![The Mohican Board! [Bumppo's Redux!]](images/wwwboard.gif "The Mohican Board! [Bumppo's Redux!]") |
|
| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Theresa
Bumppo's Tavern Proprietress
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
|
 Posted - July 04 2003 : 08:49:48 AM
|
"But whatever may be our fate, be assured...that this Declaration will stand. It may cost treasure, and it may cost blood; but it will stand, and it will richly compensate for both. Through the thick and gloom of the present, I see that brightness of the future, as the sun in heaven. We shall make this a glorious, and immortal day. When we are in our graves, our children will honor it. They will celebrate it with thanksgiving, with festivity, with bonfires and illuminations. On its annual return they will shed tears, copious, gushing tears, not of subjection or of slavery, not of agony and distress, but of exultation, of gratitude, of joy. Sir, before God, I believe the hour is come. My judgement approves this measure, and my whole heart is in it. All that I have, and all that I am, and all that I hope, in this life, I am now ready here to stake upon it; and leave off as I begun, that live or die, survive or perish, I am for the Declaration. It is my living sentiment, and by the blessing of God it shall be my dying statement, Independence, now, and Independence for ever."
~~~John Adams
|
Theresa |
|
report to moderator
|
|
|
richfed
Sachem
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 13 2002
Status: offline
Administrator |
Posted - July 04 2003 : 10:46:06 AM
|
Man, those words ... !
Happy Birthday, America!! |
report to moderator  |
|
|
Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
November 27 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - July 04 2003 : 3:15:00 PM
|
Wow!! Excellent quote, Theresa, from a man whom I admire greatly. He has been much overlooked and underrated, until recently.
 Liberty!!
Huzzah! Huzzah! Huzzah!
|
| report to moderator |
|
|
Scott Bubar
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - July 04 2003 : 6:34:00 PM
|
| I swiped it and posted it two other places. |
~~Aim small, miss small. |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Scott Bubar
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - July 05 2003 : 10:18:17 AM
|
It has come to my attention that John Adams didn't actually say this.
Daniel Webster did.
He used it as a "supposed speech" of Adam's while delivering his address at the memorial service for both Adams and Jefferson at Faneuil Hall following their deaths within hours of one another on Independence Day, 1826.
Adams did, however, write the following in a letter to Abigail dated July 3, 1776:
quote:
The Second Day of July 1776, will be the most memorable Epocha, in the History of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated, by succeeding Generations, as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance by solemn Acts of Devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with Pomp and Parade, with Shews, Games, Sports, Guns, Bells, Bonfires and Illuminations from one End of this Continent to the other from this Time forward forever more.
You will think me transported with Enthusiasm but I am not. I am well aware of the Toil and Blood and Treasure, that it will cost Us to maintain this Declaration, and support and defend these States. Yet through all the Gloom I can see the Rays of ravishing Light and Glory. I can see that the End is more than worth all the Means. And that Posterity will tryumph in that Days Transaction, even altho We should rue it, which I trust in God We shall not.
|
~~Aim small, miss small. |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Theresa
Bumppo's Tavern Proprietress
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - July 05 2003 : 10:32:06 AM
|
| Hmmm, Scott, I must consult my source. But I think we all agree that those are powerful words. I'll get back with you later. |
Theresa |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Theresa
Bumppo's Tavern Proprietress
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - July 05 2003 : 10:48:41 AM
|
OK, Scott, upon further review I see that my source is was form UK. Perhaps this one is more reliable: 
Nothing of importance happened today.
~~~~~ King George III in his diary - July 4, 1776 |
Theresa |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Scott Bubar
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - July 05 2003 : 3:58:43 PM
|
You've got to watch those UK folks, Theresa. They're devious.
Webster-as-Adam's speech appeared in the McGuffey Reader. Although it is made clear that it is a "supposed" speech, generations of Americans would have had this in their heads as Adams, so it's little wonder there's some confusion.
Furthermore when you compare Webster's words with the letter, you can see Webster knew what he is talking about--he is only putting his own oratorical spin (which after all was what he was famous for) on Adams own words and thoughts.
It's tempting to think Webster had direct access to the letter. He of course had access to Adams himself and also Jefferson--I recall reading that Webster discussed with Jefferson Adams' performance at that time, which Jefferson, in spite of his differences with Adams, cast in a very good light and describing him as their leading speaker--though more in terms of content than oratory. Although I believe the congressional sessions were closed, Jefferson would no doubt have kept notes, which he may well have shared with Webster.
Okay, I found a quote regarding Jefferson's statements to Webster on this, though I'm not sure of the source:
quote:
John Adams was our colossus on the floor. Not graceful, not elegant, not always fluent, in his public addresses, he yet came out with a power, both of thought and of expression, which moved us from our seats.
|
~~Aim small, miss small. |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Theresa
Bumppo's Tavern Proprietress
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - July 05 2003 : 5:03:48 PM
|
| Well now it does make sense that John Adams could have been given credit for those words. ...and thanks for all your information. One always learns something here in Mohicanland. Oh, and by the way, I've got English and Irish blood running all through my veins...and after watching "The Patriot" again last night I am so proud to be an American. |
Theresa |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Scott Bubar
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - July 06 2003 : 5:15:23 PM
|
For all its historical flaws, The Patriot really does speak to us on an emotional level, doesn't it?
It has the same effect on me.
(But I can see where it would seriously annoy our British cousins, and those of African descent, with good reason.) |
~~Aim small, miss small. |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
November 27 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - July 06 2003 : 10:39:49 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Bubar
It has the same effect on me.
...and on me too! As you said, Scott, even with its flaws... there is just something about that movie. |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Adele
The Huggy Merchant
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - July 07 2003 : 02:22:52 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Bubar
For all its historical flaws, The Patriot really does speak to us on an emotional level, doesn't it?
It has the same effect on me.
(But I can see where it would seriously annoy our British cousins, and those of African descent, with good reason.)
Ah Scott...we are getting used to it! Must be something about the accent..we do make the best villains 
HM |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Scott Bubar
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - July 07 2003 : 9:58:20 PM
|
Yes, Brits do make excellent villains. And perhaps it does have something to do with the accent. That would explain why all those German officers in the movies used to speak with a British accent.
I think what really bugged many Brits about the movie was the church-burning scene. Not only did the British never do this, but the Germans did in France during WWII, so it was rather a cheap shot, especially considering the director is German.
Now dragoons under Lord Rawdon (serving under Tarleton, aka Tavington) did attack Waxhaw church, and Lord Rawdon did burn the Presbyterian Meeting House on Waxhaw Road. And Tarleton did defend this, saying "All Presbyterian churches are shops of sedition". But there's no record of anyone being inside the church at the time that I know of. |
~~Aim small, miss small. |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Adele
The Huggy Merchant
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - July 09 2003 : 2:59:31 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Bubar
Yes, Brits do make excellent villains. And perhaps it does have something to do with the accent. That would explain why all those German officers in the movies used to speak with a British accent.
I think what really bugged many Brits about the movie was the church-burning scene. Not only did the British never do this, but the Germans did in France during WWII, so it was rather a cheap shot, especially considering the director is German.
Now dragoons under Lord Rawdon (serving under Tarleton, aka Tavington) did attack Waxhaw church, and Lord Rawdon did burn the Presbyterian Meeting House on Waxhaw Road. And Tarleton did defend this, saying "All Presbyterian churches are shops of sedition". But there's no record of anyone being inside the church at the time that I know of.
I am long past worrying about the portrayal of the English as the bad guys....altho I do have the occasional cringe at the historical films which are then taken as gospel by the less informed viewer. Braveheart, despite being a wonderful movie and a personal favourite of mine, is one such example. Edward Longshanks will, in the minds of most moviegoers, be forever perceived as an evil, demonic tyrant, whereas in reality, he was one of the most successful English monarchs and took a huge interest in the welfare of his people. William Wallace, our wonderful movie hero, was reputed to skin his victims alive, among other delightful acts!
I have to say though...sometimes...no-one can play a villain like a Brit!! Think Alan Rickman in Die Hard or Robin Hood, Anthony Hopkins in Silence of the Lambs or Tim Roth in Rob Roy. Who could do it better?!!
HM |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Theresa
Bumppo's Tavern Proprietress
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - July 09 2003 : 5:05:36 PM
|
| ooooo...I agree Adele! Alan Rickman in "Robin Hood" was wonderful. In my opinion, he stole that movie...much like DD-L did in GONY...now, talk about a villain!! |
Theresa |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Fitz Williams
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 19 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - July 09 2003 : 10:32:49 PM
|
While the burning of the church in "The Patriot" was fictitious, there are incidents which were similar, although on a lesser scale.
The following quotes are from a book entitled "Partisans and Redcoats" by Dr. Walter Edgar, Professor of History at the University of South Carolina.
The following concerns Major James Wemyss:
"He burned 'scores of houses belonging to the inhabitants living on the Peedee, Lynch's creek, and Black river '."
"When Mrs. John Frierson refused to reveal where her husband was hiding, she and her four-year-old son were locked in her house, and it was set ablaze. Eventually they escaped when the heat from the fire drove the guards from the door. In an act of 'mere wantonness,' pigs, chickens, 'and every living thing that could be caught, were thrown into the flames and burned to death.' "
Wemyss "…personally saw to the destruction of the Indiantown Church."
The following concerns Colonel Banastre Tarleton in pursuit of Francis Marion:
"Before he left the area he burned thirty plantations…"
"He visited the plantation of the late General Richard Richardson and exhumed the general's corpse. Neither this effrontery nor a flogging could force Mary Cantey Richardson to reveal Marion's whereabouts. As she and her three children watched helplessly, the legionnaires took what they wanted from the Richardsons' home and barns. What they did not want, including provisions and farm animals, was locked in the barns. Then all of the buildings on the plantation were set on fire."
Concerning Lord Cornwallis:
"If these actions had been committed in the 1990's instead of the 1780's, Lord Cornwallis and a number of his subordinates, such as Banastre Tarleton and James Wemyss, would have been [indicted] by the International Tribunal at the Hague as war criminals."
There are many, many more examples of similar occurrences in the book. It is well worth reading.
Well, I am off to Brattonsville to fight the British, and maybe kill a few wounded when no one is looking.
|
| report to moderator |
|
|
Lainey
TGAT
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 18 2002
Status: offline
Administrator |
Posted - July 10 2003 : 04:14:32 AM
|
quote:
Well, I am off to Brattonsville to fight the British, and maybe kill a few wounded when no one is looking.
I think the civilized custom of war would require you to kill 'em all, wouldn't it, Fitz? 
I wonder if 'Colonial' Joe Hinson is still fighting down in Brattonsville ...
quote:
I am long past worrying about the portrayal of the English as the bad guys....altho I do have the occasional cringe at the historical films which are then taken as gospel by the less informed viewer. Braveheart, despite being a wonderful movie and a personal favourite of mine, is one such example. Edward Longshanks will, in the minds of most moviegoers, be forever perceived as an evil, demonic tyrant, whereas in reality, he was one of the most successful English monarchs and took a huge interest in the welfare of his people. William Wallace, our wonderful movie hero, was reputed to skin his victims alive, among other delightful acts!
True, true, true ... Edward Longshanks, if you must have a king, is exactly the sort of king you must have. English common law was one of his works, wasn't it? Braveheart, a film I really, really like is incredibly skewed historically. [The fictitious affair with Isabel can only be seen as an intended slap in the royal face by Scots patriots.] And you mentioned Alan Rickman in 'Robin Hood' ... King John of Magna Carta fame (a little arm twisting, notwithstanding). I guess it's a question of degrees - how much historical inaccuracy is too much to justify artistic license, & how negligible can film be for a poorly informed public?
[Only a true Brit could turn a Fourth of July thread into a Greater Britain awareness ad!]
|
"Fides et Ratio" |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
November 27 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - July 10 2003 : 09:00:34 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lainey
[Only a true Brit could turn a Fourth of July thread into a Greater Britain awareness ad!]
LOL!!! And more power to her...!!
Adele, I think you must add Jason Isaacs (as Col. Tavington in The Patriot) to your list of "Brit Bad Boys." I thought he was quite chilling. But, how can a movie villain have such beautiful eyes??
Hey Rich... Thanks for letting Lainey out of her "Den" for awhile!! It's nice to read your posts, Lainey, on some... um... lighter topics.
On the subject of Col. Banastre Tarleton, "Bloody Ban", I would just like to add that his reputation for cruelty was well deserved. Here is another example:
"[Col. Abraham] Buford [and 400 Continentals] had retreated from Camden toward Charlotte, in North Carolina, on the approach of Cornwallis. Tarleton, with seven hundred cavalry and mounted infantry, was sent in pursuit. By a forced march of one hundred and five miles in fifty-five hours, he overtook Buford, on the Waxhaw (May 29th, 1780), and almost surrounded him before the republican leader was aware of his approach. Tarleton demanded his instant surrender upon the terms granted at Charleston. Buford refused compliance. While flags for conference were passing and re-passing, Tarleton, contrary to military rules, made preparations for assault when that conference should end. The instant he received Buford's reply, his cavalry made a furious charge upon the unprepared and astonished Americans. All was confusion. Some resisted; others threw down their arms and begged for quarter. None was given, and men without arms [weapons] were hewn in pieces by the British cavalry. One hundred and thirteen were slain; one hundred and fifty were so maimed as to be unable to travel; and fifty-three were made prisoners, and graced Tarleton's triumphal march into Camden.
Tarleton received the special favor of Lord George Germain, for the cold-blooded massacre; and 'Tarleton's quarter,' became the synonym for cruelty. It was the war-cry for vengeance of the patriots in the field afterward.
This massacre spread terror throughout the interior of South Carolina. Families fled from their homes in the pathway of the invaders, until there was no place of refuge for them. The exasperated patriots were ready to fight..."
From an article by Benson J. Lossing.
Atrocities were committed in the war by all parties involved: British, Indians, and Americans. |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Fitz Williams
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 19 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - July 10 2003 : 11:16:04 PM
|
quote:
I wonder if 'Colonial' Joe Hinson is still fighting down in Brattonsville ...
Very much so. His unit, the New Acquisition Militia, is the host unit for the weekend. Very appropriate, since Brattonsville is in what was the New Acquisition District in 1780. At last count there were going to be over 300 reenactors there. I will be with the SC Rangers. |
| report to moderator |
|
|
richfed
Sachem
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 13 2002
Status: offline
Administrator |
Posted - July 11 2003 : 05:44:24 AM
|
Hey Fitz ... Give Joe our regards & tell 'em he's been missed!!!
WW - there is no controlling Lainey ... but you've probably figured that out by now!! :) |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Adele
The Huggy Merchant
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - July 11 2003 : 3:14:21 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lainey
[Only a true Brit could turn a Fourth of July thread into a Greater Britain awareness ad!]
Hehehe....fourth of july...that's a special day??!!  Now just wait until we get to November 5th - see how (and what) we Brits celebrate!!
HM |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Fitz Williams
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 19 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - July 11 2003 : 11:53:35 PM
|
quote:
Now just wait until we get to November 5th
Every year the Battle of Camden is recreated on the first weekend in November. (The actual battle was in August). That Saturday sometimes falls on Nov. 5. Whether it does or doesn't, the Brits hold a celebration with a lot of singing and merry making, and burn a likeness of Guy Fawkes. The Patriots, for their part, fire a few cannon in their general direction. Afterwards there is a party for all. Unfortunately, all this is closed to the public, unless, of course, that "public" slips on a hunting shirt and leggins in the parking lot, and quietly makes his way back in. |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Scott Bubar
Colonial Militia
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - July 12 2003 : 07:04:01 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lainey
[br ... [Only a true Brit could turn a Fourth of July thread into a Greater Britain awareness ad!]
How true.
The same thing happened to me on another forum. The conversation degenerated into a discussion of class and the relationship of Marmite to same. |
~~Aim small, miss small. |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
November 27 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - July 12 2003 : 08:47:03 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Adele
Now just wait until we get to November 5th - see how (and what) we Brits celebrate!! HM
Ahhh... yes... Guy Fawkes Day!!
This may surprise you, Adele, but there are still remnants of that celebration in parts of very rural New England. When I first moved to the far northern part of New York State (which is technically not in New England, but is logistically quite close), I was surprised to see that at Halloween (Oct. 31) nearly everyone put out on their front porch... a dummy all stuffed with straw. He wasn't burned, but was merely put on display in various comical poses and attitudes... some extremely creative, like hanging by his fingers out a barn window.
My husband asked someone what these dummies were for and she replied, "Well, I'm not sure why, but it's a 'Guy Fox.' It's just something we do around Halloween." We then concluded that these people, many of whom are descendants of early English settlers, were carrying on a modification of the tradition that had been handed down through the generations. They just didn't know why!
So when my kids were old enough, we began putting out a "Guy Fox" on our front porch. The tradition lives on...... |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Adele
The Huggy Merchant
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - July 12 2003 : 12:31:34 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Bubar
[How true.
The same thing happened to me on another forum. The conversation degenerated into a discussion of class and the relationship of Marmite to same.
Ahhhh...now I could wax lyrical on the subject of Marmite.....but I will contain myself.....(for now! )
HM |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Adele
The Huggy Merchant
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - July 12 2003 : 12:40:08 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wilderness Woman
Ahhh... yes... Guy Fawkes Day!!
This may surprise you, Adele, but there are still remnants of that celebration in parts of very rural New England. When I first moved to the far northern part of New York State (which is technically not in New England, but is logistically quite close), I was surprised to see that at Halloween (Oct. 31) nearly everyone put out on their front porch... a dummy all stuffed with straw. He wasn't burned, but was merely put on display in various comical poses and attitudes... some extremely creative, like hanging by his fingers out a barn window.
My husband asked someone what these dummies were for and she replied, "Well, I'm not sure why, but it's a 'Guy Fox.' It's just something we do around Halloween." We then concluded that these people, many of whom are descendants of early English settlers, were carrying on a modification of the tradition that had been handed down through the generations. They just didn't know why!
So when my kids were old enough, we began putting out a "Guy Fox" on our front porch. The tradition lives on......
Sighss....Guy Fawkes Day.....it just ain't what it used to be in my day....there were the cries of 'penny for the guy' from the kids on the street with their little Guy Fawkes models (usually Dad's best work shirt and pants stuffed with newspaper, and a football for a head)....Now you are more likely to get mugged for a damn sight more than a penny, or have a firework thrown in your general direction by some pimply adolescent in need of an attitude adjustment! 
I have very fond memories of going every year to the relations house...being provided with hot tomato soup, roasted chestnuts, and all sorts of other goodies we weren't allowed at home..like chips and candy...holding sparklers at arms length....and then watching Uncle John light the fireworks in the backgarden to happy sounds of 'ooooohhhhhh....aaahhhhhhh' from all the children watching from behind the safety of the patio doors. Happy days!!
HM |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
| The Mohican Board! [Bumppo's Redux!] |
© 1997-2025 - Mohican Press |
|
|
| Current Mohicanland page raised in 0.44 seconds |
 |
|
Topic Locked
