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richfed
Sachem
USA
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 Posted - July 26 2003 : 06:44:57 AM
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Poll Question:
One of the very earliest discussions on this Mohican Board, back in 1997 - and a recurring one through the years at that! - was the question of whether Hawkeye says "subtle" or "sudden" in the line: ... face to the North and real [blank]-like turn left. Well, now with the DVD subtitles, it is a mute point. He does, in fact, say sudden.
All that aside, which do you feel he should be saying? Which of the two would have the most impact? Sudden or Subtle?
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
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 Posted - July 26 2003 : 09:39:48 AM
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Wellllll... guess I'll face to the Boards, and real sudden-like start typing...
I like the more comic feel the word "sudden" gives so I voted for that. It gives me a funnier visual image of someone actually making the moves, sort of turning on one's heel. "Subtle" presents a calmer, more thought-out movement, that is not as funny.
Actually though, I question whether the 18th century Hawkeye would have added the "like" on the end. That seems like (hah!) it would be a 20th century idiomatic phrase. What would he have more "likely" said, even though not necessarily grammatically correct? "real sudden"... "real quick"...
CT-R, if I remember correctly, you have knowledge of English language development over the centuries, right? Would you have any comments on his use of the word "like" tacked onto the word "sudden"? |
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morgaine
Pioneer
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Posted - July 27 2003 : 07:46:35 AM
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I voted for "sudden". It fits the mood because he is, I think, being ironic with Duncan.
I agree with Wilderness Woman that it creates an image too. |
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Lurking Huron2332
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Posted - July 27 2003 : 5:37:20 PM
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| In "Albions Seed, Four British Folkways in America" (D.H. Fischer, 1989) the use of the work "like" to mean "as if" (e.g. "He looks like he is dead") started in the colonial Chesapeake area but was never found in New England. This is not the same usage as "real sudden like", but similar. I doubt a northerner would utter that expression. |
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caitlin
Bumppos Tavern Patron
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Posted - July 27 2003 : 7:41:00 PM
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I always thought it was "subtle". Seems like it would be more of a dig...
caitlin |
Jack McCall: "Should we shake hands or something, relieve the atmosphere. I mean how stupid do you think I am?"
Wild Bill Hickok: "I don't know, I just met you."
"A nation with no regard to it's past will have little future worth remembering."
A.Lincoln
"Enjoy the little things, for one day you may look back and realize that they were the big things"
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Jo
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Posted - July 28 2003 : 01:33:55 AM
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I must admit; I think this is one of Michael Mann's attempts to make Hawkeye's speak more "Everyman" in that the word, rather it was "subtle" or "sudden" is followed by "like". I guess we should be happy there isn't a "you know" after the "like". I do agree with Caitlin, that there was a, to me, a definate dig at Duncan, to which I'd say he said "subtle"; at least on my VHS version of the dark shadows. How does one know if the DVD is the same sound tack as our VHS? Maybe he cleaned that up also? Questions Questions Questions.
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CT•Ranger
Colonial Militia
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Posted - July 28 2003 : 10:49:42 PM
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Well this was never a question in my mind. Always thought it was sudden, never even would of thought of subtle. I agree with all the posters who doubt the usage of "like." Lurking Huron 2332's post is quite right.
I believe Hawkeye would have spoken English with an 18th century New England twang. It was a second language to him and he would have picked up the accent of his teacher. Very little of the script of LOTM was correct to 18th century speech ways. One thing I really liked about the DVD version was the cutting out of all those sarcastic remarks of Hawkeye's which were not true to the literary character at all. Also I don't believe "real" before sudden or subtle would be correct for 18th century New England speech ways.
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Connecticut•Ranger
Thomas Thacher
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richfed
Sachem
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Posted - July 29 2003 : 7:16:12 PM
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Golly dang, I saw it exactly the opposite, CT. Never doubted for a moment that he said, "subtle." "Sudden" never crossed my mind. Not until discussion on the old Mohican Board. I was a stalwart then that he did, in fact, say, "subtle." Oh well ...
But I'm with Jo & Caitlin on this. Though I agree with you on the DVD aspect, originally, MM thought to make Hawkeye a smartass. "Subtle" seems much more sarcastic and appropriate, to my way of thinking. |
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Sunshine
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Posted - August 17 2003 : 10:25:17 AM
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| I agree with Rich on this. To me "subtle" is a much better dig than "sudden". It was like Hawkeye was saying to Duncan you are so dumb, let me put this in slow motion so even you can understand it. |
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patrice
Lost in the Wilderness
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Posted - August 23 2003 : 08:57:12 AM
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| with the "real 'sudden' like" thing in the film going to Kantuckee. I never thought it would be anything but sudden, as subtle didn't seem to be a workd associated with anything to do with the film or that era. If one was walking in one direction and then turned left "real sudden like", where does the word subtle enter into it? Really. Some argumentative person trying to score points somewhere me thinks. |
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Bill R
Colonial Militia
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Posted - August 23 2003 : 12:14:08 PM
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I'd go for sudden also. Subtle just doesnt seem to fit. Not in context of picking a direction at any rate. "Hey! Where's west?"
says one guy. "Well, face North, then turn to the left sudden like" says the other guy. You know, like the command Left - FACE!.
Now say it again. "Hey! Where's west?" And the guy says with lisp "Well, face North, then turn to the left real subtle like". And first guys says "Huh? Subtle like? What the heck does THAT mean? You mean half way? Part way? Just a little bit? HOW MUCH dammit?"
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Doc M
Great Quack Healer of the Frontier
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Posted - August 25 2003 : 1:47:15 PM
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1) People under 3'2" are NOT ALLOWED to vote in this poll!
2) ...and he says "Subtle!" dammit! Subtle, subtle, subtle!!!
Sudden-like is a breed apart and makes no sense!! Subtle-like
is a lot more wise-a** and slyly funny. PS as to the argument
that when you use close-captioning it does say subtle, it has
been my experience that even the close-caption stuff gets things
wrong and leaves out lines in speeches -- I don't necessarily
mean LOTM, but a lot of other movies that I've watched.
Doc M |
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Bill R
Colonial Militia
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Posted - August 25 2003 : 1:54:22 PM
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I'm surprised you even know the MEANING of the word "subtle" since subtle you AIN'T Doc. There's nothing "subtle" about whacking small, defenseless, innocent gnomes with a huge mallet, nor grinding them up into buttery like substances. There's NOTHING subtle about Snookums there, and there ain't nothing sublte about the huge red lensed candle lamp outside your establishment.
Humph.
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Doc M
Great Quack Healer of the Frontier
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Posted - August 25 2003 : 7:01:50 PM
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Hey, if you're gonna bump it, bump it with a trumpet, I always
say!!
PS And QUIT PEEING IN MY HOT TUB, you hellacious little hobbit!!!
Doc M |
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ConfusedOne
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Posted - August 30 2003 : 02:18:28 AM
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I was the one that put "either" but know i wish that i would have put "subtle". "Subtle" does make it a little funnier. no matter.
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Cherokee Nation. Cherokee Tribe.
So proud to live. So proud to die.
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chasis_22
Colonial Settler
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Posted - April 28 2004 : 9:34:42 PM
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| I have to say that him saying sudden would come across to me as more of a snide remark than subtle. The word subtle itself makes me think slow and sweet....sudden is more fast and rude. I dunno maybe it's just me. |
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Ithiliana
Colonial Settler
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Posted - April 29 2004 : 3:35:54 PM
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wow... i never realized this was something people were unsure about... i always thought he said "subtle". it never occured to me that it could be something else...
*needs to have her hearing checked*
oops...
i think i like them both equally... they creat 2 different images for me, both of which are funny ^^ |
Le Poisson Rouge Seudois du Chaos
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rydergrl
Colonial Settler
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Posted - May 05 2004 : 8:48:47 PM
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| I guess I was one of those people who never even recognized that Hawkeye could be saying something other than "sudden like." That's just the way I heard it and what made sense to me. |
What you give of yourself is priceless. |
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Emily
Colonial Settler
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Posted - June 27 2005 : 8:31:10 PM
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Sudden-like sounds best to me, so that's what I say it is.
Please no one chew me out. |
"It is the unknown we fear when looking upon death and darkness, nothing more." |
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xHanx
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Posted - June 28 2005 : 08:51:51 AM
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| Sudden like. He is being sarcastic as to the direction he is taking, so when Duncan asks him (quoting from memory eeek) "how is it you are heading West?" Nat tells him the direction rather than what Duncan really wants, the reason. I think "subtle" is a little to subtle for Nathaniel's straight talkin'in my humble opinion. |
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Redbird
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Posted - June 28 2005 : 12:53:20 PM
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| I'm still not sure *what* he's saying... I always thought I heard "subtle like", even after someone here mentioned it was "sudden". I think I agree with Ithy that both images are funny. :-) I thought maybe he was using "subtle" in the sense of "tricky" or sly - like Le Renard Subtile? Can't remember if "renard" is supposed to have an "e" at the end either?! |
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Subtly Sudden!
