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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - September 21 2008 : 11:14:01 AM
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Bear in mind Indians had no central command, so visualizing their moves as representative of overall command structure is false on its face. SOME probably wanted to keep Reno bottled up, some wanted to slaughter them right away, some wanted to go back to sleep, go hunting, pack up and visit Mom along the Missouri. What they didn't want was Reno to get closer to the camp and civvies.
Reno wanted, he said and others say, to get to the high ground on the other side of the river to reunite the command, and would therefore likely take the quickest way there. If they had to go back to Ford A, so be it, but he'd take any shorter route. Under fire, and without time to survey the west bank, deceptive as all that land is, his chosen path may have looked better than it was, which is understandable. At the crossing, he was immediately under fire from Indians on the east bank.
For contemplation, in order to clear the east bank of snipers, they'd have to dismount, and in order to fire accurately at the west, they'd have to dismount, and risking losing your mount was probably not a go-to idea at that point. It can be visualized several ways, but since nobody has been able to show how Reno could have extricated his men with fewer lost mounts and casualties in any likely scenario, cut him some slack.
Remember AZ: tarbaby. It's attention he wants, nothing else. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on September 21 2008 11:15:55 AM |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - September 21 2008 : 3:53:44 PM
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| SgtMajor,Custer rode downstream to ford B and the battlefield. Reno did go in the direction of ford A. He was at the river when he was in the timber. He rode upstream parallel to the river in the direction of ford A, the only ford he knew of.The Indians must have forced him to the place where he crossed. It does not seem like a place he would have chosen. |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - September 21 2008 : 4:05:39 PM
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| Hi DC, it has been a while.If Reno's only concern was the shortest and quickest route to the bluffs, he would have crossed directly from the timber.Obviously the Indians made that impractical,so he headed for the ford that he knew to be fairly easy. He must have been forced to the retreat crossing. With its steep banks on both side and a high bluff on the East side, it doesn't seem like a place he would have chosen. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 21 2008 : 4:41:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by prolar
AZ, You believe that Reno Hill was the objective when Reno left the timber? It seems to me that ford A was the objective. The Indians forced them toward the river and retreat ford that wasn't known to anyone with Reno. So it was only chance that they ended on Reno Hill.
Once there they were in a worse situation than in the timber. Fewer men and no organization.Only the arrival of Benteen and the distraction of Custer's force downstream saved them.
Reno's Hill would be any place he ended up since it was not named yet. I believe they were to rally on a high point. I Believe I read that Reno had a discussion just outside the timber on the general location the rallying would occur. I believe you correct that the Indians changed the preferred crossing point but that goes to show that Reno was not in front with no Indians.
The timber was worse because the Indians could infiltrate without being observed. They entered behind the troopers and were coming to the horses only protected by one trooper for four horses.
Crazy Horse would have killed them all in the timber in my opinion. By leaving the timber Reno provided the opportunity to select what happens next. If he stayed and hundreds more appeared the Indians are in charge of his destiny.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
Edited by - AZ Ranger on September 21 2008 5:16:36 PM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 21 2008 : 5:01:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sgtmajor109th
Well, first all you have take in the whole picture. One I do believe
that everyone agrees that you can,t count those killed on the skirmish
line or killed in the woods as part of the charge to the buffs. As for
those killed on the bluff, they would have to be counted as part of
the charge. So based on Gray's figures,there would have been 25 in the
charge for the bluffs, with 9 killed on the bluffs.
If you take those killed in the woods and the skirmish line, which
would be 9 and the 16 this would have been 25 which matches what
Matt Carroll and Lt Johnson, counting 25 bodies. On the other side
of the coin, pg 289, in "Gray's Sioux War of 1876" Table 3, gives
a break down of the companies. If my figures are correct, then 118
men made it to the Hill Top. I made have made a mistake so this figure
may not be correct.
The argument is should Reno stay in the timber or retrograde. Those dying on the skirmish are dead either way. I think I have presented the retrograde in three phases following most authors method of defining such action; charge to river, cross the rive and climb the hillside. The total retrograde is less than 35.
If anyone cares to explain how to get to the river with less casualties, cross the river with less casualties, and climb the hill with less casualties than lets hear it.
I believe that the charge to the river was as good as any way to get to the river. It did not need formations because charge speeds make formations fall apart even if they start out in formation after approximately 50 yards at the full gallop gait of a charge.
I don't believe that the soldiers following Reno's orders die needlessly.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 21 2008 : 5:03:39 PM
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retrograde movement
(DOD) Any movement of a command to the rear, or away from the enemy. It may be forced by the enemy or may be made voluntarily. Such movements may be classified as withdrawal, retirement, or delaying action.
I use the word retrograde as defined by the Department of Defense to include the whole movement from leaving the timber to reaching the top of the hill. The retrograde stops there in my opinion because they stop retreating at the top of the hill.
Charge, horses running speed and mixing with the enemy, as I use the term usually is the result of the command to charge and usually given within 50 yards of the enemy. It can be a longer distance but the formation tends to falls apart. Reno's is over 50 yards and it could be expected to fall apart before it even started because they knew it was a longer distance.
I don't think Reno charged down the valley toward the village. He altered his plans when there was more than 50 Indians that weren't running. Reno's retrograde began with the elements of a charge with the horses running at a full gallop and the mixing with the enemy.
I believe the charge ended at the river and the other two elements needed to be completed those being cross the river and climb to the top of the hill.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
Edited by - AZ Ranger on September 21 2008 5:30:50 PM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 21 2008 : 5:37:26 PM
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Remember AZ: tarbaby. It's attention he wants, nothing else.
Thanks for the heads up. I know you are right, after reading that he called books by John S. Gray and Douglas D. Scott comic books. He now wants to include the figures from the whole valley fight to bolster his statement that 35 died needlessly after leaving the timber instead of just admitting that he erred. We all make errors but most of realize and admit it. The Ford A, B discussion is a perfect example.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
Edited by - AZ Ranger on September 21 2008 5:47:06 PM |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 21 2008 : 6:37:46 PM
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As I have said before that I feel Reno took the only path open
to him at the time. If he made a dash for Ford "A" I feel that
his killed and wounded would have been far greater. Even when
he came out of the timber, there were indians there, but his
quick move out of the timber threw them off, allowing him and
his command to head for the river and the bluffs. Of course
once they relized what was happening they attacked the column.
When you consider what happened at that moment, you know the
indians had to be surprised by the action taken by Reno. Other
wise the killed and wounded may have been higher. |
Sgtmajor |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 21 2008 : 6:49:54 PM
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Prolar, In answer to your post, yes Reno may have though about going
back to Ford "A", but at the time indians were in his rear and block-
his movement towards Ford "A". Now it may have been when he left the
timber, he may have wanted to head in that directions, but it is a
good possibilty that the indians force in front him, caused him to
take the path he did, it is a point that much is not written about.
It would appear when you about movement to the bluffs, that it was
a planned thing, I feel his movement to the left and the river and
the bluffs was the only opion he had open to him, and to get to
high ground. |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - September 21 2008 : 8:52:38 PM
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| I'm not sure what our disagreement is. Ford A and retreat ford were both in the same general direction upstream. The Indians on Reno's right flank kept forcing him closer to the river and retreat ford. I certainly don't think retreat ford was his objective when he left the timber. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 21 2008 : 10:32:26 PM
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| Ford A would be in the retreat direction further down then where Reno crossed the river. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - September 22 2008 : 09:35:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by AZ Ranger
Ford A would be in the retreat direction further down then where Reno crossed the river.
Why not further up when referring to upstream? I'm getting picky about stream directions. |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - September 22 2008 : 09:46:23 AM
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| AZ, not much point in discussing what might have happened when we don't agree on what did happen. I have to concede that many of Reno's command survived, while none of Custer's did.I credit that to circumstances, not Reno's leadership . |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 22 2008 : 11:29:53 AM
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Custer went downstream from Reno position, so Ford "B" would have
been downstream, Ford "A" up stream. Sorry guys my mistake. However
it stll would have been very difficult For Reno to get back to Ford
"A". As I have said before the indians where there in that area. This
all came about while Reno was on the skirmish line, and the indians
passed around his left flank and got into his rear.
The other factor is he would have had to make a run of about 2 miles
to Ford"A". verses 1 1/4 miles to the river and the bluffs. I do feel
if Reno wanted to get back to Ford"A" he would have lost a good many
more men then he did. Had he headed for For"A" he may then have ran
into Benteen's command, but I still believe he would have lost a
big part of his command, and on tired horses. And I don't believe
he wanted to go in that direction because of the indians.
Now if you considered the fact that if he had taken the time to get
all his men in order and line up in formation for a charge, it may
have worked in his favor, I don't believe the indians would have
given that time, as it was they were putting alot of pressure on
him, I think he did the only thing he could and that was to take
the shorter route and to get to high ground. |
Sgtmajor |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 22 2008 : 7:45:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sgtmajor109th
Custer went downstream from Reno position, so Ford "B" would have
been downstream, Ford "A" up stream. Sorry guys my mistake. However
it stll would have been very difficult For Reno to get back to Ford
"A". As I have said before the indians where there in that area. This
all came about while Reno was on the skirmish line, and the indians
passed around his left flank and got into his rear.
The other factor is he would have had to make a run of about 2 miles
to Ford"A". verses 1 1/4 miles to the river and the bluffs. I do feel
if Reno wanted to get back to Ford"A" he would have lost a good many
more men then he did. Had he headed for For"A" he may then have ran
into Benteen's command, but I still believe he would have lost a
big part of his command, and on tired horses. And I don't believe
he wanted to go in that direction because of the indians.
Now if you considered the fact that if he had taken the time to get
all his men in order and line up in formation for a charge, it may
have worked in his favor, I don't believe the indians would have
given that time, as it was they were putting alot of pressure on
him, I think he did the only thing he could and that was to take
the shorter route and to get to high ground.
Sgtmajor I agree there is no way to run those horses to Ford A without some dropping out and instant death. If Custer would have taken the pressure off Reno then Custer still is wiped out. The timing only worked in my opinion is if Custer could have hit the same Indians that first went after Reno and before the rest such as Crazy Horse got ready. Then the would be doing to the Indians what was in reality done to the cavalry. Fighting a smaller group at one time and could have prevented all the Indians being able to fight at the same time.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 22 2008 : 7:51:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by prolar
quote:
Originally posted by AZ Ranger
Ford A would be in the retreat direction further down then where Reno crossed the river.
Why not further up when referring to upstream? I'm getting picky about stream directions.
Further down the bluffs or as you say upstream. I believe the bluffs were the goal. I agree with Sgtmajor that choosing a high point on the bluffs and less distance than the Indians anticipated goal worked to their advantage. Doesn't mean you don't lose lives.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
Edited by - AZ Ranger on September 22 2008 7:51:53 PM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 22 2008 : 7:58:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by prolar
AZ, not much point in discussing what might have happened when we don't agree on what did happen. I have to concede that many of Reno's command survived, while none of Custer's did.I credit that to circumstances, not Reno's leadership .
Reno created the circumstance to survive that is why his men credit him with saving their lives. I am not sure on what part we disagree but the thread topic is responsibility at LBH. I think Reno acted within acceptable parameters for an officer.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - September 23 2008 : 08:01:56 AM
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| AZ, forming the skirmish line is probably to Reno's credit. Leaving his men on the skirmish line and going to the timber, I'll leave to you.Once there, he wanted Varnum to go back to the skirmish line and see how things were going. Proper behavior for a commander? Some, maybe most, of the men he left to the Indians survived. Do you credit Reno with saving their lives? The Indians had the numbers so probably could have wiped out the command in the timber, if they had been willing to take the losses involved. They didn't. They didn't even go into the timber after the few men with Herendeen. As you say there would have been losses either way, but I can't believe it was a choice or objective to reach retreat ford. A determined attack would have wiped out Reno's command on the hill just as it would have in the timber. They survived because they were joined by Benteen and the Indians were distracted by Custer.As you say Reno created the circumstance so he deserves the faint praise Brent mentioned. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 23 2008 : 09:44:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by prolar
AZ, forming the skirmish line is probably to Reno's credit. Leaving his men on the skirmish line and going to the timber, I'll leave to you.Once there, he wanted Varnum to go back to the skirmish line and see how things were going. Proper behavior for a commander? Some, maybe most, of the men he left to the Indians survived. Do you credit Reno with saving their lives? The Indians had the numbers so probably could have wiped out the command in the timber, if they had been willing to take the losses involved. They didn't. They didn't even go into the timber after the few men with Herendeen. As you say there would have been losses either way, but I can't believe it was a choice or objective to reach retreat ford. A determined attack would have wiped out Reno's command on the hill just as it would have in the timber. They survived because they were joined by Benteen and the Indians were distracted by Custer.As you say Reno created the circumstance so he deserves the faint praise Brent mentioned.
Once the Skirmish line is set the Company commanders and NCOs are fully capable of handling it. The horses were placed in the timber and the battalion commander has and obligation to make sure they are safe plus make an assessment of the defensibility of the timber. Reno describes his assessment in the RCOI.
A determined attacked wiped out Custer also with 2 more companies.
I believe a determined attack would have wiped out 3 companies in the timber. The perimeter was to large to defend at proper intervals for the troopers. The concealment of the timber allowed the Indians to infiltrate at will. Horses had been shot. Ammunition was limited to what they took in with them and some had used half. Support by other troops and supplies was not evident. The number of Indians was increasing. Crazy Horse was coming.
AZ Ranger
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 23 2008 : 1:43:25 PM
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The skirmish line at the time was a smart one by Maj Reno, to
me with what was ahead of him it was his best opion. However
the problem with the skirmish line was the fact that the indians
kept out of range of the troopers weapons. The ammunition used
by the troopers a 45/55 copper-cased shell. The best effective
range was 300 yards, but you could hit a target at 600 yards
by careful aiming and use of the sights.
Keep in mind that some said that soldiers were shooting high.
It would be a thing a soldier would do to hit a target. If a
bullet hit the ground in front of a target he would raise the
sight higher. At 300 yards, 45/55 carbines accuracy dropped to
about 75%. The carbine could fire a 45/70 and be very effective
at over 600 yards. However for the cavalry the 45/55 shell was
used, because it caused less recoil while shooting from the
saddle.
Also keep in mind that the indians basicly had the same problem
with there weapons. Mostly why there was onlt a few men hit on
the skirmish line. Men also reported that while on the skirmish
line indian bullets were hitting in front of them.
I agree 100% with what, AZ said about Custer, he knew of the force
that faced Reno, If he had thrown more companies into the fight
and followed up Reno's attack, I believe you would of had a lot
different battle. Once he got to that point near Reno Hill where
he could see that village, he then should have moved his force
down to support Reno. Had he done that I believe he would have
caused the indians, nothing but mass confustion. |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 08 2009 : 9:27:15 PM
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At the time of the skirmish line Custer was not concerned with the amount of warriors facing Reno. had Reno displayed a stouter and more aggressive front, panic would have encompassed the village. Despite Reno's allegation that the very valley "grew Indians" In actuality, he was in pursuit of a small village that encompassed 50 to 70 warriors as testified to by witnesses.
The actual village did not respond until skirmish rounds flashed through the tops of village teepee's. Then, and only then, did mainstream warriors began responding toward Reno's position. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 13 2009 : 09:40:18 AM
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There were hundreds of Indians waiting in the creek channel. It would been impossible to cross it on line even with no Indians in it. The Indians appeared as they stopped. The shots hitting the village were the over estimation of the range by the troopers shooting at those Indians.
I would ask you for your sources but there is none for:
"The actual village did not respond until skirmish rounds flashed through the tops of village teepee's. Then, and only then, did mainstream warriors began responding toward Reno's position."
You don't even get Reno's orders. It was to bring them to battle. He did that and they stayed until they won. If Reno had caused panic and the village fled he would have disobeyed his orders. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 06 2009 : 11:48:02 AM
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"Bring them to battle" calls for a military engagement between two opposing forces. Reno halted his troops and formed a skirmish line before his men were even in competent firing range, an act which completely abolished any change of engagement.
While it may be true that the Indian forces he did not encounter (in battle) may have been too formidable for him, we will never know as the line did not stand before quickly melting away in a disorderly romp to the timber line.
To say that if Reno had caused panic in the village if he stayed would be a disobeying of orders is incomprehensible. Military annalists and pundits, for eons, have realized that panic among enemy forces is tantamount to sure victory. Certainly you can agree with me that Custer desired a victory, no matter what orders he may or may not have issued.
To my knowledge, no student has knowledge of the entire gamut of orders issued by the General on that day. To assume that he issued the solitary one you mentioned, and no others, is presumptuous and unsustainable. |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 06 2009 : 11:48:02 AM
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"Bring them to battle" calls for a military engagement between two opposing forces. Reno halted his troops and formed a skirmish line before his men were even in competent firing range, an act which completely abolished any change of engagement.
While it may be true that the Indian forces he did not encounter (in battle) may have been too formidable for him, we will never know as the line did not stand before quickly melting away in a disorderly romp to the timber line.
To say that if Reno had caused panic in the village if he stayed would be a disobeying of orders is incomprehensible. Military annalists and pundits, for eons, have realized that panic among enemy forces is tantamount to sure victory. Certainly you can agree with me that Custer desired a victory, no matter what orders he may or may not have issued.
To my knowledge, no student has knowledge of the entire gamut of orders issued by the General on that day. To assume that he issued the solitary one you mentioned, and no others, is presumptuous and unsustainable. |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 06 2009 : 11:48:05 AM
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"Bring them to battle" calls for a military engagement between two opposing forces. Reno halted his troops and formed a skirmish line before his men were even in competent firing range, an act which completely abolished any change of engagement.
While it may be true that the Indian forces he did not encounter (in battle) may have been too formidable for him, we will never know as the line did not stand before quickly melting away in a disorderly romp to the timber line.
To say that if Reno had caused panic in the village if he stayed would be a disobeying of orders is incomprehensible. Military annalists and pundits, for eons, have realized that panic among enemy forces is tantamount to sure victory. Certainly you can agree with me that Custer desired a victory, no matter what orders he may or may not have issued.
To my knowledge, no student has knowledge of the entire gamut of orders issued by the General on that day. To assume that he issued the solitary one you mentioned, and no others, is presumptuous and unsustainable. |
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Responsibility At Little Bighorn
