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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
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 Posted - August 04 2003 : 01:29:49 AM
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I haven't read the whole thing, but I am a bit confused. I've read different sections, then scanned it for evidence, yet found little to none. Here's what I am confused on....
It seems part of the book states that E Company moved down Custer Hill to Deep Ravine, getting their ass kicked the whole way. He states that this was a company-sized movement, 45 troopers or so. Then he says this happened after all the soldiers on Custer Hill were wiped out. But where the hell would E Company have been the whole time? And why would there be 45 soldiers left when all of F Company and the Regimental Staff were dead? Did the Indians just not shoot at them?
At a different point, he seems to say they did what C Company did, which was charge to relieve pressure, but were counterattacked viciously and annihilated quickly, in the same area. Then its stated that about 10-15 soldiers ran for it at the end of the battle, from Custer Hill.
Also, for claiming that Custer's Battalion of F and E moved to a northern ford seems to be based not on any archaeology (that I can find in the book, anyway), but on moving the location of (some from very iffy accounts) of Custer's being stopped at the ford.
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I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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pjsolla
Major
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Posted - August 04 2003 : 01:47:20 AM
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| El Crab: Could you please redirect the question to my email address at pjsolla@yahoo.com |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Forum Guest
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Posted - August 04 2003 : 2:41:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by El Crab
I haven't read the whole thing, but I am a bit confused. I've read different sections, then scanned it for evidence, yet found little to none. Here's what I am confused on....
It seems part of the book states that E Company moved down Custer Hill to Deep Ravine, getting their ass kicked the whole way. He states that this was a company-sized movement, 45 troopers or so. Then he says this happened after all the soldiers on Custer Hill were wiped out. But where the hell would E Company have been the whole time? And why would there be 45 soldiers left when all of F Company and the Regimental Staff were dead? Did the Indians just not shoot at them?
At a different point, he seems to say they did what C Company did, which was charge to relieve pressure, but were counterattacked viciously and annihilated quickly, in the same area. Then its stated that about 10-15 soldiers ran for it at the end of the battle, from Custer Hill.
Also, for claiming that Custer's Battalion of F and E moved to a northern ford seems to be based not on any archaeology (that I can find in the book, anyway), but on moving the location of (some from very iffy accounts) of Custer's being stopped at the ford.
Fox actually believes that the 45-man E Company movement occurred "at some point quite early in the episode" of Custer Hill (pg. 201), though since he describes it immediately after recounting the final killings on the hill, it could be a little confusing.
My understanding of what Fox believes took place on Custer Hill is this: originally there were 80-odd men stationed at or near Last Stand Hill, consisting of companies E and F, plus headquarters. Keogh's battalion was smashed and annihilated, with about 20 survivors fleeing to the Custer Hill position. This brought the total up there to about 100.
Early in the action around Custer Hill, E moved to the South Skirmish Line position, perhaps in an attempt to relieve them of some Indian pressure. Fighting then took place simultaneously around both these spots. As unit cohesion disintegrated, E fled or was driven into Deep Ravine. Towards the end of the fight, about 15 troopers on Custer Hill rushed to join the survivors in and around Deep Ravine. The Indians rushed Custer Hill, killed what was left, while the last soldiers were slain over in Deep Ravine.
I wrote most of this from memory, without consulting the book, so I may not have given Fox's views as exactly as he would have wished.
R. Larsen
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 04 2003 : 3:56:49 PM
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So where's the basis that the last stand didn't occur Last Stand Hill? Because 10 soldiers or so ran for it? I really don't think they ran for a soldier position in Deep Ravine, they probably ran for the same cover that E Company sought earlier. I really doubt many soldiers were left in the Deep Ravine watershed when the 10-15 soldiers ran for it. And given the LSH position compared to DR, the soldiers on LSH would probably have lasted longer and been destroyed as a unit last. The E Company movement and subsequent destruction was an aggressive attack, and would have to be dealt with by the Indians. The soldiers on LSH were hiding behind horse corpses and surrounded on most if not all sides, and they weren't going anywhere.
There wasn't a last stand like Hollywood or early literary works would have us believe, but the last major position was LSH. DR troopers had to have been destroyed for the most part before the LSH position was overrun. If there were a few survivors running around like jackrabbits in the DR watershed, so be it. There were probably still wounded soldiers in the Calhoun and Keogh sections. Other soldiers were feigning death all over the field, and there's the officer who sat up, seemingly rising from the dead, somewhere on the ridge after the fight. Does this mean LSH wasn't the last place of major resistance? Ten soldiers running for it and trying to flee is not a stand, especially given the few cartridges found that could be attributed to this movement. Soldiers running for safety can't really engage in a stand. A stand, to me anyways, is an effort to hold out/drive back the enemy. A stand is when a fighting force decides its going nowhere else, and its going to fight it out at all costs. Surely, not everyone on that hill seemed to be behind this idea, but enough of them to deduce that there was a stand on LSH. Soldiers seemingly killed mounts to hide behind. Soldiers were picked off, and then a few ran for it. They might have been running for cover, or they might have figured it was better to get it over with than wait for death to come up to them. Or both. But there had to have been more soldiers still on the hill after the troopers ran for it.
I still believe many spent cartridges have been removed from LSH, enough that the struggle on LSH is now perceived as minimal. Surely, not everyone up there was fighting, but it seemed to be the place to run to from the Calhoun/Keogh sectors. But even if no collectors had ever taken a single cartridge from the hill, there's another valid reason for there not being many cartridges. What would the soldiers shoot at? The Indians were crawling towards their position, popping up to shoot and then disappearing again. That would be frustrating, and lead to soldiers aiming and then re-aiming again, trying to pick a target. Not to mention, many of the soldiers were probably scared ****less.
Have any cartridges from Custer's guns been found? |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
Edited by - El Crab on August 04 2003 4:00:44 PM |
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Anonymous Poster2321
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Posted - August 05 2003 : 12:12:41 PM
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If we credit eye witnesses to the immediate debris after the battle, the officers said that, except around Calhoun Hill, they were surprised by how few expended cartridges there were, and the lack of an organized defense, which is what spurred thoughts that it all happened very fast. It wasn't just Benteen who thought this.
How to meld that with current theories....
To address one issue, terrified soldiers shoot to reassure themselves; they don't need a target. In any case, they couldn't hit anything anyway.
Of course the field was pillaged for souvenirs, including casings, probably from the git go. Until it was suggested by authority that they shouldn't because it was history and later a crime, this was all cheerfully discussed. They're still doing it in Iraq, so it's safe to say this is a normal and assumable activity of the soldier.
It's also safe to assume that any travelling Indian fired a few for good measure into any exposed corpse for the next few years, that travelling whites might fire salutes and target practice on horse bones, that the Army honored the dead in annual celebration from local forts for a while in the ways militaries do, and probably did not police the shells but pocketed other stuff then exposed, and that a firearm or two was discharged on the field during the tenth anniversary and added to the salad.
When the Fetterman soldiers were interred here, and monuments dedicated, and friends mourned, and salutes fired, and others unrelated so honored, and practices held, and who knows what happened before it became 'protected' or even after, who knows where the shells were tossed or what happened. To draw conclusions from the LBH based on this sort of stuff is iffy to the extreme.
Fox's theories, ever evolving, have one major and consistent flaw. Custer is presented as having intents that he didn't pursue, he spends a lot of time doing not much of anything, whatever was going on is not typical of Custer, and from Weir Point on he had a good idea of the village size. No matter how you slice it, saying units of Custer came to the uncontested crossing and retreated to consider makes no sense if indeed crossing the river was his goal. Why then, go further north? If he's interested in getting the civvies, the uncontested crossing makes most sense. If true.
Neither time lines, coherence within the theories, or Custer's inclinations support any of this.
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 05 2003 : 1:48:04 PM
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| It would make more sense to cross the river uncontested, and chase them from behind. The valley was a much better terrain to move cavalry over, so pursuit of women and children on a flatter surface would be easier and faster than running north over broken terrain, looking for another crossing. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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Ken008
Recruit
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - April 13 2004 : 07:34:33 AM
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Fox's book is laughable at best. I start laughing everytime I read about his military modeling (tactics), so I have not been able to
finish his book even though I have had it since it first came out
in print. It is not good history, it may be good archaeology, but that is all. From what I have been able to read, Fox's interpretations of the battle are erroneous. |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - April 13 2004 : 10:55:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ken008
From what I have been able to read, Fox's interpretations of the battle are erroneous.
Such as?
R. Larsen
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 31 2004 : 9:20:59 PM
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| Fox's book is difficult to read as a goodly portion of it deals with the technicalities of fire arm signatures, and archaeology. Many people are turned off by such unpopular subjects. However, if patience prevails, a wealth of information is available for those who seek. The big picture becomes so clear when we digest information regarding the mental, physical, and psychological state of the participants in this battle. Fox shows that these factors are as complex as the battle itself. No single factor or person is responsible for the outcome. Fox, Gray, and Hardoff do much to explain what happened in the manner of Camp. |
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Rocky76
Corporal
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 31 2004 : 9:39:25 PM
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| I am not sure of Fox's sources, but Big Beaver told Joe Blummer and Dr. Marquis in 1928 that after the men on LSH were all down (some sitting up yet) that a group of men from the Grey horse troop jumped up over where the national cemetery is located now and ran towards the river...this was not a company sized movement but a small group of "survivors" running for their lives. this is the group that supposedly ended up in Deep Ravine...but may just as well have ran to cemetery ravine...who knows..Mike Donahue gave a talk last year based on the movement towards Ford D that impressed me...I had to leave early so missed the presentation, but Mike mailed me a copy. I have never accepted the Ford D theory, and I furnished the Big Beaver account to him, but he has made me think it is possible, maybe probable. |
Edited by - Rocky76 on May 31 2004 9:42:34 PM |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 01 2004 : 9:23:28 PM
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What may have happened is this, there were several movements towards Deep Ravine by the soldiers. Each movement was described truthfully by the respective reporter. Several Indians speak of a company size movement towards Deep Ravine from Custer Hill while others, describe a smaller number of soldiers running down the hill.
Big Beaver: "Some men, about fifteen, got over to the west, or on the E Troop position, and ran for the river, right down the coulee."
White Bull: estimated 10 soldiers bolted to the south, running just beneath the crest of Custer Ridge on its west side.
Two Moons: estimated that 100 men eventually congregated on Custer Hill. Finally, according to Two Moons, 5 horsemen and about 40 men on foot started toward the river.
What is being described is several different episodes. There are numerous reports that 20 t0 28 soldiers were discovered and, buried within the Cul de Sac of Deep Ravine.
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 01 2004 : 11:13:06 PM
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| As Michno said, dead men don't get up and run. Therefore, if the soldiers who ran for the river came from LSH, they had to have left BEFORE LSH was overrun. The warriors could not have overrun the position, killed everyone and then chased the runners. They had to have fled from either another location (never heard that) or before the hill was taken. They probably fled as the warriors converged on the hill, and I've read accounts of the soldiers running past warriors into the ravine, around the ravine, everywhere. So, as Michno said, the hill fell about the same time as warriors were killing the fugitives. And that's another spot where I disagree with Fox. Most of his book is great, but the Last Stand was on Last Stand Hill. It wasn't like in the paintings, but the last resistance was on the hill. The run to the river was not a run to holdouts in Deep Ravine, it was a run for survival. They tried to flee the killing field. And they didn't seem to resist, they just seemed to run. Therefore, the last stand or last fighting was not done by those running to the river... |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - June 02 2004 : 03:28:15 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by El Crab
As Michno said, dead men don't get up and run. Therefore, if the soldiers who ran for the river came from LSH, they had to have left BEFORE LSH was overrun. The warriors could not have overrun the position, killed everyone and then chased the runners. They had to have fled from either another location (never heard that) or before the hill was taken. They probably fled as the warriors converged on the hill, and I've read accounts of the soldiers running past warriors into the ravine, around the ravine, everywhere. So, as Michno said, the hill fell about the same time as warriors were killing the fugitives. And that's another spot where I disagree with Fox. Most of his book is great, but the Last Stand was on Last Stand Hill. It wasn't like in the paintings, but the last resistance was on the hill. The run to the river was not a run to holdouts in Deep Ravine, it was a run for survival. They tried to flee the killing field. And they didn't seem to resist, they just seemed to run. Therefore, the last stand or last fighting was not done by those running to the river...
A recent and most interesting theory claims that the 40 some odd soldiers that came off the hill and ran towards Deep Ravine did not come from Last Stand Hill. Instead, they came from the area of the National Cemetery. |
Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 02 2004 : 10:52:18 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bhist
[quote]A recent and most interesting theory claims that the 40 some odd soldiers that came off the hill and ran towards Deep Ravine did not come from Last Stand Hill. Instead, they came from the area of the National Cemetery.
I'm not sure there's much evidence of that.
Regarding the Last Stand Hill/Deep Ravine controversy, I think El Crab has it about right. It's possible the very last men standing were killed in Deep Ravine or elsewhere (one Indian said the last man died on Finley Ridge, presumably trying to flee the battleground), and we know from various accounts that the killing of the wounded went on for a while, long enough for the squaws to come up to the field and finish off several. But the fight was essentially over when the Indians took over Custer Hill. There's a report that one Indian was stabbed to death by a soldier in a skuffle in Deep Ravine, but other than that, and maybe one or two other little episodes, no combat took place there. Just killing.
R. Larsen
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 02 2004 : 11:30:57 AM
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That one Indian stabbed to death in the ravine was probably the only hand-to-hand instance that went the way of the bluecoats. I've heard that before, and its rather interesting think about it. The run for the river was essentially a buffalo hunt, with that exception. It really boggles my mind that there was a soldier or several soldiers that actually took out a warrior in hand to hand combat while running for their lives. At least one trooper seemed to have his wits. Then again, could have been Bouyer, though he was found outside of a ravine. Feather Earring, a Minneconjou, is the warrior who apparently mentions the stabbed-to-death Lakota in a ravine.
Several soldiers were said to have played dead, and they were killed after the fight was over. A couple others were said to have returned from the dead, sitting up when they were thought to have been dispatched already. And at least one of those unfortunate, dazed souls had the pleasure of having his head cut off with a knife while being held down. There were lots of soldiers alive but wounded after the fighting ended, and several who were probably unhurt. But that doesn't change the fact that there was a end to the battle, and it seemed to be on LSH. The runners had to have left BEFORE LSH was overrun, even if it was just moments before. After that, it was finishing off the wounded.
Michno makes a good case for LSH being the deadliest area in terms of Indian casualties. Of the 16 known kills, Michno believes the accounts point to 15 of those deaths took place in the LSH/SSL area. And he was kind enough to send me Bruce Trinque's "The Defense of Custer Hill" article via snail mail. Its quite interesting, and gives you the impression that some planning, albeit quick and forced, went into the defense of LSH. It didn't amount to much, but it appears that there was a last stand there, and soldiers killed horses in an effort to improve their chances in that stand.
I really don't believe that the run to the river was more than 10 soldiers. The 5 horsemen and 45 dismounted troopers account is very suspect, not for its story but for its numbers. I also don't believe the testimony necessarily supports the C Company charge, which very easily could have been the E Company charge. They're very similar, yet Fox has both, I believe, in his account. Curley said the command stopped at or near Finley Ridge, dropped off some soldiers and moved on. L Company deployed, and a portion of C Company apparently deployed on Finley. I also believe these soldiers on Finley account for some of the markers near the river to the south, such as "Mike", the skeleton discussed in the Nat'l Geographic article and other places. Michno's version makes sense, L was overrun eventually and then the Finley defenders were fired upon from Calhoun Hill. There were impacted bullets around Finley, that are believed to have come from Indian guns, from the direction of Calhoun Hill. The C Company theory just sounds like an effort to place that company SOMEWHERE doing SOMETHING. And if they were routed so badly, leading to the right wing's total collapse, where are all the bodies? It was rather bloodless (for such a battle-altering rout) until they got back into the Calhoun/Keogh sector, apparently. Like I said before, the C Company episode sounds just like the E Company episode, charge down to a low ridge, the warriors back off, then counterattack, destroying the company and sending some of its survivors back up the hill, others into a ravine/coulee, etc. If this happened to C Company, wouldn't Custer or someone have noticed? Especially if it resulted in the destructiong of the right wing and dooming the battalion? So why do the EXACT same thing with E Company, when they probably make up 40% of your remaining force? |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 02 2004 : 8:50:31 PM
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| Dead men do not get up and run. Desperate men who are about to die will run helter schelter in many directions to avoid death. Aapproximately 105 men gathered on Custer Hill moments before the final curtain. Of this, approximately, "forty or so." sprinted down the west slope. Most afoot, a few on horseback. The warriors themselves spoke of the "Bugler" who sounded his horn moments before men and horsemen ran down the western slope of Custer's Hill towards Deep Ravine. They said that the bugler was," a brave man too." All of the men did not participate in this charge; some remained behind. Eventually, Indian sharp shooters began to take a toll. Return fire from the hill deminished to a standstill. Thinking all the troopers were dead, the warriors charged. Suddenly a much smaller group of troopers, who were very much alive, sprinted down the hill, directly towards the startled Indians. They were quickly killed. |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 03 2004 : 12:20:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
Dead men do not get up and run. Desperate men who are about to die will run helter schelter in many directions to avoid death. Aapproximately 105 men gathered on Custer Hill moments before the final curtain. Of this, approximately, "forty or so." sprinted down the west slope. Most afoot, a few on horseback. The warriors themselves spoke of the "Bugler" who sounded his horn moments before men and horsemen ran down the western slope of Custer's Hill towards Deep Ravine. They said that the bugler was," a brave man too." All of the men did not participate in this charge; some remained behind. Eventually, Indian sharp shooters began to take a toll. Return fire from the hill deminished to a standstill. Thinking all the troopers were dead, the warriors charged. Suddenly a much smaller group of troopers, who were very much alive, sprinted down the hill, directly towards the startled Indians. They were quickly killed.
And those still alive on the hill were killed. And at least one warrior, Turtle Rib's nephew, was downed in the final struggle at LSH. And another warrior was struck on the leg as he headed up to LSH, and crawled into a ravine. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 03 2004 : 8:59:09 PM
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| Forgive me, but I don't have the slightest idea of the point you are trying to make. |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 04 2004 : 12:03:19 AM
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| That the last resistance on the Custer field was on Last Stand Hill, making the hill's name still valid. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 04 2004 : 8:25:37 PM
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| Virtually every Indian participant(Sioux and Cheyenne) report that the last troopers to to die did so in Deep Ravine. At the end, approximately seven men or so who, bolted for the ravine. For what ever reason, they perceived the ravine as an alternative, a last hope to Custer's Hill. Perhaps being surrounded by hundreds of warriors convinced then that the ravine could offer a place to hide due to the deep foilage that existed at that time. This conclusion makes sense when one realizes that the arrows being lobbed upon the hill must have made matters very hot. There was no cover to protect the troopers. |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 04 2004 : 11:49:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
Perhaps being surrounded by hundreds of warriors convinced then that the ravine could offer a place to hide due to the deep foilage that existed at that time.
There was deep foliage there?
R. Larsen
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 05 2004 : 03:51:17 AM
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I've read the grass was fairly tall on the field. The troopers ran this way and that, there's no guarantee they were originally heading for any ravine. And again, they had to have left Last Stand Hill BEFORE it was overrun, otherwise they would not have been able to run.
Virtually every Indian participant said the last troopers to die did so in Deep Ravine? The last troopers to die were the wounded and those feigning death. And this probably was all over the field. I would guess the last soldier to die was the one who was stripped naked and a couple women put a knife to his genitals. He decided playing dead had lasted long enough at that point, and a few warriors laughed as he "danced" with the women before they finally stabbed him. And there are plenty of accounts that speak of the last fighting on LSH. The warriors killing the soldiers in Deep Ravine would say that was the last of soldiers to die, and those finishing off the LSH remnants would say the same. It happened about the same time.
And again, a few soldiers running doesn't change the fact that the last fighting most likely occurred on LSH. Running for your life does not constitute fighting. And there were enough warriors to, at the same time, quickly dispatch the soldiers running AND move up the hill and finish off the last of the last there. And like I said, at least one warrior, Turtle Rib's nephew, was killed (see Lakota Noon) and another was struck on the leg. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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Fox's Book
