| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| CT•Ranger |
Posted - December 25 2003 : 11:47:58 AM
Thought this was too funny not share. 
"You may be a fundy atheist if one or more of the following apply to you...
1. You know for a fact there's no truth.
2. You find you have a grudging respect for fundy theists for ‘sticking to their guns’ even while complaining they don’t think for themselves.
3. You dislike how liberal theists try to interpret the Bible for themselves, while you create your own interpretations of the Bible for yourself: (a) Exodus 34 contains a new set of 10 Commandments; (b) Jesus asked His disciples to slay all His enemies.
4. ‘Thinking for yourself’ means adopting an atheist viewpoint.
5. Any scholar who believes in a historical Jesus must be a theist. If they are an atheist, then they must secretly want to be a theist.
6. You demand that theists explain news items where bad things have happened to theists, even though no theists on the board have claimed that belief in God is some kind of a lucky charm that wards off bad luck.
7. You demand that theists explain news items where theists do bad things, even though no theists on the board have claimed that it is impossible for theists to do bad things.
8. You became an atheist when you were 10 years old, based on ideas of God that you learned in Sunday School. Your ideas about God haven’t changed since.
9. You think that the primary aim of an omnibenevolent God is for people to have FUN.
10. You believe that extra drippy ice-cream is a logical proof against the existence of God, because an omniscient God would know how to stop the ice-cream from being extra drippy, an omnipotent God would have the ability to stop the ice-cream from being extra drippy, and by golly, an omnibenevolent God wouldn’t want your ice-cream to be extra drippy.
11. When you say “I don’t know” you are being brave and honest. When a theist says “I don’t know” they are being dishonest and are trying to dodge the question.
12. When your thoughts on any complex matter are sensible and clear, and a theist’s thoughts on any complex matter are mental gymnastics.
13. You leave ‘freethought’ tracts lying around, like the littering missionaries.
14. You have actually calculated, for purposes of “argument by outrage”, an estimate of the number of people drowned in The Flood.
15. If someone says ‘God Bless’ when you sneeze, you make them ‘take it back!’
16. You debate (argue, vilify, etc.) as if every theist was a Jack Chick fan.
17. You can quote from the bible better than most missionaries...at least the parts where someone dies.
18. The only Commandments you know are the ones that are unconstitutional.
19. You can’t remember if she was Mother or Sister Teresa, but you can name every pedophile priest listed in the media over the last seven years.
20. You label all scholars that actually believe the Bible as “biased fundies” while those who don’t believe it are known as “honest” and “accepted scholarship.”
21. You believe that planes, computers, calculators, compasses, etc, were “all obviously designed,” yet the human body, being intricately more complex was “obviously a product of biological evolution.” It seems the more complex the apparatus, the more obvious the “fact” that it was not designed.
22. You believe that when our forefathers are framing the Constitution, they’re staunch deists, but when they’re beating their slaves, they’re Bible-believing Christians.
23. Although you’ve memorized a half a dozen proofs that He doesn’t exist, you still think you’re God’s gift to the ignorant masses.
24. As a member of the Skeptic’s Society you pride yourself on being skeptical of extraordinary claims. You also pride yourself on silencing everyone who is skeptical of the extraordinary claims of evolution.
25. Issac Newton does not count as an example of a great scientist who believed in the Bible since he died before the Origin of Species was published.
26. You believe the astronomical siz |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Light of the Moon |
Posted - February 25 2007 : 12:27:14 AM
quote:
Originally posted by securemann
Pelting Christina with pet rocks? That is pet rock abuse in the extreme! The poor rocks might get hurt.
Let's sue her if it gets chipped! |
| joseph wiggs |
Posted - January 26 2007 : 8:27:45 PM
Now this is funny!! I had to get off the floor to answer. You Sir are an original. |
| Obediah |
Posted - January 26 2007 : 01:09:29 AM
quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
You know you are an atheist when you find yourself in a foxhole, the enemy bombs are falling, and bullets are ripping into your torso and, your last thought is: "This is absolute bulls**t.
And you're NOT an atheist when, in the same circumstances, your last though is: "This is absolute bulls**t, LORD." |
| joseph wiggs |
Posted - January 25 2007 : 7:53:45 PM
Thank you my friend. Point well taken. |
| Monadnock Guide |
Posted - January 24 2007 : 8:46:13 PM
A very interesting thread, - and I think the original post was intended as humor with a point. |
| joseph wiggs |
Posted - January 24 2007 : 8:24:41 PM
You know you are an atheist when you find yourself in a foxhole, the enemy bombs are falling, and bullets are ripping into your torso and, your last thought is: "This is absolute bulls**t. |
| Obediah |
Posted - August 22 2006 : 10:32:24 PM
quote:
Originally posted by securemann
There's no atheist in a foxhole.
... which says a lot more about foxholes than about atheists (as the wise man once said). |
| Bill R |
Posted - March 28 2006 : 8:06:24 PM
Ithiliana,
Lainey is much more learned than I. However, let me take a stab at it from a simple (as in basic) man's faith.
You said, let's say Christ/God is true, so what? What difference does THAT make? Or words to that effect.
It makes ALL the difference of course. For, if God/Christ IS factual and true, then the entire bible is true, isn't it? And if it IS true, then there is a judgement. For us all.
You pointed out the horrors of the inquisition, the evil men do - even those professing to a faith, the rotten nature of the world, etc. And ask how can all that exist? Simple answer. The sin-nature of man. The existence of Satan. There is no evil a man won't commit. It's our nature. I no longer focus on anybody's sins or "alternative lifestyle" etc and judge them. Not my place. There is One who will judge us all. What I am taught is that I sin also, have many sins and transgressions of my own, and my sin-nature - as is any human's - such that I could just as well commit those sins of the next man. My sins are not less "evil" or offensive to God than another man's. Nor can that man NOT be saved and redeemed, as I have been. Even being saved and redeemed, I am still sinful. As are we all in some way. There is only one justification for our sin nature, and one redemption. The blood of the Lamb poured out for us in the new covenant. We have but to ask His forgiveness and open our heart to him. All our sins are forgiven. And the funny thing is, once you do that sincerely and from the heart, Christ begins to work within you. Change you. Make you more holy and use you to His purpose to save others. He wants us ALL to join him. It's fact.
I'm here to tell you it's fact. The changes and the workings within that Christ is willing to do if you let him. I'm one proof of such.
Not all will accept the redemption. But all are free to do so, and He want's nothing more than that all would do so.
How do "Christians" act in unChrist-like ways, you ask? They either weren't truly saved, or their sin nature drives them to.
But Lainey can probably say it all so much better and more intelligently. I'm just a simple faithful servant with a long way to go, and much to learn. |
| Bill R |
Posted - March 28 2006 : 7:50:47 PM
Lainey doesn't need MY help on this topic. Especially that last post of hers. Pretty concisely clear to ME! With Easter coming up on us, it's even more relevent to state the difference and the Truth of it. No other religion has Christ as God with us in human form and the lamb of sacrifice for the new covenant. Moreover, it is Truth. How else could 12 diverse men suffer the agonies of their deaths (all but one anyway - I believe one died of natural causes or at least not as the result of violence) with complete conviction? How else could such men devote their entire lives to the singular purpose of spreading the good news, had they not witnessed their teacher die horribly, and then rise and walk with them again? Had he not risen, he'd be just another teacher or prophet. Unless one adopts the rationale that all 12 apostles were liars rather than witnesses to fact, one can't argue against the Truth of it. Human nature proves further the Truth of it. Liars do not suffer death to protect their lies. Perhaps the odd nutball might do so, but not 12 men gathered from dissimilar backgrounds all agreed to die for a lie or an agenda without the obvious Truth to it. Gather 12 anybodies together, spend three years teaching them any agenda other than this Truth, by however a charismatic man you might find, and then threaten to put them to death if they don't recant. Anybody believe such a group of 12 would all choose death for a lie? Or is it more likely all 12 would recant?
Choose as you will. Nobody comes to the Truth but that God leads them to it. That's one side. The other side is all can come to the Truth and be convicted by it. Took me forty years, but God has his own timeline.
Well said, as usual, Lainey. Sorry if I pitched my ha'penny into the discussion.
|
| Ithiliana |
Posted - April 12 2004 : 10:03:54 PM
er... im not sure i see how ressurection makes christ valid... i hope youll be able to explain that to me more fully :)
and by lack of tolerance, i mean "ooo, lets go around forcefully converting people to our religion or killing them if they refuse, because we're right and they're wrong and what we believe is the absolute truth and there can be no other."
actually, i have a nice quote, although im not sure how much respect you have for its source :)
its from Jesus Christ, Superstar, the rock opera...
quote:
What is truth? Is truth unchanging law?
We both have truths,
Are mine the same as yours?
yea... i know christianity is not the only religion to have done this, but it is perhaps one of the most prominent. it has no respect for the fact that other people may have their own beliefs. it is this mentality of 'what i believe is right and what you believe is wrong' which i find so disturbing. the hugenots (i cant spell) in france, the protestants and catholics taking turns killing each other off in england, the witch trials... all kinda remind me of what hitler did... so he killed all the jews... yea, he's one of the best-known examples... cuz he killed more people, cuz he had more people to kill and better technology to kill em with. but its not like the idea was original. how is that ANY DIFFERENT from what the church did at various points in history? the inquisition, alone, killed plenty of innocents (evil, twisted, devil worshipping heathens! *coughcough*)
so truth cannot compromise itself to error? what truth? ok, suppose Jesus/God does exist. what does that have to do with ANYTHING AT ALL? are people infallible? is their interpretaion of scripture... infallible? the pope is infallible... suuuure... except one pope tried to poison one of his cardinals for no good reason other than that he didn't like him. basically, the cardinals get together, elect a pope, and pretty much assume that god is now with him, because they, those 'infallible' cardinals, just went and elected him. and dont say that they were guided by god. he gave them the freedom of choice, did he not? they make their own descisions. so basically, no one here on earth that teaches all this dogma is really infallible. so how do you know its right? maybe christ meant something totally different, and is now sitting up in heaven wringing his hands in agony as he gazes upon the fine handiwork his children have wrought, after twisting his words to fit their puny minds and motives. just speculating, of course :) |
| Lainey |
Posted - April 12 2004 : 4:30:01 PM
quote:
if there is a god, then why can't people agree on him? and what makes one belief more valid than another?
Hi Ithiliana,
I haven't time to answer your questions or discuss these points to any degree of justification right now, but, a one word answer to the bottom line question; 'What makes one religion more valid?' is this -
Resurrection.
Had Christ suffered & died for us & nothing more; had there been no resurrection, there would be no difference one from another except claims. The Resurrection of Christ makes ALL the difference between claims & truth. God died. God resurrected. No other religion makes such a claim because no other religion is God's full & salvific eternal love for all He has created. He died. He rose. There is no other truth. Is this what you mean by lack of tolerance? Truth can not compromise herself to error.
I'll add more when possible. |
| Ithiliana |
Posted - April 11 2004 : 8:17:50 PM
ok... having beaten the whole science vs. theology issue to death, let's turn somewhere else... :)
so far, we have been focused mostly on Christianity. Over the centuries since its beginning, every religion, Christianity included, has instinctively erected a wall that catches most criticism and scrutiny: if you talk to a priest, at least a good one, of any religion, they will have an answer or argument to every question you ask and every statement you make. every religion is impregnable... if it isn't, it doesn't survive. but now we have a funny situation: we have several major religions, and countless minor ones, all of which are completely bulletproof in their beliefs and explanations and dogmas. so who is right? Christ is not the first god to exist... the Egyptians had their own gods, and so did the romans and greeks, and the slavs had their idols, and the celts their druids and their gods and their mother goddess. now supposing Christ is the true god, and everyone who came before him was a fake, then where did they come from? if they didn't really exist, the only other explanation is that they were made up, right? now... why were they made up? because humankind pays a price for its ability to think: we need someone to believe in, someone who we can always rely on, who will always be there, who we can talk to no matter where we are, no matter when, someone to ask for things when there is no other way to get them, someone to reward you for things no one else is going to reward you for, someone to punish those people at the top of the heirarchy who get away with everything and are not going to be punished in this life, some way to explain the change of seasons, the rising of the sun, the failed hunt and flood and earthquake and epidemic... but perhaps most importantly of all, to reject the horrifying idea that when we die, we die, and we vanish forever, and are no more. so from the perspective of a christian, everyone before christ was made up. (and everyone afterwards, too...) but if mankind made all these gods up, why couldn't they have made this one up, too? why are zeus and hera and appollo and athena fake, but christ real? sure, they searched olympus and found nothing... but we have flown through the heavens and beyond, and where is christ? and if he dwells not in the heavens, but in Heaven, a place apart, isnt possible that the same metaphor be applied to mt. olympus? mayhap it was just another symbol of the 'above'?
another thing: christianity is splintered into many shards... yet these are all people who believe in the same god! they claim to be staunch believers, they are all for brotherhood, yet they oppose each other over the littlest things: wether or not icons should be allowed, whether the service should be in roman, etc... do they not believe in the same god? what do these things matter before god, if you are a good person? if he speaks all tongues, why does it matter if you pray in roman or vernacular? if he is everywhere, why does it matter if you worship at church or at home? who cares if you celebrate christmas the 25th or the 7th? (of january) and yet people have taken turns persecuting each other over these little things, in the name of that same god they all worship. but that's people, and we're talking about god... so... people have taken christianity and stretched it so far that if we take two opposing radical groups (i cant come up with any names... hmm.... correct me if im awfully wrong, but howabout catholics and anabaptists? [im not sure they still exist, but they did at one point...])the leap between the two... is it so much greater than that between one of them and... muslims, for example? they also believe in one god... yea, they have a different name for him... but god is god, and is it truly the place of a human to pin a name on him? as i recall, they even admit the existence of jesus christ... as a prophet. but they also have that same doctrine of basic goodness, do they not? yea, the detai |
| Lainey |
Posted - April 03 2004 : 03:39:22 AM
Well, really I have to say 'thank you' for these opportunities to think about & discuss things important to me. It helps me tremendously ...
Ithiliana, see you back here then! |
| Ithiliana |
Posted - April 02 2004 : 11:10:04 PM
yea, happy easter everyone! (although its a bit early)
lainey, thanks for your explanation... it makes purgatory very clear...
id love to write a long response, but unfortunately its 11pm and i gotta get up at 5 tomorrow morning cuz we're driving down to florida. ill definetly post when i get back.
enjoy your spring break! (for those of you who have one, anyway) |
| Kaylynn44 |
Posted - April 02 2004 : 11:54:26 AM
Oh Come On Kay! Your at least up there near me, maybe a Ford Maverick or an AMC Gremlin???
Ha ha ha  That is why I love you so much. You will tell a little white lie just to make me feel better. Although........ I'm not for sure if the Gremlin was meant as a compliment. 
Love,
kay |
| Gadget Girl |
Posted - April 02 2004 : 11:50:10 AM
Oh Come On Kay! Your at least up there near me, maybe a Ford Maverick or an AMC Gremlin??? 
GG  |
| Kaylynn44 |
Posted - April 02 2004 : 11:41:13 AM
Lainey,
It is always great to read one of your posts. You are always very helpful and enlightening!!!
GG, don't you dare say that you are only a Pinto compared to Lainey being a racing car, because I don't want to think what that makes me. A moped maybe. 
Kay |
| Gadget Girl |
Posted - April 02 2004 : 09:39:19 AM
I think Elaine must live in a much more Oxygen-rich environment than I do!!! No matter how much I think and contemplate, that gray organ in my noggin is just not capable of functioning as clearly as hers does  ...or maybe I should get up at 2 AM and think . If my brain were a car, I think it must be a Ford Pinto!...putt, putt putting along, never quits, but just can't keep up either! Elaine's would be like...oh...maybe one of those Formula whatever racing cars!!!
I agree with Elaine Ithi, you have some great questions and really think around an issue. These kind of discussions help all of us explore a subject!
GG |
| Theresa |
Posted - April 02 2004 : 07:15:14 AM
Thank you so much, Lainey. That clears it up a lot for me. I've never really thought much about purgatory but what you said makes perfect sense.
Geez...I'm always learning something here. Have a wonderful Easter season. |
| Lainey |
Posted - April 02 2004 : 02:18:11 AM
Kay said;
"I like the idea of purgatory to tell you the truth."
So does God! :) |
| Lainey |
Posted - April 02 2004 : 02:05:26 AM
I feel like a tardy schoolgirl late for class ... again. Sorry.
Ithiliana, you have a very, very good mind. Overwhelmed ... overwhelmed ... I know. I feel overwhelmed by God everyday. I'm glad to see you continueing the discussion. Excuse the delays in replying ...
quote:
Ithi,
You raise an interesting point about purgatory. Not being Roman Catholic, I'm not as educated on this as you might think...so I looked it up. Purgatory is a state, according to Roman Catholic belief, in which persons who die in the friendship of God but without having fully made amends for their failings must atone for them by suffering before being admitted into Heaven.
Is that how you see it? Lainey want to weigh in on this one?
Just trying to educate myself further.
Theresa, what a good & timely point. This is the Lenten Season - the most sacred of Christian days; a time of atonement which has so much to do with this question of purgatory. Thanks for bringing it out for a better look.
You've pretty much got it. Purgatory is a state [rather than a place] where a redeemed soul is purged of all that is imperfect or impure [the consequences of sin] prior to entering into the eternal life of God. We often speak of going before God, or of being in God's presence in our afterlife but that's really not quite accurate. It's the way we think - we use and need images such as a throned, bearded God or a pitchfork weilding red devil to comprehend what is essentially spirit. Our minds have trouble 'picturing' things not physical. In reality, heaven is not a place where one 'goes to' in eternal bliss, but a perfection one enters into as a soul is united to God. In other words, we return to our first source of being - God - not before or outside of God, but united into Him.
Since God is by His own essence pure and perfect, infinite and omnipotent, simple and one, immovable and immutable; how does an impure and imperfect soul come into God? It can not because this would change God's own nature, His ipsum esse [Being Itself - thank you, St. Thomas Aquinas] which is unchangeable. An imperfect soul united in God's perfect being would change that which can not change. It would corrupt that which is incorruptible. An impossible thing. If a soul remained impure and imperfect [forgiveness does not erase the 'mark' or imprint of sin] it could not have eternal existence with God. So what divine option does this leave? Either there is a means of purification after death [in life, too, which also has to do with suffering] or there is no possibility of entering into God. We know the second option not to be true since man is eternal, he is flesh but essentially spirit, he is created for eternity, and he has been redeemed at the cost of divine blood. [I know that's jumping ahead, Ithiliana, but it's still part of the equation.]
God is merciful, just, & He is love. So, rather than abandon man to his imperfect nature & consequential exile God provides this purification, purging, purgatory. Assume a man has sought and received absolute forgiveness for his sins. At the moment of death does he still bear the impurities of a soul who has sinned, even though forgiven? He does, for sure. From death to passing into Heaven, or into God, there is a lapse of time or being - an interim state that can not be measured in time but can be measured by state. For instance, if we assume the man's soul is to be with God, the most accurate thing we can say is that there is a change, a transfer or transport which we call death. If that man's soul was to be with God even in an instantaneous flash, it is still at best an instant. The death of the body, the "departure" of the soul, & the entry into heaven is not simultaneous. There is a moment, a p |
| Kaylynn44 |
Posted - April 01 2004 : 11:25:47 PM
er... basically, the way i see it is purgatory is where people go that neither deserve heaven nor hell. since i dont believe in god, i dont deserve heaven (or so i would assume) but ive never really done anything terrible, and so far i tend to believe that my good outweighs my bad. so god cant very well send me off to hell (or rather he can, but he wont if he's fair. after all, isn't it a bit vain of god if he were to send ppl to hell just for not believing in him?) so by process of elimination, purgatory is the only place for me to go. but lainey, you're the expert on this kind of thing, so if you can explain to me/us exactly what it is and how you get there, that would be cool.
Ithi,
You are right. Lainey is the expert on these things, but I just had to say one thing. I always thought that purgatory was was where you went to be cleansed before going to heaven. You will eventually go to heaven when you are clean and pure enough. I may be wrong on this, but that is what I always thought purgatory was. So, if you don't believe in God, then I don't think that you can go to purgatory. In fact, if you don't believe in God, then isn't that considered rejecting God, and doesn't anyone who rejects God go to hell? Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that you're going to hell. I'm just saying that is what I have always heard. Acually, I have only heard about pergatory from friends. I was raised to believe that there is only heaven and hell, and you go to one or the other. I like the idea of purgatory to tell you the truth. Just don't tell my parents that I said that!!!
Kay
|
| Ithiliana |
Posted - April 01 2004 : 9:53:44 PM
er... basically, the way i see it is purgatory is where people go that neither deserve heaven nor hell. since i dont believe in god, i dont deserve heaven (or so i would assume) but ive never really done anything terrible, and so far i tend to believe that my good outweighs my bad. so god cant very well send me off to hell (or rather he can, but he wont if he's fair. after all, isn't it a bit vain of god if he were to send ppl to hell just for not believing in him?) so by process of elimination, purgatory is the only place for me to go. but lainey, you're the expert on this kind of thing, so if you can explain to me/us exactly what it is and how you get there, that would be cool. |
| Theresa |
Posted - March 31 2004 : 07:14:10 AM
Ithi,
You raise an interesting point about purgatory. Not being Roman Catholic, I'm not as educated on this as you might think...so I looked it up. Purgatory is a state, according to Roman Catholic belief, in which persons who die in the friendship of God but without having fully made amends for their failings must atone for them by suffering before being admitted into Heaven.
Is that how you see it? Lainey want to weigh in on this one?
Just trying to educate myself further. |
| Ithiliana |
Posted - March 30 2004 : 10:15:37 PM
ooooh, wow! i'm overwhelmed.
lainey, i get the feeling you've had occasion to argue this before...
your points are excellent, very well thought through and make a lot of sense.
quote:
The philosophers of all ages have looked around them - in the physical world, in the heavens, in the seasons, in humanity - & what they observed was incredible, awesome, beautiful, perfect order, and what they concluded was that there must be a divine power that "breathed" life into existence.
it has been said that 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder'. There is no one single, absolute standard of beauty or perfection. we see beauty around us, bacause it is what we grew up with and so have come to consider it as such. if we were born and lived in an arid desert, than we would find beauty in that, too. (as im sure the arabs do.)and whats to say that the balance of nature (which i assume is what you mean by 'perfect order') wasn't brought about by the fact that everything out of balance with nature became extinct. (as humans probably will soon.)
quote:
Isn't that strange - that we should so commonly use such an oxymoronic phrase? Nature can not have created itself. Forget about philosophy or theology; science disproves such a hypothesis. When you say this you are forgetting the first source of being [which you've already agreed on]. Nature, or the 'stuff on the planet' is chemical/physical matter. A rock. A tree. A river. All 3 contain the natural elements yet only one is living. What is the difference that makes the chemically composed tree alive & the chemically composed rock & water not alive? Nowhere in the natural world do we see pure creative energy at work. We see procreation & regeneration, but never self-creation. All life works of nature have physical/chemical matter that pre-exists the new life.
The universe; yes, it is rational to say 'I don't know how it came to be' - & it is rational to notice that it CAME TO BE & did not always exist. Again, science confirms this. What you are doing is wondering just so far & no further. Science can not answer this question of how it came to be either; science can only discover how it continued to be. Regarding God; well, no ... you can not say the same thing [He was created & did He create Himself?] One of the proofs of God is the infinite mystery of His having ALWAYS been. Reason - your own reason - tells you God could not have created Himself [nothing can do that] & yet there must have been a First Existence. The First Existence [God] always was - He did not come to be, He always was. Anything & everything else of creation came of this First Existence. The universe could not be the First Cause itself as it has all the secondary qualities [matter, spatial confinements, birth, death, time, natural law, etc.] of existence & leaves the question of First Source of Being unanswered. This is the mystery of God - we can reason His being before all other being - that He never came to be but always was - He is not physical in essence, but pure spirit - and our finite minds can not possibly comprehend the infinite eternity of God. [Russian Orthodoxy teaches this same thing; He always was.]
rocks and water do not contain the three nessesary chemicals for organic material (ie. H O and C. of course, even if one were to lump all these three together one would not get a living thing. it must be taken into account that life developed over millions of years.
and if god could have always existed, what prevents the universe from doing so? why do these particualar secondary qualities disqualify it?
and you speak of god's mystery |
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