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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
 Posted - May 15 2004 : 9:02:50 PM
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Lorenzo, I agree with you. The written order from Custer spelled out, I believe, the following information.
"Benteen come Quick," (We have located the entire village, I need you with me to affect a capture.) "Big village", (the Indians are not strung along the Big Horn, we have then together, I need you.) "Bring Pac's" (we will need all of the ammunition available. In his haste to write the note, Cooke omitted the word ammunition.)
"P.S. Bring Pac's" (Attempting to correct the earlier ommission, Cooke reinterated the bring pac's command but, still omitted the word ammunition.) Needless to say, this interpretation does not necessarily mean that Custer was beside himself with fear and apprehesion, but to say that no peril existed is difficult to comprehend. |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 15 2004 : 9:58:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
Dark Cloud, please take a breath, pause a moment, then relax a spell. I believe that you somehow have taken this entire exchange of information in a personal manner. That, to me, is regrettable. I wish you had not felt compelled to unleash such a barrage of unbridled anger towards me. Where I am confused is your completely negative attitude towards anything I say. No human is wrong all of the time, but according to you I am. You accused me of lying,and creating a fabrication. You charged me with stating that Benteen DELIBERATELY failed to save soldiers being slaughtered, and my continuous failure to address my false statement. The operative word here is and,I might add, one chosen by you, "deliberate", is patentedly incorrect.
Can you not distinquish between the following two concepts; deliberately failed to save the soldiers (your statement) and, Benteen observed (which he testified to) the soldiers being slaughtered. (my actual statement)
Wiggs, just who exactly do you think you're fooling? Your denial and your original statement use ALMOST EXACTLY the same words.
THE DENIAL: "I did not charge Benteen with failure to render aid to the troopers left behind on the valley floor."
THE ORIGINAL STATEMENT: "Benteen failed to render aid to 10 to 12 soldiers that HE obsevred being slaughtered in the valley."
I can't distinguish between these comments at all, except that in one you're obviously lying when you deny making the original statement.
The most disturbing thing about this is that you claim to have once been a police officer. It's scary to think that anybody was ever sent to jail based mainly on the sworn testimony of Officer Joseph Wiggs.
R. Larsen
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 15 2004 : 10:03:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
"P.S. Bring Pac's" (Attempting to correct the earlier ommission, Cooke reinterated the bring pac's command but, still omitted the word ammunition.)
Why would Cooke write a postscript specifically to correct an earlier omission, and then fail to make the correction?
quote:
Needless to say, this interpretation does not necessarily mean that Custer was beside himself with fear and apprehesion, but to say that no peril existed is difficult to comprehend.
Define what you mean by "peril," in the context of the Cooke note.
R. Larsen
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 15 2004 : 11:44:33 PM
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It was I who mentioned the sabers. I never said they may have won the day, but I questioned the ability to sustain a cavalry charge in a large village when your Colt .45 is empty. I have often thought that it would be a bit better with a saber to use during the attack. That was what I was getting at. Plus, its documented that the Indians didn't like the "long knives", which were the primary shock weapon of the time for cavalry.
As for Benteen's assertion of soldiers being attacked in the valley, he said something to the effect of "I saw 12-15 troopers in the valley, in skirmish order, being charged and recharged by 900 warriors". I've also read that this isn't really believed, since there really wasn't any organization in the valley when Benteen arrived on the scene.
I don't necessarily believe the Cooke message had the PS to correct an error, but to reiterate and put emphasis on bringing the packs up. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 16 2004 : 01:24:35 AM
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Lorenzo,
I suspect we have a language barrier; lord knows, I do at this point. Are you writing in Italian and using Babelfish to translate? An old Fielding Guide? If not, try Babelfish. It surely could not be worse, because your last posting made no sense to me. I'll use Babelfish to translate this and you can tell me if it works better.
Lorenzo,
Ritengo sospetto che abbiamo una barriera linguistica; il signore sa, io a questo punto. Siete che scrivete in italiano e che usando Babelfish per tradurre? Una vecchia guida di Fielding? Se non, prova Babelfish. Certamente non potrebbe essere più difettoso, perché il vostro ultimo invio non ha avuto significato me. L'uso Babelfish di I'll tradurli questo e può dirmi se funziona più meglio. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 16 2004 : 01:44:56 AM
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Mr. Wiggs,
You serve as a vital reminder that illiteracy, ignorance, and vanity based upon elevated delusions of mediocrity are no longer enough for success in 2004, and that confused writing is proof positive of a confused mind, and that Custer even yet attracts those who want to use him to deal with their own issues.
You need to admit you lied, and to apologize. And, you know, in general to shape up. Appealing to Lorenzo for support isn't quite drop kicking wounded hummingbirds, but edging close. Really, with your own postings serving as evidence, who are you fooling? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - May 16 2004 : 08:27:54 AM
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Dear Dark Cloud,
I guess it's my fault. I use any kind of translator. That's just my silly head  but the only way to learn a good english I guess. I understand well what you written and, so, must be that my english it's so confused that you don't understand. Still ask pardon for it, and to be patient.
In your last post however, you said to notice nothing about peril in Cooke message, and that Benteen did'nt knew from that message or from Martin relation that Custer was close to a combat and then I answered that I found it not true.
There is nothing in Cooke's note to indicate Custer was in peril or even in combat or close to it.
Well, the message to me, as said Mr Wiggs, it's clear. I think too like "anonymous" that the ps "bring packs" was to give emphasis sand importance to the needing ammunitions. The same fact Custer asked for packs, to be quick, and stating to be in front of a big village, means clearly that he was planning an attack and needed all the forces united.
In fact, what info may have come from Martin indicates even less alarm;
Martin said to Benteen:"I suppose that by this time he (Custer) had charged through the village". Then Benteen had the sureness Custer was attacking or planning one attack in the following minutes. And Martin said also: "had not time to stop to look after Reno battle, but seems the line (of Reno)was falling back." Then message was really alarming. And Benteen had to know it.
Hope this time is clear. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - May 16 2004 : 09:14:19 AM
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errata corrige:
was el crab not anonymous. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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Realbird
Recruit
Status: offline |
Posted - May 16 2004 : 10:48:15 AM
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| As a native of Montana, I have lived with the story of Custer and his battle for many years. I guess I have heard about a thousand stories about it. I have followed this hot discussion between Mr. Wiggs and Dark Cloud, I have to say with amazement and amusement. Dark Cloud charges Mr. Wiggs with everything under the sun, none of which has anything to do with the issues. Someone earlier touched on "ranting", someone else spoke of "Dark Clouds." Well, add a vote for me on both, ranting and dark clouds. What does a man's opinion about something have to do with his profession? What I find so funny is that Mr. Wiggs seems to know what he is talking about and that is the reason for so much anger against him. Keep up the good work sir. |
Edited by - Realbird on May 16 2004 11:12:18 AM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 16 2004 : 11:27:39 AM
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Lorenzo,
The message doesn't mention ammunition, indicate danger, or anything like it. Nobody said at the time they thought it did. Only in hindsight.
References to packs could mean they needed ammo (Custer didn't at the time; they hadn't fired a shot)OR that because of the big village Benteen needed to take the train in his care and protect it in the advance, and to hurry it. It could as well indicate that Custer and Reno are waiting for Benteen to begin action. Only alleged oral indicators from the couriers suggested action had begun, but they also indicated that Benteen's presence would be academic, as the Indians were running.
Again, it's useless to arrive with exhausted horses, which Benteen's were. Knowing that a charge of some sort was in the immediate future, Benteen's proceeding as he did can be supported. Also argued, but it wasn't a set of known variables at the time. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - May 16 2004 : 12:07:24 PM
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look at the message.
1/ It is not timed.
This renders the order useless from a military point of view.
2/Omits to say where it was written.
So where is Benteen supposed to go?
3/It mentions a big village
The village is 4 miles long.What part of it is Benteen supposed to head for.
4/The message fails to explain Custers intentions
Where can Benteen expect to find him in 45 minutes?
5/Omits to say Reno is attacking.
Lorenzo you are basing your reasoning on hindsight and sentiment.
Benteen carried out his orders.He hurried the pack train along and did seek out the big village where he found elements of the regiment in great difficulty.
When Custer sent the order to Benteen he knew that Reno was having trouble[Reno had sent 2 messengers to him].Why did he not order Benteen to assist Reno if he needed it?
Having sent back the order why did Custer not take up a defensive position and await the reinforcements?
Custer committed Reno and his 3 troops to attack without knowing what lay ahead or how he would support him.There was no chance of him being able to coordinate his attack with Reno's
The message sent back with a trooper who could not speak English is just one example of Custer having his head up his backside that tragic day.[Actually it was not tragic seeing as how the 7th were hellbent on a spot of genocide]
If Cooke had somehow survived he should have been charged with incompetance.
This is the message he should have sent
HQ GROUP
TIME 3.34
lOCATION EAST SIDE OF LBH 3 MILES NORTH OF LONE TEPEE
TO CAPT BENTEEN
It is my intention to attack the North end of village.
You are to proceed with your battalion and pack train to north of village and report to me.
Make all possible haste.
Note/Reno is now engaging hostiles at the South of village.At your discresion you may detach part of pack train and one troop to reinforce him.
WW Cooke.
If any of you lads can write a better order Iwill buy you lunch the next time you are in Dublin
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 16 2004 : 12:53:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Realbird
What I find so funny is that Mr. Wiggs seems to know what he is talking about and that is the reason for so much anger against him. Keep up the good work sir.
If Wiggs knew what he was talking about then I wouldn't have had to correct his numerous errors and inaccuracies.
What I do object to are his lies and obfuscations. The rest is just harmless nonsense.
R. Larsen
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Edited by - Anonymous Poster8169 on May 16 2004 1:03:31 PM |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 16 2004 : 3:03:13 PM
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Yesterday I re-discovered a wonderful book by Charles Kuhlman, originally published in 1951. It is titled- 'Legend into History and Did Custer Disobey Orders at the Battle of the Little Big Horn'? If you have not read this wonderful book yet, I highly recommend that you do. Allow me to share a small portion of the Intro. (Brian C. Pohanka)with you.
"Central to the thesis expounded in Legend into History is Kuhlman's belief that Custer massed his five companies on the hill where he would later make his last stand, then deployed them in a holding action intended to cover the anticipated arrival of Reno and Benteen."
Secondly:
"It is to Kuhlman's credit that he refused to fall prey to the common impression that Custer's fight was from the very out-set a beleaguered, desperate struggle against thundering Indian hoards. Kuhlman correctly assumed that the Sioux and Cheyennes had no cohesive strategy other than to cross the river and engage the soldiers who threatened the village."
What is fascinating about his book, for me anyway, is Kuhlman's finding that Custer did not disobey General Terry's orders and, that the battle proceeded from Custer Hill towards Calhoun Hill in a north to south flow rather than, the more commonly accepted, south to north flow. Whether Custer obeyed or disobeyed Terry's order is still, of course, hotly contested. However, Big Horn scholars are today unanimous in choosing the south to north flow. While is true that Kuhlman's reconstruction can be challenged in some of its aspects, his overall sense of a gradual deterioration in Army tactics leading to a military collapse is essentially valid. Deterioration in tactics could include:
1. Not sustaining prescribed skirmish spacing (bunching) to ensure ultimate fire power.
2. Leaving the field of battle without having trumpeteers sound withdrawal to ensure that all troopers were aware of the movement.
3. Failure to obey written notes from the commander.
Needless to say other factors may be discussed and proffered. I've just touched upon a few. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 16 2004 : 4:35:23 PM
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Kuhlman's book is old and I'd hope we're all familiar with it past the prologue. Gray thought well of it, and they both agree that Benteen was negligent at least. Kuhlman dresses that up some more, and Gray's own timing doesn't support it, but it was an effective last shot of either one of the last of the Olde Custer Supporters OR a first shot in the counter-reformation now up and running against Patricia Limerick and her acolytes.
But nobody is arguing or has argued for decades that Custer disobeyed Terry's orders. That's not just kicking a dead horse,it's grave robbing of an old argument to distract attention from your current position of having been called on fabrications and lies about those fabrications.
Nobody for decades has suggested that the Indians set a trap for Custer, which was seriously considered when Kuhlman wrote.
That Custer would want Reno and Benteen to join him in a crappy defensive position or seriously expected they would is a major fallacy to me, given that stopped cavalry with no cover for horses or men is a dead duck. This the blind spot of Custer Buffs, who go to great lengths to divert attention away from Custer never attacking at all, for all the bluster about it, and have never come up with coherent reason for his advance beyond MTC, or his choice of a defensive position.
Meanwhile, due to the vast improvement in grammar and spelling, who wrote that last post for you? Sounds like a different person entirely. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - May 16 2004 : 5:12:54 PM
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Dear Dark Cloud you say
References to packs could mean they needed ammo (Custer didn't at the time; they hadn't fired a shot)OR that because of the big village Benteen needed to take the train in his care and protect it in the advance, and to hurry it. It could as well indicate that Custer and Reno are waiting for Benteen to begin action. Only alleged oral indicators from the couriers suggested action had begun, but they also indicated that Benteen's presence would be academic, as the Indians were running.
Message was clearly asking to come quick with packs. Martin, as I have said, give clear indications of what was happening. It was the second time Custer asked to Benteen (and Mc Dougall) to be quick. The heart of the matter was this: Benteen he had to come quick. He don't.
Again, it's useless to arrive with exhausted horses, which Benteen's were
The horses of other troopers made as much as Benteen horses. He also made his recognition with a slow speed, so slow to be out of the regular speed asked by the manual of Chevalry; the manual ask to mantain an 8 km pro Hour speed and Benteen hold a 5 km speed. When Benteen came back on the principal path, it was still possible to join the other troopers that were at the "solitary tepee". He had just to hurry a little bit. And then, after Martini message, He need 70 minuts to cover 3 miles - that mean to be quick for him.
Wild
1/ It is not timed.
This renders the order useless from a military point of view.
2/Omits to say where it was written.
So where is Benteen supposed to go?
3/It mentions a big village
The village is 4 miles long.What part of it is Benteen supposed to head for.
4/The message fails to explain Custers intentions
Where can Benteen expect to find him in 45 minutes?
5/Omits to say Reno is attacking.
The order was originally an oral order. You may agree that there was not the time to sit down on a tent to write as in a normal situation would have been done.It was so not timed and report just the most important things to know: come quick with ammunitions because of a big village. Martin was charged to explain the order to Benteen, so did'nt need to write all your mentioned points. Martin explained to Benteen where Custer was (the place from where he came).
For your other points, well, I have showed you how Benteen did'nt hurry at all (3 miles 70 minuts). We are not sure then If Custer knew about Reno defeat, cause someone says that it was so and someone other says that it was'nt. At my opinion, he knew that he was troubled, and modified his plan for it. He choose a manual tactical diversion to the right side but was repulsed and then must fight for his own life as the retreat of Reno came, letting free a big number more of indians. The only problem is that nobody survive to witness this, if not the indians. And much of them supported this theory. As Curley for exemple.
I agree with you that Cooke made not a perfect work with the order, but at that time, before of form was quickness. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 16 2004 : 9:05:01 PM
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According to Gray, it took Custer 46 minutes from the burned lodge to where he divurged from Reno. Benteen made the same journey about three minutes slower.
He met Martini on the flat. It's about two miles to Reno Hill and he made it in 20 minutes. What are you talking about with three miles 90 minutes? You say Martini explained where Custer was to Benteen. How do you know that, or how well Martini could say anything in English (he says it was bad at the Reno inquiry), or what Benteen understood him to say?
If you are predicating much on the ambiguities of Benteen's scout, you need to be specific. His scout consisted of the main body, himself ahead, and Gibson's advance party who made the longest journey. I never rode the land but it surely looks pretty damned awful for horses, even worse than the trail of Custer and Reno, especially horses unwatered on a 90 degree day since an alkaline wash at 8PM previous, and this could easily have contributed to the sense of much greater distance. Custer and Reno had a far better route and a slightly . |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 16 2004 : 9:07:18 PM
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Lorenzo, you are quite correct, in an era which preceded field radios, field telephones, and ham radios, a written note was the only alternative to a verbal request/command during combat. The fact that an imperative command was written or a scrap of paper does not, however, lessen the importance, urgency, or validity of the note. In an effort to understand what Benteen must have felt or thought, let us place ourselves on his saddle when he received the note. What could (or should have)he have surmised from the message.
Possibilities:
A. Come quickly (you are urgently needed)
B. Big Village (We have them all before us or there's a hell of a lot of them.)
C. Bring Pac's (We need the ammunition for an endeavor we are about to commit to.) This request for ammo. was not an indication of a shortage in Custer's command as they had not yet engaged in a major confrontation.
The next step is to evaluate the actions of Benteen
after receiving the message.
1. Martini (an honorable compatriot of yours) new to this Country was limited in his skill of the usage of the English language and referred to the warriors as, "shedaddling." Rather than doing a follow up question session to ascertain exactly what Martini meant, Benteen suddenly observed that Martini's mount had suffered a gun shot to its flank and ordered him to the rear. Martini later testified, at the Reno Inquiry, that his command of English was not that good but, that Benteen never gave him a change to explain the situation further.
What then does Benteen do when this golden opportunity to establish Custer's whereabouts and needs are wasted? He proceeds to the morass at a cavalry walk, rather than a trot. Upon arriving at the watering hole he spent twenty minutes or so watering his thirsty horses.
I will not comment on the validity of a twenty minute watering period other than to say that it is a matter of record that several troopers grumbled about,in their minds, a needless delay.
Benteen finally reaches the bluffs just in time to render aid and solace to Reno and his men. I find nothing wrong with his doing so. Where I have a problem is his remaining at that spot for over an hour awaiting the ammo. packs. His men had not fired a shot thus far.
We can never know what final results a Benteen charge towards Custer Hill may have resulted in. We will never know his exact feeling or motivation to do what he did.
I am inclined to believe that he may have felt that Custer, with his five companies, was in no worse a situation then he with his five companies (actually six, but "G" troop had been reduced to only three men.) We can only speculate, surmise, and wonder. There is so much room for alternative, new thoughts regarding this battle that one can not help, but be excited about future possibilities.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 16 2004 : 11:42:22 PM
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Again, the morass watering was long before he met Martin. It's even before the single lodge the scouts burned. Three pages and you still haven't got it. This is where I came in.
Apparently someone gave you a dictionary, a thesaurus, or a McGuffy Reader that has inspired you to use two, three, or even four examples, synonyms, or - more often - irrelevant, foolish, and mind-numbing collections of words, phrases, gutteral exhalations to suggest, prove, or exculpate you from the charge, evidence, or exhumation of your verbose, padded, desperate attempts to be taken seriously as a scholar, at face value, a person who reads. It has the opposite effect, result, something or other.
(Judas, Lorenzo, don't take up the cudgel on that, please, I beg you.)
And you still haven't explained your denial of what you wrote. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - May 17 2004 : 07:19:28 AM
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Hi Lorenzo
Many years ago when I was in the army and doing training on communications/messages they told a story just to illustrate how messages can go wrong.
A general sends back a message----
"Send reinforcements we want to advance"
By the time it got to HQ the message read-----
"send three and four pence we want to go to a dance.[hope your English is good enough to see the funny side]
Military messages have got to be precise otherwise you get the confusion that occured at the LBH.
Slan |
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My Dad is a Blonker
Recruit
Status: offline |
 Posted - May 17 2004 : 08:27:56 AM
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My Dad's a Blonker.
I believe Cluster's last word's were, "Get up the yard, ye good thing"!! |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - May 17 2004 : 10:09:39 AM
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Dear dark Cloud,
According to Gray, it took Custer 46 minutes
Well I suppose we have different sources. About time, there are much people who claim of the slow speed of Benteen. At this point, I guess you will ask the sources, if it is so, tell it and I will make a list in my next post. A lie of Benteen for exemple, is written in his letter to the wife, where he said to be five or six miles in front of Packs when he received the Martini's message. Martin, testify at the inquiry, but also with Graham (and he had no reasons to lie) that pack-train "was not far behind. It was in sight, maybe a mile away".Why did Benteen lied about the distance? There are other incongruences on what he told and what he've done. But now it's not important. John Darling gives a quite different version of Benteen recognition than yours, for exemple.
Martin
he don't tell to be unable to speak english, but that he was learning it. However, Martin explained him where Custer was, and Benteen had to have understood as he made the way.
Mr Wiggs:
As you will understand, I agree with the first part of your post. Of course, not with the part where no faults are giving to Benteen. I don't want to believe that he made it on purpose, it's too cruel to thinking this. It's hard and stupid I think to believe that an Officier could make die 200 men just for hating one. And then, Benteen was not a killer. What I think is that Benteen underestimated the situation, failing to make acts that would have been able to change the sort of the battle - this is not a certitude, but at least a chance.
Wild:
yes, I understand the joke...
Ps: I thank you all to give me the chance to talking with you about the Battle: it's very exciting. Tank you to everybody.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lorenzo
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If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 17 2004 : 11:56:17 AM
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What source contradicts Gray on that point of time between receiving Martini and reaching Reno Hill? None. Zero. You're making that up.
According to officers with Benteen, who never mentions it, at the trail divergence between Custer and Reno he didn't know which way to go till they decided north. According to Godfrey, anyway, who is also, I think, the sole source for the grumbling among officers (not soldiers) at the morass for the time taken.
I'm looking at Benteen's letter and he says he got to the morass just ahead of the packs. What are you talking about? I suspect you're conflating incidents.
We don't know the state of Martin's English other than it was bad, but it wasn't to be mistaken for Thomas Carlisle three years later at the Inquiry. It was probably quite bad at LBH. What Martin thought he said and what Benteen honestly heard him say is a topic on which there can be no agreement or basis for dispute, but certainly there is more than enough evidence to suppose that he could well have been incomprehensible, which is why Cooke wrote out his message, and Benteen needs to be given benefit of the doubt here. Not that it's crucial.
What you say about Benteen could apply to all the officers, Custer especially, who CLEARLY didn't appreciate the situation till it was too late. My mantra has been that if you establish a consistence set of criteria and apply it to all three of the ranking officers for their decisions at the LBH, Custer loses because he himself is guilty of the same failures for which his supporters damn Reno and Benteen. And he was in charge.
I'm getting suspicious about the variations in your spelling and English errors as well. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 17 2004 : 3:39:39 PM
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Excerps from THE CUSTER MYTH; Colonel W. A. Graham (A source Book of Custeriana}
General Godfrey's Narative:
The valley was full of horsemen riding to and fro in clouds of dust and smoke, for the grass had been fired by the Indians to drive the troops out and cover their movements. On the BLUFFS to our right we saw a body of troops and that they were engaged. But an engagement appeared to be going on in the valley too. Owning to the DISTANCE, SMOKE and dust, it was impossible to distinguish if those in the valley were friends or foes."
"A number of officers collected on the edge of the bluff overlooking the valley and where discussing the situation. At this time there was were a large number of horsemen, Indians, in the valley. Suddenly they all started down the valley, and in a few minutes scarcely a horseman was to be seen. Heavy firing was heard down the river. during this time the questione were being asked: 'What's the matter with Custer, that he don't send word what we shall do?' 'Wonder what we are staying here for?'etc.
"It was about this time Custer was last seen that Trumpeter Martin left Cooke with Custer's last order to Benteen, viz: "Benteen, Come On. Big Village. Be Quick. Bring Packs. Cooke, Adjutant. P.S. Bring Packs." The repetition in the order would seem to indicate that Cooke was excited, flurried, or that he wanted to emphasize the necessity for escorting the packs."
"During a long time after the junction of Reno and Benteen we heard firing down the river in the direction of Custer's command. We were satisfied that Custer was fighting the Indians somewhere, and the conviction was expressed that "Our command ought to be doing something or Custer would be after Reno with a sharp stick."
Still, Lorenzo, they did not come.
I certainly do understand your disagreeing with me. In a polite society adults agree to disagree. Those who would resort to character assassinations are to be pitied for being small minded and, unable to achieve a cause through open debate. Fortunantly, individuals of that ilk are of the minority here. I think we both agree that Benteen had other options than the one he chose. Where we part ways is how we each regard his motivation for doing so. You certainly have a valid view point. Giving the Major the benefit of a doubt, I prefer to believe that his decision was based on the situation as he found it. Of course, as you alreay know, it is his lingering on the bluffs with his intact command that disturbs me. There are those who take the position that Benteen could not, morally, leave Reno and his men behind as they were traumatized and unable to function. The other side of that very coin is the moral obligation to Custer and his men who subsequently died. As Godfrey stated, every warrior in the valley suddenly headed north leaving the Benteen/Reno conclave alone. The vacuum left by the suddenly departed Indians could have been filled with scouts, squads, volunteers, or companies of troopers, none of which happened. |
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Benteen's order
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