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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - May 17 2004 : 4:14:13 PM
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Wiggs, no surprise, but you don't quote accurately. I now share Larson's fear of what you did as a police officer if this is your idea of recounting the truth.
Among other things, the quote is "It was about THE time Custer was last seen...." indicating a past event, rather than your "it was about THIS time..." which would lead the unwary to an incorrect conclusion.
You also omit Moylan's comment about it being the biggest mistake of Custer's life, the portion Mrs. Custer later asked to be taken out but which Graham footnoted. You also omit "...still no one seemed to show great anxiety..." about Custer. Also, note that the sharp stick episode is of the nature of doing something so that they don't get in trouble, not in saving Custer who they clearly feel is okay if he's to be after Reno later. Also, this is on Reno Hill and not back at the various places you previously suggested.
In a polite society people don't lie, especially about the dead, and are cancerous about people, like yourself, who do. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 17 2004 : 4:16:45 PM
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The argument here is taking longer than the battle, itself. Could someone explain, if Benteen were two miles from Reno Hill and, therefore, about five miles from Custer Hill (if I remember correctly), what would Benteen have found had he made the 50 minute trip--or 40 minute, or even 30 minute?
Next question: What would have happened to Reno's command sans Benteen's reinforcement of it?
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Bob Bostwick |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 17 2004 : 7:32:56 PM
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| Gee, dark cloud, surely you didn't think I was referring to you, did you? |
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Realbird
Recruit
Status: offline |
Posted - May 17 2004 : 8:06:38 PM
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| Dark Cloud I never claimed to know more or less than the next man. I'm just me. One thing I can see is that I just don't understand your meaness. You say things I wouldn't say to a dog. Where I come from, men don't speak to anyone like that, not even their wives. We all are here to learn and not listen to you rant and rave. Please take a pill and get some rest. |
Edited by - Realbird on May 17 2004 8:09:46 PM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 17 2004 : 9:33:38 PM
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But falsely accusing Benteen of deliberately letting people die isn't mean?
This isn't a twelve step unit where feelings and self image are relevant. If you defame someone baselessly, you need to apologize, not pretend to other identities in your own defense, however pallid, or try to deny it or change the subject. These guys deserve far better.
You don't know from mean if you think I've been such any more than Wiggs can be witty, pithy, truthful, or interesting. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - May 18 2004 : 03:55:55 AM
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Hi Heavy Runner
what would Benteen have found had he made the 50 minute trip--or 40 minute, or even 30 minute?
Next question: What would have happened to Reno's command sans Benteen's reinforcement of it?
The Indians reacted in overwhelming force to the 4 situations which arose during Custer's attack on the village.
1 Reno's attack------------Routed with heavy casualties
2 Custers attack ----------Annihilated
3Reno & Benteens advance---Repulsed
4Reno & Benteens defence---Heavy casualties /7th neutralized as an attacking force.
Any other action by any any of the units involved either alone or together would have resulted in serious failure.
As an attacking force the 7th had tired horses and effectively 6 rounds of ammo per man.What can you achieve with that.The numbers for warriors is given as 1500.I think if you throw in experienced granddads and excited grandsons you get at least 3000 fighting men in your face what ever convoluted tactics you attempt.
In this discussion some people have critized Benteen and Reno and make a case for Custer being a victim of the cowardice/incompetance/disloyalty of these officers.Well Custer did not support Reno as promised.He could not even attack the village and the handling of his command when in contact with the enemy and in defence was deplorable.
If Custer had survived he should have been shot for murder for that is what it amounted to.
Slan
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - May 18 2004 : 06:54:45 AM
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Well dear Dark Cloud,
it seems that you don't see what I write. And then is to me to suspect, viewed that other people understand me and answer without problems.
But falsely accusing Benteen of deliberately letting people die isn't mean?
Much of what you said about Custer, it is not more tender of this. If other people cannot acting so, this must be the same for you too. Custer was not an idiot or a killer as Bentenn was not too. Personally, i simply think that from the first mythicizing of Custer, the opinion is passed to demonization and this I can't accept it. I hate this. If he does wrong that damned day, other officiers too did. Problem is that other officiers was there to make an account and a defense for themselves but Custer not because he died fighting with his men. Nelson Miles could answer to you as he did: "To blame defeat at Little Big Horn on Custer is kick a dead lion". You have talk also about private problems (voices and suspiscions, you add then that you're not interested on it) of Custer out of Little Big Horn, but then, what's about court martial of Benteen that he had to face 1887 for "conduct unbecoming an officer and gentleman"? You did'nt talk about it. In his writings about Custer he had gone so far in prejudices, anger, hate, to become ridiculous. No one is perfect.
I'm looking at Benteen's letter and he says he got to the morass just ahead of the packs. What are you talking about? I suspect you're conflating incidents.
It's a letter written from Benteen to his wife, reported from Graham in his "Custer Myth" at the page number 297:
July 4th 1876, Montana
Camp 7th Cavalry, Yellowstone River
Opposite Mouth of Bighorn river
My Darling...I will commence this letter by sending a copy of the last lines Cooke ever wrote, which was an orderto me to this effect.( follows the text big village packs etc.)...
This note was brought back to me by trumpeter Martin (curiosity, this gentleman called Martini a "thick headed, dull, witted italian just cut out for a cavalryman as he was for a king")of my Co. When I received It I was five or six miles from the village, perhaps more, and the packs at least that distance in my rear
Well, i repeat: why liying?
Benteen needs to be given benefit of the doubt here
Yes, I agree with you. But this benefit needs Custer too.
You said to mr Wiggs: You also omit Moylan's comment about
Of course someone would have been not worried about Custer fate. You use it almost as a proof that Custer was disliked from his trooper, but you forget maybe that it's not so pretty if you ascribe this to 7th Chevalry as with General Custer there was more of 200 men that would have perished while they was no worried about. I think instead they was worried about him and his men. I don't know why Moylan said that, but I refuse to believe someone don't giving a damn of 200 companions just because he disliked their Commander. There are however other soldiers that told to be worried as Edgerly or Weir, that start without permission towards Custer.
wild
Well Custer did not support Reno as promised.
Custer don't support him because he died on the camp,just because Reno retreated too early letting free a great part of indians. Reno don't support Custer because he retreated. That's different. Herendeen:"Just as we got settled down firing below us opened and we knew that Custer was engaged. The indians had been leaving Reno and going down in the valley in considerable numer". Girard: "Indians picked off troops at will; it was a rout not a charge"
by the comments of General Fry on Godfrey's narrative: "About the same time that Reno's command was crossing the river in retreat, after he had been engaged only half an hour or forty five minuts in all, says the Reno court of inquiry, Benteen approached. His 3 companies doubled Reno's force, giving him six companies. Custer's need of men and ammunition was shown by his last order which Benteen received before joining Reno. Under the circumstances Reno might well have treated this order as applying to him as well as to Benteen. During a long time after benteen joining Reno Custer's firing was heard showing that his 5 companies were hotly engaged with the opposite force that Reno had found too strong".
Mr Wiggs
I agree with your positions and, I renew my request to write you. I can't explain what's about but privately. If you give me the permission I write you a mail from here where I explain all.
Thank you.
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If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - May 18 2004 : 09:39:47 AM
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Hi Lorenzo
Custer don't support him because he died
Custer committed Reno's unit to attack without knowing how he would support him or how he would coordinate his attack with Reno's.When Custer was attacked by Crazy horse he was going away from Reno.
Reno don't support Custer because he retreated.
Reno carried out his orders and attacked.Custer left him to face the entire village on his own.
When Custer [with 5 troops]tried to attack he was driven back in panic.Why blame Reno for retreating?Most of his officers praised him for his action in halting the charge.
His 3 companies doubled Reno's force,
Reno's unit was defeated,broken,demoralized.Useless except in defence.
During a long time after benteen joining Reno Custer's firing was heard showing that his 5 companies were hotly engaged with the opposite force that Reno had found too strong".
Weir set off for Custer almost immediately and got no further than Weir point----why?
It was custer's decision to deploy his forces out of supporting distance of each other.It was Custer's decision to launch an uncordinated attack without an overall plan.It was Custer's decision not to take extra ammo.Custer's handling of his troops doomed them.Reno and Benteen faced with the same difficulty as Custer saved theirs.
Slan
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 18 2004 : 11:28:24 AM
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Sigh.
Lorenzo, when Benteen received Martin he WAS three or four miles from the main village at least even as the crow flies. Look at the map. Two days ago, you yourself claimed it was three miles to Reno Hill from the spot where Martini met him and complaining it took Benteen 90 minutes to walk it.
That he made an error doesn't strike me as a big deal. The pack train HAD fallen behind, although not that far. His errors are perfectly understandable and don't in any way work to his favor. In any case, why is this assumed to be a lie and for what purpose, given he wrote this to his WIFE right after the battle? This wasn't testimony but a letter written in exhaustion, I think it fair to say. After all, who was aware of this letter in Benteen's lifetime outside of wife and family? Nobody.
I note you're no longer trying to insert the watering chronology incorrectly.
Speaking of lies, Martin is reported, not just by Benteen, to have told people the Indians were running. THAT was arguably more of a lie, since he had seen no such thing, and probably affected Benteen's opinion of the guy with reason, don't you think?
For example, Lorenzo, I find it mildly frustrating to read your posts because of tense errors and other things, but I sincerely appreciate your efforts and enthusiasm. Just like idiot American tourists have for decades offended the world in their smug surety that comprehension by foreigners is enhanced by screaming phrases slowly in English at them, Europeans (and now Japanese) sometimes have this baseless confidence their English is much better than it is. I worked for years in an International Hostel in Colorado, I worked in Europe, and I've experienced it on both sides.
If you were Martini (and you probably have a better grasp of English than he did) and I was Benteen and you were imparting important, life and death info that could easily be misunderstood or heard as little better than gibberish, I'd be pissed off if there was a communication breakdown as well that partially led to dire circumstances. After all, if Martin had said Reno was retreating under fire, it's reasonable to assume Benteen or anyone would have acted different.
If it were me trying to give similar info to Garibaldi in my pathetic Italian, the roles would be reveresed.
You take Benteen's outrage against Martini as the rant of a bigot against Italians, which I suspect affects your various conclusions about him and the battle. Benteen WAS a bigot of the first water, but he exhibits no animosity towards Europeans. And his anger at Martini is personal and seemingly comes from this one incident, and when you look at what proceeded from it, I think Benteen's rage is rather understandable, if unfair.
I talk about Benteen's courtmartial for being a drunk (and sick as a horse with prostate and other problems) when it's relevant. He was forgiven and eventually elevated in rank. I've never tried to make him out to be more than he was: a good soldier, bitter, a bad drunk. That describes a lot of these men, by the way. It isn't relevant to the LBH, though. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 18 2004 : 12:13:18 PM
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wILD,
Thanks for responding. You cover the questions central to all this. I've always felt that the Benteen question--coming to the aide of Custer--leaves a moot point. Custer was either already dead or, for any practical purpose, a dead man. The same was true for his troop.
Having visited the battlefield several times, it's very clear that Benteen or Reno, for that matter, could not have done anything to help Custer in the half hour, or so, that it took the Indians to wipe him out.
I believe the better speculation would be to consider what might have happened had Custer waited for Gibbon, as ordered. I also believe that even a combined force would have been defeated by the Indians in a standup fight.
Custer divided his command very similarly to his tactics at the Wa****a, as if he was thinking he had the same advantage. He didn't.
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Bob Bostwick |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 18 2004 : 1:35:14 PM
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Wild one, I dissagree with you on one salient point, Custer did support Reno as promised. His last words to Reno were, and I paraphrase: Take your batttalion and try and bring them to battle and I will support you. At the time, Custer believe that the Indians were on the "jump." Reno, understandably , assummed that the promised support would come from his rear. Not seeing this support while in route to the sounthern end of the village, Reno dispatched two messengers to the rear towards Custer to inform him that the warriors were to his (Reno's) front.
As we now know, and Reno could not have known, Custer instead, made a right turn towards Reno's bluffs. The reason for this sudden change of plans may be debated later. However, after his departure from the skirmish line and, shortly after his arrival upon the bluffs, virtually every warrior in the valley below suddenly headed north. This abrupt, and inexplicable disappearance act is what saved Reno's routed command. This leads us to the obvious question, what miracle occurred that resulted in a much needed respite for the Reno Conclave? It was the appearance od Custer's five companies on Nye-Cartwright Ridge, and his subsequent "mock" attack at Ford "B". It was this intrusion, dangerously close to the village non-combantants that sent the warriors into a frenzy of apprehension over the new danger that faced their women and children.
Support may also come from a flank position, which it did in this particular case. It need not, in all situations, come from the rear. Reno graduated from West Point also and, one must assume that he was taught this basic, military tactic. It is my guess, as their are allegations that Reno may have been intoxicated during this incident, that he panicked when he did not see the support behind them. This, of course, led to the hasty withdrawal from the skirmish line to the timbers. While your assumption that Custer would have been court martialed had he survived may be valid, I don't think it would have been for failure to support Reno. |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 18 2004 : 2:15:13 PM
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Joseph,
Custer's plan to coordinate his own assault with Reno's began accordingly. Custer's overconfidence and, therefore, lack of military intelligence (possibly he had it, didn't heed it) was a quick recipe for disaster.
Custer observed Reno's initial advance before he headed down Medicine Tail Coulee, possibly thinking the battle plan was on schedule. I doubt that Custer ever knew Reno's charge was stopped dead in its tracks well south of the encampment. Reno's charge, as I've read and as described by those defending, was crushed at the first volley of Indian gunfire. Within minutes after retreating to the tree cover, his troop was away in a panicked retreat, surrounded by overwhelming numbers. My point being that all this happened very quickly and very decisively.
The Indians whipping Reno weren't even needed at the north end, where equally overwhelming numbers and firepower did the same and worse to Custer. Those who departed Reno and traversed the three miles, or so, to Custer's fight arrived far too late for anything except mop up.
Yes, I'd agree that Custer did support Reno. But, support what? The problem is, Custer wouldn't have known that Reno was already whipped or that the two-pronged assault simply no longer existed.
In some of the discussion here, there seems to be a premise that, had Custer done this or Reno done that--or Benteen, that the outcome would have been different. Custer couldn't have defeated Crazy Horse and Gall with all 660 of is column, used any way he chose. I don't think he could have won there with twice that many.
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JakeW
Private
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 18 2004 : 2:27:27 PM
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Well, I guess I'll toss somethin in here. Do I believe that Benteen violated a direct order? Yes I do.
"Big Village, come quick, bring packs. PS. Bring Packs"
Here's what I think, my opinion if you will so that it's not slandered like so many others I have seen in this topic.
I do not believe that Benteen initially thought that Custer was in a desperate situation. Here he was, off roaming through valley's when the other two battalions had been sent off to do the fighting. I'm sure he was a bit pissed. I believe that when he got the order he believed that he would probably be involved in mopping up what was left of the defeated hostiles.
If he had hauled butt like he should have, I believe that there is a possibility that he could have been able to aid Custer's detachment. As it happened, Benteen coming in just ahead of the pack train shows that he was not hurrying along at any respectable pace. The pack train had so many problems with their mules that they were CRAWLING along.
What would have happened to Reno? Who can say? Hey might have held out just as they did with Benteen. They more than likely would have had they not fled helter skelter across the river and up the hill. In which case I doubt Custer and Benteen would have been sitting on a hill top doing their best to ignore the sounds of firing from down the valley.
When Kanipe was sent back with the first message, that should have been a huge clue. When Martin arrived it should have had the effect on Benteen as if being hit by a cattle prod.
Jake |
"We've Caught 'em Napping Boys!" - Custer's Last Phrase |
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JakeW
Private
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 18 2004 : 2:32:59 PM
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Heavy Runner, I beg to dffer on the subject that the 600 some troppers of the 7th couldn't have held their own in the fight.
Held together, and not split into detachments, they should have been able to whip the warriors coming out of the valley. Held together, in orderly fashion, I don't think it should have been a problem. The problem is when you start getting one on one individual combat going between the indians and troopers. Here the troopers would be at a serious disadvantage.
Jake |
"We've Caught 'em Napping Boys!" - Custer's Last Phrase |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 18 2004 : 3:06:04 PM
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Jake,
I reckon we agree to disagree. Nothing exists to convince me that Custer could have won at Little Bighorn against Crazy Horse and Gall. After Fetterman, Rosebud and a few other incidents, Custer should have known: "These guys are good."
It took only a portion, perhaps a small one, of the fighters at hand to rout Reno. A larger portion of available fighters wiped out Custer's command in the time it takes to eat lunch. Sioux and Cheyenne, the best light cavalry in the world, were well armed, highly motivated and, defending their wives, children and elders, very determined. They had more men, better weapons and better leadership that Custer's combined command. To me, it's a no-brainer.
Had they felt it worth the effort, the Indians could have wiped out the overall command--to the last man.
Militarily or otherwise, Custer was out-manned and overmatched. |
Bob Bostwick |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 18 2004 : 3:08:43 PM
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Can the Indians at the Garry Owen loop even SEE Nye Cartwright, given that it's two miles or more away and there are bluffs between? I can't recall. Further, Reno had already been defeated and was on Reno Hill when the Sioux left. Wiggs distorts time, again, to arrive at a desired goal.
Reno didn't know that Custer, far from trying to support him, was - like Benteen had when needed on behalf of the horses - moving at a walk for the period before Reno's charge, during the charge, and for a while after it. Then he actually stopped to see, for the first time, what he'd ordered Reno into. If you're condemning Benteen for his periodic pace, why not Custer for his? Custer is somehow exempt. When Custer did get around to formulating a plan and acting on it, it was about an hour after Reno had been in combat.
That's support? Custer exculpators, led by Gray, say Custer was walking because he was waiting for Benteen. Unlikely, since he could either see Benteen or not and he had units under fire. More likely, as we know, he was walking because his horses were pretty well shot, and he didn't realize the distance to a possible crossing.
At least two Custer horses collapsed and their riders walked back to Reno. Martin said his horse was exhausted before he started back to Benteen. Reno, as you know, watered his horses again at the LBH before starting the charge and was in better shape than the others. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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JakeW
Private
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 18 2004 : 3:38:02 PM
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I believe one of the men what Thompson, and the other was Gustav Korn. I could be wrong of course, but that's what I recall.
Yes I do agree, Custer's horses were indeed shot. Benteen's break for water did help out his situation quite a bit. After watering his animals, what could have prevented him from high tailing it for Custer? It wasn't Reno, he wasn't hurrying anywere when he ran into the blubbering Major.
Jake |
"We've Caught 'em Napping Boys!" - Custer's Last Phrase |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 18 2004 : 5:17:04 PM
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At the morass, miles before getting the two couriers, Benteen rode as he felt expedient, and wisely as it turns out. Earlier in the day, Custer slowed Benteen down because he thought Benteen's pace too fast.
In fact, Benteen's pace over the ground both groups covered was about the same and in the same time despite his somewhat longer journey. He walked from the morass but he rode to the sound of firing, something Custer did not do EVEN WHEN CUSTER KNEW HIS MEN WERE IN COMBAT BELOW. Custer maintained the walk.
Are you imagining Benteen should have taken the trot all the way to the flat? Run? Ever seen that ground? Reno and Custer didn't do it. If Custer had waited for Benteen - or sent scouts instead - and the 7th had watered on the LBH and charged against the village south to north as a unit, whatever might have happened probably could not have been worse than what did.
What happened was that Custer with 700 men tried to do what Sibley or whatever his name was with 2200 could not do either against many of the same Indians 12 years before in Mnst. at Kildeer Mt., although Sibley kept the pressure up for the following days. The Indians attacked the army, artillery and all, and the village didn't break for it till the last minute. Obviously they escaped, but were driven out of Minnesotta. Village of about 8k, it's now estimated. Comparable, surely. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 18 2004 : 8:11:51 PM
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Heavyrunner, excellent perspective and well thought out. I can not, and will not dispute what you say as it is highly probable that you are correct. Perhaps Custer may have found that three times his actual number of troops may not have been enough. After all, a similar number of Indians soundly thrashed General Cook on the Rosebud some days earlier. However (and you knew this was coming-smile)I believe that Custer knew of Reno's abrupt halt and dismount into skirmish. Evidence shows that General Custer made two observations from two different high points. The first observation occurred on the bluff's later occupied by Reno. It was here that Trumpeter Martini testified that Custer made a comment that basically said, we've caught them napping Boys! Martini further stated that they saw nothing of Reno's charge at that point. There is some dissagreement about the location of the second observation, it may have been Weir's Point or Sharpshooter Hill. I choose Sharpshooter Hill for reasons I won't elaborate on just now. Receiving the orders to "Come On", at a bend in Cedar Coulee, Martini doubled back on the back trail arriving, once again, on the bluffs. It was here that he stated he observed Reno's men hotly engaged and falling back to the timber. Thus far, you are absolutely correct, Custer could not have know about this vital information. However, stationed on Weir's Point at that very moment, at the behest of Custer, where two scouts, Mitch Bouyer and Curely Head. While Martini briefly observed the Reno's fall back on the bluffs, Mitch and Curley observed the very same scene from Weir's Point. Realizing that this horrific turn of events must be relayed to the General, the stalwart scouts rushed towards his position, intercepting him as he descended Medicine trail Coulee. Faced with this totally unpredictable information, Custer realized that something had to be done to relieve Reno. It was then that he chose to committ Companies "F" and "E" to ford "B" to relieve the beleaguered commander. His plan worked like a charm, in fact, it worked so well that Custer found himself facing the entire Sioux, Northern, and Southern Cheyenne Nations without support. As I mentioned before, a similar amount of warriors defeated Cook earlier, however, the loss of life on both sides was extremely low. After fighting for hours neither side sustained heavy losses. Why were the losses of Custer's command do devestatingly high. Further more, the solitary time, during this battle, a commander forced his men to skirmish and stay in position they were highly successful. They drove hundreds of embolden warriors back after their heated charge from Weir's Point. This feat was accomplished by Lt. Godfrey at the retreat from Weir's Point. Had he not done so, the entire command may have been wiped out. The difference between the battle of the Big Horn and the battle of the Rosebud is this. In one battle the soldiers fled away, in the other they did not. There is an extremely true, truism in Indian warfare. As a 50% Sioux, on my mothers side, I do not hesitate to inform you of that truism, you do not turn your back on an Indian. From birth, the Indian is taught to survive a harsh enviroment by sometimes learning to be a predator of men. Babes in arms are taught to not cry out for to do so may bring about the demise of the entire village. When Reno loss his head, this only served to inflame the passions of the warriors who believed that their
God was on their side this day. They were right. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 18 2004 : 10:16:22 PM
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I suppose it was only a matter of time before racial profiling was inserted by those who write as if they were there, know what the hearts of the participants were feeling, and can move the entire Southern Cheyenne tribe north - something previously unknown to scholars or the Southern Cheyennes themselves - for this battle. Of course, there's more, so much more.
The cultural insights read like The Big Book of Indian Life, Reader's Digest Edition for children. Children in remedial class.
But its the summations of Custer's genius that are most touching. Sacrifice five companies to no point to save three which had already saved themselves by holding cavalry stationary on bad land intentionally till destroyed. A Coen Bros. movie in there. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - May 19 2004 : 04:54:02 AM
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Hi Joe and all.
As I'm in a different time zone I feel a little like Benteen arriving just a tiny bit too late to influence this massacre.
By the way Joe the name is "Wild I" not "Wild One"---the nick name for I troop commanded by Keogh a heavy drinking womanizer.He was born and educated not too far from where I live.I descovered his signature on a document we have here where I'm employed.[story for another day]
Wild one, I dissagree with you on one salient point, Custer did support Reno as promised. His last words to Reno were, and I paraphrase: Take your batttalion and try and bring them to battle and I will support you. At the time, Custer believe that the Indians were on the "jump." Reno, understandably , assummed that the promised support would come from his rear.
There are two assumptions in the above both of them wrong.
The amount of "assuming" that went on that day was extraordinary. Was Custer not capable of giving a precise order and making his intentions clear?
Yes Benteen did disobey an order he admitted as much himself.He was ordered to go valley hunting.If he had done just that Martini would not have found him.He assumed that he would be better employed back with the main body.He assumed right.
Having got the order he assumed the best action was to assist Reno.Debateable.
Weir's 2i/c assumed Weir had permission to ride towards the sound of the firing.He assumed wrong.
Reno and Benteen assumed that Custer had retreated leaving them to fend for themselves.They assumed wrong.
An attacking force needs an numerical advantage of 3 to 1.The opposite was the case here and throw in your "assumptions" and you get first surprise followed by confusion and then desaster.And no-one else but Custer is to blame for that.
Slan
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - May 19 2004 : 05:29:22 AM
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Wild
Custer committed Reno's unit to attack without knowing how he would support him or how he would coordinate his attack with Reno's.When Custer was attacked by Crazy horse he was going away from Reno.
How do you know this? Maybe he had a plan in his mind. He surely had as, I think you too must admit that General Custer was not an idiot. Greatest researcher refers to that as "The plan he may had in mind". He surely had a plan and how to support Reno. The same things I said of Benteen, could be said for Custer. He was'nt a killer. In the end, he was not going away from Reno, he tried to reach him and was repulsed, because of Reno retreat. I don't understand why Custer's men sacrifice must be less value of Reno's men sacrifice. And also their moral, their needing help. Nobody ask himself how Custer himself with his men could have been demoralizated?
Reno carried out his orders and attacked.Custer left him to face the entire village on his own.
When Custer [with 5 troops]tried to attack he was driven back in panic.Why blame Reno for retreating?Most of his officers praised him for his action in halting the charge.
Just to the moment he retreated, he carryed his orders. I mean when he came up to Reno hill. You must remember then that when Reno start his retreat, coming out from the woods, indians, retreated too, thinking they was attacked. But then they saw Reno's men shoulders and they started to shot again...Nobody said it was the entire village. Custer took the first way then to go down, "medicine" triying to supporting Reno. If he had an airplain, maybe, could jump down from the hills, but at that time no aiplains . Repulsed and retreat are two words different also for me, that I talk a bad english. Drive back in panic, that's not true. All the bodyes, fallen in order on the way, and the circle on the top of the hill; that was not panic; and indians too, if they tell about panic or cowardice, they talk it about Reno an his soldiers, "killing them simply when they're running as killing bisons". It's also the way they retretead that's bad. Much soldiers perished for that silly running ordered by Reno. Moylan witnessed to have tryed in all the ways to help blessed people stopping the running frightened soldiers, and Dr Porter ask:"For God sake, men, don't escape!There are a lot of death and blessed soldiers, we must go back and take them". Varnum also criticized Reno, told him that was pure madness to retreating that way, undefended. Reno answered "It's me the commander here". It's enough to add Charley Reynolds dead: he shout bad words to the soldiers running and then remaining alone, come back to the wood; they killed his horse so he front a lot of indians alone. When he was found, they count 60 shell case around him.(Hardorff, Miller, Brininstool).
Weir set off for Custer almost immediately and got no further than Weir point----why?
It was custer's decision to deploy his forces out of supporting distance of each other.
Why Weir did'nt go over Weir point? Simply answer: Benteen and Reno did'nt wanted that he go towards Custer(here are contrasting versions, but Weir said that he gone without permission, just Reno and Benteen tell the contrary)And he start withouth order with his company; that make loosing more time. Was not immediately. Reno came later. And almost in the same time fire ceased.
It was custer's decision to deploy his forces out of supporting distance of each other.
There were orders and misunderstanding that was not fault of Custer. Was not the distance the problem but some..behavior.
It was Custer's decision to launch an uncordinated attack without an overall plan.
It was not uncordinated, and without plan. As always, you underestimate Custer's mind.
It was Custer's decision not to take extra ammo.
Ammo normally lay on the rearguard, that's normally. And He was not the rearguard. He had to be the most light as possible. Packs train are slow.
Custer's handling of his troops doomed them.Reno and Benteen faced with the same difficulty as Custer saved theirs.
Reno and Benteen had each other to save their skin. Reno retreated. Custer had only himself, and so his men, and he die on the field, while other was questioning if it was right to go or not before the arrival of ammo.
DARK
why is this assumed to be a lie and for what purpose, given he wrote this to his WIFE right after the battle?Just asked.
About Garibaldi, he had a better opinion of his men. And had throgh people who came from the factorys, that was speaking just dialect.
I don't speak about water anymore, not because i've forget it, but I have one source that tell about a second stop after Martini. I know that's new. But it' useless to use it if it's not knew, as I've seen from your posts. May find other sources that proof this is not a lie. Then I will come back with my water.
You take Benteen's outrage against Martini as the rant of a bigot against Italians, which I suspect affects your various conclusions about him and the battle
Believe me: no. I don't care if Benteen don't like italians. If I had to get angry about such things...wel I had to hate much americans and other countries, that think italians are Pizza maccheroni o sole mio. And that is falsh as if I would say that americans are just pistolero. I love America instead. And I love american people and history.
At Little big horn, drunkness may could have been a problem. Do you remember the Northwestern christian advocate of 7 september 1904? Were written: "To Arthur Edwards, who knew him well, and continued his faithful friend, Major Reno often unburdened his heart, and in one occasion in deep sorrow said that his strange actions (at LBH) were due to drink, and drink caused his ultimately downfall".
With this I don't mean to tell Benteen was drunk. Of course. I think too He was a good soldier. And I would'nt be so critic with him if I did'nt think this way about him. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - May 19 2004 : 06:54:15 AM
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When Custer was attacked by Crazy horse he was going away from Reno.
How do you know this?
Everything I'v read indicates that Custer was headed North away from Reno's possition and the evidence on the ground would confirm this.
I think you too must admit that General Custer was not an idiot.
Everything he did that day was idiotic.On the other thread"did Custer do anything right" no-one including yourself Lorenzo has come up with anything he did right.
He surely had a plan and how to support Reno.
If he had a plan he told no-one about it.
Now you have not refuted any of the points I have made and most of what you are now posting is just going over old stuff.I don't want to be rude [I have enjoyed the discussion]but I'm tempted to suggest that at this stage you are using this board to improve your English and not our understanding of the battle.Perhaps Joseph might be more helpful.
Slan
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - May 19 2004 : 08:33:05 AM
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Old stuff? Well. A great part of Custer movements was just supposed, but you know that him was doing idiotic things. I would really like to get your crystal ball. If evidences was so clear as you said, we would be not here to discussing and lot of historian would'nt be here today trying to find out, everybody with his respectable opinion, what's happened. Simply I don't answer to other topics because one topic, with my bad english, is just enough - it require a very great effort to me and much time - and I'm also busy with my work and all the rest; in the end, I think it is useless to continue writing anything there where you've just condemned Custer.
Evidences that you like proof what you like. there are no sureness. Custer goes down to medicine Couley, this was not going away from Reno. This was a movement towards Reno. If later he was repulsed because Reno retreat free great part of indians, that was not his fault.
I refuted all points you wrote. Anyway you're too it's old stuff, the same old harsh things that I'm listening after years against Custer. We're both old then.
Just sorry that you think I Might improve my english here, writing in one forum. Well, it means that i can make a good pair with Custer as we're both idiots, me and him. Oh, wait...with us I see Godfrey, Edgerly,Carter, Ghent, Walt Whitman, Rosser and others. A lot of.
I'm here to learn more about the Battle, that's sure, but I have my ideas
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If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - May 19 2004 : 09:19:36 AM
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Hi Lorenzo
I would really like to get your crystal ball
Don't need one ,just apply logic.
If evidences was so clear as you said, we would be not here to discussing and lot of historian would'nt be here today trying to find out
The evidence is clear that the manner in which Custer managed his regiment that day would have only one result --desaster.
Simply I don't answer to other topics because one topic, with my bad english, is just enough - it require a very great effort to me and much time - and I'm also busy with my work and all the rest;
OK humble apologies
later he was repulsed because Reno retreat free great part of indians, that was not his fault.
Reno retreated because Custer ordered him into an uncordinated attack on a village the size of which he had no idea of and against an unknown number of hostiles.Custer must bear responsibility for this.He must bear responsibility for Benteen's position which was way out of supporting distance.
At the begining of the attack the different units of the regiment were in the position Custer ordered them to be in.Because of this Custer had no control over these units.Custer could only react to a situation he had totally underestimated.He simply had no control over what had happened.
Why did Custer put himself in a position where he needed the assistance of Benteen who he had sent away on a valley hunt?
If Custer had handed over command to his horse things could not have been handled worse.
Slan
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Benteen's order
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