![The Mohican Board! [Bumppo's Redux!]](images/wwwboard.gif "The Mohican Board! [Bumppo's Redux!]") |
|
| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Lainey
TGAT
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 18 2002
Status: offline
Administrator |
 Posted - February 12 2003 : 03:40:40 AM
|
War is sometimes justifiable from a moral standpoint, i.e. a necessary evil. War is more often desirable from a Machiavellian standpoint, i.e. a pragmatic evil. Sometimes war is nothing but evil, i.e. war for war's sake. It is difficult at times to discern between the three, but always it is an evil & always it is a failure of humanity. The current world crises present sobering challenges to make these discernments & reflect upon the merits, justification, necessity, wisdom, practicality, morality, & probable outcome of global warfare. No one can hide from the terror of the 21st century.
Some people find the 'War On Terror' to be a clearly justifiable campaign against a broad, though readily identifiable coalition of enemies. From A to Z, or Afghanistan to Zimbabwe, it is black & white. September 11 = Al Qaeda + Afghanistan + Taliban + Iraq + Syria + Iran + Yemen ++++++ ... Others do see an enemy coalition of nations but not in such a broad sweep across the middle east & central Asia. Still others find the enemy far more narrowly confined to a network of fundamentalist Islamicists hell bent on a jihad designed to bring about Muslim unity & Muslim domination.
Total opposition to war is neither good nor bad in itself. There are times when barbaric oppression demands action or defense against cruelty, & there are times when a response of war & its violence exceeds the wrongs it goes against & ignores avenues of peaceful resolution. Peace for peace sake is an error that often carries a high price. Non-violence for true peace is a more fruitful position.
Whatever the cause, war means someone is dancing with the devil.
Iraq ... is this as clear cut as the US, England, & other UN members say it is? Is there a damnable Al Qaeda link? Does Iraq really possess the WMDs alleged? If so, do these weapons warrant a war & does Iraq truly pose a clear, imminent threat to any other country? Many think so & believe the free world's future depends upon the annihilation of Saddam Hussein & his Republican Guard, or more politely put, regime change. Presented as a destabilizing force in the middle east, the conventional wisdom is removal of Hussein will bring about greater stability in the region & serve the interests of all. However, there is growing doubt & gnawing questions in the minds of everyday citizens. Despite the eloquent presentations of 'evidence,' something doesn't seem quite right. There are many who unquestionably support the war on terror, affirm the justification for toppling the Taliban, want Al Qaeda in all its forms eradicated, believe government's primary duty is protection of its citizens, & are rightly uneasy about increasing threats against democratic peoples. But ... they are not convinced or willing to bless the war against Iraq.
The State Department claims there is irrefutable evidence that Hussein's regime is closely connected to Al Qaeda & does possess WMDs. From anthrax to ricin, dirty bombs to nukes; we've heard satellite photos, intelligience, communication intercepts, & confessions all prove these allegations. But some still question the veracity of the 'evidence.' After all, the first Gulf War was pitched with satellite photos of Iraqi troops amassed along Saudi borders & horror tales of Iraqis tossing premature babies on cold hospital floors to die. Turned out to be false, but it was effective campaigning. Today we hear the newly released 'Bin Laden' tape "proves" an Iraqi-Al Qaeda connection because Bin Laden calls upon the Iraqi people to resist & seek martyrdom. Nonsense.
Yes, those who recognize the grave threat from terrorist organizations do support military action in the defense of innocents, but it does not follow that an Iraqi war is automatically relevant to this crisis or at all justifiable. There are serious questions about the case against Iraq, valid concerns about the inevitable destruction of villages, cities, & people, & unsettling fear over the gravity of the conse
|
"Fides et Ratio" |
|
report to moderator
|
|
|
securemann
Deerslayer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 08 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - February 12 2003 : 12:41:35 PM
|
| As I stated in other posts,I wonder if our troops are still made to "give up" all religious items especially the ones with a Christian meaning.This will only compound the problem especially in the eyes of God.Good post Lainey, God help us all. |
report to moderator  |
|
|
Lainey
TGAT
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 18 2002
Status: offline
Administrator |
Posted - February 12 2003 : 3:52:55 PM
|
Bush isn't clueless, Anthony. We all are given facts, speculations, advice, etc. & must draw our own reasoned conclusions & form opinions based upon what we know, what we fear, & what we hope to achieve. We don't always hold a consensus on what is or should be. As President of the US, Bush has exhaustive quantities of data at his disposal & hears broad ranging opinions regarding what should be done. He sees the situation differently than I do but he still sees. Personally, I think he is an honest, focused, determined head of state who whittles things down to a condensed 'right & wrong' -'good & evil' worldview. This isn't necessarily wrong & it may have been exactly what was needed in the September 11 aftermath. A Don Quixote figure, if you will, ruthlessly caricatured by those who paint every situation as a windmill & fail to see the man's sense of mission.
I sense Bush truly would like to see an Iraqi war averted (I hope this is true). It's other voices I worry about. |
"Fides et Ratio" |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Lainey
TGAT
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 18 2002
Status: offline
Administrator |
Posted - February 12 2003 : 4:06:25 PM
|
quote:
Baghdad-bound, Cardinal Etchegaray Is Counting on Prayer
Papal Envoy Arrives in Mideast for a Tough Mission
ROME, FEB. 10, 2003 (Zenit.org).- John Paul II's peace envoy to Saddam Hussein arrived in Jordan today, en route to Baghdad, aware that his mission is "at the outermost limit of hope."
Cardinal Roger Etchegaray, president emeritus of the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace, explained his mission with these words in an interview published by the Italian newspaper La Repubblica.
The Basque-French cardinal is to give the Iraqi leader a letter signed by the Pope, reminding him of his duty to contribute to effective international cooperation, based on justice and international law.
"The Holy Father's objective is to support all efforts being made everywhere to safeguard the much needed peace," the cardinal said.
"The war would be a catastrophe under all aspects," he said. "Above all, it would have grave consequences for the Iraqi people and, in addition, would make increasingly difficult the efforts of the U.N. in favor of the unity of the human family."
Moreover, the problems in relations between the West and the Muslim world would become worse, the cardinal speculated.
The papal emissary's plane landed this morning in Amman, Jordan. The 80-year-old cardinal was to enter Iraq on Tuesday.
The cardinal is no stranger to these lands. In December 1985 and January 1986 he visited prisoner-of-war camps in Iran and Iraq. In 1998, he went to Ur of the Chaldeans, Abraham's homeland, to plan a papal pilgrimage. In the end, the Iraqi regime did not allow it.
Cardinal Etchegaray said it would not be easy to convince Saddam Hussein.
"I know that I am called the envoy of impossible missions," he said. "But do you know what I need? A prayer to accompany me on the way."
quote:
Papal Envoy Arrives in Baghdad; Iraqi Says Pope Would Be Welcome
Cardinal Etchegaray Carrying a Letter for Saddam
BAGHDAD, Iraq, FEB. 11, 2003 (Zenit.org).- Cardinal Roger Etchegaray, John Paul II's special emissary, arrived in Baghdad with a message he says is "crucial for peace."
An Iraqi official, meanwhile, said the Pope is welcome to visit the country.
"I land as John Paul II's messenger," Cardinal Etchegaray told reporters when he arrived this afternoon in a U.N. plane from Jordan.
"I am the bearer of a message for President Saddam Hussein, and this is crucial for peace in Iraq," the papal envoy said.
He plans to meet with several Iraqi leaders, celebrate Mass on Wednesday in St. Joseph's Chaldean Church and "pray for peace."
The content of the papal letter has not been made public. But Vatican spokesman Joaquín Navarro-Valls on Sunday said that its intention is to inspire "a serious reflection on the duty of effective international cooperation, based on justice and international law, for the purpose of ensuring to those peoples the supreme good of peace."
Cardinal Etchegaray might return to Rome with Iraqi Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz, who will be received in audience by the Pope this Friday.
Spokesmen for the Franciscan monastery in Assisi, Italy, said that Aziz will visit the monastery on Saturday and pray at the tomb of St. Francis.
Meanwhile, Amir Alambari, Iraqi ambassador to the Vatican, told the press that the doors of his country are open to John Paul II, who does not need an official invitation to visit the country.
On the eve of the Jubilee of the Year 2000, John Paul II wished to make a pilgrimage to Ur of the Chaldeans in Iraq, birthplace of Abraham, but the Iraqi regime did not favor that visit.
"His visit would be a blessing not only for our people, but for |
"Fides et Ratio" |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Lainey
TGAT
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 18 2002
Status: offline
Administrator |
Posted - February 13 2003 : 11:30:02 AM
|
Papal Emissary Hopes to Meet with Saddam
Cardinal Etchegaray Makes Contacts with Government
BAGHDAD, Iraq, FEB. 12, 2003 (Zenit.org).- Cardinal Roger Etchegaray, John Paul II's special envoy to Iraq, confirmed that he will meet with Saddam Hussein to hand him a letter from the Pope.
Following a meeting with Iraqi Vice President Taha Yasin Ramadan, and with Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz, the cardinal said today that contacts with the government are contributing to prove "the importance implied in a climate of confidence among us."
The cardinal was mandated by the Pope to remind Iraqi authorities about their grave responsibility to avoid the war and to comply with their international duties, a Vatican note explained last Sunday.
Before meeting with Iraqi officials, Cardinal Etchegaray told the press: "I have come for a spiritual mission of peace. We all want peace."
The cardinal celebrated Mass and prayed for peace in the Chaldean Church of St. Joseph in Baghdad.
In statements to Vatican Radio, Auxiliary Bishop Shlemon Warduni of the Patriarchate of Babylon of the Chaldeans said that for Iraq's 500,000 Catholics (most of them of the Chaldean rite) the cardinal's visit is a sign of hope.
"It is a grace and a hope for all the Christians of Iraq because, as we all know, the Pope loves Iraq very much," he said.
"He doesn't miss an opportunity to talk about Iraq and peace because, as he said the other day, war doesn't achieve anything, while peace is the foundation of the good of humanity," the Chaldean prelate said.
"The Iraqi people are certainly living through a very difficult situation," he added. "We pray that the Lord will send peace and that war will not come. What can we do? We abandon ourselves in the hands of the Lord and of all who act with good will." |
"Fides et Ratio" |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Lainey
TGAT
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 18 2002
Status: offline
Administrator |
Posted - February 15 2003 : 01:43:41 AM
|
"As I stated in other posts,I wonder if our troops are still made to "give up" all religious items especially the ones with a Christian meaning.This will only compound the problem especially in the eyes of God.Good post Lainey, God help us all."
Thanks, Jim ...
The answer to your question regarding apostate troops is ... yes.
No "offensive" crucifixes permitted. Sounds like a great beginning for a war of "liberation," don't you think?
|
"Fides et Ratio" |
| report to moderator |
|
|
securemann
Deerslayer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 08 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - February 15 2003 : 3:25:03 PM
|
| I wonder if Bush knows about the no crucifix policy of our soldiers.This alone is enough to get them out of there.I be damned (literally) if I fight on Arab soil and forced to remove my Cruifix.Not only are our troops asked to die for oil but also forced to commit apostasy.This is outrageous and should be brought to the attention of the American people immediately. |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Lainey
TGAT
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 18 2002
Status: offline
Administrator |
Posted - February 20 2003 : 11:35:10 AM
|
quote:
Turkey, situated north of Iraq, will be trouble. Oddly a darling of NATO, Turkey has its sights on northern Iraq which forms part of the Kurdish homeland of which Turkey has already gobbled up its portion. The Kurds have been persecuted by the Iraqis & persecuted by the Turks. What deal is being struck over Kurdish lands (and lives) in exchange for use of military bases? (The Turks also had a hand in Afghanistan warlord power & their barbaric treatment of Afghan people. How hard the slap to Afghanistan's people that Turkey held a "peacekeeping" mission these past months in Afghanistan.} Not that the State Department cares, but "secular, democratic" Turkey currently has two Christians incarcerated who were given death sentences. The crime? Allegedly trying to proselytize to a Muslim.
Well, that didn't take very long. Turkey is already engaging in extortion ... balking at the Six Billion aid package promised by the US (that's YOUR tax dollars, America!) & a guarantee of 30 Billion worth of loans to be backed by the US (that's YOUR tax dollars, America!), Turkey demands THIRTY BILLION dollars cash, rights to Northern Iraqi OIL FIELDS (land of the Kurds), & a MILITARY presence in Iraq!!!!! See?!!!
Already cutting up Iraq ... and this demand from the Turks, of all people. The same people who've slaughtered Kurds before, the same people who massacred 1 & 1/2 million Armenians & got away with it. The people of the Ottoman Empire that once moved to take Europe. Adolph Hitler cited the Armenian genocide as proof that Germany could do as it pleased regarding genocide - so long as it became a dominant world power because no one would care or remember its atrocities.
Yep ... sounds like Iraqi liberation to me. |
"Fides et Ratio" |
| report to moderator |
|
|
securemann
Deerslayer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 08 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - February 20 2003 : 7:10:50 PM
|
| Yes Lainey yes! Keep the infro coming! The situation over there is getting smellier day by day. |
| report to moderator |
|
|
securemann
Deerslayer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 08 2002
Status: offline
|
|
|
Lainey
TGAT
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 18 2002
Status: offline
Administrator |
Posted - February 21 2003 : 02:32:48 AM
|
It sure is getting ugly, Jim. Things are not necessarily the way our press presents it, either. There seems, for instance, to be a concerted effort in western media powers to paint the middle east (excepting Israel) & central Asia with one swooping brush ... Arab, Muslim, fanatical, terrorists, evil, etc. And never do I read about the semi-democratization of any nation. Lebanon has for decades governed by a dual system reflective of its Muslim and Christian population. 40% of the Lebanese people are Christian (Maranites) & are represented by a Christian president. The 60% Muslim majority is represented by a Muslim Prime Minister. Not necessarily the sort of democratic republic we live under, but why should it have to be a replica to be "valid"? There's a large Christian minority in the middle east & N Africa that's simply ignored by the western media & western powers. Egyptian Copts. Iraqi Chaldeans & Orthodox Assyrians? Palestinian Christians. Sudanese Christians. Syrian, Jordanian, Iranian Christians. Ancient Christian lands ... Libya is another example. We all *know* about Gadhafi but do we know ANYTHING at all about Libya? Or Iraq? Don't Christians, Jim, have an obligation to speak on behalf of all who are marginalized & specifically on behalf of their Christian brethren? And to question the wisdom & justice of a war that will ravage the Cradle of Civilization & just might set off a worldwide backlash?
Al Qaeda, remember? September 11, remember? Not every perceived or potential foe.
quote:
Libyan Catholics' View of Country Differs Greatly from the West's
Nation Is Open to Dialogue with Religions, Says Bishop of Tripoli
ROME, FEB. 20, 2003 (Zenit.org).- The view that Libyan Catholics have of their country is very different from that presented at times in the Western press.
"A superficial reading of Libya would describe this country as fanatic, extremist and tyrannical, but in reality it is a country with an age-old vocation to dialogue," says Bishop Giovanni Martinelli of Tripoli. The bishop is responsible for Libya's Catholics, most of whom are immigrants.
Bishop Martinelli explained that "the president of Libya, Moammar Gadhafi, is presented only in his anti-Western and pan-Arabic facet, but deep down Libya stands for a reformed Islam, open to dialogue with other religions."
"Libya is a bridge between Africa and the Mediterranean, and it has always been a place of coexistence among different races, cultures and religions," the bishop said Tuesday when addressing a meeting organized by the Pontifical Institute of Arabic and Islamic Studies of Rome.
"Islam's proposal in Libya is fidelity to religion, but open to dialogue," he said. "In this context, there is no room for fundamentalism."
The majority of Catholics in the country are from Sudan, Poland, the Philippines, Italy and other areas, especially African.
The great problem of both pastors and faithful is the lack of missionaries and lay people who speak Arabic. Bishop Martinelli took the opportunity to appeal to Catholics, particularly religious congregations, to send missionaries who speak Arabic.
Libya, a country of Bedouin tradition, has had a Christian presence since A.D. 70. In 189 a Libyan became Pope and took the name Victor I. His pontificate lasted about a decade.
Officially, there are 50,000 Catholics in Libya. Bishop Martinelli reckons there are 100,000 baptized individuals in all.
|
"Fides et Ratio" |
| report to moderator |
|
|
richfed
Sachem
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 13 2002
Status: offline
Administrator |
Posted - February 22 2003 : 07:42:33 AM
|
I'm sorry, Lainey, but I miss your point here ...
Anyway, this pic was passed along - you may have seen it - I kinda fancy it, myself!
 |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Theresa
Bumppo's Tavern Proprietress
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - February 22 2003 : 08:58:53 AM
|
Rich,
I wonder if Iraq had doppler radar!? I do believe there is a great storm brewing.
|
Theresa |
| report to moderator |
|
|
securemann
Deerslayer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 08 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - February 22 2003 : 3:16:50 PM
|
| I correspond with a Catholic Chaplain over in the Persian Gulf and he told me when they were ready to disembark from the plane,thay were told to "put away" anything that pertained to Christianity.That meant crosses,bibles,and any other jewelry.This was three years ago.Read Revelation Chapter 3: verse 15-16 for an answer to this.I'm not trying to be some holy roller here or condemn folks but if you follow Jesus,he wants 100% not 25%. Now if I was a soldier on this plane and saw this priest and all the other soldiers "put away Christ" for the moment,I guess I would be in some brig in the desert.I am an American and would fight for this great country anytime,but when the ultimate decision of faith comes,sorry,I cannot commit apostasy.Jesus said it wouldn't be easy.You cannot deny him one moment and then "produce" him on the base where it would be easy to acknowledge him.Jesus loves us 100% and expects the same from us when that "test" of faith comes no matter WHAT the outcome or where it occurs. |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Lainey
TGAT
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 18 2002
Status: offline
Administrator |
Posted - February 23 2003 : 03:42:58 AM
|
Vengeance is blinding, emotion dulls the intellect, & anger obscures facts. To carry out a massive war campaign against a country that has not been linked to 9/11, has not been proven to have WMDs, nor is shown to be an imminent threat to anyone outside its own borders - all in the name of 9/11 - requires the inflation of one man's power, & demonizing myopic image of an entire people. Even an entire world region. Repetitive grunts like, 'They're ALL fanatics,' 'They're ALL terrorists,' & 'Blow them ALL up!' are meant to reinforce a desire for blood without justice. THEY means Middle Easterners. Middle Easterners means Muslims. Muslims means Arabs. Arabs means terrorists. That's the complex thought process in action, and please don't confuse me with the facts!
There's a bit of dead Indian-good Indian, nits breed lice bias here. To sell this war an image must be sold. Isn't that why we were treated to the same 10 second film footage of celebrating Palestinians, played over & over again anytime Palestinians were even mentioned on news broadcasts? That the footage was taken at a Palestinian refugee camp & involved a very small crowd didn't matter. This is what we saw as a representation of ALL Palestinians. And it worked. In little time, Americans were condemning Palestinians as terrorists & turning a blind eye to Sharon's terrorism OF Palestinians. Yes, there are individual Palestinians engaging in terrorism but we haven't had a shortage of that coverage so no need to debate it.
Americans are being conditioned to believe the vast majority of middle eastern countries are justified targets because they are all bastions of total evil Islamic Jihad warriors out to get America. That all middle easterners are not terrorists or terrorist supporters, & are not even all Muslims puts a kink in the game plan. The Christian communities can't be warriors for Jihad so we simply pretend there are no Christian communities. That non-Jihad Christians will be attacked is a reality we choose to ignore by pretending they simply don't exist. That Christians & Christian Churches are being assaulted & defiled by Sharon's thugs is skirted by ignoring their Christian identity. The "enemy" nations simply can't be all that they can be (in our view) if they have large Christian populations. We NEED them to be Jihad cultures to numb our slaughter. So we simply sacrifice the Christians to our military objectives. How virtuous.
My point is underscored by the above graphic. The powerful, predatory eagle isn't shown raging toward a terrorist camp or enemy army. It's shown descending upon a simple Bedouin camel herder & wife or child. They're middle easterners, Arabs, Muslims, or something ... & they're dead. Justice.
What we did/do in Afghanistan was necessary. That was a right response to declared war. We should have been in the Phillipines long ago where KNOWN Al Qaeda affiliates were aggressively waging terrorism & had already kidnapped & killed American citizens. We should have been in Saudi Arabia, where KNOWN Al Qaeda cells were operating & training. Not Iraq. No Al Qaeda there - sorry.
I want our country & people defended. I want Al Qaeda destroyed. It is MY brother who almost died at the World Trade Center. It is MY children at risk from terrorism. It is MY infant daughter who lives too far from me to protect in a crisis. Fight the enemy, not the pest.
Who most seeks a weakened Iraq? Who wishes to be the uncontested military power in the middle east? Who wants Iraqi lands & Iraqi oil fields?
~~~~~~~
Turkey has slipped 7000 troops into northern Iraq now. Right into Kurdish lands. Iran has 5000 troops suddenly within Iraq. Aren't they invading? Aren't they aggressors? Shouldn't we now smite them with our righteous missiles? The very same Kurds we call up now as a trump card for pretended human rights will soon be offered up for Turkish slaughter. |
"Fides et Ratio" |
| report to moderator |
|
|
richfed
Sachem
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 13 2002
Status: offline
Administrator |
Posted - February 23 2003 : 06:59:55 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lainey
What we did/do in Afghanistan was necessary. That was a right response to declared war. We should have been in the Philippines long ago where KNOWN Al Qaeda affiliates were aggressively waging terrorism & had already kidnapped & killed American citizens. We should have been in Saudi Arabia, where KNOWN Al Qaeda cells were operating & training. Not Iraq. No Al Qaeda there - sorry.
 That's where we begin to part ways on this ... Bush, Rice, Cheney, Rumsfelt, Powell, et al believe otherwise. I believe they know of what they speak.
Senator Edwards [D-NC], a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, told our own son that the amount of material they have on Iraq is voluminous ... that they've released a mere morsel.
It's just common sense, to me, that Iraq is the perfect breeding & nesting grounds for Al Qaeda & their ilk ... the weapons they have so blatantly failed to declare & account for cannot be allowed to fall into the "wrong" hands.
War is awful ... yes. No argument. Innocents will die. But, again, if that is true, then I can only say that I would rather it be their innocents than ours. Sounds harsh, I know. We saw the results of the other way around all too closely a mere year and a half ago. We are not instigating this. This is not our doing. But to fight this war, I feel we must be aggressive - for this is no "normal" enemy. They play by no rules! While there may be Christians spread throughout the Middle East, it is also true that as nations, there is great hatred toward us - more than just hatred - a desire, a prevalent desire, to kill us. Worse, there are many who will act upon this and governments that will allow it. That, for me, is enough for war - and not just with Iraq.
This problem doesn't just "go away."
Anyway, before this turns into war of the worst kind - DOMESTIC!!!  - I'm outta here! The only reason I posted in this forum, on this subject, at all was to counter a post or two that I felt misrepresented America's position. I wanted it clear that is not Mohican Press' sole opinion!
Anyway, back to the 1700's for me ... it's a lot safer there! 
As Bill O'Reilly would say, I'll give you the last word!
|
| report to moderator |
|
|
Lainey
TGAT
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 18 2002
Status: offline
Administrator |
Posted - February 24 2003 : 03:15:12 AM
|
Saddam Hussein, leader of the Ba`ath Iraqi Socialist Party since 1979, is the western powers convenient bogeyman. A monster somewhat of their own creation, he is far more useful alive than dead. (Which is why he IS still alive.) His brutality & Stalinesque oppression was known & documented throughout his public career, which was catapulted by his first assasination. His use of chemical agents against civilians was known and documented throughout the '80s, the same period western powers continued to sell him chemical & biological materials. Western powers continued to arm both Iran & Iraq during their deadly war. No concerns were raised, nor sanctions called for, while Hussein brutalized & exterminated Kurds & Shi'ites, or executed opposition leaders. Western control over the region began slipping when the Arab oil producing nations formed OPEC & finally demanded a fair price for their oil (from $3 per barrel to $32 per barrel). It slipped further with the Iranian revolution, which sent the pro-western Shah into exile & ushered into power the brutal extremist Ayatollah Khomeini in '79. Iraq, formerly a wealthy, cultured, educated nation fell into ruins as Hussein plundered the country's wealth to wage war & self-glorify.
By 1990, Iraq was desperately in need of cash & its oil wells were the only source of reliable income. Throughout this period the western powers continued to support the man they would soon start demonizing, selling all the things later listed in UN resolutions. In early '90, Kuwait, formerly part of Iraq but controlled by the British & demarcated as a sovereign nation in 1928, broke from OPEC restrictions & increased its oil production by 20-25%. A favorable action for western consumption, the increase crashed Iraq's fragile economy as it drove oil prices down. Kuwait had lucrative business partnerships with western corporations, including, of course, major oil companies. Hussein was engaged in "talks" with western powers regarding its crisis & was assured the US had no 'defensive interests' in Kuwait. Hussein took the bait & invaded Kuwait in August 1990, declaring it to be Iraqi territory on the basis of pre-existing Ottoman Empire boundaries & attempted to secure its own national interests.
Up until this point, the US was unable to place any military base in the region as the Muslim states could not/would not permit non-Muslim nations to have military presence EXCEPT IN NEED OF DEFENSE & such a presence required an invitation. Successfully convincing the Saudi government that there were 250,000 Iraqi troops amassed along the Kuwait/Saudi Arabia border in preparation for a Saudi invasion, permission for US military presence was granted. [The banning of Christian symbols by the predominantly Christian troops duly noted.] The war machine rolled in immediately, ensuring no UN intervention or slow-down. The three major western powers of the alliance were America, Britain, & FRANCE. The fourth ally was Saudi Arabia. (The Kuwaitis, for the most part, fled.) The subsequent Persian Gulf War, still a hidden war in many respects, not only devastated Iraq & its people, it was the beginning seeds of 9-11 by way of those military bases. The war, aired to the public via government controlled CNN releases, appeared to be one great video game of neat, precise, sterile hits. It was anything but neat. An estimated 250,000 Iraqi CIVILIANS were killed by the massive bombings, said to equal 7 & 1/2 Hiroshimas, which included carpetbombing attacks. Iraq's water systems were deliberately destroyed & necessary infrastructures wiped out.
As the alliance pushed toward Baghdad with ground forces, Iraqi opposition forces began to organize & strenghten a resolve to oust Saddam Hussein. They believed the "allies" would assist them. They were wrong. To the surprise of everyone, including General Norman Schwarzkopf, an immediate cease fire was called, not by the UN, but by President Bush. The allied troops, 99.5% of which were Americ |
"Fides et Ratio" |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Theresa
Bumppo's Tavern Proprietress
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 17 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - February 24 2003 : 07:08:26 AM
|
Lainey,
I am nowhere near informed on all of this as you are and therefore do not intend to get into debate. All of this information you've laid out is quite amazing. I was listening to a program last night about the Gulf War. It stated the reason we pulled out of Iraq was a political decision and not a military one. President Bush was concerned that after all the bombing and destruction the U.S. would be looked upon as too aggressive (paraphrasing here) and the decision was made not to irradicate the last of the Republican Guard, thereby leaving Hussein in power along with all of the remaining army and munitions. Had that decision not been made, perhaps we wouldn't still be dealing with Hussein today. |
Theresa |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Dark Woods
Colonial Settler
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 18 2002
Status: offline
Donating Member |
Posted - February 26 2003 : 01:24:04 AM
|
| This has been an excellent discussion on Iraq in this forum. I get more thoughtful opinions here than from most other venues. |
We become what we think about. |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Bea
Keeper of the Western Door
Canada
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 18 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - February 28 2003 : 12:26:06 PM
|
Lainey, just wanting to let you know that I very much enjoyed your posts. They opened my eyes to many aspects.. I never thougt about Turkey this way.Very interesting and it makes sense to me..This may shed a different light on the NATO impasse of a few weeks ago although I am sure the respective countries also had their own agendas..
You're quite right about the Phillipines and terrorists. One of our church pastors has been living there for 6 years and we were quite aware of the very dangerous situation Christians are faced with every day.
And let's not forget Yemen..This country has hosted and trained terrorists since the 70's..I remember when the infamous BADER MEINHOF BAND in Germany was terrorizing and killing people. They were trained right in Yemen. I am wondering why no one has ever tried to remedy that situation ( other than sanctions).. But then again, I am not as informed and perhaps someone can enlighten me..
Did anyone catch the A&E bio on Saddam Hussein? I saw the beginning and then fell asleep.:) |
Carpe Diem |
| report to moderator |
|
|
securemann
Deerslayer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 08 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - March 01 2003 : 3:05:37 PM
|
| I know one thing,I'm no great fan of the Turks because they devastated my grandma's homeland 10 times in 120 years.Even though her surname was Turk,it probably meant that one of her direct kin back then was a good Turk killer and given this title as such.The Gottscheers were used as the front guard back then to fight the Turks.Now we solded out the Kurds to (guess who?) |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Lainey
TGAT
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 18 2002
Status: offline
Administrator |
|
|
Lainey
TGAT
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 18 2002
Status: offline
Administrator |
Posted - March 05 2003 : 11:07:59 PM
|
When the Patriarch Abraham left his beloved homeland, Ur of the Chaldeans which is now southern Iraq, in prayerful obedience to God's directive, going into the unknown he said, "I go in hope against hope."
That is where we are today regarding Iraq. Still hoping that God "inspires" those who beat America's war drums to be still.
Having thrown up my hands in frustration over a pervasive mood of gullibility that disbelieves fact & logic in favor of rhetoric & propaganda I deleted my previous statements (indictments, really) regarding media's culpability in deception and the aggressive hijacking of the democratic republic & its laws of liberty as we know it. Why risk my neck, patriotact-ly speaking, if no one cares to hear? That hasn't seemed right, though, because Americans ignore warnings at their own peril while people ARE dying. Many more will die & their deaths are not merely collateral damage. Illegal, immoral, & unjust - no matter how tightly wrapped in the US flag & all its freedom phrases the destruction of Iraq is presented, it's a hellish, damnable endeavour. I thought my post was pretty diluted, actually, so I'll have another go at it on another night. If only for my own conscience.
We hear the allegations over & over. Iraq must disarm. Iraq is in material breach of UN resolutions (16, is it?). The US claims it is justified in upholding the UN resolutions & forcing Iraq to comply. But the US also says it will "disarm by force" no matter who signs on at the UN Security Council. So, the US is claiming it will enforce these resolutions in the interest of upholding the UN's mandate, but it will ignore the UN should it not "vote with the US." It will violate the Security Council's decision in order to uphold the Security Council's decision???? Interesting logic there.
And why is enforcing UN resolutions so critical & necessary for "relevance" & democracy? There are DOZENS of UN resolutions against the state of Israel that are perpetually ignored. The US has never felt obliged to "enforce" the mandate & war against Israel to force it to "comply" & cease its slaughter of Palestinians. I wonder, too, if the US will present a resolution condemning Israel's plans to build a WALL totally enclosing & isolating Bethlehem??? The people of Bethlehem are pleading for international intervention to halt Israel's aggression. (I haven't noticed this crisis reported on the evening news ...)
A list of countries currently in material breach of UN resolutions follow, along with the author's commentary. The second part lists resolutions the US vetoed. So much for liberty, freedom, human rights, & all the other good stuff we claim to love & protect.
One other thought ... it's probably time for Americans to realize why there is so much opposition to US policies & US aggression. Most of the world sees the danger of having an uncontested superpower that is ready & able to impose its will upon the world by force, bribery, & extortion - & they're rightly resisting.
************************************
(Editor's Note: In its effort to justify its planned invasion of Iraq, the Bush administration has emphasized the importance of enforcing UN Security Council resolutions. However, in addition to the dozen or so resolutions currently being violated by Iraq, a conservative estimate reveals that there are an additional 88 Security Council resolutions about countries other than Iraq that are also currently being violated. This raises serious questions regarding the Bush administration's insistence that it is motivated by a duty to preserve the credibility of the United Nations, particularly since the vast majority of the governments violating UN Security Council resolutions are close allies of the United States. Stephen Zunes <stephen@coho.org>, University of San Francisco professor and Middle East Editor for Foreign Policy in Focus (online at www.fpif.org),compiled the following partial list of UN resolutions that are current |
"Fides et Ratio" |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Lainey
TGAT
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 18 2002
Status: offline
Administrator |
Posted - March 10 2003 : 01:35:31 AM
|
http://www.againstbombing.com/#History%20of%20the%20Gulf%20War
The Big Lie continues & still we're unmoved to question it. Still, corporate media hides it. Truth is NOT hard to find, it's hard to hear.
From the empirical, militaristic Wolfowitz Doctrine (once thought to be "chilling," it's now policy) to the unprecedented subjugation of Palestinians to the deviant designs against Iraq, so many still don't care to know. Not ONE legitimate argument justifying American destruction of Iraq via weapons of mass destruction can be made. Not one.
March 17? How chillingly dictatorial. |
"Fides et Ratio" |
| report to moderator |
|
|
securemann
Deerslayer
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
July 08 2002
Status: offline
|
Posted - March 10 2003 : 08:28:14 AM
|
| North Korea shooting off missiles,threatening nuclear war,thumbing their collective nose at us and Bush says we might have to talk at some point in time.He is hell bent on Iraq when the REAL threat is North Korea.Not too much stuff to gain in North Korea like Iraq.Hey maybe when we do fight the North Koreans will our troops be allowed to wear their religious items? Bush will be having our guys getting killed in Iraq for oil then the North Koreans will drop one on us in L.A. or somewhere else on the west coast.Who's the real threat now? |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Lainey
TGAT
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
May 18 2002
Status: offline
Administrator |
Posted - March 10 2003 : 5:02:27 PM
|
Jim, North Korea is not the lone country that can actually put up a fight in the mideast against growing Israeli aggression. N Korea is not an obstacle to total domination of the mideast by the Anglo-American-Israeli alliance. N Korea doesn't have "OUR" oil under "THEIR" sand. N Korea wasn't supplied/supported, used against Iran as a means to check Iran's strength, & then scheduled for demolition when no longer useful. N Korea didn't present a 1200 page document regarding its weapons, their final destiny, & a detailed list of countries & names that first supplied these now "evil" weapons - a document that was seized by the US without UN perusal in the name of "national security." Not being any of these things, why in the hell would we attack North Korea?
******************
One problem when discussing the "Iraqi Crisis" is we're all responding based upon differing points of presumed facts & that's framing the debate with all the wrong questions. From Iraq to Afghanistan to Palestine to the US, the ONLY common fact we have that is verifiable, acknowledged, & shared by all is that on September 11, 2001 there were mass murders of thousands of civilians, mostly Americans, committed on American soil. Everything beyond that first point becomes less clear. Because I'm convinced the planned assault upon Iraq & its people is nothing short of a greater campaign of destruction & domination throughout the middle east that is contrary to everything America claims to stand for, & I base this conviction upon verifiable proofs & defend it with a romp through recent history, I started backtracking to test the veracity of other events, claims, accusations, & actions recently taken by the 'coalition.' I surprised myself & should probably retract some of my previous statements made in the error of presumed facts. Most Americans would be jolted to realise how much our viewpoints have been formed & directed by conjecture & lies, fed to us by old reliable, the American mainstream media & their most preferred guests of choice - retired military.
Has anyone been troubled by the fact that foreign policy never changes no matter who is president (US) or prime minister (Britain or Israel)? Does anyone wonder why Americans generally know so little about events of the world, & even less about US foreign policy in action or, more importantly, who directs this policy? Isn't it a bit strange that such a small percentage of Americans know what led to & what occurred in the Persian Gulf War? Or the degree of human suffering caused by reckless, immoral, illegal sanctions these long 11 years? We think we know what happened. We think we know a lot. The truth is, we only 'know' what we've been dictated & the source of our 'knowledge' has been the great agents of disinformation, mainstream American media. Their job, if they wish to keep their privileged perches, is to disinform, divert, & disseminate propaganda to the American people in the form of a great web of deceit called 'news.' They regurgitate political puke for our delightful, limited consumption so that we might remain in our stupified condition. Unlike non-sanctioned American press, effectively marginalized as radical or un-American lest we, the people, actually listen, the broadcasters & print moguls are bought & paid for & anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves. Right-wing, left-wing, or entertainment. It doesn't matter. CNN, FOX, WSJ, NY Times, NBC, ABC, etcetera ... two sides of the same coin, as is our two-party political system, offered as an illusion of shiny choice. This charade, which includes the mother of all propaganda - creation of false opposition, is why we sit here debating "evils" of Saddam Hussein & the rightness of the planned destruction of Iraq rather than roundly condemning it.
There are three golden rules of engagement;
1) Create a crisis {usually the job of a nation's intelligence departments)
2) Heighten fear & nurture hysteria (dutifully carried out by a |
"Fides et Ratio" |
| report to moderator |
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
| The Mohican Board! [Bumppo's Redux!] |
© 1997-2025 - Mohican Press |
|
|
| Current Mohicanland page raised in 0.65 seconds |
 |
|
War ... Dancing With the Devil
