| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| susquesus |
Posted - January 15 2005 : 10:36:58 PM
Imagine you could step into Michael Mann's fantastic way back machine and arrive in the world as portrayed in the 1992 Last of the Mohicans film one week before the story begins. Given the option of spending one day in this world who would you most want to meet and eat breakfast with? What would you talk about, what would you ask them? For sake of this question pretend that you would appear in the proper attire and have knowledge of their particular language, customs, etc... |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| James N. |
Posted - August 15 2008 : 3:16:08 PM
Well Irish, to try & "help" you, I'll also observe that Montcalm would almost undoubtedly also have had the best TABLE ( like in the movie ); not the least consideration in choosing a dining partner! ( And I'm NOT talking about the FURNITURE! ) |
| Irishgirl |
Posted - August 14 2008 : 9:07:11 PM
Yeah had noticed that James trying in vain to get it back on track. |
| James N. |
Posted - August 14 2008 : 8:13:37 PM
Sorry, Irish, but this has developed into a Military History thread!
In the British army commissions were purchased in existing regiments; the highest rank in a regiment is COLONEL. Therefore, "company grade" officers ( ensign through captain ) and "field officers" ( major, lt. col. & col. ) had to purchase their comissions. GENERALS, on the other hand, were appointed by the soveriegn, usually with the approval of various ministers. So even in the purchase system, high command was NOT assured. Unless one had "connections" politically ( Howe, Burgoyne, etc. ) or socially ( Lord Percy ); or real military talent ( Wolfe, Clinton ), high command was impossible.
Since Fitz mentions Tarleton, it is worth remembering that he earned his notoriety at the head of a unit of TORIES; with his modest background & means he NEVER could have held a similar position with British regular troops. This was Washington's eternal problem in the F&I War; his background & means severely limited him soley to command of "provencials" like the Va. troops. This festering grievance over what he rightly saw as discrimination was probably what pushed him "over the edge" when it came time to support the Revolution. |
| Irishgirl |
Posted - August 13 2008 : 7:27:43 PM
Poor John Cameron...nobody wants to stare at him across the breakfast table.
Wonder why Case of the Cooties perhaps
Poor baby |
| Fitzhugh Williams |
Posted - August 13 2008 : 7:01:12 PM
Considering the way the system worked, a surprising number of the officers did demonstrate considerable talent. Maybe the fact that they came from the upper classes accounts for their superior abilities. And the fact that they were British? When the French Revolution came along, the French started promoting based on ability (since nobility didn't get you very far at that point in time) and persons with the most potential started rising to the top.
For a good look at how the system worked read the first 100 or so pages of The Green Dragoon by Robert D. Bass (my old college English teacher). It tells how Tarleton purchases his commission in the Liverpool Regiment and went on to become a General. At one point in time he held commissions in three different units. His standing in the Liverpool Regiment (which he rarely, if ever, saw) determined whether or not he got promoted while fighting in America. It was not until he reached a certain rank with his home unit that he was eligible for promotion in the units with which he was actually serving. |
| winglo |
Posted - August 13 2008 : 6:11:41 PM
Everybody bought their commissions? That's amazing. So knowledge and ability had nothing to do with it, huh? Wow! No wonder we wanted our independence!! |
| Fitzhugh Williams |
Posted - August 13 2008 : 6:09:30 PM
Everybody bought their commissions, but not all were promoted. Probably had something to do with who you knew. |
| winglo |
Posted - August 13 2008 : 6:06:52 PM
I don't claim to have much knowledge about the British military--either current or past. But, weren't those with money able to buy themselves an officer's commission? If so, I guess we shouldn't be surprised that incompetence would exist among the officers and that it would be even be rewarded, right? |
| Fitzhugh Williams |
Posted - August 13 2008 : 5:52:43 PM
Abercrombie, like Braddock, was not as bad as he was painted. Where he really failed was to insure that his orders were followed. His subordinates acted on their own and mostly ignored his orders, then later made excuses. If anyone deserves to be blamed it is Robert Rogers. He was supposed to be providing a skirmish line for de Lancey's New York Regiment, but as soon as Stark contacted the French advanced line, Rogers went off to join him, leaving de Lancey with no protection. So thinking the Rangers were still in front of them, the New Yorkers walked right into the main French fortifications. Then hearing the firing, Haviland's brigade went in support of de Lancey as did the 42nd. And the whole battle got out of control. Had Rogers bothered to follow orders, the outcome might have been quite different. But Rogers never made a practice of doing the right thing, and Ticonderoga was no exception. |
| James N. |
Posted - August 13 2008 : 3:50:53 PM
If you look at this entire period ( including the Revolution ), the custom seems to have been to "reward" senior commanders for their "services", regardless just how execerable those may have been! The prime example of this is the HORRIBLE British General Abercrombie, called "Nabby-Crombie" by his unfortunate troops; who was responsible for slaughtering so many of them in the notorious failed assaults on Ft. Carrillion/Ticonderoga. Even during the Revolution most commanders ( like Howe & Burgoyne ) were eventually exonerated and promoted; Sir Henry Clinton being the only exception that comes to mind.
Usually this had a political basis: many ( again like Howe & Burgoyne ) were members of a not-always-so-loyal opposition party that the Monarch continued to cultivate. I'm currently reading a lot of WWII German history and find the same pattern with Hitler: those who displeased him were usually promoted, decorated, and RETIRED with honors. |
| Fitzhugh Williams |
Posted - August 12 2008 : 2:52:27 PM
quote:
Originally posted by winglo
[quote]
Obi, The Peter Principle says that people get promoted to their level of incompetence. Then they no longer get promoted and sit in a job they can't do for the rest of their career. . .you know, like all those people you've probably worked with in the past who are totally incompetent!
Yeah, but Webb kept on getting promoted way past his level of incompetency. |
| Obediah |
Posted - August 12 2008 : 2:45:36 PM
Yes, wing, I know what the "Peter Principle" is. Believe me, I'm glad that I'm retired! At the last place I worked, aka "The Evil Place," it wasn't my co-workers who were that way too much. It was the two owners of the company!  The stories I could tell...but no-one else needs to be that depressed. |
| winglo |
Posted - August 12 2008 : 2:20:57 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Wilderness Woman
But, of course! The Peter Principle worked even in 1757! 
Yep, WW.
Obi, The Peter Principle says that people get promoted to their level of incompetence. Then they no longer get promoted and sit in a job they can't do for the rest of their career. . .you know, like all those people you've probably worked with in the past who are totally incompetent! |
| Obediah |
Posted - August 12 2008 : 1:54:02 PM
It has something to do with envy, I think...
Remember, back then in the British army, officers purchased their commissions--it had nothing to do with merit. |
| Fitzhugh Williams |
Posted - August 12 2008 : 1:39:35 PM
I won't ask what that is. |
| Wilderness Woman |
Posted - August 12 2008 : 11:47:36 AM
But, of course! The Peter Principle worked even in 1757! |
| Fitzhugh Williams |
Posted - August 12 2008 : 11:35:36 AM
I think the real Webb was probably worse than the depiction in LOTM. But strangely enough he kept getting promoted. |
| James N. |
Posted - August 11 2008 : 8:28:08 PM
This was one of my observations during and since the production: only the Troupes de la Marine were represented in the film. You have just confirmed my assumption that they did NOT provide his actual Guarde d'Honneur, as we were forced to do because of the limitations of wardrobe only having the one basic impression. Props DID have the colors for other regiments d'Terre for use in the Parley scene; but all had to be carried by Marines! It stands to reason that a member of the nobility as well as a Eureopean general who just happens to command all the ground forces in the entire lands of New France *might* just have a little more formality about his person than indicated in the film!
This contrast between the usual arrogance as indicated by the character of Gen. Webb in the movie and the actual casualness of Lord George Augustis Howe later at Ft. Carillion ( Ticonderoga ) explains why he in particular was so beloved by the American colonial troops serving with him up to the point of his untimely death. Monuments were raised to his memory here; and less than 20 years later, the Revolutionaries found it difficult to believe he was the elder brother of the new Lord "Black Dick" Howe and Gen. "Sir Billy" who had come to subjagate them in the name of King George III. This type of European was truly exceptional in the experience of the colonists. |
| Fitzhugh Williams |
Posted - August 07 2008 : 09:42:19 AM
During the 250th anniversary events of the F&I War, Montcalm has been represented by Baron Georges Savarin de Marestan who is a descendant of Montcalm through Montcalm's sister, and the current owner of Montcalm's estate, Saint-Vran. He will also be present at the 250th anniversary of the Plains of Abraham next summer, and will be portraying Montcalm. As part of the event, a notification was posted for those interested in being a part of the "Garde Rapproche du Marquis de Montcalm". So naturally I raised my hand. At Louisbourg I met with those in charge and found that there will be very intensive training requiring me at times to be in Quebec starting in January. Of course this schedule meant that I could not do it, but there is some possibility that I may be involved with other aspects of these special duties.
So, the reality of the accessibility of Montcalm, and his interaction with those around him, is very different that that presented in LOTM. The almost casual atmosphere will not exist and access to Montcalm (Marestan) will be very limited. In additon to the Garde Rapproche there will be other guards whose principal duty it is to limit any access to him. It will be highly structured. I guess this shouldn't have come as a surprise to me, but in a way it did. Nevertheless, I do still hope that I can be involved, perhaps as one of the guards? We will see.
The downside of being involved at this level is that it limits my involvement with my unit. I am not sure the trade off is worth it, since I have been acting is something of a command position with their detachments (something I once swore I would never do).
PS: Please pardon the misspelling of Rapproche as the board will not allow the accent on the final "e". |
| James N. |
Posted - August 06 2008 : 8:06:04 PM
Of course I wasn't aware of the Forum back in '05, so couldn't have responded then. But to answer it NOW, my choice would definitely be M. Marquis de Montcalm. ( I didn't pick my avatar for this site by any kind of accident or just because it's "on set"! ) He's generally portrayed ( in history, NOT the movie ) as one of THE genuine heroes of the French & Indian War, right along with Wolfe, Boquet, Lord Howe, and not least someone who puts poor Hawkeye to shame: Sir William Johnson. ( All you ladies drooling over Hawkeye, Uncas, Cinch - even poor Magua - BADLY need to learn about this "real man" of the frontier! ) He's the historical figure of the period I'd REALLY like to talk to; but as he's not on the list for obvious reasons, I'll stick with Montcalm.
Of course this would have to be in an "ideal" situation, since when I had the opportunity to talk with his latter-day counterpart, Patrice Cherau, I was unable due to my very limited Francais. Assuming universality of language, I'd like to hear from him all the underhanded dirty dealings of his unwilling cohorts back in Montreal and Quebec. Also his take on the "sauvages" he was forced to work with. I always thought he got a very raw deal in the whole business of the war; I'd like to see if I'm right. |
| RedFraggle |
Posted - August 05 2008 : 1:43:43 PM
Interesting that our "Featured Poll" question is from way back in 2005. A good question, though. I voted for Magua because I'd like to know more about his background. Might make for a very interesting conversation. |
| chasis_22 |
Posted - March 20 2005 : 3:42:59 PM
I voted for Chingachgook but I would want Uncas there too. Mainly Chingachgook because he is such a wise and amazing spirit. I would love to sit down and talk with him about his childhood when there were more Mohicans around. That is also a reason why I would want Uncas there. I would want to compare their childhoods. See how the diminishing tribe altered. I hope that makes sense. |
| Graybeard Longhunter |
Posted - March 19 2005 : 1:03:43 PM
I went with Chingachgook.
Maybe he could teach me to do that forward roll that he does. 
 |
| Lurking Huron1444 |
Posted - March 19 2005 : 01:25:31 AM
While Alice is a tad on the young side, - why not? That of course assumes we spent the night together also. I think any questions etc. would have already been answered by that time. |
| Rainhair |
Posted - February 23 2005 : 6:31:40 PM
My choice would either be Chingachgook or Uncas. I think it'd be very interesting to talk to them about things, and it's not just because they're the last two of their kind.
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