very significant practices & rites to honor their dead. It has to do with a prevalent belief in an afterlife.
Question; Do you think the Egyptians mummified, or the nomadic peoples of the middle east who carried out detailed body preparations before placing the deceased in a cave they'd not likely revisit, or any other number of death rituals throughout the world - do you think it was about closure for them? |
"Fides et Ratio" |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Gadget Girl
Gatherer of Gathering Gadgets
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - January 08 2004 : 1:42:51 PM
|
Mummification - Hmmm, now that's what I call closure!
;-) GG |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Lainey
TGAT
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 18 2002
Status: offline
Administrator |
Posted - January 08 2004 : 2:46:16 PM
|
That it is, Diana.
But why's everybody stuttering? |
"Fides et Ratio" |
| report to moderator |
|
|
susquesus
Mad Hermit of the North Woods
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
September 03 2003
Status: offline
|
Posted - January 09 2004 : 12:58:40 AM
|
"Question; Do you think the Egyptians mummified, or the nomadic peoples of the middle east who carried out detailed body preparations before placing the deceased in a cave they'd not likely revisit, or any other number of death rituals throughout the world - do you think it was about closure for them?" -Lainey
Culturally, yes. The common people did probably much as they do now according to their particular traditions.
Regarding ancient Egypt and the Pharonic lines in particular I say no. The dead were doing it for themselves in order to insure their happiness in the afterlife. They brought food, water, animals, servants, riches- all of it to the grave with them in order to provide for the hereafter. In addition they mummified so the person would not look different after they were dead, so they would recognize themselves, not decay. Have you done any gardening? You know how when you plant a seed you put a small mound of earth over it to fertilize it and encourage it's growth and development? That's what the Pharoahs were trying to do with their pyramids, their body as the seed, the pyramid for the mound.
Of course naturally preserved mummies are a different thing altogether, a natural oddity. What about the mummification of bodies by a community? The preservation and public showing of Lenin's mummy in Moscow or Lama-ist cultures in central Asia for instance. Here we see mummification for posterity, or meditation by the people.
At any rate many now believe that the body is the temporary abode of the soul. A husk that falls away at the harvest. Thus the preservation of the body is useless and only for vane purposes or for the survivors comfort.
Nonetheless all of these responses to death are incredibly interesting to examine. For most of us the most disturbing part of life is knowing that it will end. Self awareness of mortality is a confusing and horrifying prospect. Learning how a number of cultures confront the mystery of the experience of death can help you bring your own mortality into perspective.
Each person, each culture, each religion finds a way to respond to the end of life. They come up with an explanation. A systematic, formulaic way to live life and understand and except your own impermanence. Religion/philosophy is a necessary response to the conditions we face in our human existence. They assuage your ultimate fears and offer a way to enjoy the time leading up to your own inevitable demise.
I personally totter between the comfort found in the belief in a unifying force in the universe and the fear that it's all just chance. I want to believe, I'm just not sure that I do.
 |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Kaylynn44
Mohicanite
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 13 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - January 09 2004 : 08:25:58 AM
|
That was interesting about the mummification. Too bad for the servants and animals though!!!
Kay
PS Hey Diana, that is the song:-) |
~ An Infinite Zephyr~
Some things never end
As long as goodness exists
Winds shall always soothe
www.cloudsbooks.com
|
| report to moderator |
|
|
Scott Bubar
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - January 28 2004 : 5:40:05 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Bubar
A radical drop in the vulture population has caused problems for the Parsees, a renmant of the Zoroastrians.
They traditionally expose the corpse for consumption by vultures. The Parsees in Bombay have "The Towers of Silence" for this purpose. As of a couple of years ago, the drop in vultures was creating serious problems for them. They were experimenting with solar reflectors to speed up decompostion, and the Brits had offered them help establishing a vulture aviary, but this idea was apparently killed by fictional infighting.
I don't know where it stands now.
The vulture shortage has created a much larger problem for India as a whole. Packs of dogs have moved in to take the vultures' place in disposing of animal carcasses. The government appears to be doing little to address the the problem, I gather.
Came across the following quite coincidentally today:
Vet drug 'killing Asian vultures' (BBC)
A fascinating and rather scary story. Three species are faced with possible extinction.
An excerpt:
quote:
Dr Debbie Pain, a research scientist at the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, said: "In the 1980s, [Gyps bengalensis] was thought to be the most abundant large bird of prey in the world, but in little over a decade, the population has crashed by more than 99%, with the loss of tens of millions of birds.
"The decline of Asian vultures is one of the steepest declines experienced by any bird species, and is certainly faster than that suffered by the dodo before its extinction. If nothing is done these vulture species will become extinct."
|
~~Aim small, miss small. |
| report to moderator |
|
|
snowland_boy
Lost in the Wilderness
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
January 14 2006
Status: offline
|
Posted - January 14 2006 : 10:57:43 AM
|
i am a new comer here and i am a tibetan, just a few minutes ago I was searching for Tibetan sky-burial for my interest in reading this night, i am here so glad that you guys are interested in this topic, I am here got many things about this rituals!~ if you want to know more about this, please send me email I will do my best to introduce,
This ritual is still practiced in Tibetan in this very days, I als used to join this ritual two times but the first is frightening but the last one is more sad than to afraid!
this ritual is more sacred than and ordinary death ritual!~
Perhaps more Culture and Religion is conbind in this ritual!~
I also one time used to take pictures about this but a pity that pictures are not taken by digital commera.
by the way, the musics are touching, I am sure that movie is very great one! |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Topic |
|
![The Mohican Board! [Bumppo's Redux!]](images/wwwboard.gif "The Mohican Board! [Bumppo's Redux!]")
Tibetan "Sky-burial"
