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richfed
Sachem
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 13 2002
Status: offline
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 Posted - August 24 2003 : 06:47:01 AM
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You know, ever since I learned that I was to be a proud owner of a rifled flintlock - and now that I am one - I've been envisioning something that I was always aware of, but for some reason, has taken on the aura of reality ...
A rifleman is in the woods, firing upon a Frenchie, or a Brit, or perhaps an Indian. He gets a shot off, but the enemy continues to approach. In a life or death race against time, he must reload and fire again. That is intense pressure. For some reason, I can better feel it now!
I've always read that a proficient soldier of the day could get off 3 shots per minute. That, I believe, was in reference to a smooth-bore musket.
My question: What is an acceptable rate of fire, under circumstances such as these, for a rifleman? I cannot imagine getting off 3, well-placed, shots per minute!
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Seamus
Guardian of Heaven's Gate
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 19 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - August 24 2003 : 07:57:14 AM
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You are right, Rich, a rifleman's rate of fire is slower because of the extra steps of pouring a measured charge and patching the tight-fitting ball. The musketman utilizes a prepared paper cartridge and his weapon is a smoothbore, and the ball is relatively loose-fitting.
It is possible, however, to increase his rate of fire in such a situation by skipping these steps and dumping a quick-count (counting to 3 quickly) charge directly from his horn (NOT EVER to be done in a controlled firing scenario), dropping a ball without patching and not ramming the load, but rather, stomping the butt on the ground to seat the ball on the powder. He then primes and fires and reloads. He will often place several balls in his mouth for easy accessibility. This can be done very rapidly with practice. (Mountain men on horseback load this way and call it 'spitting the ball' down the bore, which they actually do!) An experienced shooter can snap-shoot a target quite well with practice. Precise aim was not always needed....all he needed was good hand-eye coordination....not that difficult. Any trapshooter will testify to that.
There are potentially deadly violations of several safety items here an this is NEVER to be done by anyone who is not very, very experienced. And then, only under controlled circumstances and with lots of practice. I have done this and it is exciting! Keep in mind that such actions were desperation actions and were the only option open at the time to one under fire.
In the 'old days', however, these woods runners used their rifles all the time every day like we use cell phones today and were intimately familiar with their weapons and how to use them........ |
Life's journey is not to
arrive at the grave safely
in a well preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways,
totally worn out, shouting
'...holy sh*t ...what a ride!'
~~Mavis Leyrer, Seattle
Seamus
~~Aim small, hit the b*****d right between the eyes!~~ |
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Hawkeye_Joe
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 31 2003
Status: offline
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Posted - August 24 2003 : 2:49:35 PM
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Very good account Seamus, This method was used to great effect by Lewis Wetzel against several Indians while on the run. It is also attributed to Simon Kenton in a chapter in "The Frontiersman" by Allen Eckert. This is the running and reloading technique, with variations, that Mark Baker taught to DDL for LOTM.
Rich I have a friend who was curious about the rate of fire he could obtain with his rifle gun so at Va.'s Explore park several years ago on the Woods Walk rifle range he had me time him. Now mind you this was starting with an unloaded rifle. He loaded and fired 3 shots in just under 90 seconds using bag and horn and precut pre-lubed patches. Not the round machine cut type but square knife cut ones he had prepared. He did not hit his target, a small triangle of metal about 30 yds away, but he came close. I believe that if he had started with a loaded rifle he could have easily fired 3 shots in a minute's time. He cut a lot of corners and spilled a lot of powder trying to quickly measure it, I wouldn't allow him to pour directly down the barrel, it but he got off his shots and came very close to putting hits on the target. Keep in mind the only thing pressuring him was the clock, no Redcoats or redskins bearing down or shooting at him. |
HAWK
"The scum of every nation gravitates to the frontier."
Benjamin Franklin 1750
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for
lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin 1759
The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, "I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it."
"Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented immigrant" is like calling a
drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist."
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Scott Bubar
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - August 24 2003 : 3:02:22 PM
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| If you're shooting rapidly like this, do you need to worry about live embers left in the barrel when you pour the new powder in? |
~~Aim small, miss small. |
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Seamus
Guardian of Heaven's Gate
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 19 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - August 24 2003 : 4:00:28 PM
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| You sure do, Scott. This is one of the 'potentially deadly safety violations' I spoke about. However, in mortal combat, the risk is acceptable. One way to avoid losing the whole hornfull is to pour a pile into your hand and keep your face away as you dump the powder from your hand. I'll risk a burnt hand anyday to a bomb going off if a horn ignites! |
Life's journey is not to
arrive at the grave safely
in a well preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways,
totally worn out, shouting
'...holy sh*t ...what a ride!'
~~Mavis Leyrer, Seattle
Seamus
~~Aim small, hit the b*****d right between the eyes!~~ |
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Many Flags
Colonial Settler
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
August 13 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - August 24 2003 : 4:30:38 PM
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| OK, Many Flags will chime in. A good British soldier could load and fire 4 times a minute. Sjt. MacWm., my cousin, can do about that, and he doesn't drill as often as he might!! Use of a cartridge, the loading and firing in about 15 seconds time, and all muskets going off at once, ..this was the "beauty" of the Brown Bess and the British army during F and I and Rev. War. Now, take me, the humble rifleman, and I admit, I don't "drill" as much as I should either. I can probably get off a well aimed shot, using powder measure, patching that I cut as I need, NOT using a short starter, and priming from my horn (not a small priming horn)....it takes about a minute,....although I haven't timed myself lately. It takes time to measure out powder, place the ball in the patching (which I keep in strips on my bag), start the ball, cut off the patching, work the ball down the bore, then prime and fire....compared to pulling a cartridge, priming, pour powder and push ball in with finger, pull rammer, ram down quickly, and fire. Ok, there's my two shillings. Pax Aye!! M. Flags |
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Seamus
Guardian of Heaven's Gate
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 19 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - August 24 2003 : 5:14:31 PM
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| Aye, Cousin Flags, do you remember the times, though, when we had some of those little ....ahem....disagreements....with the Shawanese or those Lenape near the Great Island when we had to load and fire as fast as we could? I recall Davey Gunn getting so winded running from an ambush that he swallowed a ball! Took some doing after we finally got things under control, but we eventually got that ball back, if you remember! Ha! We made Davey keep it, and he later used it very effectively! Then there was the fight at Duquesne when we supported Major Grant and things were so hot and heavy.....just before we went down wounded. I did not measure one charge or drive a patch at all that day, and my barrel was so hot I burned my fingers on it. |
Life's journey is not to
arrive at the grave safely
in a well preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways,
totally worn out, shouting
'...holy sh*t ...what a ride!'
~~Mavis Leyrer, Seattle
Seamus
~~Aim small, hit the b*****d right between the eyes!~~ |
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Scott Bubar
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - August 24 2003 : 10:02:54 PM
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I hope you folks aren't putting the balls in your mouths.
I know it was done in the old days.
My little brother used to keep lead pellets in his mouth when hunting with the air rifle. He's not quite right in the head now.
OK, he's fine, but there are limits to pc. |
~~Aim small, miss small. |
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Seamus
Guardian of Heaven's Gate
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 19 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - August 24 2003 : 10:06:58 PM
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| Not as a steady diet, Scott. My brother isn't quite right in the head, either, but it is more for other reasons! Haha! |
Life's journey is not to
arrive at the grave safely
in a well preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways,
totally worn out, shouting
'...holy sh*t ...what a ride!'
~~Mavis Leyrer, Seattle
Seamus
~~Aim small, hit the b*****d right between the eyes!~~ |
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English Trader
Pioneer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
June 25 2002
Status: offline
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Posted - August 26 2003 : 8:04:45 PM
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Scott,
I was recently at a competition in PA with a good friend, and he did indeed load the musket balls into his mouth. No patch, very fast with the powder and ramrod, and I think he got of 5 easily in one minute. His 5 shots (yes, with a rifle) hit 6 targets little targets (charcoal briquets hanging some distance), and so he broke the event record with that. Shooting that fast is NOT easy.
I would not recommend loading your mouth with musket balls unless, as Seamus said, you are very exprienced, and unless you are prone to being calm, cool, and collected so you don't swallow one!
YHOS,
English Trader
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Bubar
I hope you folks aren't putting the balls in your mouths.
I know it was done in the old days.
My little brother used to keep lead pellets in his mouth when hunting with the air rifle. He's not quite right in the head now.
OK, he's fine, but there are limits to pc.
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A Shooting Scenario - Rate of Fire
