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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - February 21 2006 : 1:20:48 PM
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Please note: "most of the IRA and Orangemen ARE fascist in inclination" is not saying ALL of the IRA and Orangemen, nor yet saying all the Irish. Nor do I equate Germans and Nazis. I suppose that you read the IRA and Irish as interchangeable says something.
WWII was about much more than nationalist ego, and everyone then knew it. If England had fallen, Ireland would have been a slave state, because the Irish - like the Slav - are not 'German.' Not hyperbole, literally worked to death. That's not hysteria, either. That's what the Nazis did everywhere they could. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 21 2006 : 2:43:37 PM
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"I suppose that you read the IRA and Irish as interchangeable says something."
If that's directed at me I don't follow it. Germans were certainly aware that the British stood by in the mid-19th century, doing nothing while so much of Ireland starved and while most of it's humanity evaporated to U.S. shores. Germany tried to exploit the ongoing Irish rebellion with, I think, limited success in the first war.
As for fascism, Ian Paisley might be a prime example to support the statement that Orangemen are inclined toward fascism--in the sense of it being directed at Catholicism. Radical and brutal as they've been, I don't know that the IRA or Sinn Fein have been inclined toward fascism. You might argue Xenophobic or nationalistic, but Fascism? Doubtful. |
Bob Bostwick |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 21 2006 : 3:43:26 PM
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I certainly agree with Paisley, but I'd claim it for the IRA as well. Fascism is an organized hypocrisy, the out of many one from the Roman sticks, but in reality mere one man rule. They legitimize right by might and speak in populist terms and are heavy, heavy, heavy on past supposed greatness. In regards to the latter, they emphasize or even fabricate mysticisms and mythologies to justify it. I believe the IRA is guilty of all of that, and the way they whitewash supposed martyrs I offer as evidence; their musical tributes indistinguishable from The Horst Wessel Song. Well, no, everyone likes the Irish songs. But, in content and intent, the same. They just have been terribly unsuccessful at moving beyond the street gang level.
In a strict sense, the Catholic Church in power is fascist, and certainly it came to quick accord with the two most famous actual fascist powers. And the Church and the IRA have been uneasy bedfellows. Certainly we see in the US what a horror show it would be if Pat Robertson or his rivals and ilk made it to the top, so that's not a sectarian slam. All cults organized as pyramids are fascist. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 21 2006 : 4:17:48 PM
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I agree with most of your argument, but not all of your summation. One might compare, tactically, Sinn Fein/IRA with Nazis/Brownshirts, but even that's a real stretch.
Sinn Fein and the IRA have had only one goal: A united Ireland. Of course, that means getting British rule, if not all Brits, off the island. Still, this is a far cry from political rule that would require a dictator and mystical, mythological reverence toward the central government. Sinn Fein appears ultra liberal rather than fascist---redistribution of wealth, women's rights (big deal in Ireland), welfare for the aged, ect.
To be fascist, Sinn Fein and the IRA would need a Hitler-Mussolini-Pinochet-Franco-Suharta-Marcos-Tojo.... Fact is, they've never had one and Gerry Adams sure as hell doesn't fit the bill.
Paisley, on the other hand, does. He'd shoot every Catholic on the island if he could get away with it and then, maybe, turn toward the Jews. In fact, he's gotten away with a hell of a lot.
As for the Catholic Church, of course it gets along with dictators. There is no organization anywhere in the world that relates better to absolute power at the top.
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Bob Bostwick |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 21 2006 : 5:09:38 PM
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I'm with you on Paisley, a disgusting creature.
Well, I'd only say that what fascists do and say in their years out of power aren't dissimilar to the IRA. They're nice guys, patriotic, always willing to lend a hand, etc. But you need to factor in the imposed silence, the kneecappings, the pointless murders (really: who said "attaboy" when they killed the ancient Mountbatten and his family?) of absolute innocents, the threats to keep people in line, which seems to work with the men. It's the women who slapped the IRA silly and ridiculed them. I'm also suspicious of Adams, as I have been of all the others. Once in power, they'd revert to vengeful thugs. It's only their inability and violence towards each other that's reduced that threat. I think it over now. Irish women have tasted power and some peace, have the vote and know what to do with it. But that's in spite of and not because of the IRA and the Troubles. They're mostly just crime and drug gangs now.
Incompetence isn't a sign of innocence. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - February 21 2006 : 5:24:46 PM
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Not on my maps. Name a map where you see this mountain.
I don't have the Muddy Creek or Big Hole of battle renown marked on the map either.I suggest you take it up with your sureyor general.
If true, that's not what you said. You said his use of the three arms was PIVOTAL. Prove it. Yet again, overblown declarations you can't back up.
Your posts are becoming more and more hysterical.Calm down old buddy and all will be made clear to you.
The Battle of Wolf Mountain was pivotal because following this skirmish [let's face it that's all these things were]Sitting Bull wanted out.The tactics used were also pivotal if I can use that word in relation to tactics in that all three arms acted in support of each other unlike the LBH unpleasantness.
When Miles replaced Crook - the only way they can be compared of course
Sigh ,get yourself a good basic reader on the subject.They even competed with other to have the greater number of hostiles surrender to them.
Retract what?
Your neck.
Look at Britain's successes: United States, Canada, South Africa, Australia, India (a nation it created), and no other colonial power has anything to compare to it.
The purpose of the colonial system was to rip off the conquered land.To do this efficently you required a good rip off system---good infrastructure ,good ports well trained workers/slaves.Yes indeedy this was of benifit in post colonial states but it came at a terrible price.Paid for in the blood and sweat and tears of lost gererations.
elections, parliaments - are from England,
No that came from Greece and dozens of other states adopted this form of government without having to go through the truma of being colinized.And Uncle Sam was so sold on the idea of democracy that its CIA overtrew democratic governments and replaced them with muderious dictators.
and their bad elements - patriarchal street gangs hiding behind a corrupted patriotism - are throwbacks to the past in which they got hammered with regularity.
The US won it's independence by armed revolt and by getting hammered regularly.It is not those you can inflict the most but those who can enjure the most who eventually win out.
The problem is, most of the IRA and Orangemen ARE fascist in inclination: they want to be king/strongman of the island with all the feudal bells and whistles. They don't want fairness or a peace in which they aren't on top.
A situation created by Britian just like those other success stories
India/Pakistan [and guess what sort of bombs those boys have]Isreal/Palastine[oops another bomb]Cyprus/Turkey,Iraq/Iraq and they we were assured had the bomb.
HR
The very suggestion is like collateral damage in the midst of you two machine gunning each other.
You have nothing to fear from me but be careful of DC his aim is not always true.
If England had fallen, Ireland would have been a slave state,We can all play the if game.If the Japs had not attacked the US the US would not have entered the war and Britian would have been a slave state.
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - February 21 2006 : 5:59:40 PM
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Irish women have tasted power and some peace, have the vote and know what to do with it.
Irish women have the vote well well well what a patronizing observation and ya know they even got themselves elected president.
When did segreation end in the land of the free?How many years after independence did you end slavery?
But you need to factor in the imposed silence, the kneecappings, the pointless murders (really: who said "attaboy" when they killed the ancient Mountbatten and his family?) of absolute innocents, the threats to keep people in line,The mining of ports in Nicaraggua,the support of criminals in Cuba,the installation of muderious tyrants in Iran and Chile,the arming of the Taliban,the use of chemical weapons on absolute innocents in Vietnam.Are we talking about the same people?
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 21 2006 : 7:02:04 PM
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1. Not on any map. It's the battle of the Wolf Mountains. Which aren't. I've been there.
2. There was nothing PIVOTAL about Miles using the three arms together, if two small field guns can represent the artillery. Bombast.
3. They cannot be compared except at the same level. And just ONE battle where Miles faced well fed and rested Sioux, Wild. One.
4. My neck is unscathed.
5. Myth. Wishful thinking. Like the Irish had done so well on their own. It's a safe bet it would have been worse without England. Another of your failed arguments is how to explain the huge population explosion under the British which you called genocide, and why all the Irish artists seemed to drop Ireland like a live grenade and head for England, and why their works are in English. It's still up Wild. You were never slaves, you were incompetent and divided. All these other nations managed to survive and thrive. Just Ireland. Just you.
6. Greece hadn't had Democracy for a long time, and the form of government Ireland had forced on it and then adapted was from England. Again, I admit without question the horrible things we've done, fully as bad as Ireland, but we have offsetting good works. Ireland has a lot of talk.
7. France won the revolution for us. It's an open question whether Washington could have survived another year. Again, your favored tactic of pointing out everyone else's faults, because everyone looks bad, and so Ireland finally achieves parity among nations. On the other side, listing acccomplishments for betterment, taking risks for it, spending money for it, America soars. Ireland? In any case those who endure mostly lose in the end. Vietnam's are rare. Look at Ireland, the native Americans, the Japanese, the Germans in the last century. America suffered hardly at all, endured little, won always. Even our lost war, Vietnam, has turned towards us.
8. Violent, tribal Ireland was not an English creation. Whether these nations have bombs or not, fifty years or more after England left, isn't England's fault or blame.
9. Yet, I bleed not.
10. Gee, not long ago you were joyfully pointing out how FDR fabricated our entrance at Britain's side. We would have entered the war eventually against Germany even without Japanese attack. And good for us. The shame is we didn't enter it sooner. Still, Ireland never entered at all.
11. Yes, but in every year from 1800 forward the Irish young want to move here in number. You can point out everyone's failures, Wild, I don't contest them. It doesn't elevate the Emerald Isle. You'd think you could point to some achievement, some tale of national sacrifice for someone else. Nope.
But since Ireland never rose above her own horrors till recently, when women got the vote and used it, maybe soon. Something, anyway. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 21 2006 : 7:12:37 PM
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IRA tactics have been as brutal as anyone's. So, lump them in with Brown Shirts, Fascisti, Bolsheviks, Al Quada, The Red Guard and, as wILD so cheerfully points out, the Nixon Administration.
Again, we're discussing TACTICS. Similarities abound.
As Barry Goldwater said, "Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice."
Sure, but extremism in the face of liberty sure as hell is.
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Bob Bostwick |
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Smcf
Captain
Status: offline |
Posted - February 22 2006 : 07:31:38 AM
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quote:
To be fascist, Sinn Fein and the IRA would need a Hitler-Mussolini-Pinochet-Franco-Suharta-Marcos-Tojo.... Fact is, they've never had one and Gerry Adams sure as hell doesn't fit the bill.
Paisley, on the other hand, does. He'd shoot every Catholic on the island if he could get away with it and then, maybe, turn toward the Jews.
Your first comment is naive to say the least, but your second displays not only profound ignorance but it looks like libel to me. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 22 2006 : 08:06:09 AM
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REgarding Paisley, he and sections of the Orange crowd are every bit that ugly.
When you strip away the garbage about Michael Collins and other Great Celtic Hopes, there's Irish Catholic fascism in utero. They have been too divided for it to gel, but the inclinations and the false mythologies are all there for it to bloom, and nothing but incompetence and the bumbling British preventing it. If England pulls out and leaves north and south to fight it out, watch.
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Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Smcf
Captain
Status: offline |
Posted - February 22 2006 : 09:01:52 AM
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"he" is every bit what ugly? On second thoughts, forget the question - it'll only lead to another round of ignorant nonsense.
For anyone who wants to know, Paisley has strong but simple views - there is no hidden agenda with him. He strongly objects to the Catholic Church establishment, but supports the right of everyone to freedom of worship and to vote in a democracy. As a constituency MP, he's second to none and his record is beyond reproach. As for the Jewish community, there is a long standing Jewish community in Northern Ireland - never threatened by any political shade there, pre or post partition. |
Edited by - Smcf on February 22 2006 09:49:53 AM |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - February 22 2006 : 09:38:55 AM
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Not on any map. It's the battle of the Wolf Mountains. Which aren't. I've been there.
Try Montana Tongue River approx 107 degrees West 45 degrees North on a straight line between the JJ Reynold's fight and the Rosebud Battle.Just North of Wyoming or ask at the next f****** gas station.
There was nothing PIVOTAL about Miles using the three arms together, if two small field guns can represent the artillery. Bombast.
The number of guns to men was greater than Lee had at Gettysburg.
They cannot be compared except at the same level. And just ONE battle where Miles faced well fed and rested Sioux, Wild. One.
Cedar Creek OCT 18TH or there abouts.2 day running battle in which the Indians abandoned tons of meat,ponies and captured cavalry mounts.
It's a safe bet it would have been worse without England.
No no DC that's a woodaunder your own rules for debating wooda's and cuda don't count.But here's a fact for you to conjure with 146 years after independence there are soup kitchens feeding the starving in the America.78 Years after our independence we have one of the highest GDPs in the world.
Another of your failed arguments is how to explain the huge population explosion under the British which you called genocide,
Well ya see DC our relationship with the Brits streaches over 800 years.Genocidal policy of the 1600 gave way to cheap labour of the 1800s.
and the form of government Ireland had forced on it and then adapted was from England.
No no no DC please.In 1919 we elected democratically our own Government and democratically declared our freedom from England.England then declared war on us outlawed a democratic government and went for reconquest.
Again, your favored tactic of pointing out everyone else's faults, because everyone looks bad, and so Ireland finally achieves parity among nations.
Are we pleading now that Uncle Sam's dirty linen is being held up to the light of day?Let's see ,how many Vietnamees were slaughtered a million?How many young Americans were wasted 50000 and 30 years later bigbidness is screwing the youth of America again 2500 dead 20000 purple hearts and ya poor sods ya believe that crap about evil doers.Listen now and you might learn something.Iraq was invaded because Saddam was going to switch from petro dollars to Euros.
On the other side, listing acccomplishments for betterment, taking risks for it, spending money for it, America soars.
Sure it does but charity does not make money.It's the capitalist way check out the United fruit company and how it helped South America.
Even our lost war, Vietnam, has turned towards us.A philosophy based on losing wars.An interesting concept.
Violent, tribal Ireland was not an English creation
I think we already had this one and if memory serves me right you were unable to give an example of anywhere in the world in 1170 which was not tribal or violent.
Whether these nations have bombs or not, fifty years or more after England left, isn't England's fault or blame.
Partition was Britian's way out of the messes it had created.A colonial legacy of misrule and expediency.
We would have entered the war eventually against Germany even without Japanese attack. And good for us. The shame is we didn't enter it sooner. Still, Ireland never entered at all.
Of course for the purpose of this discussion we will need some evidence.
Belgium would not allow the allies to cross its frontiers until Germany invaded.
Denmark did not fire a shot.
Sweden allowed German troops to cross its territory to attack its neighbour Norway.
Norway set up a pro German Government under Quisling.
France refused union with Britain and set up a pro German Vichy Government.
Switzerland made cucoo clocks.
Russia invaded Poland.
The US ambassador in Britian advised that Britian was a dead duck and you say the US wooda oh yeh.
You can point out everyone's failures, Wild, I don't contest them.So what are you heaping scorn on our heads for?A bit rich don't you think.
You'd think you could point to some achievement, some tale of national sacrifice for someone else. Nope.
States don't do sacrifice but on an individual basis [without checking]we would have had more casualties in WW1 than the US.[and certainly per capita]
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 22 2006 : 10:00:02 AM
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Paisley has tender religious education and credentials. His "doctorate" is from Bob Jones University, a joke. He shares with other rightwing Protestants the same violent prejudices. If he ain't fascist, the word has no meaning. You can find similar stuff from the IRA side. Why, even on this message board Wild called the Windsors inbred and worse.
Paisley quotes from Winkpedia. Even if some are wrong.....
# In 1958 he denounced Princess Margaret and the Queen Mother for "committing spiritual fornication and adultery with the Antichrist", after a visit by them to the new Pope, John XXIII.
# "This Romish man of sin is now in Hell!"; to a packed Ulster Hall after the death of John XXIII in June 1963.
# "I will kill all who get in my way", after a loyalist rally in 1968. He shouted this out at some reporters.
# When Terence O'Neill arrived at Stormont for a meeting with Sean Lemass, Paisley shouted at his car "No mass! No Lemass!"
# After a loyalist rally in 1968, Ian Paisley justified the burning of Catholic homes by claiming: "Catholic homes caught fire because they were loaded with petrol bombs; Catholic churches were attacked and burned because they were arsenals and priests handed out sub-machine guns to parishioners"; he also said discrimination in employment and allocation of public housing for Catholics existed because "they breed like rabbits and multiply like vermin".
# In reference to the Ulster Unionist Party's Jewish candidate, Harold Smith, he said, "The Unionist party are boasting he (Harold Smith) is a Jew. As a Jew, he rejects our Lord Jesus, the New Testament, Protestant principles, the Glorious Reformation and the sanctity of the Lord's day. The Protestant throne and the Protestant constitution are nothing to him."
# In 1968, in a heated debate with the fierce Republican Bernadette Devlin, he responded to her accusations of his hypocrisy by saying he, "would rather be British than be fair."
# During a visit from the Pope, Ian Paisley yelled "I denounce you, Anti-Christ!" several times at the European Parliament. The whole affair can be heard on sermonaudio.com
# "We are not prepared to stand idly by and be murdered in our beds."
# "Save Ulster from sodomy!" - Paisley's slogan in a 1970s and 80s campaign against legalising homosexuality.
# Addressing a crowd at Loughgall; "I am anti-Roman Catholic, but God being my judge, I love the poor dupes who are ground down under that system."
# "The Provisional IRA is the military wing of the Roman Catholic Church.
# Describing the then head of the Catholic Church in Ireland, Tomás Ó Fiaich; "The IRA's bishop from Crossmaglen."
# "I would never repudiate the fact that I am an Irishman."
# "Ulster Resistance is not for the faint or half hearted and we will use all means which are deemed necessary to defeat the Agreement." Ulster Resistance rally, Belfast, November 1986 |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Smcf
Captain
Status: offline |
Posted - February 22 2006 : 10:54:01 AM
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Dear, Oh Dear.
I can just see Paisley hooting with laughter at the above. The Pope thing is pure Paisley, though - hilarious. You've got to sift that lot and see where the man really stands.
Northern Irish bombast is a lot like its black humour. "Bobby Sands - slimmer of the year" etc. A safety value to offset more serious communal strife. What might shock Euro sensibilites can be put in relief to what actually occurs as a result of inflammatory comments, whether correctly or incorrectly "remembered".
The quote about loving the "poor dupes" - doesn't sound like he wants them exterminated, does it?. The "bishop from Crossmaglen" quote I believe too - Pope John Paul I had an interesting comment about this particular bishop's candidacy for Cardinal. It went something like "Ireland deserves better". He finally made it under JP II, though. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 22 2006 : 10:55:30 AM
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1. Like I say, I've been there. It's easier to admit you made an error, Wild, and misread Wolfe Mountain for the Wolf Mountains. Odd no Wolf Mountain listed anywhere, you see.
2. So? Bombast. He was shelling the starving, freezing, and immobile.
3. Ash Creek was against the Hunkpapas only, who had been on the run since LBH. The "tons" is Wildian fabrication. There was some, since they hadn't been able to hunt much at all.
4. That's because you lose your young to suicide and emigration and we have all the world trying to get here. What we call poor, others call middle class.
5. There was never genocide. What happened to Ireland was at least as much fault of the Irish.
6. That's partially true, but badly done by the Irish. They not only wanted to be 'free' but they wanted to be seen as having beaten the British. Since they had not and could not, this was difficult, and even when the majority of British wanted rid of Ireland, Ireland managed to muck it up.
7. Vietnam was a horror, and I've already said as much. You keep reverting because Ireland has no accomplishments of which to speak. Your brains go to England and America as fast as they can.
8. Capitalism works. Ireland hasn't. United Fruit screwed people but established industries that prop up these nations today.
9. Truth is interesting. We're Vietnams second largest trade partner.
10. I cannot. That proves my point. It's just that Ireland STILL IS.
11. About three billion people get to vote in this world because of Britain. The alternatives to a relatively benign colonialism was what? Perpetual tribal war with no time or money for else.
12. True, Wild, and no doubt taught in school to help escape these arguments. But those nations would have been burned to a cinder being an hour away from the German Army. England fought. Ireland didn't and traded with the Nazis for profit just for spite. Joseph Kennedy was removed for his positions, which were not widely held. FDR would most likely have overcome the America Firsters, he rarely lost. But more likely Nazis would have torpedoed our ships with regularity and that would have done it.
13. No, Wild. You start off calling us genocidal murderers with no evidence and much against it. When hammered, you trot out the old 'just kidding I'm Irish' routine. Tough. You're every bit as squalid as any other country with no upside as yet.
14. States do do sacrifice. Albert of Belguim in WWI, Britain in both wars to stick to mentioned examples. Now you want sympathy for casualties you might have received had you fought? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 22 2006 : 2:14:04 PM
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SMCF,
If you can defend Ian Paisley, have at it. "Dear, oh Dear" doesn't do the job. Naive? Look at the history D.C. has provided and tell me again who is naive.
Libel? Read Times v. Sullivan, although it doesn't matter much since he's a foreigner. Libeling the likes of him is tantamount to libeling Osama. By the way, I'm a lifelong protestant. |
Bob Bostwick |
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Smcf
Captain
Status: offline |
Posted - February 23 2006 : 04:36:32 AM
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HR,
Paisley has nothing to defend. He's a politician, not a paramilitary. He hasn't killed anyone, his erstwhile party was in power for 50 years before the troubles and despite republican campaigns, gunrunning, the South's consitutional claim over the North, exactly how many natioanlists were killed by these "fascists" when they had the power? Equating Paisley with republican violence is a lie. He planted no bombs, shot no bullets and was against the release of all convicted terrorists, including loyalist ones, as part of any agreement.
Libel is a written defamation, whether its actionable in court or not. You think we should get our history from wikipedia? I would like to find out more about Unconditional Surrender Grant, known as the "butcher". Sounds like a bit of a fascist to me, but I'll check out wikipedia to make sure.
You know, it serves no purpose by coming out and saying someone would kill all Catholics if they got the chance. Its a lie. |
Edited by - Smcf on February 23 2006 04:49:03 AM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 23 2006 : 10:47:29 AM
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SMCF,
You're right to be suspicious of Winkpedia, which is why I added the caveat. But we call bin Laden a murderer, and we have no proof he himself planted a bomb or trained pilots. He made it all possible, along with the blessing of God. And, you know, bragging about it. Father Coughlin didn't kill anyone in this country, but he was a bigot and a violent one and encouraged it in others, and is probably responsible for the deaths of others. As we see in Iraq this very day, when holy men valid and not give permission and blessings, offer forgiveness and reward, great horror can ensue. I hold them responsible, and I hold Paisley responsible.
I believe I can say with no fear of contradiction that I've displayed my view of the IRA and their myths here, and we don't exchange Xmas cards, and I cannot be accused of taking their side. That said, Paisley has a great deal to defend, starting with his dubious degrees, actual education, religious vows. That Paisley says stuff he regrets might be true, but a lot of people have heard him say some awful things. Pope John the XXIII? I'm an atheist, but that fat little man was a decent sort or nobody ever was.
Paisley isn't part of the Orange Order, true, but in the sense that Sinn Fein isn't the IRA, and like the Palestinians he never fails to encourage events that will lead to violence, or fails to denegrate Irish Catholics, or really done anything constructive that doesn't elevate himself, at least in his own eyes. Is it necessary to celebrate the Boyne after so long or each battle? We don't celebrate Gettysburg except to honor all sides. We sing Dixie. We honor those we defeat (too much so, perhaps). That's alien to Ireland, both sides.
And Paisley is not a politician; he has no interest in compromise. He's a demagogue, and like Arafat will do little better for his country than when he dies. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 23 2006 : 11:18:06 AM
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If Paisley's off the hook, so is Hitler. The man has spent a lifetime spewing and promoting violence but, like all radically extreme demagogues, encourages others to do violence for him. He's promoted fear, hate, religion and violence into a fortune for himself, not to mention elected office.
I couldn't libel him if I tried. If I offered every rotten comnponent of the man's personality that my mind could create, I'd still be only scratching the surface.
Oh, for the 14th Century...then we'd see the rat's head on a spike.
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Bob Bostwick |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - February 23 2006 : 3:10:26 PM
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I see the debate has moved on a piece however If I may return to the US V Ireland discussion.
I think I may have said this before but I have always thought that the default position in human affairs was the US way, all things being equal.The US had three major advantages going for it,vast natural resources,geographical position and the good sense to realise that freedom of the individual trumps all other systems.Allowing individuals to achieve their full potential produced a state that across the whole spectrum of human endevour is unrivaled.The US is the dynamo powering the world economy [for the moment anyway].It does capitalism superbly, what it does not do is benign or benevolentthey are noncompetitive socialist concepts. One has only to look at the neighbourhood in which the US resides.Right in the midst of third world countries.Squalor and poverty abounds on Uncle Sam's doorstep.The US will tolerate no rivals on it's patch.It has overthrown governments and installed tin pot dictators to maintain the status quo but that is how the system works.Capitalism/US style is a predatory system.The US maintains a military greater than the combined strenght of all other states.One might be forgiven for thinking that from this position it would be a force for good in todays world.Unfortunately it is the nature of the beast to look after number one whatever the cost to others.
I have in exchanges with DC listed the horrors perpetrated by the US and he likewise regarding Ireland.Having used up at least half of our respective insults he now suggests we get into accomplishments.Well I'm going to sit this one out not because we are without remarkable achievements in the arts and sciences but because lists are really not the issue.
We are all human and given a set of circumstances will react in very much the same way.The US, warts and all is a product of history and circumstances exactly the same as ourselves.If the positions were reversed noone would notice thr difference.
Like I say, I've been there. It's easier to admit you made an error, Wild, and misread Wolfe Mountain for the Wolf Mountains. Odd no Wolf Mountain listed anywhere, you see.
Are you telling the board that there was not an engagement on the 8th of Jan 1877 known as the Battle of Wolf Mountain between Mile's forces and those of the Sioux and Cheyenne [numbering approx 500 warriors]
Ash Creek was against the Hunkpapas only,
Wrong it was Cedar Creek and once again I would appeal to you to state exactly your requirements when requesting examples ,you know-- weight ,bonnet size with/without warpaint.
About three billion people get to vote in this world because of Britain.And it took 150 years for it to be adopted in the US.
True, Wild, and no doubt taught in school to help escape these arguments.
No but they do show how stupid your arguement is.
But those nations would have been burned to a cinder being an hour away from the German Army.Are you talking principals or geography.If those countries did not fight being an hour away were they ever going to fight being further away?
So this is your silly contention--the US did not fight because it was well out of harms way and those in harms way thought it best not to fight??????
Ireland didn't and traded with the Nazis for profit just for spite. Everyone traded with the Nazis.I believe the US even sent a team to their olimpics.
But more likely Nazis would have torpedoed our ships with regularity and that would have done it.
I see now your principals needed to be kick started by torpedoes? Well something was needed as Roosevelt had declared neutraity.
No, Wild. You start off calling us genocidal murderers with no evidence and much against it. When hammered, you trot out the old 'just kidding I'm Irish' routine. Tough. You're every bit as squalid as any other country with no upside as yet.
Well having human reservations is certainly evidence of nation destruction.
States do do sacrifice. Albert of Belguim in WWI, Britain in both wars to stick to mentioned examples.
Albert? ya mean him that privately owned the Congo and was guilty of appalling human rights abuses.But did he not declare neutrality?Ah sure we know Britian made sacrifices--Czechoslovakia,Poland,Palastine.
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Loot
Recruit
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 23 2006 : 5:08:43 PM
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Ash Creek was against the Hunkpapas only,
Wrong it was Cedar Creek and once again I would appeal to you to state exactly your requirements when requesting examples ,you know-- weight ,bonnet size with/without warpaint.
Cedar Creek Battle was fought with Hunkpapa, Minneconjou and Blackfeet Lakota's. Ash Creek Battle was fought against Hunkpapa Lakota ONLY! |
There is no problem that cannot be solved by the use of high explosives. |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 23 2006 : 7:38:03 PM
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wILD,
It's true, America has a great many warts. However, Americans truly love Ireland and that'll get us all into heaven. |
Bob Bostwick |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 23 2006 : 7:53:13 PM
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Wild,
1. Again, Wild, you're too caught up in Fenian nonsense updated to the 1960's. You say "benign or benevolentthey are noncompetitive socialist concepts" which is malarkey. It's Christian, and since you spent a great deal of time equating the Puritans with the Pilgrims, this isn't a strong suit for you. You seem to think Canada is a Third World country. And that all of Latin America is. Hardly. The First World was the Western powers, the Second the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact types, and the Third World unaffiliated. Right off, the terms were changed because Switzerland and such didn't want to be thought of as 3rd World. It now means overall well being, and Chile, Argentina, and Brazil - while not First World - are certainly not Third if places like Haiti and Bangladesh are Third. I haven't been to Europe since '73 but back then Glasgow and small towns in Ireland were every bit as bad as the slums I'd seen in Latin America. With worse food, as well.
You love to formulate things as systems, and the US as capitalist, but it's strongly socialistic as well, which is why people are PO'd about Katrina and government response. It's no more predatory than Ireland is drunk, although to the monumentally incompetent extreme competence can seem an unfair advantage. And "your" achievements in arts and sciences......er, well arts anyway, was generally in English and in England or elsewhere from Ireland amd rather dependent upon England for support and fame. And they're unique to Ireland but no better than all other civilizations produced. And as we've discovered, you clearly hadn't even read some of the books you held up for acclaim.
And remember Wild, it's still up on the board. You were the one hurling vicious accusations at us long before anyone or I retaliated. You're used to getting away with it, and you've never apologized. An apology consists of the words "I'm sorry for...." or "apologies for...", not sleazy Irish runarounds like "I have nothing but the highest respect" for people you've just called Nazi-like, warlike (and yet cowards for not nuking Moscow when we could) slime mold.
1. The battle of the Wolf Mountains. There is no Wolf Mountain. Miles lied a lot, as I've given examples, and I doubt his tally.
2. Wrong? Where? And again, beware relying on Miles or his creatures. He lied.
3. See, this is what I mean. It was England's persistence to parliament and elections, not the Grecian myth, that inspired others under their Empire including the US. It's because of them that the idea retained strength, because they were the only important nation doing it for centuries at a time, consistently, ever expanding the suffrage. Right off, you have to find the denigrating factor about someone, because Ireland has nothing to brag about at all and you have to deflect attention. Once we're all in the sleaze with you, then we're equal. We're not, you see.
4. No, Wild. Those little nations, smaller than Ireland, often showed more backbone. Some because they had to and some because they'd given their word.
5. My contention is history as it is. But yes, elements in the US didn't want to fight and didn't till Japan attacked. Mostly because they'd seen the horror of WWI and didn't want it here, partially because they wanted to profit from both sides, partially because yet again we had no Army or Navy to speak of. FDR tried mightily to get us in the war against Germany, but never could. More honor to him. Certainly elements in Ireland would have cut a deal with Nazi Germany to go to war against England, after which it would have been destroyed by the Superior Race as almost happened to France. But none of this exculpates Ireland. They'd be happy with everyone in chains with them, so that they can think nobody's better than Ireland. But everyone's been better than Ireland.
6. No, Leopold owned the Congo. When the Kaiser threatened Albert, who followed Leopold, they thought he'd collapse. He went to war and held up the right flank of the Schlieffen Plan for days, requiring siege guns to be brought in. The Belgians were blown apart and retreated as guerrilas and were a constant pain, for which they paid by the Germans shooting everyone in villages if one of their soldiers was shot there, and burning Louvain. Belgium had nothing, no men, no nothing, and it was England's 'scrap of paper' of a treaty that brought them into the war.
Remember, I've said from the beginning Wild, everyone's done horrible things. But some of us have done good things to offset it. What has Ireland done? Lotta talk. North and South, all of it. Self congratulatory nonsense. But when people get compared to Hitler, that's over the line. Nobody was that bad. Yet. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Smcf
Captain
Status: offline |
Posted - February 24 2006 : 06:56:12 AM
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DC and HR,
Agree or not with strong religious views, facile McHistory labelling/libelling of public figures as would-be murderers or sponsors thereof goes beyond the pale. Especially when ridiculously compared to Hitler. That goes for any outspoken political figure. As regards Paisley, not only is he the leader of a party which has the majority of N.I MPs in parliament, he commands the biggest vote in in the European elections and has done for decades. That wouldn't be the case if he were not an effective representative for his constituents - everyone is in agreement with his work ethic at local, national and European levels. I may not be in agreement with his views or his politics, but he is a politician. He answers to his electorate, not to any army council.
As an Orangeman - no Unionist leader can be anything other. He has his own Orange Order, like his own Church and his own political party. Unfortunately for Tony Blair, the party which were non-signatories of the Good Friday agreemnt are now the main political force in the country.
I have no axe to grind against anyone btw, just felt a bit of injustice here. I'm just in a position to know a bit more beyond the blather. |
Edited by - Smcf on February 24 2006 07:35:17 AM |
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Responsibility At Little Bighorn
