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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - September 09 2009 : 09:33:54 AM
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Wrong three times. You don't think Crazy Horse was brought to battle by Reno?
To say that if Reno had caused panic in the village if he stayed would be a disobeying of orders is incomprehensible.
Joe there is no help for some people. As Ron White states you can't fix .....
You left out fled and the orders were to bring them to battle. You really think fleeing and fighting are the same thing?
What is incomprehensible to anyone reading your 3 posts is that you read
You don't even get Reno's orders. It was to bring them to battle. He did that and they stayed until they won. If Reno had caused panic and the village fled he would have disobeyed his orders.
and then you wrote
To say that if Reno had caused panic in the village if he stayed would be a disobeying of orders is incomprehensible.
They = Indians Joe in "He did that and they stayed until they won." How did you change it he=Reno in "if he stayed".
Another Joe Jewell
"Military annalists and pundits, for eons, have realized that panic among enemy forces is tantamount to sure victory. Certainly you can agree with me that Custer desired a victory, no matter what orders he may or may not have issued."
I would guess that Terry and Custer were afraid of the Indians fleeing. If all Custer wanted to do was cause them to panic and flee than he only needed to build large fires on the divide and sit there for a day or two drinking coffee.
Reno was sent with a small enough force to bring them to battle. If panic was the goal then bring the whole regiment together. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - October 24 2009 : 10:41:30 PM
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| There were way too many layers of information in Reno's orders for anyone to think that there was only "one set" of orders to it. The very same thing happened in Benteen's orders, and to think that it didn't happen in Reno's also places too much information in the hands of one man. Especially when considering that Reno would have had to have ridden right past Custer in the process of prosecution of those orders, and he, Custer, just stood there and waved him by like some kind of traffic cop? As Benteen himself would say, "I think not." |
Edited by - Benteen on October 24 2009 10:42:24 PM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 25 2009 : 1:38:57 PM
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| So let's explore the layers of the orders to Reno. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 25 2009 : 5:56:52 PM
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Good suggestion! Indian battles were not a precise affair. they were too wise to stand still like good little targets should and, they had the annoying habit of dividing into splintered groups when possible, which was ofter.
Their camps were usually well guarded and forewarned when the soldiers approached. a major exception being this battle, Custer's plan worked all too well.
What does a military commander do under such circumstances, how does he prepare to meet, contain, and destroy the Plains Indian. had the Indians possessed an European type government and a stand army, I am certain that extensive negotiations would have been ensued, not the insincere and untruthful "parley" that was utilized to no avail. lacking the trappings of a "civilized Nation" the problem was solved by a government determination to break their backs by military might; to kill enough of them until the remainder surrendered.
What you can not do:
You can't bring up heavy artillery because you will never catch up to the village dragging these pieces behind you.
Usage of Infantry is limited for the same reason given above;
Know your enemy which Custer did not. At the Rosebud the Sioux stood up too and attacked a standing, military unit. Something that had never happened before in the Plains War and, they won! Had Custer know of this he would of, undoubtedly handle things differently.
Custer gave Reno nor Benteen any tactical orders because he could not until he discovered the exact location of the village and the terrain that it was placed in. What he could do is prepare for the best possible contingency by sending Benteen to cut off the escape route south, have Reno pursue the secondary village that it was presumed to be riding hard to warn the main village while he, Custer, followed in Reno's wake until further developments occurred.
When additional warriors were spotted in the area where Reno would eventually arrive, Custer assumed that they were a portion of the village using an escape route and rushed their to investigate.
In the meantime, Reno comes across a standing village which he totally did not anticipate. Dumbstruck he halted his command. Things are now happening quickly. Despite his testimony, the village was running away at Reno's approach. He confronted the fifty or so warriors that he was originally pursuing. they were whipping their mounts into a frenzy to kick up a dense smoke cloud to cover the village. When reno halted, this emboldened the warriors who then, and only then, charged.
Reno's flight from the timber, rightly or wrongly, freed up hundreds of warriors who could no concentrate on Custer's command.
Two things then occurred that sealed Custer's fate. The two messengers, Martin and Kanipe, shouted out words of encouragement indicating that Custer was "Killing Indians everywhere." Benteen, understandably , assumed the battle, for intent and purposes, was over. Custer had duped him.
Secondly, Reno failed to render aid to Custer even after the ammo packs arrived. In summation, the layers of orders were:
Locate the village:
Cut off escape routes;
Hit the village from different directions;
Recognize that Custer's position on the bluffs was a flank attack(what else could it have been?) and "Come On" with the ammo and additional troops to seal the deal.
In 1876 that was the best plan that the military had. Not a very good one but, under the circumstances? |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 25 2009 : 8:41:10 PM
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I beleive Custer thought the Indians would run and had no expectation that Reno could hold them. He had only to bring them to battle or drive them. Thanks to someone on another board I now believe Custer did not intend a flank attack or else he could have done it. Seeing the size of the village I believe his objective was to let Reno and Benteen drive them from the village and Custer would block them from crossing the river. The new objective drive them towards Terry, kill a few, and capture the village.
Unfortunately there were to many Indians for Reno to drive them but he did bring them to battle. There were to many Indians willing to fight and Custer got them to battle.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - October 26 2009 : 12:55:27 PM
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Well, since you both agreed upon this, I can do no other.
Reno's Orders - Layer's of Information,
We begin where Joe left off on the other thread. Did Wallace lie, or was it something else?
Does anyone see any difference in the two following statements? [And no, this isn't a "teaching lesson" AZ. I just want to know if anyone see's the difference in these two observations of what they said came down. And there are differences, Major ones (pun intended) at that.]
quote:
Lt. Wallace, RCOI,
After Benteen left.... "Custer moved down the right bank of a little stream and Maj. Reno down the left bank. (Maj. Reno had 110 to 115 men, including Indian scouts. Benteen had more. Custer had about 225.} They moved from 100 to 200 yards apart. After going 10 or 12 miles, Maj. Reno was called over to the right bank where Gen. Custer was. The two battalions then moved parallel for some distance. We passed a tepee which had some dead bodies in it and soon after that the Adjutant came to Maj. Reno and said that he Indians were about 2 1/2 miles ahead and Maj. Reno was ordered forwards as fast as he could go to charge them and the others would support him.... Custer's order was about this: "The Indians are about 2 1/2 miles ahead on the jump. Follow them as fast as you can and charge them wherever you find them, and we will support you." I think those were the words. I am not positive as to the "we"... After Reno received the order to charge we moved a mile and a half or two miles at a gallop to the crossing in about 15 minutes. Lt. Cook and Capt. Keogh went with us toward the ford. I heard them talking as we rode along. I thought at the time they went into the fight with us...Reno received the order to charge about 2:15 p.m. I had looked at my watch when Custer called Reno to his side of the little stream. It was then about two o'clock; taking the distance we passed over I estimate it as 2:15 when Reno received the charge order. It was about one and a half hours later that we were joined by Benteen on the hill or at 4 pm..."
I saw Gen. Custer beckon Maj. Reno to come to the opposite side of the tributary. That was when I pulled out my watch and looked at it, and it is my impression that an orderly came about the same time with Gen. Custer's compliments and asked him to go over to the other bank. He moved over with his battalion and the two moved along from 10 to 15 yards apart, the heads of the columns about opposite each other. There was some mingling together of the men, and some of Gen. Custer's officers started (toward the river) with us.
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Reno, RCOI; Official Report,
"The other two columns continued moving on opposite banks of the stream until we came in sight of the tepee that has been referred to, when the Commanding officer beckoned to me with his hat to cross to the bank where he was. When I got there the battalion was somewhat scattered and i was about opposite the rear of his column. I there received an order from Lt. Cook to move my command to the front. When I got up there, there was a tumult going on among the Indian scouts. They were stripping themselves and preparing to fight. I understood that they had refused to go forward and Gen. Custer had ordered them to give up their guns and horses. I moved forward to the head of the column and shortly after Lt. Cook came to me and said "Gen. Custer directs you to take as rapid a gait as you think prudent and charge the village afterward and you will be supported by the whole outfit..."
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Edited by - Benteen on October 26 2009 12:57:53 PM |
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - October 27 2009 : 12:31:32 AM
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1] The first thing one notices in both, is the movement of the columns down Reno creek. And they both mention a tepee. But this is where the similarities end. Wallace states an implied distance, but does not reference a starting point . This distance he said was 10 or 12 miles, but also notice what he followed that up with, “ The two battalions then moved parallel for some distance”, by direct implication to mean ’farther’ than the previous 10 or 12 traveled. One needs only guess here right? He was using the divide, obviously as that starting reference point. Although, he never said that.
Reno did not state a distance.
2] What happened next according to Wallace?
He moved over with his battalion and the two moved along from 10 to 15 yards apart, the heads of the columns about opposite each other. There was some mingling together of the men, and some of Gen. Custer's officers started (toward the river) with us.
We passed a tepee which had some dead bodies in it and soon after that the Adjutant came to Maj. Reno and said that he Indians were about 2 1/2 miles ahead and Maj. Reno was ordered forwards as fast as he could go to charge them and the others would support him.... Custer's order was about this: "The Indians are about 2 1/2 miles ahead on the jump. Follow them as fast as you can and charge them wherever you find them, and we will support you." I think those were the words. I am not positive as to the "we"...
And Reno?
When I got there the battalion was somewhat scattered and i was about opposite the rear of his column. I there received an order from Lt. Cook to move my command to the front.
There is a world of difference between the two. Wallace’s organizations seem well coordinated and not strung out, and according to Wallace, moved with “the heads of the columns about opposite each other, 10 to 15 yards apart. And adds “there was some mingling…”
Reno tells it differently and first mentions the “scattering” which such a maneuver would have done and he adds “and I was about opposite the rear of his column” And while there, “I received an order from Lt. Cook to move my command to the front.” That was it, nothing superfluous nor majestic as a grand charge as Wallace suggested, just “move his command to the front” and this order was conveyed by none other than Cooke. Who may have stated it this way, “ The Indians are about 2 1/2 miles ahead on the jump. Move forwards as fast as you can go.” Of course according to Wallace he inserts this. “and charge them wherever you find them, and we will support you." Of course there would be those who would not question Wallace’s memory of this, or Reno’s negligence in stating it to the court, but it doesn’t end there. Notice how Wallace was unsure of the word “we”, and later in testimony find out that the word wasn’t “I’ either. If the word or words Wallace was striving to say in that phrase did not include the words “we” or “I”, what was the proper phrase he was trying to convey? But it still doesn’t end there, for in the very next sentence he said this, “The Indians are about 2 1/2 miles ahead on the jump.” Really? Down Reno Creek? From the divide? 10 to 12 miles, The two battalions then moved parallel for some distance, and now add to this the 2 ½ miles? That’s 12 ½ to 14 ½ miles in measured distance and “some distance more” down Reno Creek presumably from the divide.
3] And the next events were?
According to Wallace a quick move to the river crossing it some 15 minutes later and then his brilliant deductions of time.
And Reno?
“When I got up there (to where Custer was), there was a tumult going on among the Indian scouts. They were stripping themselves and preparing to fight. I understood that they had refused to go forward and Gen. Custer had ordered them to give up their guns and horses. I moved forward to the head of the column….”
Wallace’s glaring omission of this well testified to event was to say the least to him unimportant? Why? Perhaps because if he didn’t see it, then no one did and thus it didn’t happen so Custer could not have been there to give Reno any direct orders? It seems as though Reno himself concurred with Wallace on this point, but if Custer was to give Reno any direct orders this would have been the time and the place for it to have occurred.
4] By this time Wallace has left Reno in the dust and has already crossed the river well ahead of him. But Reno had more to say.
“I moved forward to the head of the column and shortly after Lt. Cook came to me and said "Gen. Custer directs you to take as rapid a gait as you think prudent and charge the village afterward and you will be supported by the whole outfit..."
Anyone see it yet? Wallace stated these orders were given to Reno when? Not after Reno had moved ahead of Custer’s column as Reno had clearly stated in his report, but long before - when Reno had just arrived at the van of Custer’s column. And this was how far back according to Wallace’s mileages? At least 2 ½ miles + “some distance more”. And Reno never had to catch up from the van of Custer’s column because he simply shifted directly across and they moved parallel some 10 to 15 yards apart, the heads about opposite each other - that whole distance, so that there was no need for the Scouts stripping incident was there? Nor may I add Girard’s observations and statements from the knoll.
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 27 2009 : 08:23:06 AM
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I don't view this as one of your teaching exercises Benteen. I think it is very important issue in understanding the types of testimony allowed at courts of inquiry.
2] What happened next according to Wallace?
He moved over with his battalion and the two moved along from 10 to 15 yards apart, the heads of the columns about opposite each other. There was some mingling together of the men, and some of Gen. Custer's officers started (toward the river) with us.
We passed a tepee which had some dead bodies in it and soon after that the Adjutant came to Maj. Reno and said that he Indians were about 2 1/2 miles ahead and Maj. Reno was ordered forwards as fast as he could go to charge them and the others would support him.... Custer's order was about this: "The Indians are about 2 1/2 miles ahead on the jump. Follow them as fast as you can and charge them wherever you find them, and we will support you." I think those were the words. I am not positive as to the "we"...
And Reno?
When I got there the battalion was somewhat scattered and i was about opposite the rear of his column. I there received an order from Lt. Cook to move my command to the front.
There is a world of difference between the two. Wallace’s organizations seem well coordinated and not strung out, and according to Wallace, moved with “the heads of the columns about opposite each other, 10 to 15 yards apart. And adds “there was some mingling…”
When I read witness statements I expect them to differ because of the individuals perspective and recollection. So they appear different and they should in most circumstances. Wallace was free to move and Reno had a command so Wallace's view could change from Custer to Reno to in between. Reno was more or less confined to his command.
If Reno was summoned across the creek and Custer did not quit moving I would think that at some point Reno was behind and had to catch up. At another point Reno is sent ahead while Custer moved at walk. At some point the would be side by side with the fronts about equal.
So Benteen I would agree that you have showed that witnesses testify to events differently but at some point they could have been observed and in the witnesses recollection something was more significant causing them to recall that particular event.
I think an interesting study would be to look at the answers and try to figure out if they are testifying to first hand information from a report or recollection, using someone else's time to extrapolate time, or giving testimony based upon a review with or without an opinion.
For example Benteen testifies that he used Wallace's time and then backs ups to derive 10:00 AM for an event. Benteen also has different opinions on the number of Indians based upon what he saw and later what he supposes and forms an opinion.
Edgerly testifies to events with Benteen from first hand knowledge and also testifies in reference to distances down Reno Creek. Either he later rode Reno Creek or he used a map to form some opinions upon which he testified.
I think in general that if we accept that some errors at expected and a need to discern what the person is testifying to there may be less confusion. With this battle probably not. I think absolute times will be hard. Distances are all approximate since they may estimated by what gait the person thought they moved at for an estimated time.
AZ Ranger
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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Edited by - AZ Ranger on October 27 2009 09:00:37 AM |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 31 2009 : 10:55:08 PM
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You are missing a vital point. The officers did not give completely honest answers for various reasons. look at the evidence. reno swore that he could not move until the packs were up. When they arrived and, ammo was there for the taking, he still waited an hour before pulling out towards the killing field.
Eagerly (a personal favorite of mine)later wrote that he requested, from Weir, that he be allowed to go back and render aid to Charlie Vincent when he saw poor Charlie being butchered as he rode away.
Moylan, who spent the entire two days of the siege laying on the ground with his rump in the air had nothing bad to say about Reno.
Benteen, who bemoaned over and over and over, "What valley, did you see a valley, hell I could wound up in Kentucky looking for that damn valley had nothing bad to say about Reno.
DeRudio, who was left behind in the timber stated to any who would hear, " if we hadn't be commanded by a coward, we would all be dead."
Godfrey, who single handedly force his troops to cover his companions retreat from Weir Point by forcing his men use cover fired against the embolden warriors, a man who held his precious army close to his heart, a man who became a General only had this to say about Reno, "he displayed nervous timidity."
The civilians who testified had nothing to fear from a military hierarchy; thus, they did not hesitate to speak the truth. Scouts, mule packers, and scouts described Reno as a drunken slob who spent an exorbitant amount of time holding up in a hole (with Weir) during the majority of the time of the siege.
These men had nothing to be proud of. Their motive was to spare their regiment, themselves, and the Army embarrassment. i understand this and, would have probably done the same. Just don't try to force feed me the garbage that they "told the truth." |
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - November 01 2009 : 08:24:59 AM
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Joe,
quote:
You are missing a vital point. The officers did not give
completely honest answers for various reasons. look at the evidence. reno swore that he could not move until the packs were up. When they arrived and, ammo was there for the taking, he still waited an hour before pulling out towards the killing field.
There were alot of facts that were not revealed until later on. Digging up these facts has been a nightmare turned into generically simplistic hogwash. Reno lied about that too (moving 1 hour after the packs), and of course at the COI there was alot of follow the leader crap that was going on there, and that's why Wallace was chosen as the first witness. Oh sure, someone is going to challenge that statement, because we all know who was, and he was there to testify to the integrity of his map, and everyone knows about that map, so we wont say any more, except to add, in comparison look at some of those Civil War maps and then make your own judgment of his abilities. BUT, he, Wallace was the first 7th cavalry member, a survivor of that battle, and the first of those to testify.
Wallace was to set the "times" for others to follow, and follow many of them did. Because if the truth was known about the correct times, then there would have been more than Reno's credibility to have worried about. And containment of that information was what the Court was worried about the most.
There is ample evidence that not only suggests, but tells exactly when they moved out, and it wasn't an hour later as Reno testified to, it was not more than 15 to 20 minutes after Reno arrived on the hill.
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Moylan, who spent the entire two days of the siege laying on the ground with his rump in the air had nothing bad to say about Reno.
Be careful with this one, he and Benteen were not the best of friends. Moylan and others were painted as cowards. But, that is far from the truth of the matter. Those who would not conform to the standards set by the court, by Reno and Benteen were to be denounced and “painted” in various demeaning ways to belittle their testimony. There were very few who testified that didn’t join in the “Saloon back room” antics of Reno and Benteen, prior to and even after the Court convened. Moylan was one who did not participate in that, the only other one I am aware of was Girard.
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Benteen, who bemoaned over and over and over, "What valley, did you see a valley, hell I could wound up in Kentucky looking for that damn valley had nothing bad to say about Reno.
It was the semantics of his words, phrases and sentences. He said about this that the Court knew he was hiding something, but they didn’t know how to get it out of him. Anyone going there will tell you it’s full of “valley’s” to be seen, and yet Benteen didn’t see any of them? Even today one runs into this semantics problem and many a word could be used to describe it, one among many is the term “generic simplicity”.
quote:
Godfrey, who single handedly force his troops to cover his
companions retreat from Weir Point by forcing his men use cover fired against the embolden warriors, a man who held his precious army close to his heart, a man who became a General only had this to say about Reno, "he displayed nervous
timidity."
The one thing about this is the observation, “Weir Point”. Where did this come from? Was it assumed from Maguire‘s map, or did Godfrey announce it as “Weir Point”, if so when?
quote:
The civilians who testified had nothing to fear from a
military hierarchy; thus, they did not hesitate to speak the truth. Scouts, mule packers, and scouts described Reno as a drunken slob who spent an exorbitant amount of time holding up in a hole (with Weir) during the majority of the time
of the siege.
These men had nothing to be proud of. Their motive was to
spare their regiment, themselves, and the Army embarrassment. i understand this and, would have probably done the same. Just don't try to force feed me the garbage that they "told the truth."
Most of them did not tell the truth Joe. Not all the time anyway. Each had their own agenda’s, and in each individual case one must look for that agenda before finding any truth to what they may have stated. One of these so called truths concerned Reno’s orders and whether or not Custer would “support him”. Of course we all know today that Custer did not “support him”, and so, quite naturally it was Custer’s fault for not doing so, especially after he stated that he would, right? Wrong.
Custer’s orders were so jumbled up and confusing that by the time the Court really could get to any serious analysis of those orders, in regards to both Reno’s and Benteen’s that all they could do was “follow the leader”. And that leader? None other than the penultimate liar himself, Wallace.
Now some will say that this is all baloney, but all one has to do is look at Girard’s comments concerning Custer’s plan/orders in the late evening/early morning hours of the 24th/25th then go look at what he said concerning Custer “supporting” Reno. Make any sense? What was his motive in each case?
Another example of this was Godfrey’s own statements to the Court. See anything there to actually believe that he was with Benteen’s troops on the 25 of June 1876? One could almost believe that he had been one of those assigned to Pack Train Detail. He contributed absolutely nothing? Why? He and Reno were bitter enemies, if anyone should have had a motive to ferret out Reno, it should have been Godfrey, but all we got from him at the court was “I see nothing, I hear nothing, I know nothing”. Ever wonder wny? YET years later he would go on to publish umpteen articles about his experience there. See the lies yet? Perhaps even their motive?
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 01 2009 : 08:52:52 AM
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You are missing a vital point. The officers did not give completely honest answers for various reasons. look at the evidence. reno swore that he could not move until the packs were up. When they arrived and, ammo was there for the taking, he still waited an hour before pulling out towards the killing field.
The distribution of ammunition was not an issue. The pack mules carrying them were probably the stronger mules. In order to move forward it would require closing up the pack train and carrying each wounded trooper with 6 walking troopers. If one was to believe PVT Peter Thompson (I don't) then Custer was all ready dead. He states he watches the end battle and walks back over 3 miles and meets the advancing Reno. It would take well over an hour to do everything PVT Thompson states after he sees Custer wiped out.
Eagerly (a personal favorite of mine)later wrote that he requested, from Weir, that he be allowed to go back and render aid to Charlie Vincent when he saw poor Charlie being butchered as he rode away.
Some things you do without asking if you really want to do them. My first supervisor stated don't ask if you don't want to hear an answer that you don't like. I think Edgerly was a good officer but acts of bravery are not usually proceeded by a request of permission to do something brave.
Moylan, who spent the entire two days of the siege laying on the ground with his rump in the air had nothing bad to say about Reno.
So from the position you describe that would be accurate on what he could testify to. If you can't see anything you should not testify to anything. Right?
Benteen, who bemoaned over and over and over, "What valley, did you see a valley, hell I could wound up in Kentucky looking for that damn valley had nothing bad to say about Reno.
Except your statement only took place in the aftermath of the battle. Benteen preformed admirably on Reno Hill and there is plenty of testimony to support it. I doubt you could have said that to Benteen's face. Its so easy to pick on a dead officer that can't retaliate.
DeRudio, who was left behind in the timber stated to any who would hear, " if we hadn't be commanded by a coward, we would all be dead."
And what was his sworn testimony? Under examination De Rudio states he left the skirmish line to go into the timber without orders. He states he did not lead but followed troopers that left the skirmish line without orders. When asked if saw any cowardice in Reno. His reply?
Godfrey, who single handedly force his troops to cover his companions retreat from Weir Point by forcing his men use cover fired against the embolden warriors, a man who held his precious army close to his heart, a man who became a General only had this to say about Reno, "he displayed nervous timidity."
You really think that is only thing he had to say or are you trying to mislead to make your point? Godfrey was not afraid of Reno yet read closely what Reno did when Benteen ordered a charge and who was actually on the charge. Hardly an act of timidity.
The civilians who testified had nothing to fear from a military hierarchy; thus, they did not hesitate to speak the truth. Scouts, mule packers, and scouts described Reno as a drunken slob who spent an exorbitant amount of time holding up in a hole (with Weir) during the majority of the time of the siege.
So now you have Weir hiding in a hole. You have no shame. Yet reading the above post apparently Reno wasn't in the hole when the charge was made. Godfrey didn't lie about Reno being on that charge did he?
These men had nothing to be proud of. Their motive was to spare their regiment, themselves, and the Army embarrassment. i understand this and, would have probably done the same. Just don't try to force feed me the garbage that they "told the truth."
You are to full of garbage to need any more feeding. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 01 2009 : 8:53:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by AZ Ranger
You are missing a vital point. The officers did not give completely honest answers for various reasons. look at the evidence. reno swore that he could not move until the packs were up. When they arrived and, ammo was there for the taking, he still waited an hour before pulling out towards the killing field.
The distribution of ammunition was not an issue. The pack mules carrying them were probably the stronger mules. In order to move forward it would require closing up the pack train and carrying each wounded trooper with 6 walking troopers. If one was to believe PVT Peter Thompson (I don't) then Custer was all ready dead. He states he watches the end battle and walks back over 3 miles and meets the advancing Reno. It would take well over an hour to do everything PVT Thompson states after he sees Custer wiped out.
I am appalled that you would make such a statement. The ammo was not an issue?! Reno's excuse for not rendering aid to the men who, eventually, were slain and dismembered on the battlefield was that he could not make a move until the ammo arrived. When it did arrive, Reno waited over an hour to move towards the "sound of fire."
Eagerly (a personal favorite of mine)later wrote that he requested, from Weir, that he be allowed to go back and render aid to Charlie Vincent when he saw poor Charlie being butchered as he rode away.
Some things you do without asking if you really want to do them. My first supervisor stated don't ask if you don't want to hear an answer that you don't like. I think Eagerly was a good officer but acts of bravery are not usually proceeded by a request of permission to do something brave.
I think Edgar was an outstanding officer and I do not wish to condemn him in any manner. However, the truth is this; he rode off and left a wounded trooper to be slaughtered. He followed this act up with a a request (which was denied) to rescue Vincent Charley who he knew perfectly well that the poor soul was dead!
Moylan, who spent the entire two days of the siege laying on the ground with his rump in the air had nothing bad to say about Reno.
So from the position you describe that would be accurate on what he could testify to. If you can't see anything you should not testify to anything. Right?
What this simple means is that a man whose previous record was exemplary could not be proud of his deplorable action.
Benteen, who bemoaned over and over and over, "What valley, did you see a valley, hell I could wound up in Kentucky looking for that damn valley had nothing bad to say about Reno.
Except your statement only took place in the aftermath of the battle. Benteen preformed admirably on Reno Hill and there is plenty of testimony to support it. I doubt you could have said that to Benteen's face. Its so easy to pick on a dead officer that can't retaliate.
Benteen did perform admirable later on. However, do you really believe that he had no idea what his commanding officer expected of him? Do you believe that he really had no notion of which valley he was intended to find? I fyou say yes to these questions then you are truly blind.
DeRudio, who was left behind in the timber stated to any who would hear, " if we hadn't be commanded by a coward, we would all be dead."
And what was his sworn testimony? Under examination De Rudio states he left the skirmish line to go into the timber without orders. He states he did not lead but followed troopers that left the skirmish line without orders. When asked if saw any cowardice in Reno. His reply?
Your naivety regarding "sworn testimony" is completely unsettling for an alleged Police Officer. People lie! Did you not know this? Even under oath.
Godfrey, who single handedly force his troops to cover his companions retreat from Weir Point by forcing his men use cover fired against the embolden warriors, a man who held his precious army close to his heart, a man who became a General only had this to say about Reno, "he displayed nervous timidity."
You really think that is only thing he had to say or are you trying to mislead to make your point? Godfrey was not afraid of Reno yet read closely what Reno did when Benteen ordered a charge and who was actually on the charge. Hardly an act of timidity.
The fact that you feel I am trying to mis-lead the forum speaks volumes. I have to much respect for each and every member to attempt such a childish act.
The civilians who testified had nothing to fear from a military hierarchy; thus, they did not hesitate to speak the truth. Scouts, mule packers, and scouts described Reno as a drunken slob who spent an exorbitant amount of time holding up in a hole (with Weir) during the majority of the time of the siege.
So now you have Weir hiding in a hole. You have no shame. Yet reading the above post apparently Reno wasn't in the hole when the charge was made. Godfrey didn't lie about Reno being on that charge did he?
Please read Liddicks "Vanishing Victory" and peruse the comment that "Reno would have pulled the hole in behind him if he could."
Their motive was to spare their regiment, themselves, and the Army embarrassment. i understand this and, would have probably done the same. Just don't try to force feed me the garbage that they "told the truth."
You are to full of garbage to need any more feeding.
perhaps you are right. I may be full of garbage. However, my trash content has nothing to do with the battle.
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Edited by - joe wiggs on November 01 2009 9:00:17 PM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 02 2009 : 09:23:08 AM
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The distribution of ammunition was not an issue.
I am appalled that you would make such a statement. The ammo was not an issue?! Reno's excuse for not rendering aid to the men who, eventually, were slain and dismembered on the battlefield was that he could not make a move until the ammo arrived. When it did arrive, Reno waited over an hour to move towards the "sound of fire."
To bad you did not read and understand the statement. The ammunition arrived much earlier than the rest of the pack train. The wait for the end of the pack train is what took longer. Most accounts have it strung out for miles.
So I am appalled that you can't understand the sentence. No I am not. I have to much experience reading your posts to be appalled any more.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 04 2009 : 9:04:34 PM
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az, is it possible that you believe that about to face hundreds and hundreds of embolden, furious, determined to defend their families, Sioux warriors that Custer was concerned with the packs that contained;
a. forage;
b. beans;
c. clothing;
e. pork;
f. extra under ware;
g. etc.???
No my friend, the General wanted the ammunition, Benteen's troops and Reno's troops to come to his assistance. At the point of his order to "Come On!", Custer had gathered all the intelligence he needed and, Benteen failed to send a courier regarding; the exact location of the village (Big Village) and, the critical fact that he would need every man possible for this pending endeavor.
The rest of the packs did not mean diddley squat for the impending battle. Unfortunately, you are unable to comprehend this "possibility thus, you think me appalling for posting as I have. That's your major Mal function, you know enough about this battle to start arguments but, not enough to come to a reasonable hypothesis unless the conclusion is solely yours.
As long as you and dc find my efforts "appalling" I know I'm on the right track. Were it any other member of this forum I would take stock of my efforts and try to re-group. However, If you truly think (that in a state of emergency) Custer's need for beans was paramount, than brother you need to give it up..
P.s. I always read your statements carefully, I just find it difficult to understand where they hatched. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 05 2009 : 01:07:20 AM
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First how do you see any order to Reno to go to Custer. All accounts state in general that Custer stated he would support Reno and Reno was to take the advance movement to contact. Since you claim to have been a Marine Corps officer or at least started to be one (since I could not tell from your post) then explain how the advance assignment moving to contact is then expected to support the main body.
Since Custer had not fired a shot and the Indians were fighting with Reno who had troops expending ammunition who needed ammunition more?
Finally how many troopers were with the pack train? Do you think they could have been some help? My guess is the total is close to battalion size that Reno and Benteen each had. Equivalent to three companies.
Custer could not have wanted ammunition and continued on past MTC. He would be traveling faster then pack train. Remember Martin stated Custer was at the gallop. The pack train moved at walk. So unless Custer sat still he could not have expected the pack train to catch up.
If you believe PVT Thompson, Custer was dead one hour before he met Reno's command near Weir point and the pack train was still not to Weir Point.
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - November 05 2009 : 02:14:08 AM
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quote:
Since Custer had not fired a shot and the Indians were fighting with Reno who had troops expending ammunition who needed ammunition more?
How do you know this? In fact how does anyone know this? Get on your horse and "gallop from Reno Hill to LSH, HOW LONG, none of this figuring crap, in your own experience, HOW LONG?
quote:
Finally how many troopers were with the pack train?
Its a trick question, right? Ok, lets go ball park average at first and see if it mattered or not. Mathey's company, McDougall's company, and 6 men X 12 companies = 72 men. This when added to together would have been in the neighborhood of 40men X 2 company's = 80 men + 72 men which would have equalled, (about) 152 combat active troopers with the pack train, In effect about 4 company's were with the pack train.
quote:
Do you think they could have been some help?
YUP, 4 companies would have made one hell of a difference. AND YOUR GUESS...
quote:
My guess is the total is close to battalion size that Reno and Benteen each had. Equivalent to three companies.
quote:
Custer could not have wanted ammunition and continued on past MTC.
Care to try this one again? Or is this that Gray crapola all over again? And if it is: What the hell was Kanipe doing out there with a message telling Benteen and the pack train commanders to hurry the pacs up, and to the effect that if they were coming off to cut them off, and to in effect again, stop for nothing? And cut across country..... TO WHOM? And you're still saying Reno? BS. Total BS, Reno knew that, Benteen for certain knew that because he was supposed to have done the same thing, and that Kanipe's orders was also intended for. Yet he nonchalantely dismisses this at the COI. Hell yes that order was for him also. Eveyone thinks that - that "afterthought" remark was just a little add on feature to tell Benteen WHAT? Think again, if he (Custer) was going to tell the pack train that, then they (Custer's troops) had to have been in dire straits, and Custer is telling the pack train to hurry up, to cut any loose that cause problems, to stop for nothing and cut across country to HIM... not Reno... HIM, and in that same word and breath he uttered whose name in associaton with those orders?
Now read that message again and apply the same thing to Benteen, because that stupid SOB had that same order and he damn well knew it when he did "stop for something", didn't he? |
Edited by - Benteen on November 05 2009 02:39:18 AM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 06 2009 : 07:49:57 AM
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quote:
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Since Custer had not fired a shot and the Indians were fighting with Reno who had troops expending ammunition who needed ammunition more?
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How do you know this? In fact how does anyone know this? Get on your horse and "gallop from Reno Hill to LSH, HOW LONG, none of this figuring crap, in your own experience, HOW LONG?
From Martin regarding the firing of Custer's battalion from the time he left. We caught them napping etc. From numerous witness accounts of troopers firing in the valley in Reno's battalion.
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 06 2009 : 07:58:30 AM
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Get on your horse and "gallop from Reno Hill to LSH, HOW LONG, none of this figuring crap, in your own experience, HOW LONG?
The question is inncorrect. How long would it take for a worn out mule to move the distance under fire. To many people drive the battlefield and think how close the distance because they drive. Try walking it which is about right for a mule speed and have have hundreds of persons trying to stop you. Then ask how long would it take.
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 06 2009 : 08:09:41 AM
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quote:
Its a trick question, right? Ok, lets go ball park average at first and see if it mattered or not. Mathey's company, McDougall's company, and 6 men X 12 companies = 72 men. This when added to together would have been in the neighborhood of 40men X 2 company's = 80 men + 72 men which would have equalled, (about) 152 combat active troopers with the pack train, In effect about 4 company's were with the pack train.
See you want us to believe that you deal in facts alone. There were 12 companies in the regiment Custer had 5 (C,E,F,I,L) leaving 7 others, Reno had 3 (A,G,M) leaving 4 others, Benteen had 3 (D,H,K) leaving 1, and McDougall had 1 (B) leaving 0.
Which company did Mathey have? Now we see why there is a reason to challenge what you call fact. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
Edited by - AZ Ranger on November 06 2009 08:12:55 AM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 06 2009 : 08:23:24 AM
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This is a very good point. Did Benteen lie about Mathey's company. I don't think so. I think he believed what he wrote in his account(post). I am also sure that if he sat and figured who had which companies he would come up 13 if Mathey had one company and realized something was wrong. I would guess that Benteen has spent more time studying this battle then all the survivors put together. I don't know how long it has been since Benteen has looked at the company break down but we know that some of the witnesses were testifying from recollection of several years past.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 06 2009 : 08:28:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Benteen
quote:
Since Custer had not fired a shot and the Indians were fighting with Reno who had troops expending ammunition who needed ammunition more?
How do you know this? In fact how does anyone know this? Get on your horse and "gallop from Reno Hill to LSH, HOW LONG, none of this figuring crap, in your own experience, HOW LONG?
quote:
Finally how many troopers were with the pack train?
Its a trick question, right? Ok, lets go ball park average at first and see if it mattered or not. Mathey's company, McDougall's company, and 6 men X 12 companies = 72 men. This when added to together would have been in the neighborhood of 40men X 2 company's = 80 men + 72 men which would have equalled, (about) 152 combat active troopers with the pack train, In effect about 4 company's were with the pack train.
quote:
Do you think they could have been some help?
YUP, 4 companies would have made one hell of a difference. AND YOUR GUESS...
quote:
My guess is the total is close to battalion size that Reno and Benteen each had. Equivalent to three companies.
quote:
Custer could not have wanted ammunition and continued on past MTC.
Care to try this one again? Or is this that Gray crapola all over again? And if it is: What the hell was Kanipe doing out there with a message telling Benteen and the pack train commanders to hurry the pacs up, and to the effect that if they were coming off to cut them off, and to in effect again, stop for nothing? And cut across country..... TO WHOM? And you're still saying Reno? BS. Total BS, Reno knew that, Benteen for certain knew that because he was supposed to have done the same thing, and that Kanipe's orders was also intended for. Yet he nonchalantely dismisses this at the COI. Hell yes that order was for him also. Eveyone thinks that - that "afterthought" remark was just a little add on feature to tell Benteen WHAT? Think again, if he (Custer) was going to tell the pack train that, then they (Custer's troops) had to have been in dire straits, and Custer is telling the pack train to hurry up, to cut any loose that cause problems, to stop for nothing and cut across country to HIM... not Reno... HIM, and in that same word and breath he uttered whose name in associaton with those orders?
Now read that message again and apply the same thing to Benteen, because that stupid SOB had that same order and he damn well knew it when he did "stop for something", didn't he?
Maybe Kanipe was looking for Mathey's company. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 06 2009 : 09:52:56 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by AZ Ranger
First how do you see any order to Reno to go to Custer.
Despite Reno's subsequent renege on his original, official report, he heard the sound of firing coming from Custer's battlefield. Do you honestly believe that when soldiers are being slaughtered that we should look for a specific order to render aid? How was the order to be sent and retrieved?
All accounts state in general that Custer stated he would support Reno and Reno was to take the advance movement to contact. Since you claim to have been a Marine Corps officer or at least started to be one (since I could not tell from your post) then explain how the advance assignment moving to contact is then expected to support the main body.
Apparently you are unaware (not surprisingly) that combat is a constantly changing, fluid set of events that must be dealt with as they occur. There are no standing orders that can be issued for every possible event. Coming to the aid of your fellow troops is one "standing order" that honor demands that be carried out.
Since Custer had not fired a shot and the Indians were fighting with Reno who had troops expending ammunition who needed ammunition more?
What books are you reading? Every school boy knows that within ten minutes of Reno's gallant "charge" and arrival to sanctuary the Indians left his military front and scampered away towards Custer's position.
Finally how many troopers were with the pack train? Do you think they could have been some help? My guess is the total is close to battalion size that Reno and Benteen each had. Equivalent to three companies.
I'm not sure and, I am too lazy to look it up in my resource library. However, I believe approximately 80 men would be an appropriate guess. Are you suggesting that 80+ able bodied men would not have been of some help. If so, this may be the most bizarre statement you have posted as yet and, that's saying a lot!
Custer could not have wanted ammunition and continued on past MTC. He would be traveling faster then pack train. Remember Martin stated Custer was at the gallop. The pack train moved at walk. So unless Custer sat still he could not have expected the pack train to catch up.
Wow!!! I can't believe that you still don't get it.
When Custer ordered the ammo. all guess work, speculation, and what-ifs were concluded. he now knew the EXACT location of the village and, its disposition. he also knew that the packs were strung out as they had been so since the beginning of the mission, hence the order to hurry.
If you believe PVT Thompson, Custer was dead one hour before he met Reno's command near Weir point and the pack train was still not to Weir Point.
Hello!!!No one cares where the pack train was!!! It's the ammo pacts that were critical. Can't you see that? Can you not realize that they could be cut loose and hurried forward?
No disrespect to Thompson who I believe encountered some harrowing experiences after his mount went down but, his story was certainly embellished to the point of incredulous truth stretching. So, I don't believe him. I do see how you would if you thought it would help to support one of your inane theories.
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Edited by - joe wiggs on November 06 2009 09:56:06 AM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 07 2009 : 09:19:03 AM
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Hello!!!No one cares where the pack train was!!! It's the ammo pacts that were critical. Can't you see that? Can you not realize that they could be cut loose and hurried forward?
No disrespect to Thompson who I believe encountered some harrowing experiences after his mount went down but, his story was certainly embellished to the point of incredulous truth stretching. So, I don't believe him. I do see how you would if you thought it would help to support one of your inane theories.
Really so the Indians accounts of plenty of ammunition found when battling Custer are lies? I think Custer still had ammunition when the battalion was all dead.
If Custer wanted ammunition he could have waited for it. Explain how Custer moving at a gallop expected ammunition packs on mules to catch up. If five companies got wiped out what were the chances of the mules getting to Custer rather than the thousands of Indians? |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 07 2009 : 09:29:26 AM
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The rear guard was to remain with the packtrain that is it duty. Each of the companies had men assigned to the pack train. Just how many men do you think were with the ammunition mules. Neither Mathey or McDougall ever saw Benteen at the morass because they were so far behind.
If you believe Kanipe stating they were to cut loose packs slowing down the pack train which would be cut?
a. forage;
b. beans;
c. clothing;
e. pork;
f. extra under ware;
g. etc.???
Do you think they would cut ammunition packs to supply the Indians with ammunition? |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - November 07 2009 : 11:34:40 AM
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Lets try it this way Ranger. How many Indians do you suppose there was attacking Custer, and put that in terms of odds... in other words convert the numbers into odds. Back in 1876 anything over 3 to 1 odds and if your position was being flanked, you were toast.
Now go back to Reno's valley fight and figure out how long they stayed there on the SL on an average. That total is somewhere in the vicinity of 30 minutes. Each trooper firing 3 rounds a minute, once every 20 seconds would easily expend 90 rounds of ammo in 30 minutes. And in an hour?
Now go on and talk about judicious use of ammo of those who were facing the odds you state. Coup sticks anyone? |
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Responsibility At Little Bighorn
