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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - September 05 2008 : 4:32:16 PM
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AZ, reading the accounts of some of the Indians facing Reno when
he had come out of the timber heading for the bluffs, they had
actually began to backed off, because they thought the soldiers
were charging them. |
Sgtmajor |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 07 2008 : 8:02:17 PM
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SgtMajor,
When the troopers burst from the timber in a frenzy, for one moment in time, the warriors got spooked. Believing that the soldiers were on the attack they pulled back only to see the command go blistering past them, wide eyes soldiers clinging precariously to their mounts. made deliriously happen by this sudden and, unanticipated, change of events the warriors became engaged in a "fox hunt" wherein 35 of Reno's soldiers were needlessly lost. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 07 2008 : 8:31:02 PM
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Try getting your fatality figures correct:
O EM
Skirmish line 0 2
In the timber 0 7
Run to river 1 14
Scaling Bluff 2 9
More enlisted men were killed on the Reno-Benteen hilltop fight on 25th and 26th then the charge to the river.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 07 2008 : 9:05:23 PM
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The problem with Indian causality figures is they have to know the name of Indian or it doesn't count. The cavalry had list of names before and after the battle.
If the Indians knew of 12 fatalities how many were causalties of the valley that died later? I could easily be that the Reno's gave more than they got in the final analysis.
Buffalo to this day still injure and kill people.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 08 2008 : 07:29:22 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by AZ Ranger
Try getting your fatality figures correct:
O EM
Skirmish line 0 2
In the timber 0 7
Run to river 1 14
Scaling Bluff 2 9
More enlisted men were killed on the Reno-Benteen hilltop fight on 25th and 26th then the charge to the river.
Joe Wiggs
AZ, come on!!! The "charge" was several minutes in duration. the siege was two days! Need I comment further?
AZ Ranger
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 08 2008 : 07:32:54 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by AZ Ranger
The problem with Indian causality figures is they have to know the name of Indian or it doesn't count. The cavalry had list of names before and after the battle.
If the Indians knew of 12 fatalities how many were causalties of the valley that died later? I could easily be that the Reno's gave more than they got in the final analysis.
Buffalo to this day still injure and kill people.
Joe Wiggs
Correct, and buffalo to this day have nothing to do with the battle nor Our discussion of it so, what's your point humor?
AZ Ranger
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 08 2008 : 09:44:05 AM
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The point is you wanted to make it look like Reno suffered 35 losses in the charge to the river. He didn't. Most think that a buffalo hunt etc means one side receives losses and the other does not. That didn't happen either.
14:6 minimum, fatalities
120:480 ratio of individuals
.05:.03 number of fatalities inflicted to the enemy per individual of cavalry:Indian
Not a joke Joe buffalo are one the most dangerous non predator big game species. Whereas your "fox hunt" is truly not relevant. Did Indians hunt foxes horseback. Do foxes run in packs? Besides rabies does a fox attack and kill people? Have you been around buffalo very much?
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 08 2008 : 5:05:20 PM
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| Want I wanted AZ is known only to me. What I did was report a fact. How you perceive and translate that fact is personal only to you. No, I have not been around buffalo a whole lot although they are indigenous to Oklahoma. Relevancy, like beauty, is in the eye/mind of the beholder/thinker. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 08 2008 : 7:00:07 PM
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What you posted 35 fatals in the charge was not fact. Fact is 14. Tell how it was like a "fox hunt" in your own words?
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 09 2008 : 5:48:33 PM
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| The term "Fox Hunt" is a descriptive term very similar to "Buffalo Hunt" which infers that in both instances, one party's actions (the Fox's inability to protect himself and soldiers running away blindly and in chaos)led to their utter defeat and demise. |
Edited by - joe wiggs on September 09 2008 5:49:20 PM |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 09 2008 : 8:02:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by AZ Ranger
The point is you wanted to make it look like Reno suffered 35 losses in the charge to the river. He didn't. Most think that a buffalo hunt etc means one side receives losses and the other does not. That didn't happen either.
Joe Wiggs
"Reno then decided that the position in the woods would was no longer tenable and ordered a "charge" to the bluffs across the river. This disgraceful retreat resulted resulted in the death of thirty-five troopers."
Chapter two, Valley Fight-Hokahey! A Good Day to Die - Richard G. Hardorff
Joe Wiggs
"About half of Reno's shattered column had made it to the bluffs unscathed. Twenty-nine enlisted men and three officers lay dead in the valley below.
(Please include scouts Dorman and Reynolds for a count of 34.)
A Terrible Glory, Donovan p.248
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 09 2008 : 9:01:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joe wiggs
The term "Fox Hunt" is a descriptive term very similar to "Buffalo Hunt" which infers that in both instances, one party's actions (the Fox's inability to protect himself and soldiers running away blindly and in chaos)led to their utter defeat and demise.
Apparently you are not much of a hunter and have never participated in a buffalo hunt or a fox hunt. A fox is a predator and kills things for a living and is not a herd animal. The buffalo is a very large prey species and is a herd animal.
If you think fox hunting and buffalo hunting is the same that explains a lot.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 09 2008 : 9:29:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joe wiggs
quote:
Originally posted by AZ Ranger
The point is you wanted to make it look like Reno suffered 35 losses in the charge to the river. He didn't. Most think that a buffalo hunt etc means one side receives losses and the other does not. That didn't happen either.
Joe Wiggs
"Reno then decided that the position in the woods would was no longer tenable and ordered a "charge" to the bluffs across the river. This disgraceful retreat resulted resulted in the death of thirty-five troopers."
Chapter two, Valley Fight-Hokahey! A Good Day to Die - Richard G. Hardorff
Joe Wiggs
"About half of Reno's shattered column had made it to the bluffs unscathed. Twenty-nine enlisted men and three officers lay dead in the valley below.
(Please include scouts Dorman and Reynolds for a count of 34.)
A Terrible Glory, Donovan p.248
So now you want to add Dorman and Reynolds to the buffalos but not the Indian Scouts. Are you decriminating?
You keep using inaccurate or misleading accounts of who died in the charge. It is a false statement that 35 died in the charge or even in the total retreat. Nine died in total on the skirmish line and in the timber. Is that clear enough. The valley numbers they attempt to use includes the skirmish line, the timber, and the hillside which is not part of the charge so it is misleading to use the total as the fatalities in the charge. I think it strecth to include the eleven on the hillside as dying in the valley. No one claims the horses were charging at any time after reaching the river.
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - September 11 2008 : 8:14:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by AZ Ranger
quote:
Originally posted by joe wiggs
quote:
Originally posted by AZ Ranger
The point is you wanted to make it look like Reno suffered 35 losses in the charge to the river. He didn't. Most think that a buffalo hunt etc means one side receives losses and the other does not. That didn't happen either.
Joe Wiggs
"Reno then decided that the position in the woods would was no longer tenable and ordered a "charge" to the bluffs across the river. This disgraceful retreat resulted resulted in the death of thirty-five troopers."
Chapter two, Valley Fight-Hokahey! A Good Day to Die - Richard G. Hardorff
Joe Wiggs
"About half of Reno's shattered column had made it to the bluffs unscathed. Twenty-nine enlisted men and three officers lay dead in the valley below.
(Please include scouts Dorman and Reynolds for a count of 34.)
A Terrible Glory, Donovan p.248
So now you want to add Dorman and Reynolds to the buffalos but not the Indian Scouts. Are you decriminating?
You keep using inaccurate or misleading accounts of who died in the charge. It is a false statement that 35 died in the charge or even in the total retreat. Nine died in total on the skirmish line and in the timber. Is that clear enough. The valley numbers they attempt to use includes the skirmish line, the timber, and the hillside which is not part of the charge so it is misleading to use the total as the fatalities in the charge. I think it strecth to include the eleven on the hillside as dying in the valley. No one claims the horses were charging at any time after reaching the river.
Joe Wiggs
Absolutely amazing. I quote directly from pages that are listed by page number, author, and book. You respond by not reading the information,obviously,or you wouldn't claim that I used information (It is not my information, it came from BOOKS!) that is "inaccurate" and "mis-leading". Should not your accusations be cast against those who wrote these facts rather than the one who posted them? Prove that these gentlemen are using inaccurate information. Do so and I will gladly eat humble pie with pleasure. AZ,disagree me if you will. I'm fine with that. Diagreements make for great discussions.
However, I do find it incredulous that you recently posted several names of soldiers who testified on Reno's behalf and, not those who did not. Is that not an example of "mis-leading" information?
Find my reference points, type them up yourself, then show the forum where I have mis-led you. Otherwise, point you finger of accusation against the authors who wrote them. I did not have the time to research the names of each individual who died. Three Ree scouts also died which puts the number well over 35. The same number you claim was false.
I have attempted to match your every response with factual information. I believe I have done a credible job. When you post something on this particular thread that is factual I will not hesitate to agree with you. Understand, while your perspectives are informative and credible that does not mean that you are right my friend.
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Edited by - joe wiggs on September 11 2008 8:18:32 PM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 12 2008 : 02:18:13 AM
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[b]Joe Wiggs
Absolutely amazing. I quote directly from pages that are listed by page number, author, and book. You respond by not reading the information,obviously,or you wouldn't claim that I used information (It is not my information, it came from BOOKS!) that is "inaccurate" and "mis-leading". Should not your accusations be cast against those who wrote these facts rather than the one who posted them? Prove that these gentlemen are using inaccurate information. Do so and I will gladly eat humble pie with pleasure. AZ,disagree me if you will. I'm fine with that. Diagreements make for great discussions.
Your logic that I might have thought it was your information and not from books escapes me. Please explain.
I will not give you a free ride to put out information just because it is in a book. I will challenge it if I think it is inaccurate. I posted the numbers of where they died.
Is it Donovan's contention that these fatalities would not have occurred had they stayed in the timber? I say that is hogwash. Crazy Horse was just arriving and troopers were going to die. He was going to charge the timber but Reno pulled out saving himself from total destruction.
I believe Donovan intentionally mislead if he blames 35 deaths on the retreat. A Sgt died on the line is he was one of the 35? Seven died in the timber including Bloody knife are they part of the 35? This was not part of the retreat. For those numbers alone then an additional 35 would have to have died after they left the timber for it to be a correct statement. More importantly we have been discussing the charge and it does not have anywhere near the fatality numbers that can be pointed out as having been done poorly. The charge ended at the river and the steep banks made it impossible for horsemen to provide any defense better than they did in my opinion. You must jump in the river on the run to get the horse to do it. That is what they did. You could not reform horse troops on the other side because of the steepness and the fact that there were Indians on that bank also. You could not shoot back to cover the troops in the river because the Indians had all closed into the ranks of the troops. That is what happens in charges. Can you imagine these great marksmen shooting into the mixture of thrashing horses and riders.
However, I do find it incredulous that you recently posted several names of soldiers who testified on Reno's behalf and, not those who did not. Is that not an example of "mis-leading" information?
Joe again your logic in that statement baffles me. My response was to Brent's statement that he could find none to support Reno's action. Why would you think it necessary to provide statements to Brent that he all ready knew. So no it is not and example of my misleading but is a perfect example of your misleading.
Find my reference points, type them up yourself, then show the forum where I have mis-led you. Otherwise, point you finger of accusation against the authors who wrote them. I did not have the time to research the names of each individual who died. Three Ree scouts also died which puts the number well over 35. The same number you claim was false.
Joe you keep providing more information to show that your reference to Donovan is misleading by your own knowledge. How in heck do blame the Ree's death on Reno decision to leave the valley? So now you have added 3 more to numbers that did not die from Reno's retreat.
Here is an example of proof that you mislead:
Posted - September 07 2008 : 8:02:17 PM
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SgtMajor,
When the troopers burst from the timber in a frenzy, for one moment in time, the warriors got spooked. Believing that the soldiers were on the attack they pulled back only o see the command go blistering past them, wide eyes soldiers clinging precariously to their mounts. made deliriously happen by this suddent and, unanticipated, change of events the warriors became engaged in a "fox hunt" wherein 35 of Reno's soldiers were needlessly lost.
The above post is yours and the bold is your words and you do not give credit in it to any source. You say "fox hunt" wherein 35 of Reno's soldiers were needlessly lost that is misleading.
I have attempted to match your every response with factual information. I believe I have done a credible job. When you post something on this particular thread that is factual I will not hesitate to agree with you. Understand, while your perspectives are informative and credible that does not mean that you are right my friend.
Joe it is not factual just because it is in a book. So no you have not always matched my responses with factual information.
I have never claimed to be always right. There are posts on this forum where I have stated that I erred. What I do is have a position that I do not call someone a coward or action completely inappropriate without facts to support it. So when I see statements are made such as yours below I will challenge it.
quote:
Believing that the soldiers were on the attack they pulled back only to see the command go blistering past them, wide eyes soldiers clinging precariously to their mounts. made deliriously happen by this suddent and, unanticipated, change of events the warriors became engaged in a "fox hunt" wherein 35 of Reno's soldiers were needlessly lost
Do you still believe 35 died as you describe in you own post?
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 12 2008 : 5:07:26 PM
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I know that it ain't necessarily true that anything printed in a book is factual. More importantly, you know that I know it. Therefore, you needless reminder to do so is well noted. Again, for clarification. I posted information that came from a book. I did not create the information. I never claimed I created the information. I utilized that information to support a position I believe to be true. Something you and, countless others, have done in the past and will continue to do. For reasons that escape me,you chose to personalize this information by insinuating I was "mis-leading. It was at that point I took a little umbrage at what I perceived to be unwarrant on your part.
I have merely requested that you address the authors of this information if you have such a gigantic problem with the information as you seem to have. As neither of us rank as an expert in this field of study, our obstinacy (I include myself) serves only one purpose; to force the other members of the forum to regurgitate from the nausea of this meaningless debate. Ease up a little buddy, you're taking this way to serious.  |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 12 2008 : 5:12:49 PM
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| PS. I forgot, yes I still believe that 35 men died in Reno's famous "charge" due to the information I obtained and gave to you. Why would I change my mind. You have given me no reason for doing so. Another thing AZ, I have said repeatedly over and over that there were no cowards at the battle. Reno's actions were deployable. Yet you inferred that I called a member of the battle a coward. That Sir is not true and well you know it! |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 12 2008 : 9:25:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joe wiggs
PS. I forgot, yes I still believe that 35 men died in Reno's famous "charge" due to the information I obtained and gave to you. Why would I change my mind. You have given me no reason for doing so. Another thing AZ, I have said repeatedly over and over that there were no cowards at the battle. Reno's actions were deployable. Yet you inferred that I called a member of the battle a coward. That Sir is not true and well you know it!
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 12 2008 : 9:48:41 PM
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I will rest my case that you intend to mislead because you still maintain 35 died in the charge from the timber. You include the Rees so state what part of the Reno's formation were they in? Sargent O'Hara was on foot on the skirmish line and the first trooper to be shot which before they entered the timber. Joe so you don't try to weasal out of your misleading statement by changing it to the whole event from the time he first crossed the rive SgtMajor,
I will remind you and any others what you stated:
SgtMajor,
When the troopers burst from the timber in a frenzy, for one moment in time, the warriors got spooked. Believing that the soldiers were on the attack they pulled back only to see the command go blistering past them, wide eyes soldiers clinging precariously to their mounts. made deliriously happen by this sudden and, unanticipated, change of events the warriors became engaged in a "fox hunt" wherein 35 of Reno's soldiers were needlessly lost.
Also you can't have it both ways now you want people to believe that I know what you know?
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 14 2008 : 11:29:25 AM
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What both ways? Are you nuts? That blaring banner you posted is mine and, I have never denied it. The term "Fox Hunt" you assiduously refer to is mine also. It is a metaphor, similar to "buffalo hunt." Again, my friend, this statement is based upon "resources" that you refuse to acknowledge. Why? Because you don't agree with them. You have a tendency to disregard facts that do not support your premises. Sound familiar?
As to my statement, I chose the word "needlessly" when referring to the death of these men. That is commonly referred to as an "opinion", surely you know what that is. I used this term because Reno failed to utilize a standard, prescribed military tactic to protect his men. You are a military man, do you or do you not agree that Reno failed to use a standard tactic?
Again, Read your own blaring re-cap of my statement. I did not write that the men died in the charge from the timber (you wrote that and attributed it to me). I made note that the the soldiers burst from the timber and, initially, the Indians held back then, and only then, did the battle become a "Fox Hunt".
An amazing note! I use credible sources and you rant and rave about refusing to believe something "just because it came from a book?" Who are we to believe? You! Where else do we get information from AZ? You speak of "weaseling out" as though someone appointed you as the "Guardian of the Forum." Duty bound to protect all of the members from curs like me. The members of this forum don't need you to protect them. They are perfectly capable of doing so themselves. Besides, Dark Cloud has already appointed himself for that position.
You make up words and assign them to me then chastise me for saying them. You have yet to address my request from your earlier post to show where I called Reno a coward, yet you inferred I did. You have yet to show any credible proof that Donavan and Hardorff are wrong, yet you say they are. Hell, you even blame me for making up the information even though I acknowledged the locations of the sources.
What if Reno himself agreed with me? What then AZ. Would you say that he was trying to "weasel" out of something?
The Reno Court of Inquiry
EXHIBIT NO. Reno's Official Report:
"In this "charge" 1st. lt. B.H. Hodgeson and, 1st. lt. Donald McIntosh and, Surgeon J. M. DeWolf were killed. I succeeded in reaching the top pf the bluff with a loss of three officers and twenty-nine enlisted men killed (32) and seven men wounded."
This, of course, does not include Dorman, Reynolds, and the three Ree Scouts;37 losses.
The critical words here (pardon this weasel for opining) is Reno's statement "In this charge" which has nothing to do with losses that occurred on the skirmish line nor after his arrival on the bluffs. In other words AZ, it is you who are wrong.
Custer's Luck Edgar I. Stewart
"Indicative of Reno's complete loss of control is the fact that no attempt was made by those who had gained the eastern bank to cover the crossing in any way or to protect and aid the men whose horses were still plunging and rearing in the stream."
Regarding my metaphor "Fox Hunt"
"As a result of these obstacles, the battalion (Reno's) got jammed and soon lost semblance of organization. the horses were frantic with fear and excitement and out of control, and several troopers jumped into the stream never to be seen again. The crossing, which would have been difficult enough under ordinary conditions, was made doubly so by the fact that it was made under sniper fire of the Indians on the bluffs, and a few of the hostiles even rode across the stream in pursuit of the fleeing enemy, clubbing the troopers and pulling them from their saddles."
Another metaphor could suffice here, "Shooting fish in a barrel."
Az wants the world to believe that I just make things up and believe everything that is written in a book! Not everything. I do give credibility to information researched by men who, thankfully, dedicate their lives to such research and, who in turn, share that information with us. Where do you get your information from AZ. Please do not assume that I do not possess the same intellectual skills as yourself to discern credible information from the sublime and ridiculous, it only makes you appear pompous.
Once again I reintegrate, Reno was not a coward. A moment of sudden fear does not a coward make. However, unlike you, history will hold him accountable for that moment. You have chosen to defend the much maligned Major, that is your choice. You have chosen an extremely difficult position if not an impossible one. A position wherein there are few positives for you to reinforce your perspective, other than calling me a weazel...
I have spent five years engaged with an egotistical, self-appointed, potentate of the forum who insist that he is always right. An individual who will not debate facts (he has few) but, will personalize issues by utilizing innuendo's that are crude and unnecessary. History repeats itself. |
Edited by - joe wiggs on September 14 2008 12:07:21 PM |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 14 2008 : 12:08:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Odd. This sounds so familiar.
No comments from the peanut gallery if you please. |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 14 2008 : 12:12:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by AZ Ranger
You keep using inaccurate or misleading accounts of who died in the charge. It is a false statement that 35 died in the charge or even in the total retreat. Nine died in total on the skirmish line and in the timber. Is that clear enough. The valley numbers they attempt to use includes the skirmish line, the timber, and the hillside which is not part of the charge so it is misleading to use the total as the fatalities in the charge. I think it strecth to include the eleven on the hillside as dying in the valley. No one claims the horses were charging at any time after reaching the river.
Joe Wiggs
Three officer , 29 enlisted men, 2 scouts (Reynolds and Dorman), and three Ree scouts died in the retreat. This does not and, never has, included the skirmish line nor the bluffs. Please do further research before lodging complaints of inacuracies against others.
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Edited by - joe wiggs on September 14 2008 12:14:04 PM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 14 2008 : 2:11:13 PM
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My complaint about you remains the same as it is from others. You make statements then weasel out. It is all here still for anyone to look at. Joe what you are listing is the total from the beginning charge down the valley and includes the skirmish line,the timber, the charge out of the timber, the river crossing and and climbing the hill to Reno Hill. I knew you were going trying weasel out of your statement and use the total trooper fatalities and you have proved me right. Those figures you quote are not for the single event of exiting the timber and charging to the river crossing.
In Reno's official report he is first reporting that three officers died in the charge to the river(MacIntosh), crossing the river(Hodgson) and climbing the hillside(De Wolfe) but these three deaths occurred after leaving the timber. The next sentence is the total loss after reforming on the hilltop from the time he went down the valley in the beginning. It is not what you claim that these occurred in the charge as you describe. On the hillside the companies reported losses of troopers to Reno for the whole action. In order for you to be correct Reno would have not reported in his official report any losses before leaving the timber. Find in his report where he lists Sgt.O'Hara, Bloody Knife, the two troopers Wallace said he saw killed and the one he heard in the timber, the trooper killed in Company A observed by Moylan and the Sgt that De Rudio saw killed. These plus numerous other casualties occurred before leaving the timber.
If you need to know each name of who died and where just log on as Realbird and Fred could probably give them to you.
AZ Ranger
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
Edited by - AZ Ranger on September 14 2008 2:54:19 PM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 14 2008 : 2:35:55 PM
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The first fatalities and casualties are important because they have an impact on making the decision to leave the timber. The charge to the river is important because others feel that it could have been done better.
I am not sure if anyone would argue that entering the river and crossing it could be done better or the climbing of the hillside with a horse.
The retrograde was composed of three parts in my view:
- charging
- river crossing
- climbing the hillside to the rally point
Considering that the last two are a result of how you arrive at the river the charge to the river is the key. Crazy Horse was coming and timing is important. In the charge revolvers are empty according to both sides by time they reach the river and due to the nature of a charge the troops are mixed with Indians.
It is a jump off a steep bank and then a climb one at time out the other side and up the hill. Indians are on both sides of the river and among the troops.
AZ Ranger
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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Responsibility At Little Bighorn
