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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - February 17 2006 : 09:03:49 AM
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Different issues keep getting conflated.
Plans would "work" at different levels. The strategic theories of Sheridan were correct: hit them hard, kill and capture, keep the pressure on and this cows others not present for actual fights back to the rez as word spreads. The Wa****a cowed the Southern Cheyenne and other tribes for quite a while, and so 'worked.'
If there had been, say, three large villages of the same rough size in 1876 and the Army only found one and walloped it, the same result might be reasonably expected. I don't think anyone thought it remotely necessary to herd all together and then hit them, although that was the best of all possible worlds and not to be avoided if it appeared. This, to minds who'd shined on Kildeer Mountain and thought that which applied to a village of 75 lodges and 400 people somehow applied the same to cities of 15k people. That was and is spectacularly stupid and unimaginative. And so very, very wrong.
When MacKenzie hit Dull Knife's village and the refugees fled looking for the Oglala, it drove them all into Canada in despair or back to the rez. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - February 17 2006 : 2:15:01 PM
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No doubt the Irish are selling somebody out as we speak, so I'll bow to that surety. Whatever bomb or disease wreaks havoc, Wild can take pride al Quada trained with the IRA. May still, for all we know.
I'm sure there are many third rate discussion boards that cater for this kind of vacuous rant.One piece of advice though DC if you are to venture into the underworld of the intellectual Neanderthal acquaint yourself first with the latest production from that house of horrors Abu Ghraib.
AZ and friends.
The Sioux strategically never stood a chance.They were going back to the home for retired savages sooner or later.All that was to be decided was the price Uncle Sam would have to pay.And that is the measure of whether the "plan" was a success or not.
One very telling remark was made by Col. Miles he described Crook's campaign as that which "acomplished nothing but gave the Indians renewed confidence".Perhaps the measure of success is also manifested in the positions to which the principal commanders are assigned at the termination of the campaign.Terry and Crook were posted to St Paul and Omaha where they occupied themselves with QM duties.And it took Uncle Sam longer to subdue the Sioux than it did to subdue Robert.
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kenny
Recruit
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 17 2006 : 2:59:05 PM
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| Didn't Col.Nelson Miles took over the campaign after the 7th defeat? |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 17 2006 : 4:29:00 PM
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Sorry, Wild. After accusing the U.S. of genicide against the Indians, failing to nuke the Soviets and Chinese, instigating the Cold War which you called the worst of all possible options to do, and of course England of everything under the sun except when you include yourself in "we" in discussing their victories and literature, and of course seeing no difference between the Nazis and the Allies while profiting from both, and all that on this message board, I must have not cared. Still don't, in fact. Abu Graib is a disgrace and a criminal one, but these things happen in war, and nobody should be surprised. Although, we don't - like the IRA and Islamic terrorists - deliberately target children and civvies, although we've done in a ton. But if we did, of course, we have much in the plus column that may offset our damnation to the future, perhaps like the vaccines Ireland will line up to get when Avian Flu hits. Ireland? Fictions, bombast (you must remember: you claimed to wetnurse American soldiers in this war and to be the educational backbone of Africa....)and nothing.
You amusingly think Miles an objective viewer whose opinion should be taken at his word. Colonel Miles, a social climber of the first rank and son in law of Sherman, wanted Crooks' job. Miles was a self-centered blowhard and suckup who was, while an accomplished soldier, not in Crooks' company. Wounded Knee was solely a Nelson Miles Presentation. Your quote is hardly a telling remark except as reflective of Miles, who lied twice we know of to get into the widow Custer's.....well, good graces. First, the ridiculous Mary Adams document, which appeared after Terry's death - right after his death - and then the forged letter that purported to be from Edgerly, and which officer denied it and said it was a summation of Miles' views. We have no physical proof it was Miles. But it was, by common agreement even back then.
Under Miles' tenure, the Army was given whatever it wanted, not what Crook, Terry, and Custer, whose death generated the turnaround, operated under. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - February 17 2006 : 5:29:18 PM
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and Custer, whose death generated the turnaround.
Like I was saying---The living are always inferior to the martyred dead
Although, we don't - like the IRA and Islamic terrorists - deliberately target children and civvies,
No you just hire others to do your dirty work like for example the Contras or the Taliban.
Abu Graib is a disgrace and a criminal one, but these things happen in war,
But there was no war and these victims were civvies in their own country.
and all that on this message board,
Now now DC let's not be bashful you must take full credit for starting the thread.
perhaps like the vaccines Ireland will line up to get when Avian Flu hits.
Well maybe as payback for the CIA torture filghts we turn a blind eye to.
Miles was a self-centered blowhard and suckup
Well well Miles now joins Sherman in the sinbin of history,scoundrels both ,not to be believed.We will soon have the entire high command disposed of if we continue like this.How about Buffalo Bill who pleaded theatrical commitments and left Stan and Olly to their fumblings and also the Shoshonis who also departed in disgust? |
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Loot
Recruit
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 17 2006 : 5:57:29 PM
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| First of all, Miles was NOT the son-in-law of Sheridan. His wife was a niece of Sheridan. Don't you think that Miles changed the way of Indian Wars Tactics!!! Crook & Terry, a couple of useless generals seemed to accomodate the Native Americans. Miles, on the other hand, decided to change the way of warfare with them. His tactics, which WON the Indian Wars, was to fight and pursue them for 12 months, not the usual 6 month's, which was the general plan of the Army. He may have been a "Social Climber", but ended up being one of the MOST effective, non-West Point, commanders! |
There is no problem that cannot be solved by the use of high explosives. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 17 2006 : 6:53:44 PM
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1. There isn't an insect alive who isn't superior to most "martyrs", even in larval form.
2. We can afford it.
3. Yes, well, when Ireland does something to emulate, the world will start to care. Being not important or successful at much of anything doesn't mean Ireland's insights are valued or even sought. That you cannot recognize a war is a clue. But there's worse:
4. You don't know what a thread is, apparently, because I didn't start this one.
5. Hardly a blind eye, Ireland gets giddy when others screw up. It's what you do. And there's no reason to think we don't turn them over to the Irish to do it for us. And why are you owed for all the stuff you can't do, don't have the courage to do, or the ability to do? Or, as in this case, for positions you want to pose as holding when your government actually supports it in the main, insofar as anybody, including the Irish, believes Ireland.
6. No, Sherman got results, like Crook, and intensely disliked Miles, and cheerfully knew and said Crook was the better man with the Indians.
Ah, Loot. Why are you talking about Sheridan? I wasn't. But you're correct, he wasn't the son in law he was married to Sherman's niece, a penalty of my posting off the cuff. It dilutes my point by 3%. Even by the standards of third grade recess incitement this is pretty weak, like all the sudden user name appearences. Miles had the Congress and people behind him after LBH, something those previous to him in that Department after the CW did not, and his heroism chasing people around is somewhat shaded by the fact a lot of them were in Canada for some years. The tactics for which Crook and Terry are condemned in this thread - following and exhausting the tribes as themselves - is now being credited as new tactics that won the Indian wars by Miles. Custer hit camps in summer and winter at Sheridan's behest. In the sense those wars were 'won,' they were by the lack of buffalo and game in the north, and trickery in the south, and the cultural and military incompetence of the tribal leaders who never knew what hit them.
Being the "one of the MOST effective, non-West Point, commanders" is akin to being Norway's reigning Jai Alai champ. Yes, those ringing words of praise: effective, competent - rather than good. What was the competition again? In what era? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - February 18 2006 : 05:54:43 AM
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Good to see Sherman restored and his observations on military matters again held in high esteem.But as you now admit a penalty of my posting off the cuff.Yesterday it's Abu Graib is a disgrace and a criminal one,Today it's We can afford it.You make the chemeleon look positively plain.Your debating style is dependent on how quickly you can shift positions but you are good for a laugh particularly when attributing individual morality to states.
The tactics for which Crook and Terry are condemned in this thread - following and exhausting the tribes as themselves - is now being credited as new tactics that won the Indian wars by Miles.Tactics without the ability to execute them are ineffectual.Myles showed far more determination and his ability to coordinate all arms cavalry, infantry and artillery was pivotal |
Edited by - wILD I on February 18 2006 05:56:34 AM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 18 2006 : 8:22:46 PM
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The issue yesterday, as readers of English would note, is that I misrecalled Nelson Miles as a son in law of Sherman rather than married to Sherman's niece, minor to the point and, unless Wild has succumbed as others who like to talk to themselves have and holds three or four different ID's, an issue with Loot, not Wild. Abu Graib has nothing to do with the referenced quote "We can afford it," because that was a reply to you saying we outsource our torture, not the case at Abu Graib where we did it ourselves. The Contras aren't relevant or accurate to any of this, and the thought we outsource to the Taliban our Taliban prisoners for torture defies comment.
Not fun to have your wild, false, and foolish accusations held up to the light, Wild, is it? Remember, I'm "Celt" like you and can call other countries all sorts of horrible things, so long as I say towards the end "I have such respect ....." in contravention of all that's gone before after which everyone is supposed to forgive me because I'm Scot, which is the same thing as Irish to 99% of the world. Thanks for teaching that, it's so liberating not to be responsible for my wild accusations.
That said, Miles was a schmuck. You can provide no example of this splendid inter-arm cooperation of his in the Indian Wars. (Any time artillery was an issue, the Indians were defeated already, else how could that be brought to bear?) Miles, after and for racial reasons, dismissing all of Crook's Apache scouts and replacing them with white versions, and after seeming decades of not being able to bring the Apache to heal or negotiate, he hired the scouts back, and when they brought in the renegades Miles broke his promises and sent them to prison in Sinkhole, Florida. Then, General Nelson Miles did the sort of thing that speaks of Irish blood (Is that offensive? I have nothing but the highest respect.......naw, I don't): he had the victorious scouts who were still in our service, some in uniform, also arrested and imprisoned to death with the others, an Indian being an Indian. This makes Wounded Knee, where Miles went ballistic because a medicine man claimed he could raise the dead and provide bulletproof shirts after two mass runthroughs of Dancing with the Starving Squaws, predictable. This also pointlessly led to the death of Sitting Bull and unknown numbers, and where most Army casualties at the 'battle' itself probably came from friendly fire.
A splendid man, and I can see why the Irish are so attracted to him. A suck up who betrayed his men, who literally raised the nation's alert level to Defcon 9 over potential Zombies from starving throngs doing a stomp/shuffle, and took credit for every remotely normal and beneficial development including the sunrise. Had Custer, Crook, or Mrs. Nash been given the forces available to Nelson, they could have achieved the same result quicker and with fewer press releases. Only Crook wouldn't have had to kill 5% of what Miles did. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on February 18 2006 9:02:22 PM |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - February 19 2006 : 1:56:45 PM
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Not fun to have your wild, false, and foolish accusations held up to the light, Wild, is it? Remember, I'm "Celt" like you and can call other countries all sorts of horrible things, so long as I say towards the end "I have such respect
They were all shot down all 15 of them.They had pressed home their attack though hopelessly outnumbered and in the face of heavy anti-aircraft fire.Within minutes ten out of 14 planes of the next squadron suffered the same fate.The next attack squadron was also butchered as they tried to get through the fighter screen.6 Out of 47 planes survived the massacre and not a hit was scored.Their vallant efforts seemed in vain but their sacrifice had gained for their comrades a chance.What was their names [for shame I have to look them up]Waldron,Lindsey,Massey.
Gary Gorden and Randy Sthugart are names I remember.Could men have died better?I don't remember the name of the brave man whose last message was "let's roll" or of the brave men who went out into the snow drifts and blizzards to rescue the Donner party but unlike you DC I can differentiate between the individual and the corporation and I salute and respect courage wherever I find it. You I leave to your supercilious one liners We can afford itwhen refering to the murder of innocent women and children.
You can provide no example of this splendid inter-arm cooperation of his in the Indian Wars.
Wolfe Mountain saw all three engaged infantry artillery and mounted.
Miles was a schmuck.And what do you think Jackson was riding about sucking lemons with one arm raised above his head.I bet Hooker thought he was a schmuck.I can see now why you hold Terry in such high regard more of a gentleman with just that a little touch of femininity.
A splendid man, and I can see why the Irish are so attracted to him. A suck up who betrayed his men, who literally raised the nation's alert level to Defcon 9 over potential Zombies from starving throngs doing a stomp/shuffle,A spot of genocide lite perhaps?
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Edited by - wILD I on February 19 2006 2:26:35 PM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 19 2006 : 4:18:33 PM
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Torpedo 8, I'm guessing. Is looking up something Americans did in WWII supposed to compensate for your accusations of genocide (which you again make), while trying to hide the fact Ireland stayed neutral against Hitler and Japan? You don't honor other's courage, Wild, you want to be applauded for mentioning it and hope to wrap youself in it. Ireland saw no difference between the Nazis and America. Enough said.
Wolfe Mountain? You mean the willage raids along the Wolf Mountains, so called, of which the Crow's Nest is one? All three arms engaged - wow. "Myles showed far more determination and his ability to coordinate all arms cavalry, infantry and artillery was pivotal." Blather. This is against freezing aborigines eating horseflesh and unable to move at all attacked with the plumped up company levels that distinguished those commands a year after LBH. Not only not pivotal, not necessary.
Jackson was thought insane by some of his peers. He wanted to use pikes, don't forget, in the Civil War. If I strike you as effeminate, Wild, fine. I can hardly complain when I find most people on these boards overcompensating, few as obviously as Warlord did. In any case, I certainly don't pretend to what I am not, nor attempt to drape myself in others' heroics. Nelson Miles was a schmuck, and I cannot believe that supposed soldiers wouldn't be appalled over his behavior, lack of honesty, and viciousness not only to no beneficial point, but no point at all. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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terri
Private
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 19 2006 : 10:00:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Different issues keep getting conflated.
Plans would "work" at different levels. The strategic theories of Sheridan were correct: hit them hard, kill and capture, keep the pressure on and this cows others not present for actual fights back to the rez as word spreads. The Wa****a cowed the Southern Cheyenne and other tribes for quite a while, and so 'worked.'
My post is off topic for the thread, but I noticed your paragraph and wonder why you believe Wa****a worked. Could you cite some examples, as to how the Cheyenne were cowed? I'm not so sure. Yes, Black Kettle, a peace chief, was killed along with many others, but wasn't a larger village missed by Custer? Custer also abandoned part of his command and they were butchered. This was not accomplished by cowed Indians. Thanks DC for the reply. Look forward to discussing this with you.
Terri |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - February 20 2006 : 04:59:36 AM
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who literally raised the nation's alert level to Defcon 9 over potential Zombies from starving throngs doing a stomp/shuffle,I have always admired your ability as a wordsmith DC.Could anything better describe the horrors of genocide than the above.
while trying to hide the fact Ireland stayed neutral against Hitler and Japan?
Well I suppose if anyone can find a connection between Wounded Knee and Hitler it would be you.But just to reply---Ireland followed the same policy as Uncle Sam.
You can provide no example of this splendid inter-arm cooperation
Wolfe Mountain
so called, of which the Crow's Nest is one? All three arms engaged - wow.
This is a classic DC tactic.Ask/deny an example and when furnished with one and proven wrong take refuge in rubbishing it.[US Congress ,Sherman,Miles]Now you would save me and the board a lot of time and yourself a lot of embarrassment if you set out more clearly the paramerers required for your examples.
This is against freezing aborigines eating horseflesh and unable to move at all attacked with the plumped up company levels that distinguished those commands a year after LBH.
I know we have to make allowances, you not being military or anything but has anyone ever read such rot.Miles is villified because he fields the strongest possible force at a time of his choosing against an enemy at their weakest.I look forward to you outlining the flaws in this strategy.
Jackson was thought insane by some of his peers. He wanted to use pikes, don't forget, in the Civil War.So?Men went off to war decked outin ruffles and frills as if eunuchs from a harem.
If I strike you as effeminate, Wild,Apologies DC that is not what I wished to convey atall atall.But it would seem from your posts that unless success is gained by decent chaps then it is not sucess atall.
I certainly don't pretend to what I am not, nor attempt to drape myself in others' heroics.
No one could accuse you of that.The recognition of heroics or any form of decency in other nations does not come easy to you.
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Edited by - wILD I on February 20 2006 05:02:12 AM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 20 2006 : 10:57:17 AM
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"My post is off topic for the thread, but I noticed your paragraph and wonder why you believe Wa****a worked. Could you cite some examples, as to how the Cheyenne were cowed? I'm not so sure. Yes, Black Kettle, a peace chief, was killed along with many others, but wasn't a larger village missed by Custer? Custer also abandoned part of his command and they were butchered. This was not accomplished by cowed Indians. Thanks DC for the reply. Look forward to discussing this with you.
Terri"
My guess is that there was very little major activity by the Southern Cheyenne after this event. Certainly the physiological effect on the other villages of seeing what happened was enhanced because they were right there to witness it.
If one is to believe that Custer was following some raiders to Black Kettles village then they didn't miss the others. The locations of these villages were determined by the terrain to some extent. The location offered a place to get out the wind, water was available, and wood for fires.
"Custer also abandoned part of his command and they were butchered." Are you sure of the the order maybe they were "butchered" and then were abandoned? Are you suggesting that they would not have been killed if Custer stayed at Black Kettle's village? Or is it that the larger party of 7th Cavalry hearing gunshots from a distance had an obligation to go to their assistance? Or when there was overwhelming numbers of Indians appearing the 7th had an obligation to all die together?
I am curious about these answers. If an officer is mad that the troopers were abandoned then what behavior would you expect from him if has to make a choice of saving the larger body of troopers? My answer is that officer in charge makes the decision to save the larger body of troopers. Everyone else gets to be mad that they abandoned them but inside they are happy to be alive. If not they could have been insubordinate and rode off to find the missing troopers. If successful in their rescue they would get a medal.
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 20 2006 : 11:32:18 AM
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Terri,
We were talking whether the Army's strategic plans worked under Sherman and Sheridan, and they did. I wasn't fluffing the Wa****a as battle, and you're correct it wasn't impressive in detail. But the Wa****a 'worked' because it cowed and disheartened the Cheyenne and the other Indians throughout the southern plains by showing that the Army would hit them in winter, in terrible weather, something they had not expected since they couldn't fight that way.
Wild
By paragraph.
1. Wounded Knee shows better than anything we were NOT engaged in genocide, a word like aborigine you didn't know the meaning of and still gon't use correctly. If it had been genocide, then ALL the Indians would have been slain. Even as it was, some of the Army was aghast at the slaughter and wrote about it as such. Nothing like that occured within or without the Waffen SS or Gestapo when they had similar opportunities. That's the difference, along with all the others I've previously noted. No Jews served as vice Chancellor to Hitler, whereas the US had a half Kaw Vice President. We named states, cities, football teams, and Army Units after Native Americans, made them citizens, gave them pretend sovereignty, put them on the dole, tried to work through our deserved guilt. That's not genocide, either. We're guilty of mass murder, of Grand Theft Continent, of stupidity and cruelty - often unintended - beyond ken. But genocide is much, much worse, and its application to events like Native Americans or whatever the Irish fabricate to elevate themselves to Martyrdom is appalling and insulting to those who experienced it.
2. Actually, you did it previously Wild. Like Wiggs' fans discovered, it's up on this board and many hard drives forever, and you can't pretend it isn't. And again, you're inaccurate and disingenuous. Ireland, as England, was under direct threat from the Nazis. The US was not, save by divine intervention. But so long as others were willing to fight, Ireland was willing to profit from both sides, not that they shared it with the poor, you understand.
3. You claimed Miles made new strides in interarm utilization to distinguish him from the hoi poloi, I asked in what way, and you provide a situation where all three were applied at the Battle of the Wolf Mountains. There is no "Wolfe" Mountain, or mountains at all. I'd previously noted that any case where artillery (and Miles' Arm consisted of two (2) small guns) was used, the Indians had already lost. So: what was new and innovative or demonstrative of Miles' horsepower at this insignificant battle against the near dead? Nothing. And it hardly elevates him.
4. I'm not villifying Miles for that strategy. I'm saying it was a slam dunk, and hardly impressive. And Wild, you were a clerk, you've said.
5. You offer Jackson as a paragon, I asked why given the facts.
6. That isn't true.
7. That's not true either. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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terri
Private
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 20 2006 : 1:23:20 PM
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"Custer also abandoned part of his command and they were butchered." Are you sure of the the order maybe they were "butchered" and then were abandoned? Are you suggesting that they would not have been killed if Custer stayed at Black Kettle's village? Or is it that the larger party of 7th Cavalry hearing gunshots from a distance had an obligation to go to their assistance? Or when there was overwhelming numbers of Indians appearing the 7th had an obligation to all die together?
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Hi AZ!
OT: Bet your weather is warmer than mine. Think me and the ipod will veg inside today ...
Now to the Wa****a. Major Joel Elliott and an eighteen man detachment left the main battle to pursue the enemy as it fled. They did not return.
Subsequently, the Wa****a ended in a great success for the 7th. And after slaughtering camp dogs and other animals, GAC herded the captives to Camp Supply. Why did he not stay and send out a scouting party for Major Elliott who had not returned? I find his decision unfathomable. He was the victor. And, to my knowledge, there was not an imminent threat precieved except for what GAC cites below.
In response to why it took two weeks to return for Major Elliott:
Custer's response was to the effect that they had spent the entire day fighting and then destroying the village and horse herd. He needed to get rid of the Indians who still loitered in strong force on the hills. (Killing Custer pg. 61-65).
GAC's explanation fails to impress me. I'd like to know what happened to the enemy force loitering on those hills. Were they eliminated? Driven off? In my reading, the question remains unclear. However, GAC took the time to slaughter dogs and horses. He took time to burn the village. Okay that's understandable. The action quelched any spirit left in the enemy. But, what about his command? Elliott and eighteen men remained unaccounted for. Shouldn't GAC have sent a scouting party to ascertain their fate? What harm would it have done to set up camp overnight and search the following morning?
I follow GAC's thinking to a certain extent, but I find his decision egregious. In my opinion, true duty and honor dictated the elimination of the enemy; Furthermore, it needed to ascertain the condition of Major Elliott and the missing eighteen men.
Hope I answered your questions. 
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - February 20 2006 : 1:41:37 PM
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1. Wounded Knee shows better than anything we were NOT engaged in genocide, a word like aborigine you didn't know the meaning of and still gon't use correctly. If it had been genocide, then ALL the Indians would have been slain.
All this has already been gone over with you comming off second best.You do nothing more than present the board with same old craw thumping whine we took their land,we took their freedom,we took their way of life,we took their very lives but we made up for it by naming a football team the Red Skins.
and its application to events like Native Americans or whatever the Irish fabricate to elevate themselves to Martyrdom is appalling and insulting to those who experienced it.Spare us the sanctimonious tears.The US had to be dragged screaming and kicking to the acceptance of the crime of genocide [provided that it was not applied to the Indians]
Ireland, as England, was under direct threat from the Nazis.We were occupied and under threat from Britian.The Brits had every intention to invade and take possession of the ports controlling the Western approaches.
The US was not,So all these high and mighty principals which you spout are based on geography? And what changed Uncle Sam's mind Hirohito's calling card? And just for historical accuracy it was Britian who declared war on Germany.
But so long as others were willing to fight, Ireland was willing to profit from both sides, not that they shared it with the poor, you understand.
For your enlightment DC the purpose of the state is self interest and it is futile to argue the pros and cons of state behavior from an individual moralistic stand point.The constitution of the US is based on the recognition of human rights and it guarentees those rights.But those rights that it recognises for its own citizens it does not extend to the citizens of other nations.In the US the human rights of the individual are superior to those of the state but in foreign affairs the self interest of the US [and all other states]is paramount.Thus it is possible to kill thousands of Iraqi citizens and not have to account for it.Can you give me one example of a state acting on nothing more than a principal taking an action which would put it's very existance at risk for no return?
I'd previously noted that any case where artillery (and Miles' Arm consisted of two (2) small guns) was used, the Indians had already lost. So: what was new and innovative or demonstrative of Miles' horsepower at this insignificant battle against the near dead?
Now this is your original post requesting an example-----You can provide no example of this splendid inter-arm cooperation of his in the Indian Wars. What you really requested was an example from
1 A significant battle
2 Where more than two pieces of artillery were used.
3 The engagement had to be before the Indians were beaten,
4 The Indians had to be in robust health
5 The Indians had to be fair haired and blue eyed.
I don't know why I bother.
You offer Jackson as a paragon, I asked why given the facts.You dismissed Sherman and Miles and Jackson because of their idiosyncrasy.Loose cannons,suck ups,lunatics but they were good killers. |
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terri
Private
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 20 2006 : 2:07:09 PM
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We were talking whether the Army's strategic plans worked under Sherman and Sheridan, and they did.
Apologies for entering into the middle of the discussion. I do agree the Generals had terrific success. Its my opinion Sherman employed shades of Marching Through Georgia in his tactical planning.
I wasn't fluffing the Wa****a as battle, and you're correct it wasn't impressive in detail. But the Wa****a 'worked' because it cowed and disheartened the Cheyenne and the other Indians throughout the southern plains by showing that the Army would hit them in winter, in terrible weather, something they had not expected since they couldn't fight that way.
I've not witnessed you fluff anything on this site. On the contrary, your command of the English language is impressive. You might want to lighten up at times though and give your blood pressure a rest. 
In my opinion what the Wa****a did was demonstrate the greater concept of military might. It proved beyond doubt that Native peoples faced a limitless enemy - one which would pursue and attack at will, regardless of conditions. These same people were thus forced to accept another stark fact. Us Forces would not be stopped until the objectives of compliance or, in some cases, annihilation were achieved. This is what produced a chilling effect. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 20 2006 : 2:36:53 PM
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Wild,
1. It's difficult Wild, I know. But genocide is pretty black and white, and we didn't do it here, the Irish never experienced it (your failures are your own), and I've proven it.
2. Under threat of civil government and police without weapons. The HORROR! Thank God for the selfless martyrs who made Ireland safe for kneecappers, drunks, and a mandated brain drain to England.
3. Ireland till recently was a basketcase of the first water.
4. That's not true. My quote is in reply to this one of yours: "Myles showed far more determination and his ability to coordinate all arms cavalry, infantry and artillery was pivotal" So in what way was this splendid battle or its execution pivotal? Or this coordination unique to Miles?
5. I've never dismissed Sherman, I admire him a lot. Miles took credit for things others did, and to compare his operations when Congress was pouring money in to Custer or Crooks' deprived forces is obscene. But even if he had won all battles by himself with a dull razor he should rot in hell for what he did to his Apache scouts alone. Jackson was crazy in the opinion of his peers, not me. Pikes were not an idiosyncracy, but barking dog mad.
Terri,
I don't think it a shade. I think he was pretty much what he said: someone who hated war, and the way to make it quick was to make it awful for the other side. No racist, he treated the South worse than the Native Americans, and with reason.
I screw up a fair amount on this site, and admit it cheerfully. Few others admit it at all. By fluff, I meant inflate it in importance or execution. I have remarkably low blood pressure.
Your summation of Wa-steamer's effect, I think, is dead on, and that's what I meant when I said the strategy 'worked.' |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on February 20 2006 2:40:20 PM |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - February 20 2006 : 5:09:16 PM
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Ireland safe for kneecappers, drunks, and a mandated brain drain to England
Ireland till recently was a basketcase of the first water.
I know you are intelligent enough to realise that the above is devoid of cerebral content.You often make up for your deficiency in this area by being amusing but not on this occasion so my only reply is zzzzzzzz.
So in what way was this splendid battle or its execution pivotal? Or this coordination unique to Miles?
After Wolf Mountain the Indians believed the soldiers could not be beaten.Sitting Bull also decided to call off the war and head for Canada.
I've never dismissed Sherman,You decribed him as a loose cannon,a moaner and lible to do anything and this in relation to his views on the staff v line problem.
Miles took credit for things others did, and to compare his operations when Congress was pouring money in to Custer or Crooks' deprived forces is obscene.This was not a game with prissy rules for fair play.Miles got what he thought he needed by sucking up ,self promotion and any other devious means you care to list but he got it which makes him a better executive than Crook or Terry.
he should rot in hell for what he did to his Apache scouts alone.They should all rot in hell. |
Edited by - wILD I on February 20 2006 5:11:57 PM |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 20 2006 : 7:21:50 PM
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"Ireland saw no difference between the Nazis and America."
Now, now, D.C. Most of Ireland was in America by the turn of the 20th Century. Good evidence, don't you think, that the Irish saw considerable difference between America and not only Germany, but the rest of the world?
Perhaps you mean that the Irish didn't see any difference between the Germans and the Brits, a belief exploited by the Germans in both wars.... |
Bob Bostwick |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 20 2006 : 8:32:39 PM
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Wild,
1. Ireland is my evidence.
2. What Wolf Mountain? There are the Wolf Mountains, but is there such a peak? Again: you claim innovation for Miles, but what was innovative? He had lots more than Custer or Crook, is all, and the Indians were starving. He never faced well-fed and numerous Sioux, or Nez Perce, as Crook, Custer, and Howard had. Miles wasn't responsible for these events, he just piled on. Whoever took over would have been given the same stuff and a motivating speech and done much the same.
3. He was a loose cannon, which is hardly a putdown, because he was very likely to say what he thought and tell the truth. I never said he was "a moaner", but that soldiers - all soldiers - complain all the time, and he was a soldier and, further, this was in correspondence with a friend.
4. He didn't get it. He was given it because of LBH, not anything he did.
5. They can all look down on Ireland, though.
HR
You need to reread Wild's postings in previous threads, one on the cartridge and one on Ireland. He says there was no difference between the Nazis and ourselves, among other things. But for your point, if the Irish couldn't see any difference between the British and the Nazis, what does that say? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - February 21 2006 : 10:41:37 AM
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What Wolf Mountain?
It lies between the Rosebud and the Powder River.Really you should get yourself some reading material on the conquest of the Sioux.
Ireland is my evidence.
I don't know what you mean.
you claim innovation for Miles,
His aggressive use of infantry touched off a discussion in Congress [that word again] and army over whether infantry was not,after all,superior to cavalry for Indian warfare.
He had lots more than Custer or Crook, is all,
Wrong he operated with as little as 350 men.
He never faced well-fed and numerous Sioux,He campaigned at the same time as Crook with a force that never numbered above 500.Crook had a force of 2200 men all arms.
He was a loose cannon, which is hardly a putdown, because he was very likely to say what he thought and tell the truth.
Good a retraction?and you accept his word on the staff v line problem?
He didn't get it. He was given it because of LBH, not anything he did.They gave it to the man who they thought would use it best.
HR
Perhaps you mean that the Irish didn't see any difference between the Germans and the Brits,
What is the difference between a colonial power and a facist one?
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Edited by - wILD I on February 21 2006 10:44:57 AM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 21 2006 : 12:44:23 PM
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1. Not on my maps. Name a map where you see this mountain.
2. Believe you.
3. If true, that's not what you said. You said his use of the three arms was PIVOTAL. Prove it. Yet again, overblown declarations you can't back up. Recall: the educational backbone of Africa.
4. You're bouncing between time periods and campaigns again. When Miles replaced Crook - the only way they can be compared of course - his units were fluffed out in comparison. And simply name a battle of Miles' where he faced anything like the well-fed and numerous Sioux Custer and Crook did.
5. Retract what?
6. Colonial powers can be fascist or democratic or anywhere in between, so again it's a false choice. Look at Britain's successes: United States, Canada, South Africa, Australia, India (a nation it created), and no other colonial power has anything to compare to it. Even in current nations that didn't improve as much, like Guyana or Ireland, they still have to face the fact that what's currently good about their nation - elections, parliaments - are from England, and their bad elements - patriarchal street gangs hiding behind a corrupted patriotism - are throwbacks to the past in which they got hammered with regularity.
The problem is, most of the IRA and Orangemen ARE fascist in inclination: they want to be king/strongman of the island with all the feudal bells and whistles. They don't want fairness or a peace in which they aren't on top. Fortunately, the side with the higher percentage of Irish soldiers loses just about always. Go figure. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 21 2006 : 12:55:44 PM
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wILD, D.C.
Were I to apply an Irish perspective to myself, I certainly would hold no love for the English. However, I see no historical Irish embrace of Nazism. Germans, yes, because they were enemies of the Brits and there was considerable Irish support for Germany (as I recall) during WWI. "The enemy of my enemy...." ect., ect.
The very suggestion is like collateral damage in the midst of you two machine gunning each other.
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Bob Bostwick |
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Responsibility At Little Bighorn
