| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - May 13 2004 : 12:25:17 AM
|
Mr. Wiggs, despite the purple prose, virtually everything you write is wrong.
Time did not affect history's perception of certain issues: Reno WAS a drunk (most of them were), Benteen DID hate Custer, Moylan did cry according to Benteen, and Godfrey might have been pompous. Custer was arguably NOT a devoted husband by his own and Cheyenne descriptions and long absences. Perhaps his wife was not faithful either, and with Weir according to Utley. If he/she was or wasn't, so what? West Point wasn't all that prestigious back then; in general, neither was the Army.
The truth has NOT arisen (how would we know if it had?)
It is not ironic that Boston Custer made a shorter journey at an earlier time, nor do we know the shape in which he arrived, or if Custer was thrilled by his presence which was due, by the way, to desertion of his post. Martin's horse was shot during that interconnected journey, and he is said to have suggested Indians were attacking Custer when he left. Who knows?
You keep suggesting someone is calling Custer incompetent and a buffoon. Who? Not me. Not Larson. Who? That's a forty year old discredited straw dog.
You still haven't admitted that you accused Benteen of allowing soldiers to be slaughtered, and that you then denied you had accused him, nor have you provided information on how, if true, he could have done something about it. You're actually the only one making the baseless accusations.
Nobody has made Custer a scapegoat. He was the losing commander, is all, and therefore responsible. He had a good run. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
  |
|
|
lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
 Posted - May 13 2004 : 03:54:59 AM
|
I ask forgiveness for my bad english, but something I want say: Custer was really and is still today a scapegoat for much people, first, for who had something to hide, then, for who hated his person and then again for who did'nt accept that defeat of little big horn. I'm sorry that Mr Dark Cloud can argue that Custer was not a devoted husband. Maybe, between malicious voices and loving letters of the two interested guys, we would have to choose the second as a proof - I remember someone said also that Custer had a child from Monasetah, and much books said he was an as...for this reason; unfortunately nobody of them, go deep in the story to discover the child was born only 2 0r 3 months later the General knew the indian girl - at least about nature and how much time a woman need to get a child born we have the certainty.
Custer was a devoted husband and Libbie was a devoted wife - we have enough proofs for it, not last her pain, that follow her for all the life, and her writings as this, founded through her papers:
FROM JUNE 25 TO JULY 5 1876 (I translate from an italian version)
Tha God could have mercy for the wife that wait at home
with purple eyes and lily cheeks
Dreaming that old love dream
While her lover walks through heaven.
I agree completely with mr Wiggs.
Mr Dark Cloud, you can say what you want, but the acts of Benteen (I'm looking to him not for all his life, but just for what he did on Little Big Horn)that 25 june was all but sure was'nt the acts of a man pressed to obey to the urgent orders received and help someone in difficulty. Water the horses it's normal, but it is'nt normal in a situation of emergency like that to stop 20 minuts to water horses, and needing the double of time Custer need previous to make the same way (and he was not running)while he knows that every minuts it's precious as his Commander is engaging a battle and need help. And Packs. He also omitted to perceive McDougall of the request to be quick. I'm not the only one not to share Benteen acts, as an exemple, Captain Weir and much others of the 7th criticized him and Reno for they was standing without helping Custer. And so on...
Mr Dark Cloud says: "He was the losing commander, is all, and therefore responsible". He was the loosing commander, yes, but died like an hero, as his men done too, and this call just respect, admiration for all of them. Responsible? Could be true just if a Commander have all his troopers that obey scrupulously to his orders,and that orders bring to death his regiment, but that was not the case of Little Big Horn.
Please forgive my english... |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
|
|
|
wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - May 13 2004 : 05:00:40 AM
|
Bon Giorno caro amico Lorenzo.Come va la vita?
Just a couple of points in relation to your post on the actions of Benteen.
The message he recieved did emphasize the importance of the packs--ps "bring packs"this committed him to waiting for them to arrive.As regards the watering of the horses he had just completed a useless reconnaissance of 20 miles.Your fellow countryman Giovanni Martini the last messenger from Custer did not tell Benteen that he had seen Reno fighting for his life but he did tell him that he heard Custer shout "hurrah boys we've got them".This messenger conveyed no sense of crisis.At that point in time there was nothing that indicated that Benteen should have done anything differently.
Slan |
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 13 2004 : 08:51:59 AM
|
Lorenzo,
I can forgive the English, which is better than my Italian, but you're naive.
Mrs. Custer may or may not have loved her husband, but she was a widow and her stock in trade was the public memory of her husband, which she flogged to some profit to her own death. Custer had died in debt, having blown her inheritance and his earnings, leaving her in debt. He also gambled a lot.
You state as true pure conjecture. How do you know Custer died 'like a hero?' Perhaps he begged for his life, sobbed, wet his pants. Nobody knows. How can you claim you do?
As to the Cheyenne child, there was rumor of a whitish child born later, called "Yellow Bird." Who knows? Who cares? I don't, but if Custer is presented as a "devoted" husband there are issues to be put to rest.
Benteen took twice as long as Custer to do what?
Your source for Captain Weir and 'many others' of the Seventh criticizing Benteen is what?
Twenty minutes to water horses is "normal?" How many horses at how small a facility? You fabricate criteria. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 13 2004 : 9:37:49 PM
|
Brent, you bring up an excellent point. Had Custer not sent Benteen to the left he would have been certainly acted in some other military capacity with a quicker response time. While we can not presently surmize the role his three companies would have played, he would have been there, at some point, to assist Custer. Like a chess game wherein one move precipitates another, we must ask ourselves why Benteen was sent to the left in the first place. In hindsight, it is not difficult to rationalize this movement as a terrible blunder on Custer's part. After all everyone in his command died. What would possess him to separate his command without knowing the desposition of his enemy. Therein lies the rub, not knowing the exact location of the village, under orders to seek and destroy it, stung by his almost failure at the Battle of the Wa****a, he was forced to initiate a recognizance-in-force to gather that pertinent information. When Custer defeated Black Kettle at the Wa****a, he did not realize that this village was at the end of a string of villages that strung out for seven miles or more. Upon realizing his delimma, he hastily got the hell out of Dodge. It was this very same error that he desired to prevent at the Battle of the Little Big Horn.
He sent Benteen to the left to prevent the possible escape of Indians up the Big Horn Valley, and to engage them if necessary and drive them back towards his position. It is perfectly natural for modern man to think his fear of escaping Indians when thousands were waiting for him to be sadly silly? How ludricous! In retrospect, it was not. Historically Indians would not stand up to a calvary charge. Not because they were afraid, which they were not, but because they felt it was foolish to do so. Native Americans had no standing army like European nations. Every soldier was a husband, father, brother, or son. Every warrior's death was a tremendous burden for the tribe and, that meant some would have starved to death or suffered in other ways. Custer, and believe me, every military superior of his era, erroneously belived that the Indians would run at the first sight of the 7th. Calvery. That is why Custer's order to Benteen seems so odd to the modern man's way of thinking. At that place in time it was a reasonable and intelligent decision. Prevent the dispersment of the village, round them up, and return them to the reservation. Today we have the luxury of hindsight in our judgement. Its a pity that Custer did not.
|
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 13 2004 : 10:06:36 PM
|
| Dear Lorenzo G., you do not have to appologize for your English because I believe you speak with a natural insight and beauty that is to be admired. What most impressed me about your statement is the honesty of your feelings and your courage to speak in a forum where you do not excel, yet you stand tall and speak with committment and pride. There will be a few who will say that I commend you solely because we are somewhat in accord, they will be in error. I respect you for your ability to see the other side of the coin, to think outside of the box, to be able to rise above the common perspectives of this battle and realize that fault is not the issue. No one man involved in this battle is at fault. Could things have turned out differently, of course! We will never know how because it is to late. To the Individual who stated that your English was better than his Italian I whole heartedly agree. As for hi calling you naive, I dissagree. You Sir, unlike those who would chatize you, know your facts. The following is true, many of Benteen's command grumbled and balked at his time at the morass where he watered his horses. The troopers wanted to respond to the sounds of fire. Only they who have not spent the time to study this situation to its fullest could have made such an insensitive and boorish statement regarding your alleged naivete. I salute you my Italian friend. |
|
|
|
lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - May 14 2004 : 04:20:03 AM
|
To Dark Cloud
You state as true pure conjecture. How do you know Custer died 'like a hero?'
Dear Mr Dark Cloud,
If mine are conjecture, yours too are. As the greatest part of the battle was told and not seen. But, I think we know all enough Custer to be certain He did all what was possible to do, and like an hero. He never been afraid about death and always fight in first lines (civil war etc are proofs, and his courage was consolidated and never put in argument. Then I don't see why he must have changing his well known behavior for his last battle. We don't know and we can only imagine from witness the modality, but we can be sure that he die fighting with honour.
Mrs. Custer may or may not have loved her husband, but she was a widow and her stock in trade was the public memory of her husband, which she flogged to some profit to her own death. Custer had died in debt, having blown her inheritance and his earnings, leaving her in debt. He also gambled a lot.
I don't think to be naive. Maybe you can call me romantic . But also the relationship between Libbie and George was never put in argument. They love each other very much. Debt or not, Libbie could answer to you, with a letter she wrote, as many others, to her husband where she asserts to prefere living in a small tepee that in one big house just to be close to her husband.
The poem I copyed, however, was not a public one, but find through her private papers. So, we have a lot of other proofs of her pure devotion. Of course I don't mean her books, but private letters (that I had the luck to see), private life, witness and account made by friends and not of Libbie.
I don't, but if Custer is presented as a "devoted" husband there are issues to be put to rest
Well I don't agree for the same reasons I explained for Libbie love. They are just voices, malicious voices.
Benteen took twice as long as Custer to do what
After Martin's message, Benteen hold a low speed,just a little bit faster,(Du Bois, 177) He needed the double of time of Custer in order to cover the same path the General covered previous.
Your source for Captain Weir and 'many others' of the Seventh criticizing Benteen is what?
There are many statements about disagree of Weir and some officers, for example Godfrey account, or Martini's story, or Whittaker("Weir fretting and fuming")or Wm O. Taylor ("Reno proved incompetent and Benteen showed his indifference - I will not use the uglier words that have often been in my mind. Both failed Custer and he had to fight it out alone")and in the book very well made of Raffaele d'Aniello "Little Big Horn, Sioux against Custer" the author make mention of officiers growing angry for they hear Custer fire but nor Reno or Benteen decide to move. I've written to the author asking if he recall the names of that officiers and the biblio sources.As soon as I have the answer I will communicate here to you.
for wild
Just this is a reason: an order it's an order e you must obey it since this order don't go against human moral. He had to bring packs and be quick. It was not a confused order, he had not to make philosophical thinking on it; he had just to come on with packs and support the attack. He don't. That's the fact.
For Mr Wiggs
Dear Mr Wiggs, thank you. I really appreciate your words. And I hope we should hear each other also by private mail for I would need some news about the Battle that your experience could certainly give to me.
Still thanks! |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
|
|
|
wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - May 14 2004 : 06:24:24 AM
|
Hi Lorenzo
What does the order "come on" mean?
1/Join up with the Custer Battalion?
2/Join up with the Benteen Battalion?
3/Join up with the Pack train?
4/Attack village independently?
What information has Benteen got about the dispositions of the various units of the regiment or their condition when Martini arrives---none.His orders are to bring the packs and this means waiting for them which he does.
He then does carry out his order and "comes on"to find Reno fighting for his life.
Now just supposing his interpretation of Custer's order was to join up with him.He ignores the pleading of the 2i/c of the regiment and abandons Reno and his defeated and wounded comrades to the Indians and sets out to find Custer.Reno is over run within 10 minutes by Gaul and hundreds of victorious Indians who now turn their attention to Benteen's slow moving column.The Indians on fresh mounts easly overtake Benteen and attacking from the rear and flanks wipe him out.
They then pour onto the Custer field joining in the total obliteration of the 7th cavalry.
If Benteen had tried to join up with Custer it would have done nomore than delay the enevitable by 30 minutes at the cost of the entire regiment.
Slan agus beannacht |
|
|
|
Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 14 2004 : 06:51:18 AM
|
Joe:
Benteens order dosen't seem "odd" to me--Custer clearly had to find out was was (or wasn't, as it turned out) in that area. And you are quite right--Custer was expecting a "running" village, not a fighting village, so indeed his actions certainly are promted on that supposition.
It's the timing of Benteen's "scout" that always makes me wonder--he's sent off just around the time the attack is being planned on the "big" village. And I often wonder what would have happened if he HAD run into a large band (force) of hostiles?? By sending his entire command, Custer must have thought that could happen. But if Benteen had gotten into trouble,would Custer and Reno have been able to help him?? Not likely. Think of it--a message FROM Benteen to Custer--"Big Village. Come Quick. In danger of losing packs".
Oh well-hindsight is always better than foresight, they say. I just think Custer could have learned all he needed to know about that part of the valley by sending a few scouts. He certainly had plenty. It wasn't a great distance and the info would have been available in timely fashion. Had they spotted hostiles, Benteen could still be dispatched. No hostiles, Benteen now is part of the main effort.
Anyway--just my humble (if wrong!!) opinion. Now that I've read (thanks to the info on this site) virtually all of the essential Custer books, at least now my opinion is no longer based on those few general information books I'd previously read.
I guess the old saying still applies--"A thousand different experts-a thousand different theories" |
|
|
|
lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - May 14 2004 : 08:45:28 AM
|
| As said, I don't see all this reflections. Just a simple order. What does it means to eat an apple? you can say that means to eat it all or to eat it a piece or all and letting the core. Or to eat the apple later you have peeled. We are trasforming a simple act in a cervellotic reflection. What I mean: Come on be quick, it means that you must be quick. The order is so clear. Benteen have not to think what hell Custer was thinking about the village, he had just to come with packs and his troopers. I can say that: if I was him I would have sent an orderly (right to say so?) to communicate with Mc Dougall orMathey - he did'nt - the new and urgent orders, and then I would have gone with fire on my feet toward the General. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
|
|
|
lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - May 14 2004 : 08:52:24 AM
|
Must join this: His orders are to bring the packs and this means waiting for them which he does.
That's not true. He started without wait packs and saying anything to Mc Dougall or Mathey, and then stopped to Reno and there the packs arrives. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
|
|
|
Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 14 2004 : 1:51:33 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by wILD I
What information has Benteen got about the dispositions of the various units of the regiment or their condition when Martini arrives---none.His orders are to bring the packs and this means waiting for them which he does.
Why would the Cooke note require Benteen to "wait" for the packs? And what makes you think he did?
R. Larsen
|
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 14 2004 : 7:26:44 PM
|
Why was Custer 'forced' to send a reconossaince in force? Why not just a scout?
If Benteen 'brought' the packs, how fast could he be?
Would a rational command order the packs to rush ahead, letting dropped boxes lay, and in essence opening a share program of ammo with the enemy? Hours before they'd gone bananas over a few bread boxes that were dropped in the night.
Once encumbered with wounded and the packs, what offensive moves were open to Benteen and Reno given the proximity to the village and the condition of the command? Offensive moves with plausible goal, I mean, given the enemy was not running and the command couldn't hit anything. As it turned out, they had barely enough to protect them in the heart of enemy territory, much less utilize them in sustained offensive against a numerically superior enemy.
Any feet of fire acrobatics should have been utilized by Custer to return to his command. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 14 2004 : 8:37:28 PM
|
Dear Dark Cloud,
I am indebted to you for your infinite wisdom and insight into a personality quirk of mine, my perpensity to speak in "Purple Prose" (Whatever that means) and your astute ability to discern that everything I've said, thus far, is completely wrong. As I have expounded a fair share of information to the forum in a relatively short time, you would have thought that perhaps I could have accidently gotten something right. You can imagine my dissapointment. Alas, 'tis my misfortune. However, I have been blessed with a knowledgable, precociouse, historian, as you sir, to help me maintain my equilibrium and not stray to far down the path of mis-information.
For example, I foolishly referred to the West Point Academy as a prestigious institution. You sir, quickly reminded me that, "West Point was not all that prestigious back then." Forgive me if I ask you a simple question, which seat did you occupy in Custer's class to make such a personal observation? I do not mean to be sarcastic regarding your age. Perhaps you could direct me to a resource book that stated, "West Point was not all that prestigious back then. Failing those two options, perhaps a seance would achieve the desired results.
That reminds me of another example of my ignorance when discussing this story. I refer to the incident wherein the young Boston Custer was able to reach the General by his lonesome when Benteen was unable to do so with three company of troopers. You, kind sir, correctly pointed out, that,"We do not know what shape in which he arrived." Now that I have been set straight by your infinite wisdom, I will immediately pull out the research papers that clearly stated that the trumpeteer Martini waived at the smiling Boston as he cheerfully rode to the head of Cedar Coulee, less than five minutes from the General's position. Every scholar, that I'm aware of, are of the opinion that Boston arrived safetly. That is why his body was located on Custer Hill rather that any where else. Had he been waylaid or wounded elsewhere, the probability of his reaching Custer is severely deminished. But, Hey, what do they know.
Oh yes, you also stated that Boston was in "desertion of duty" by leaving the back pack. I assume you made that assumption because he did not receive orders to sally forth. Boston's occupation on this excursion was as a civilian guide, therefore he was not a member of the military and, ergo, was not in dereliction of duty. Oh dear, there I go again trying to think when I have you to do that for me.
Finally, and I appologize for the great amount of redundancy, I presented options that Benteen may have taken. Nothing more, nothing less.
Kind Sir, green is a color, water is wet, ignorance is blessed. I eagerly await your comments about the above statements telling me that they too are all wrong. |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on May 14 2004 8:39:55 PM |
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 14 2004 : 11:13:21 PM
|
Both General Grant and David Crockett in their different eras suggested that West Point be abolished. No other institution of ours at taxpayer expense has provided such dangerous traitors to the United States. The class of 1861 alone provided great discussion during and after the Civil War, and in 1863 Senator Wade of Ohio offered up a bill to get rid of WP. As late as the 1970's, West Point was called "...an under-graduate scholarship school without many scholars or any great motivation for learning..." That's from General George Lincoln, a Nixon advisor, and on the WP faculty. That sound like a prestigious institution to you?
Because everyone had a relative in the Army during the CW, the various and numerous incompetencies of the Army itself were well known, but the volunteers were highly regarded then. Winning helped.
But the Army was without question not beloved in the 1870's, with the GAR bleeding the nation. It had only 25k soldiers, and was no longer a career choice of many, reflected by the low quality of recruits (almost all immigrant) and mass desertions, Custer's unit especially. Not a secret, well discussed in journals and histories.
Boston Custer was laughingly a scout, although never used as such, and was assigned to the train. Only his status as brother allowed him to go where he wished, when he wished. If any other member of the quartermaster corps had done that, it wouldn't have been tolerated.
Every 'scholar' can suppose and assume all they want about Boston's health when he reached Custer. They don't know. I don't know. Martin arrived at Benteen's front with a shot horse he hadn't noticed in his rush, apparently acquired in and around the time he and his bad English met Boston. We don't know what condition Boston arrived in.
You still haven't addressed your two fabrications: that Benteen deliberately failed to save soldiers being slaughtered, followed by your denial you ever suggested that. You weren't presenting the 'options' of Benteen. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
Rocky76
Corporal
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 14 2004 : 11:58:18 PM
|
| Rants are good Dark Cloud, they force us to look at things closer. Rants, however, must be backed up by fact...facts are something that someone said, did, or thought, as supported by the written record. If the written record is used to support the basis of a "Rant", it must be confirmed by documentation, unless, of course, the argument is so well known as to be accepted by all. However, in this case, I am not sure what sources you are using to support your argument, and it may be that I am so uninformed as to be "clueless", so, if it would not be too much trouble, could you please steer me towards some supporting evidence. |
|
|
|
lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - May 15 2004 : 08:33:45 AM
|
If Benteen 'brought' the packs, how fast could he be
not less of the velocity he had to come towards Custer, I guess.
Would a rational command order the packs to rush ahead, letting dropped boxes lay, and in essence opening a share program of ammo with the enemy?
Yes if this command is in peril and need all the support of his men. This demonstrate once more that Benteen had to be quick, really quick, without wasting a second.
Once encumbered with wounded and the packs, what offensive moves were open to Benteen and Reno given the proximity to the village and the condition of the command? Offensive moves with plausible goal, I mean, given the enemy was not running and the command couldn't hit anything. As it turned out, they had barely enough to protect them in the heart of enemy territory, much less utilize them in sustained offensive against a numerically superior enemy.
No one could tell what would have happen (also if it's obvious that the number of soldiers was not irrilevant that day: every man more, was a chance more to save the day), but can be told this: that, would have been the duty to discharge. And sure, if Benteen would have reached Custer as requested, we would have today not so much dark clouds around this battle.
|
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
|
|
|
Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 15 2004 : 12:18:49 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
I will immediately pull out the research papers that clearly stated that the trumpeteer Martini waived at the smiling Boston as he cheerfully rode to the head of Cedar Coulee, less than five minutes from the General's position.
Just which research papers clearly stated that Boston was "smiling"? That's a detail I don't remember.
We also don't know where Boston reached his brother. Cedar Coulee is just a best guess, based on what little we have to go on. It's good to acknowledge that.
quote:
Every scholar, that I'm aware of, are of the opinion that Boston arrived safetly. That is why his body was located on Custer Hill rather that any where else. Had he been waylaid or wounded elsewhere, the probability of his reaching Custer is severely deminished. But, Hey, what do they know.
Nothing, of course. Boston could easily have been hurt on his way there, and if Martin is any judge, there were hostile Indians somewhere between their meeting-point and Custer's companies. Boston did live long enough to make it to Custer Hill, whatever happened or didn't happen to him.
quote:
Oh yes, you also stated that Boston was in "desertion of duty" by leaving the back pack. I assume you made that assumption because he did not receive orders to sally forth. Boston's occupation on this excursion was as a civilian guide, therefore he was not a member of the military and, ergo, was not in dereliction of duty. Oh dear, there I go again trying to think when I have you to do that for me.
Boston was employed by the Quartermaster Department. He had the same "boss" as the lower-ranking soldiers. The only true civilians were Reed and Kellogg.
You need to get over your habit of making stuff up. You may not think it matters, but it does. So much history today is twisted up because people are lazy and want to tell a good story, or they're stabbed with a desire to reach quick and easy conclusions about "The Truth", and if that means taking leaps from the evidence, so be it.
You charged that Benteen "failed to render aid" to some soldiers in the valley. You then denied ever saying it, even though your words are right there. You still deny it. A mature individual would simply admit he didn't think his comments all the way through, and there would be the end of it, but from your bizarre cyberstrutting, you seem to just be hoping that no one will notice. Credibility on a forum is established by being right, and by being clear and honest with others. No one's trying to give you a rough ride, but you need to start being more careful about the things you say. You WILL be called on it if you try to slip something by. It does no good to whine about it.
R. Larsen
|
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 15 2004 : 12:19:13 PM
|
Rocky,
I would contest the use of the term 'rant.' Which of my alleged claims do you want documented?
In the age of the Internet, it generally takes less time for you or anyone to look up the information. If what you find is different, that's an issue.
Lorenzo,
There is nothing in Cooke's note to indicate Custer was in peril or even in combat or close to it. In fact, what info may have come from Martin indicates even less alarm; Martin is also supposed to have said the Indians were running from Reno's charge. "Skedadalling" or some such. In aggregate, nothing to scare Benteen. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 15 2004 : 1:53:16 PM
|
Mr. Anonymous Poster 8169, perhaps you have noticed that this is the very first time I have responed to you. your superb usage of practically all of my statements, and your amazing ability to quote me inncessantly is impressive.
Having said that, let me explain why, untill this moment, I have chosen to ignor you. I am a firm believer that these oprn forum discussions by novices, such as ourselves, is a legitimate avenue to re-open the doors to a controversial event and, give others an opportunity to "think outside of the box," and in the precess, discover new information that may have been lost to us(over the years) because of closed minded people who refuse to even entertain the possibility that they may not have it right. This endeavor is so important to me that when a respondent reduces this important work to a primeval state by issuing an offesive, and needless remark such as, "It does no good to whine about it.", I seek others with a slightly more diginfied approach. I don't mean to be super-sensitive, just wanted you to know. I look forward from, never-the-less, hearing from you. |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 15 2004 : 2:57:46 PM
|
Dar Cloud:
Having read your latest accusation of my meaness toward Benteen, I must admit I was stunned. One of us have been reviewing a different web-site from the other. There is no other rationale to explain your total, and incomprehensible remarks "You still haven't addressed your two fabrications: That Benteen delibertedly failed to save soldiers being slaughtered, followed by your denial that you even suggested it."
As a result, I have reviewed, and listed, each statement I've ever made in this poll, about Benteen, that you could have possibly misunderstood. Please read the following:
5/10/04- I do mot mean to infer that Benteen's actions were responsible for the fatal outcome.
5/10/04 - Benteen could have assigned a number of officers, while he responded.
5/10/04 I realize that there is no way of ascertaining whay may have happened as Benteen did not respond.
5/10/04 - Benteen made an impossible claim regarding the number of warriors.
5/10/04 - Benteen's arrival did not "probably" prevent Reno from being finished off.
5/10/04 - I am not attempting to blame Benteen for any action he chose to follow.
5/11/04 - I did not charge Benteen with failure to render aid to the troopers left behind in the valley.
5/12/05 - Contrary to what some of the respondents obviously believe, my intent was not to hold Benteen responsible.
5/14/04 - Boston Custer was able to join Custer while Benteen, with three companies of troopers could not.
Everyone of the statement/responces were in direct answer to you sir. Every member, who so chooses, may review my statements as I did. I would be interested in knowing if they came up with the same conclusion.
Dark Cloud, what fabrications are you referring to? |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on May 15 2004 3:01:46 PM |
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 15 2004 : 3:46:01 PM
|
Start with melding these, Mr. Wiggs. To subject others to your numerous misspellings and gaseous prose simply to wear them down is harsh. Simply tell us how your May 11 statement can be reconciled with your May 10 statement.
“Benteen failed to render aid to 10 to 12 soldiers that HE obsevred being slaughtered in the valley. This is according to his own testimony. Hwhen his actions became questioned and scrutinized later, by public opinion, he fell upon his past military experience of watching battallions of troopers on PARADE MARCH, w”
-you May 10
“Your insistance in continuing to mis-quote me, however, is fascinating. I did not charge Benteen with failure to render aid to the troopers left behind on the valley floor.”
-you May 11
|
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 15 2004 : 4:19:33 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
Mr. Anonymous Poster 8169, perhaps you have noticed that this is the very first time I have responed to you.
I haven't, because it isn't.
quote:
Having said that, let me explain why, untill this moment, I have chosen to ignor you. I am a firm believer that these oprn forum discussions by novices, such as ourselves, is a legitimate avenue to re-open the doors to a controversial event and, give others an opportunity to "think outside of the box," and in the precess, discover new information that may have been lost to us(over the years) because of closed minded people who refuse to even entertain the possibility that they may not have it right. This endeavor is so important to me that when a respondent reduces this important work to a primeval state by issuing an offesive, and needless remark such as, "It does no good to whine about it.", I seek others with a slightly more diginfied approach. I don't mean to be super-sensitive, just wanted you to know. I look forward from, never-the-less, hearing from you.
You're not going to discover any new information by complacently churning out baseless assertions and novelistic details (smiling Boston, haunted Curley). If you don't like your assumptions being questioned, or your arguments critiqued, then this might not be a place where you're going to have fun. If that sounds primeval to you, then I'm guessing you're a virgin to real historical debate. They're not hard standards to meet.
R. Larsen
|
|
|
|
lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - May 15 2004 : 7:17:02 PM
|
Dear Dark Cloud you say
There is nothing in Cooke's note to indicate Custer was in peril or even in combat or close to it. In fact, what info may have come from Martin indicates even less alarm; Martin is also supposed to have said the Indians were running from Reno's charge. "Skedadalling" or some such. In aggregate, nothing to scare Benteen.
Well, that's not true. If you may have reasons about the message (but I don't agree, because of the horse blessed, and the two time asking packs and quick are enough to understand soomething was happening)you cannot say that Benteen did'nt know that something was starting or happening with Custer, or even that he don't knew a battle was starting, as Martini said to him: "I suppose that by this time he had charged through the village". Then Benteen knew it. If not from the message (but, I still say: why a commander in front of a big village ask to be quick and bring packs if he don't need support?)from the voice of Martin.
MArtin, said also that he had not time to stop to look after Reno battle, but that seems the line of him was falling back. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 15 2004 : 8:38:12 PM
|
Dark Cloud, please take a breath, pause a moment, then relax a spell. I believe that you somehow have taken this entire exchange of information in a personal manner. That, to me, is regrettable. I wish you had not felt compelled to unleash such a barrage of unbridled anger towards me. Where I am confused is your completely negative attitude towards anything I say. No human is wrong all of the time, but according to you I am. You accused me of lying,and creating a fabrication. You charged me with stating that Benteen DELIBERATELY failed to save soldiers being slaughtered, and my continuous failure to address my false statement. The operative word here is and,I might add, one chosen by you, "deliberate", is patentedly incorrect.
Can you not distinquish between the following two concepts; deliberately failed to save the soldiers (your statement) and, Benteen observed (which he testified to) the soldiers being slaughtered. (my actual statement)
I deeply regret my making you so uncomfortable by my usage of gaseous prose, but that remark about my spelling was way out of line. I have not been able to spell since my childhood. I burden I still carry; God you'er cruel. Perhaps you would feel better if you ceased responding to me. I realize now that you have personal issues with me because the poisonous venom that spewed from you is indicative of an individual who perceives that his status has been tampered with by an interloper. I wish you well my friend, and I always will. I sincerely hope that your perspective of me will one day change, untill then, Vayas Con Dias mi Amigo! |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Benteen's order
Topic Locked
