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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Lainey |
Posted - February 12 2003 : 03:40:40 AM
War is sometimes justifiable from a moral standpoint, i.e. a necessary evil. War is more often desirable from a Machiavellian standpoint, i.e. a pragmatic evil. Sometimes war is nothing but evil, i.e. war for war's sake. It is difficult at times to discern between the three, but always it is an evil & always it is a failure of humanity. The current world crises present sobering challenges to make these discernments & reflect upon the merits, justification, necessity, wisdom, practicality, morality, & probable outcome of global warfare. No one can hide from the terror of the 21st century.
Some people find the 'War On Terror' to be a clearly justifiable campaign against a broad, though readily identifiable coalition of enemies. From A to Z, or Afghanistan to Zimbabwe, it is black & white. September 11 = Al Qaeda + Afghanistan + Taliban + Iraq + Syria + Iran + Yemen ++++++ ... Others do see an enemy coalition of nations but not in such a broad sweep across the middle east & central Asia. Still others find the enemy far more narrowly confined to a network of fundamentalist Islamicists hell bent on a jihad designed to bring about Muslim unity & Muslim domination.
Total opposition to war is neither good nor bad in itself. There are times when barbaric oppression demands action or defense against cruelty, & there are times when a response of war & its violence exceeds the wrongs it goes against & ignores avenues of peaceful resolution. Peace for peace sake is an error that often carries a high price. Non-violence for true peace is a more fruitful position.
Whatever the cause, war means someone is dancing with the devil.
Iraq ... is this as clear cut as the US, England, & other UN members say it is? Is there a damnable Al Qaeda link? Does Iraq really possess the WMDs alleged? If so, do these weapons warrant a war & does Iraq truly pose a clear, imminent threat to any other country? Many think so & believe the free world's future depends upon the annihilation of Saddam Hussein & his Republican Guard, or more politely put, regime change. Presented as a destabilizing force in the middle east, the conventional wisdom is removal of Hussein will bring about greater stability in the region & serve the interests of all. However, there is growing doubt & gnawing questions in the minds of everyday citizens. Despite the eloquent presentations of 'evidence,' something doesn't seem quite right. There are many who unquestionably support the war on terror, affirm the justification for toppling the Taliban, want Al Qaeda in all its forms eradicated, believe government's primary duty is protection of its citizens, & are rightly uneasy about increasing threats against democratic peoples. But ... they are not convinced or willing to bless the war against Iraq.
The State Department claims there is irrefutable evidence that Hussein's regime is closely connected to Al Qaeda & does possess WMDs. From anthrax to ricin, dirty bombs to nukes; we've heard satellite photos, intelligience, communication intercepts, & confessions all prove these allegations. But some still question the veracity of the 'evidence.' After all, the first Gulf War was pitched with satellite photos of Iraqi troops amassed along Saudi borders & horror tales of Iraqis tossing premature babies on cold hospital floors to die. Turned out to be false, but it was effective campaigning. Today we hear the newly released 'Bin Laden' tape "proves" an Iraqi-Al Qaeda connection because Bin Laden calls upon the Iraqi people to resist & seek martyrdom. Nonsense.
Yes, those who recognize the grave threat from terrorist organizations do support military action in the defense of innocents, but it does not follow that an Iraqi war is automatically relevant to this crisis or at all justifiable. There are serious questions about the case against Iraq, valid concerns about the inevitable destruction of villages, cities, & people, & unsettling fear over the gravity of the conse |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| securemann |
Posted - April 22 2003 : 07:24:54 AM
No oil down there.I guess none. |
| Scott Bubar |
Posted - April 22 2003 : 05:58:31 AM
How much strategic value would you say Uganda has? |
| securemann |
Posted - April 20 2003 : 6:37:34 PM
Oh, and they could help the terrorists with weapons to get us. |
| securemann |
Posted - April 20 2003 : 6:35:12 PM
Scott,the same reason we used for Iraq. People being brutalized,harboring terrorists especially Bin-Ladens boy's and a threat to the surrounding region.I'm just using this as an example of our inconsistent policy.We act when it's beneficial for us.If we were consistent,we would be fighting all over the place and I think the American people wouldn't like that one bit. |
| Scott Bubar |
Posted - April 20 2003 : 5:14:24 PM
Jim, it doesn't really seem like much has changed there since the sixties. Do you have a particular reason for wanting to go to war in Uganda? |
| securemann |
Posted - April 20 2003 : 2:17:32 PM
Has anybody been following the conditions in Uganda? Apparently they make Saddam's Iraq look like Disneyland.Brutal human behavior and terrorist ties all over the place.Even Bin-Laden cells are down there.Children are being slaughtered left and right.No mention by Bush and government about this.Maybe they don't have enough of the 10W30 or 40 stuff down there to make it worth while.Let's be consistent now.One butcher is as good as another.Correct me if I'm wrong. |
| Scott Bubar |
Posted - April 05 2003 : 09:01:42 AM
Securemann's post put me in mind of another mention of flag display, or refraining from same.
This is the address of Lieutenant Colonel Tim Collins of the Royal Irish Regiment to the 1st Brigade on the eve of battle:
quote:
It is my foremost intention to bring every single one of you out alive, but there may be people among us who will not see the end of this campaign. We will put them in their sleeping bags and send them back. There will be no time for sorrow.
The enemy should be in no doubt that we are his nemesis and that we are bringing about his rightful destruction. There are many regional commanders who have stains on their souls, and they are stoking the fires of hell for Saddam. He and his forces will be destroyed by this coalition for what they have done. As they die they will know their deeds have brought them to this place. Show them no pity.
We go to liberate, not to conquer. We will not fly our flags in their country. We are entering Iraq to free a people, and the only flag that will be flown in that ancient land is their own. Show respect for them.
There are some who are alive at this moment who will not be alive shortly. Those who do not wish to go on that journey, we will not send. As for the others, I expect you to rock their world. Wipe them out if that is what they choose.
But if you are ferocious in battle, remember to be magnanimous in victory. It is a big step to take another human life. It is not to be done lightly. I know of men who have taken life needlessly in other conflicts. They live with the mark of Cain upon them.
If someone surrenders to you, then remember they have that right in international law, and ensure that one day they go home to their family. The ones who wish to fight? Well, we aim to please.
If you harm the regiment or its history by over-enthusiasm in killing or in cowardice, know it is your family who will suffer. You will be shunned unless your conduct is of the highest--for your deeds will follow you down through history. We will bring shame on neither our uniform nor our nation. [Collins warns his troops that Saddam may attack them with chemical weapons.]
It is not a question of if; it's a question of when. We know that he has already devolved the decision to commanders, and that means he has already taken the decision himself. If we survive the first strike we will survive the attack.
Iraq is steeped in history. It is the site of the Garden of Eden, of the Great Flood and the birthplace of Abraham. Tread lightly there. You will see things that no man could pay to see, and you will have to go a long way to find a more decent, generous and upright people than the Iraqis. You will be embarrassed by their hospitality, even though they have nothing.
Don't treat them as refugees, for they are in their own country. Their children in years to come will know that the light of liberation in their lives was brought by you.
If there are casualties of war, then remember that when they woke up and got dressed in the morning they did not plan to die this day. Allow them dignity in death. Bury them properly and mark their graves.
As for ourselves, let's bring everyone home and leave Iraq a better place for us having been there. Our business is now in the north.
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| securemann |
Posted - April 03 2003 : 11:51:09 PM
Just watched a pro-coalition rally in Kuwait on T.V. They were waving Kuwaiti flags (understandable) but when some folks tried to show the American and British flags,they were immediately stopped and told not to display the flags.Just another example of those ingrates and I cringe everytime American blood is shed over there.Dying for freedom? Oh,I get it, they like us but just can't show it.Hey,die for us,but we just can't show our appreciation.Take your oil Kuwait and shove it! Where are the Kuwaiti soldiers in all this? |
| securemann |
Posted - March 31 2003 : 1:16:23 PM
I was just reading today about Powells warning to Iran and Syria.He told Iran they better stop developing WMD (sound familiar) and also told them to leave Israel alone.He warned Syria about their involvement with Iraq and they said it was their duty to repel the invader at all costs (they refered that statement to us).Anyway,we need to be consistent about evil empires,etc. Does anyone agree with invading Iran? Syria? They employ the same ideals as Saddam.When does it stop before WWIII kicks in? Do we go back to the U.N. and start some dialogue? Oh,I forgot about North Korea and Russia.Don't trust the Russians.Just a little food for thought.LET'S NOT START OUR OWN WAR HERE. |
| securemann |
Posted - March 27 2003 : 10:04:58 PM
I can remember a time when U.S. troops were sent to a country that had a rag tag army that fought dirty by using civilians,kids and old people.We were sent there to "save" a people from an evil regime.It would be "quick" because we had superior fire power and they were so backwards.Our leaders promised us that we would be out of there in no time and have the people freed from a butcher.It didn't seem to work out. I pray this doesn't happen again. Oh,by the way,the place was Vietnam. |
| Lainey |
Posted - March 24 2003 : 11:48:17 AM
Thank you, Vita. Much appreciated.
However ....
quote:
Our pen war can only bring good, because indeed The PEN IS MIGHTIER THAN THE SWORD.
But not here. I need to close the years long chapter of my Mohican Press endeavours. The site's work, for me, is there, done, & hopefully, will continue to provide enjoyment & information for a long time coming. A quiet, peaceful, anonymous life has greater appeal, & spring, Sophia & her siblings, a garden, canning, etc. seems a much better course.
A peaceful, good life to all! |
| ladylight |
Posted - March 24 2003 : 11:16:57 AM
Queenie,
I do love you, you are a fabulous lady, talnted writer, good editor when time permits, and a lovely girl. I keep responding to your posts because you are knowledgeable, more than the average, and I care very much about your opinion.
Our pen war can only bring good, because indeed The PEN IS MIGHTIER THAN THE SWORD.
Kiss Sophia for me, and dance in love, light, and laughter, always.
|
| Lainey |
Posted - March 24 2003 : 10:51:49 AM
Vita,
Thank you for posting that letter. I should say this; when I say the US, the Turks, the Israelis, the Brits, etcetera, I am referring to the governments/leadership & not necessarily the people. When I say the Turks sought to "milk" the US' request for bases, I an referring to the Turkish government. Regarding the desire to expand Turkey's borders, ditto. I know, as evidenced by the intense protests in Ankara that the population was not on board with the US plans to move south from Turkish soil or to invade Iraq. Continued protests show they, too, like all the world, stand horrified by what is happening.
This thing has turned very bad, very quickly. I, for one, am not surprised. Huge sand storms in Iraq are expected to kick up tomorrow.
American POWs, including the FIRST female American POW, are seen in their captivity, fearful, to say the least. Surprise attacks, fierce resistance, casualties & fatalities unexpected so quickly, far too many friendly fire accidents, downed Apache, MIAs, horrible grenade attack by a fellow American soldier, dead & wounded civilians, etcetera ...... very bad omens.
There were interesting developments within Iraq's Christian community on Friday. Incredible, actually, but I'll keep that one for my own edification, along with keeping my own counsel.
As for your fence; you're not sitting on it, but have both feet placed on either side. That's a good perspective.
More letters from Ankara, please?
{Will update you on the homefront later. Had a great day with Sophia yesterday, though! She was so excited to see her brothers & sisters & didn't find the cake's icing too shabby, either!)
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| ladylight |
Posted - March 24 2003 : 09:53:36 AM
Queenie,
I had to return to this post, and underline one point I made originally:
Indeed, the Turkish Public said Take Your Billions and Shove it.
Yes, the Government had to go with the majority's demand, and no I emphatically disagree with that they were "milking" it, but for now, I want to show you one of the e-mails I received from a Turkish friend in Istanbul. He and his wife are middle-class, articulate, fleunt in English, intellectuals, idealists, both are writers, are going through tough times, and here is their sentiment about the war:
>>>>>".... we feel exhausted because of the neverending
negative economic circumstances. I hope these troubled
times soon will be over in a couple of weeks.
Individual problems of course hurt a bit, but not as
much as the global problems which the "other people"
face nowadays. I just can't worry for my personal
troubles while this dirty war, this holocaust is going
on, Karina. We are spending sleepless, sad nights
here, dominated by anxiety, as we watch people
dying with each falling bomb over there, just a few
thousand miles southeast of our land. This is a really
tough nightmare. The only hope I keep is the faith
that good, honest, sensible Americans out there will
soon break their silence and stand up to stop this
Bush The Butcher and his "oil-greed" company.
I hope you and Michael are both fine and healthy. Take
care of yourselves, my dear friend. I'll write again
soon.
Love and warmest regards,
B." <<<<<<<<<
These are MY Turks, my warm-hearted, honest, decent friends. Those very friends who wept along with their fellow Americans on 9/11.
And, if those missiles that fell upon Turkish soil, were not a mistake but a warning as you point out, then... well, those live by the missile .....
Yes, Pax, Inshallah!
|
| ladylight |
Posted - March 24 2003 : 09:01:44 AM
Queenie,
CAPITULATE, did you say? Moi?
NEVER!
Correct? No, because as usual, you are very knowledgeable. However, remember this: I SIT ON THE FENCE, NOT ON THE OTHER SIDE OF IT, so my view extends to both sides of the fence. Therefore, when I send The Horseman out into the world, within a week or so, and really this is the umpteenth day i am besieged with this migraine and many other things, I will, instead of rambling, present views from the other side of the fence as well as from the fence itself.
I have to go through it quote by quote, the way you do, and am just too fragmented right now.
But knowing me, you know this is not a cop-out, just the way things are with me presently.
Now that I gave you my news, what about you? Is Rose Tales going to see daylight soon? Or is it gathering dust? I know you've been through a great deal, and as usual, your energy is astounding, but how about .... using some of it for....
Well, I take my prerogative as an Auntie, m'dear, and say:
Ah, 'nough said, you know what I am talking about!
Love Light and Laughter to you and yours |
| Lainey |
Posted - March 24 2003 : 12:46:24 AM
Dear Auntie,
Would never call for your head! Please dump that migraine & give your passionate counter punch.
Regarding Turkey;
quote:
Since this particular post, first off, Turkey has said to America: "Take Your Billions and Shove it."
90 percent of the Turks were and are still against this war, and this despite its severe consequences to Turkey.
The aid package was to help pay for some of the terrible economic damages left from the first Gulf War, when Turkey had given its wholehearted cooperation to the US. But also, naturally, it was to help with the new damages which have already began to incur, due to the new action in the area.
Meanwhile, while you said this: (that's YOUR tax dollars, America!), US went and either gave or promised, I am not sure which one is hte case, right now, 10 billion to Israel and an extra 2,5 billion to Egypt, of war-related aid money, notwithmentioning which other nation or group is receiving or has received, the said (that's YOUR tax dollars, America!), which the Turks allegedly demanded, which in truth, they have turned down....
I think Turkey surprised herself by this rejection & its parliament scrambled to sort it out, not entirely comfortable with the financial/political consequences (loss of US funds & slim chance to gain entry into EU). The 'take it & shove it' stance was a vast improvement over the 'up the ante' demand. At the time, Vita, Turkey had every intention of cooperation & figured to milk it for all its potential. Yes, a bit of it was a try to recoup $$$ still not delivered, though promised last go round, but it was mainly a stab at maximizing the price of a coveted good - strategic land. What's wrong with this sort of "coalition" building is that it has little to do with alliances or shared objectives & lots to do with global buyouts. Gone are the days of principled allies & ideological foes. We have the checkbook (yes, your tax dollars, America!) that rewards or punishes, accordingly. 90% of the population is opposed to this not despite the severe consequences, as this war will surely benefit Turkey, providing the opportunity to seize Kurdish lands. In a way, Vita, one might think Turkey played this one with shrewd finesse. The biggest consequence to fear (for Turks) would be the regional reprisals had they allowed US troops to move from Turkish lands. Having refused the US request, Turkey is in a position to say to its enraged neighbors, 'We rejected western dollars, opposed western military desires, & laid not a finger upon the Iraqi Arabs,' while STILL making its long coveted incursion into northern Iraq. Pretty neat bluff.
I'm not shy about decrying US military payoffs to Israel, Egypt, or any other place (yes, that's YOUR tax dollars, America!). I'm not singling out Turkey, just underscoring the dirty dealing we (and others) do to have our way & how it always becomes a pandora's box. Yes, the Turks snubbed the purchase & still seek an extended border. Turkey isn't just looking to aid its Turkoman brothers, it intends to halt an independent Kurdistan, & batter the Kurdish fighters who might inspire an energetic Kurdish uprising within Turkey's borders. Incidentally, the US "mistakenly" fired two cruise missiles into Turkey today. Yesterday, Iran. Come on. What do you think, Vita? Mistake or message?
Do the Turks have a claim to Kurdistan? No. Turkomans' millenial presence within a portion of Kurdistan does not equal a greater Turkey any more than Iran's Kurdish population would equal a greater Iran in northern Iraq, or a greater Iraq in northeastern Iran. Kurds & Turks both have their grievances but the Kurds have been caught in the crossfire a long, long time & still have no Kurdish homeland.
ladylight |
Posted - March 23 2003 : 1:37:24 PM
Queenie! Gasp! I just saw this post!
Of course I am shocked and hurt, but because you are so brilliant a person that I have to reply, tell you how I feel and why.
You wrote:
>>>>>Well, that didn't take very long. Turkey is already engaging in extortion ... balking at the Six Billion aid package promised by the US (that's YOUR tax dollars, America!) & a guarantee of 30 Billion worth of loans to be backed by the US (that's YOUR tax dollars, America!), Turkey demands THIRTY BILLION dollars cash, rights to Northern Iraqi OIL FIELDS (land of the Kurds), & a MILITARY presence in Iraq!!!!! See?!!!
Already cutting up Iraq ... and this demand from the Turks, of all people. The same people who've slaughtered Kurds before, the same people who massacred 1 & 1/2 million Armenians & got away with it. The people of the Ottoman Empire that once moved to take Europe. Adolph Hitler cited the Armenian genocide as proof that Germany could do as it pleased regarding genocide - so long as it became a dominant world power because no one would care or remember its atrocities.
Yep ... sounds like Iraqi liberation to me.
[/quote]
Queenie!!!!!
My God, I really want to delve into this, but also, really truly my migraine is so awful right now, Elaine, I can't quite see the screen...
But you and I are so similar in character, SO YOU KNOW I HAVE TO TRY, even if you decree: Off with the Ye Olde Town Cryer's Head...
Since this particular post, first off, Turkey has said to America: "Take Your Billions and Shove it."
90 percent of the Turks were and are still against this war, and this despite its severe consequences to Turkey.
The aid package was to help pay for some of the terrible economic damages left from the first Gulf War, when Turkey had given its wholehearted cooperation to the US. But also, naturally, it was to help with the new damages which have already began to incur, due to the new action in the area.
Meanwhile, while you said this: (that's YOUR tax dollars, America!), US went and either gave or promised, I am not sure which one is hte case, right now, 10 billion to Israel and an extra 2,5 billion to Egypt, of war-related aid money, notwithmentioning which other nation or group is receiving or has received, the said (that's YOUR tax dollars, America!), which the Turks allegedly demanded, which in truth, they have turned down....
Re. Turks' wanting to enter Iraq. Elaine, you, from your last post, are knowdledgeable re. the Turkomans in Iraq, also YOU ARE knowledgeable of how many, 2,5 million, and of their Via Dolorosa existence. Here, I confess: I HAVE ALWAYS ADVOCATED THAT TURKEY COME TO THE AID OF THEIR BRETHREN.
Re. Kurdish/Turkish, to put it very very mildly, disagreements.
I stand by everything I wrote in The Horseman. Both are fabulous people. Terrible used by Mass-Manipulators. For every atrocity, every murder the Kurdish side can press forward against the Turks, the Turkish side can respond by showing its own martyrs.
And yet the tragedy is that these two groups have co-existed, as closely as nail to the finger, for a thousand, and in some areas, for more than a thousand, years. Blood-wise, they are so mixed that it's hard to tell where one leaves and the other begins. The Turkish Army, the Turkish Parliament, the Turkish Business Movers and Shakers, are equally filled with Kurds.
Re. the subject of Armenians. I am not quite sure why this is entering the discussion right now, and by the way, thought the quote re, Hitler has been widely circulated, there is no real proof he's said that, and ifh e did, well, he would say anything and everything that would suite his cause, regardless of its merit.
OK< I am going to take double dose of Aspirin now.
And then I have to check to mirror and see if my head is still upon my shoulders...
Regardless of whether I agree with you or not, love 'ya, Queenie, keep on hurling your thunderbolts, for that's what America is All About |
| Theresa |
Posted - March 21 2003 : 4:32:19 PM
According to the IMDB:
At the annual luncheon for Oscar nominees and presenters Monday, reporters peppered nominees with questions about whether they intend to speak out about the looming war with Iraq during their acceptance speeches. TV Guide Online quoted Daniel Day-Lewis, nominated for his role in Gangs of New York , as remarking, "It's interesting because you all ask these questions, but at the moment, quite obviously, the media is sick and tired of people in my position giving their opinions about [the war]. And yet, you're kind of encouraging me to give my opinion about it... And after giving my opinion, you're going to say, 'Why doesn't he shut up?'"
|
| Lainey |
Posted - March 21 2003 : 3:55:17 PM
quote:
I have several thoughts on the war now underway in Iraq. I grieve for all the casualties, and am saddened that the list of American/Allied service-members (killed, wounded, and their families) who have sacrificed for their nation and for liberty now grows longer.
I found Dilip Hiro's book Iraq very informative.
Clearly the greatest effects of the war will fall on the Iraqi people. In addition I feel dread that the world, particularly the US (and to a lesser extent Britain) will bear heavy costs from attacking Iraq.
Lainey spoke of potential Turkish involvement in the Iraqi/Kurd situation. There are now reports of Turkish troops entering the Kurdish zone of northern Iraq.
I will be sending in my resignation from the Republican Party to protest the attack on Iraq (for months I have been letting them know I would do that--not that I expected them to listen).
Darkwoods,
Despite attempts to marginalize the ever growing opposition to America's invasion of Iraq, and its plans to invade several more nations, the outrage expressed worldwide has only just begun. In America the anti-war movement has interesting demographics. There's the usual suspects - Hollywood's Left Barbara Streisand being the queen of hissing. (But entertainers of interest to this board who fiercely oppose this war include Daniel Day-Lewis & Martin Scorcese; the collaborators' GONY getting ripped as typical anti-Americanism)- Partisan Mercenaries who object merely because they think they should (with all the hands down arguments against this charade *French word alert!* you'd think they'd actually cite some instead of exposing their silliness) - False opposition Op-Eds Writing pieces obstensibly to question the war, they reinforce & repeat lies (you know the drill ... say a thing often enough & it becomes fact) so frequently that one reaches the end not quite certain what they should be objecting to.
But the anti-war movement also has majority numbers of everyday Americans who really don't have political agendas to pursue or badges of acceptance to earn;
Moms & Dads, Students, Grandparents, 9-11 Families, War Veterans (including Gulf I}, Religious, Republicans, Conservatives, Democrats, Liberals, Independents, Libertarians, Doctors, Nurses, Teachers, Librarians, Conscientious Objectors, Attorneys, and so forth. We're going to question their patriotism?
What they have in common, other than their American citizenship, is a need to protest or object in some way. An urge to voice their sadness or anger or sense of betrayal. Just as you've resigned from the Republican party. Just as three American Diplomats have resigned from this administration expressly over this government's 'Pre-Emptive Strike/Perpetual War Doctrine' stating they could not associate themselves with it & serve their country simultaneously.
There is a growing rift within the Republican Party & the splintering will increase. (No offense, but the Democratic Party is pretty much irrelevant.) There are LOTS of principled republicans who reject the hijacking of the party by the Neo-Conservatives ... or neocons, & they're evolving into new political entities to oppose what they see as a clear & present danger, a threat to America's interests. Be patient ... all's not lost.
Yes, the brunt of this war's effects will be upon the Iraqi people who apparently have not, by this administrations POV, suffered enough yet. (Strange thing ... to starve & kill a people off for 12 years & then claim to liberate them through massive bombardment.) Will we suffer consequences? No doubt. WWIII has begun (once again, World War by invasion) & we're probably looking at decades of warfare, assuming the high-fiving Armegeddonites & Likudniks don't bring down the house first |
| Dark Woods |
Posted - March 21 2003 : 12:42:46 AM
I have several thoughts on the war now underway in Iraq. I grieve for all the casualties, and am saddened that the list of American/Allied service-members (killed, wounded, and their families) who have sacrificed for their nation and for liberty now grows longer.
I found Dilip Hiro's book Iraq very informative.
Clearly the greatest effects of the war will fall on the Iraqi people. In addition I feel dread that the world, particularly the US (and to a lesser extent Britain) will bear heavy costs from attacking Iraq.
Lainey spoke of potential Turkish involvement in the Iraqi/Kurd situation. There are now reports of Turkish troops entering the Kurdish zone of northern Iraq.
I will be sending in my resignation from the Republican Party to protest the attack on Iraq (for months I have been letting them know I would do that--not that I expected them to listen). |
| Lainey |
Posted - March 12 2003 : 9:49:52 PM
quote:
Sounds like the Federici infrastructure is fragmenting down there.If this does not improve,we will be setting a deadline in order to restore stability to the area.Rich,you must account for all the liters of thorazine and haldol which can be used to mess people up.If these demands are not met,be prepared to be liberated by the invading Wingdale forces (whoever the heck they are)Aw,come on guys,politics is fun,right?
 It's the damned sanctions, I tell you! I complied for eight long years ... no French Toast, no Belgium Waffles, no Perrier, no Merlot. Not even good bread! And for what? The Wingdale Wingshow Forces overhead? Remove the sanctions or liberate at your own peril, Commander Mann. {Bring pax ... and wine.} 
Now back to our regularly scheduled program ...
quote:
Hussein isn't a renegade Muslim. He's not religious at all. He's very secular, in fact, though he does go through the motions of prayer at the mosque when advantageous. He's a thug, an assassin, a mass murderer, a paranoid Stalin imitator/emulator. He terrorizes the Iraqi people & the Kurds, {True} as well as his Arab & Persian neighbors. There's no question he has chemical/biological weapons of mass destruction & will use them given the opportunity. He's already been tied to an assassination plan against Pres. Bush Senior, & he's in violation of agreements made when ceasing the Persian Gulf War. Therefore, a US or UN attack against Iraq is not a pre-emptive strike. {Uhmm ... not true.}
A good example of presuming things to be true & the need to retract. There IS question regarding weapons. There ARE questions regarding an alleged assassination plot. There WAS compliance for 8 years, at which time Iraq questioned the wisdom of continued compliance if devastating sanctions remained in place. Given the inexcusable rate of Iraqi deaths resulting from sanctions, and the impossibility of recovering economically, total compliance without sanction relief makes no sense. Given the fact that Iraq had one of the world's lowest infant mortality rates prior to the '91 invasion & now has one of the highest, it'd be criminal for Iraq's leaders to fail to demand the lifting of sanctions. Given the horrific increase of cancer rates, mostly among children, & the devastating birth defects, the likes of which have never before been seen in Iraq, a consequence of plutonium laden munitions dumped on Iraq by the western nations, it'd be immoral for Iraq's leaders to acquiesce without protest.
40% of Iraq's population is under 15. Over 50% is under 20. Clean water is rare, disease is rampant. Pretty shameful. |
| securemann |
Posted - March 12 2003 : 7:57:40 PM
Sounds like the Federici infrastructure is fragmenting down there.If this does not improve,we will be setting a deadline in order to restore stability to the area.Rich,you must account for all the liters of thorazine and haldol which can be used to mess people up.If these demands are not met,be prepared to be liberated by the invading Wingdale forces (whoever the heck they are)Aw,come on guys,politics is fun,right? |
| Lainey |
Posted - March 12 2003 : 5:49:28 PM
Christina,
It's hard to explain, express, & discuss because what is true is vehemently denied. Denied & resisted so fiercely that you will be called crazy for raising it, speaking it, & opposing it. You will offend & your fidelity to country will be questioned.
Some further questions to ask; in light of yesterday's collapsed talks between Turkish Cypriots & Greek Cypriots over northern Cyprus it is clear that Turkey's bid to gain entry into the EU has faded. What should be noted in this situation is that Turkey invaded Cyprus in 1974 & remains, to this day, an occupying force. The invasion, occupation, & human rights abuses have rightly brought a multitude of UN resolutions that remain ignored. For 29 years Turkey has been in "material breach" & yet, instead of illegal, inhumane sanctions directed against the Turkish population, they have received $$$$$$, military hardware, & NATO accolades. Their abuse of Kurds, including illegal seizure & staged trials of Kurdish leaders, has brought UN resolutions of condemnation. Since the Kurds are today's shirt-lived victims of choice, why are we in the US not punishing, condemning, & threatening Turkey? This Cyprus impasse will soon explode so we'll need to remember this 'sidebar' to the Iraqi situation when it happens.
Regarding the Kurds again; claiming ourselves to be defenders against atrocities against Iraqi Kurds & posturing as though we've every intention of protecting them, why are we 1) dealing & negotiating with Turkey over military entry into Kurdistan & 2) not defending Kurds in no-fly zone, Hussein free, Northern Iraq against AL-QAEDA members who've already attacked them? I THOUGHT it was Al-Qaeda listed as enemy numero uno & yet we aim our wrath against Baghdad? Kurds, incidentally, are not Arabs.
Why have Americans who have engaged in subverting American brokered peace agreements between Israel & Occupied Palestine been increasingly empowered while people who question the legitimacy & truthfulness of this Iraqi "crisis" are cast aside?; In 1996, a committee of eight prominent Americans, including three Bush 'advisors' (most notably Richard Perle, a man whose name comes up time & time again) advised then Likud PM victor Benjamin Netanyahu to ABANDON the 1993 Oslo Accord & ignore completely the underlying principle of land for peace. The committee's report urged Netanyahu, who never lacked any war initiative anyway, to demand Arab-Semite concession to Israel its recognized right to the biblical lands of Israel (borders STILL not defined or disclosed) & to work towards the removal of Iraq's president, Saddam Hussein. Sharon, last year, dictated which countries the US must attack. After Iraq - you guessed it! Iran. Can't wait to hear the subtle weaving, bit by bit, of why we need to bomb Tehran once Baghdad is occupied. Oh, wasn't that MOAB test on 3-11 really meant for the world's eyes, not Baghdad's? Sort of a new Hiroshima warning of power.
Why are we ignoring the Palestinian tragedy?; Until the US recognizes that the issue STILL is Palestine its claims, accusations, & sound bites on liberty, human rights, invadors, terrorism, democracy, etc., will have no credibility. There's plenty of opposition in Israel, by Israelis, of Israeli aggression. There's incredible coverage & documentation of the systematic destruction of Palestine's infrastructures & its people. Israeli news is FAR more objective than is US media. A good start would be The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories -
http://www.btselem.org/
We can't, as a people, continue to ignore these hypocrisies & turn deaf ears to the suffering groans of those whose lives are treated with despicable, barbaric indifference. We don't, it is true, need to understand hatred or violence against America; moral relativism is an empty theory. But we had better at least know why.
{On a personal note; as is probably clear, Rich & I are in total disa |
| Christina |
Posted - March 10 2003 : 5:18:53 PM
Lainey --
I don't post very often but I'm a frequent reader and have been doing a lot of thinking and agonizing over this war issue, and I just wanted to say thank you. Your writings are some of the most coherent I've read on the issue. I'm in agreement and can only hope my arguments when discussing this war issue with friends and coworkers will be as well thought out...
pax to all
Christina |
| Lainey |
Posted - March 10 2003 : 5:06:20 PM
From conservative columnist William Raspberry.
********
William Raspberry
Not So Fast
Monday, February 24, 2003; Page A21
This is hard. So soon after very nearly swooning over Colin Powell's report to the United Nations Security Council, I find myself thinking the once unthinkable: I don't believe him.
It's not that I think the secretary of state -- the one member of the president's inner circle I thought we could count on to be straight with us on Iraq -- is lying. But I'm starting to think that his interpretation of facts and circumstances assumes so many things and ignores so many others that it comes to the same thing.
Whence my change of heart? For one thing, I've had time to digest that tour de force performance of earlier this month. For another, I've been listening and reading (particularly Dilip Hiro's book "Iraq: In the Eye of the Storm"). And finally, I've found it impossible to see how Powell's allegations and speculation -- even if they are all true -- lead so ineluctably to war.
The argument is that Saddam Hussein has defied the United Nations; therefore the United States must punish him. And not just with sanctions or diplomatic pressure but with war -- even though there is no evidence he is doing anything to us.
Sen. Robert Byrd (D-W.Va.), in a recent speech that has received too little attention, put it this way:
"This is no simple attempt to defang a villain. No. This coming battle, if it materializes, represents a turning point in U.S. foreign policy and possibly a turning point in the recent history of the world. This nation is about to embark upon the first test of a revolutionary doctrine applied in an extraordinary way at an unfortunate time. The doctrine of preemption -- the idea that the United States or any other nation can legitimately attack a nation that is not imminently threatening but may be threatening in the future -- is a radical new twist on the traditional idea of self-defense."
The senator's concern is that we are about to set a precedent that will come back to haunt us. I share that concern, and this one: Who, with Powell having abandoned his effort to steer America on a saner course, will say to the president that this is dangerous stuff we're rushing into?
One gets the sense that the president is convinced he has to do this war before someone talks him out of it. The chief weapons inspector tells us he's found nothing and wants more time. The administration, certain the inspectors won't find anything, thinks we're wasting time. Just find "material breach" and let's roll!
Why so fast? Because Hussein will stall, the same way he's been stalling for a dozen years. A dozen years, by the way, during which he has attacked no one, gassed no one, launched terror attacks on no one. Tell me it's because of American pressure that he has stayed his hand, and I say great! Isn't that better than a U.S.-launched war guaranteed to engender massive slaughter and spread terrorism?
Maybe all Hussein wants is a chance to gas or sicken or nuke somebody. But isn't there a chance that he wants things that, to his mind, are worth trading for some of the things the civilized world wants? What? Allow this madman to blackmail us?
We don't describe it as blackmail when the North Koreans imply their willingness to trade a few atomic bombs for desperately needed economic assistance.
We don't call it blackmail when our pals the Turks, learning how much our war plans hinge on using bases in their country, tell us that the price of their cooperation has doubled -- pay up or find yourself another launching pad.
I accept the possibility that Hussein isn't interested in negotiations -- that he's eating very well and couldn't care less that his people are starving or that he's motivated by some combination of hatred and jealousy of the democratic West.
For this we should make unilateral, unprovoked war?
But, says the administration, we've moved all these ships and carr |
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