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frankboddn
Major
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - July 09 2008 : 02:19:27 AM
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Joe, I think Custer had a good plan, one that had worked at Wa****a and in general when attacking an Indian village. But I think what he lacked was proper reconnaisance, knowledge of the strength and size of the village, and I do believe he thought he had the troops in the 7th to handle any number of Indians.
I think he blew it when he sent Benteen on his scout to the left, although maybe he had his tactical reasons. And he really blew it when he was more or less forced to allow Reno--in my opinion an ill-equipped officer as an Indian fighter--to lead the charge into the village. Could Benteen have done better there? Probably. But If it had been Benteen with the 140 or so soldiers charging the village, the results probably would have been the same.
I think on that day, at that place and fighting that many Indians with their just being flushed with victory over Crook, the Indians just weren't going to be defeated.
SO, bottom line, yeah, Custer was responsible for his defeat. It would be interesting to know how other officers such as Ranald McKenzie or Wesley Merritt would have handled the whole thing.
In reviewing this post, I see i must have hit "New Topic" instead of replying to a post. My bad.
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 09 2008 : 06:48:30 AM
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| Agree with almost all of what you say! I do think poor Reno was finished almost before he started with that "You'll be supported by the whole outfit" ringing in his ears. When that support failed to materialize, that charge was functionally over. What happened shortly thereafter was simply Reno becoming unglued and losing control. |
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frankboddn
Major
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 09 2008 : 1:36:52 PM
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| Right, Brent. The "You'll be supported" statement's meaning has been debated. Did it mean Benteen would return from his scout and support him in the valley? Did it mean Custer himself would come up the valley from the north or the south? I think the bottom line is that no matter who was leading the charge into the valley, with only 140 or so men, had they continued into the village, they'd have all been wiped out. |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 09 2008 : 8:26:42 PM
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Frank, glad to hear from you! Not much I can add to the above except to re-emphasize the "you'll be supported by the whole outfit" statement. Despite training in the Academy which, throughly discussed numerous ways to render "support", Reno's quick glance to the rear and not seeing Custer terrified him. Having molded (in an unbendable,mental vice) his idea of how a support movement should be rendered, he fell apart when it did not appear as he felt it should. Panic ensued and he, subsequently,called for a skirmish line to be formed. A calvary on foot is an infantry and loses any advantage it possess!
Don't misunderstand me. No commander regardless of how brave and competent he may be can lead 140 men through a village that size if the warriors stood their ground;it would have been mass suicide. However,what if Reno had traveled a further 100 yards towards the village? Isn't it possible that the initial panic among the village could have snow balled into a mass frenzy?
If not that, what if Reno had stood upon the skirmish line (were a commander would be most effective directing weapons fire)rather than darting into the timber for some supposed infiltration of Indians? Who knows how the final outcome may have then plated out.
I honestly do not mean to make Reno the scapegoat for the entire affair. He, Custer, Benteen, and the others were ordered to be there leaving them no choice. In the final analysis, perhaps it's safe to say that so many mistakes were made that it was impossible for the 7th. to defeat the village. Regardless,I believe that there existed (for a very short time)a window of opportunity to extricate Custer's command from annihilation that was simply wasted. |
Edited by - joe wiggs on July 09 2008 8:39:49 PM |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 10 2008 : 07:04:32 AM
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From what I've read, Reno certainly have continued a bit farther than he did. And also from what I've read, the Village was initially suprised and disorganized and as a result, initially there wasn't much Indian opposition. So you are right--what every commander wants--SUPRISE.
But I guess it goes back full circle to Reno knowing he had but 140 men and not then being sure how, when, or where all that promised support was coming from. So he saw a bit more Indian opposition forming and just stopped. As if to say "I can't handle any more of this w/o help!" |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 11 2008 : 9:26:06 PM
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| Ironically, even though I genuinely feel that Reno's participation in this battle was dismal, I don't think it is fair to morally judge him. Some leaders are born to lead, others are assigned that task by a governing agency. When faced with an awesomely dangerous situation the inability to react in a manner that draws praise is not an indicator of cowardice. Reno was not a coward! No man, on either side, of that battle was cowardly. Some did, however, fight better than others. |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 12 2008 : 07:13:48 AM
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| Joe: I'd never call him a coward. Far from it. I see him as a perfectly ordinary commander who--when faced with a tough situation and things developing way too quickly--faltered. Then became a bit unglued. |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 12 2008 : 12:23:41 PM
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Brent, I apologize for a mis-leading thread for I certainly did not mean to imply that you were referring to Reno as a coward. I did mean to say that "you" were judging him. I meant the collective "we" should not judge to harshly. Your threads have all way been absolutely fair, informative, and interesting.
I was addressing my own threads of the past few years and, realized how they may have appeared to you and,other members of the forum, as Reno bashing. Sometimes I feel as though I'm beating the man to death but, his role was but one of many that resulted in the fatal end of the battle. |
Edited by - joe wiggs on July 12 2008 12:24:56 PM |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 15 2008 : 6:39:38 PM
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I think for the most part we who now sit back and judge history have
a habit of looking for a scapegoat. The LBH was a disaster from the
get go. Custer made mistakes and did alot of things he should have
not done, but it did. So now for 100 years we have been trying to put
the blame on two officers that happen to live trough it all.
I have never been to keen on Reno or Benteen, but I guess I was looking
for a scapegoat, and didn't want to blame Custer. But when you look at
the picture, one did his best, and the other had no real part in any
thing except to scout a number of ridges. Major Reno was sent to attack
an Indian village, and with the promise he would be supported. When he
made that attack, that was clearly in his mind, but when he is attack-
ed by overwhelming numbers of Indians and no support what was he to do.
What was he suppose to do, men up on the bluffs while is in the valley
fighting for his life. Hardly enough to say the man was a coward, or
a failure as an officer, he carried out his orders, it is easy for us
to be arm chair Generals. The only thing I have against Reno is the
way in which he conducted his retreat, which cost many a man his life.
As for Benteen, he had orders and he carried them out, he did as his
commander had told him. And when he found no Indians he back on Custer's
trail as instructed. He was then sent an order to come quickly and to
bring the packs. Where, to who, the order had no other instructions as
to where he was to go, was he to go to Custer, Reno does not say, and
at the time Benteen got the order where was Custer, did he sit and wait
no, he kept moving away to the north,when Bentten got the order he was
several miles away from Custer, and even if he had asked Martin or Sgt
Kanipe, they could not tell where he was, for each time he sent a man
with a message he moved. There is no way that Benteen could have gotten
to Custer, His command consisted of 3 companies which more then likely
would have been wiped before they ever got to Custer.
There is only one person that can shoulder the blame for the LBH and
that is Custer himself. He was the commander on the ground, he and he
alone has to except the responsibilty for his regiment. Yes we can
find mistakes that Reno and Benteen made, but in no way was it mis-
takes that cost the lives 5 companies of men, plus some fine officers.
I think the time has come for us to quit looking for scapegoats. I do
think in order to that, we should start at the mouth of the Rosebud
for I think what ever happened to Custer started there. Not on the
LBH battlefield. |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 15 2008 : 7:38:25 PM
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A very well written post Sgtmajor, well thought out and comprehensive. I do not completely agree with your stand regarding Benteen's actions and, I'll explain why. Before doing so, please let me say that you are totally correct regarding Custer's responsibilities for what occurred. The commander of any command must, ultimately, accept responsibility for the outcome of any battle. It is also true that we are prone to play "armchair general", deciding who was right and who was wrong. I am just thankful that I did not have to made the military decisions that faced these men.
I believe that Benteen did not choose to disobey Custer but, his actions were affected by circumstances beyond his control. Sgt. Kanipe's shouts and screams of "We got'em boys" would have led anyone to believe that the battle was already well in hand.
Also,the order received was somewhat ambiguous in that the "bring pac's" portion of the order led Benteen to correctly believe that he could not "hurry" and "bring pac's" simultaneously as the mule trail was more than a mile on the back trail. Even Weir, a Custer admirer did not question Benteen's decision to move forward after being shown the order. My theory is that Custer was relaying the message that to cut loose the ammunition packs, if necessary,because bullets would be needed to deal with the "large village" that lay before him.
Martini also led Benteen, and others, to believe that the battle was literally over and the gallant 7th. victorious. Where, I think, Benteen may be criticized is that he failed to follow through with his original order which instructed him to ascertain the disposition of the Little Big Horn valley (and ridges between) and, report his findings immediately; something he simply did not do!
He probably did not do so because being the old, cantankerous individual that he was he may have assumed that the "upstart" general had purposely left him out of the "party." Only later, when the realization that Custer's command had been wiped out were the actions of Benteen, as brave a soldier as could be imagined, was questioned. |
Edited by - joe wiggs on July 15 2008 7:51:08 PM |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 16 2008 : 11:11:44 AM
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I agree-I think Benteen was a bit miffed at being sent on what he suspected all along was a fool's errand and was in no real hurry to report what he didn't find.
And again--"quick" meant "quick". Quick because we're getting the hell beaten out of us, or quick because all the Indians might be getting away..not for Benteen to actually make that distinction ahead of time, before he arrived back on the scene as ordered.
I agree with those authors who feel that Custer expected Benteen's timely return. |
Edited by - Brent on July 16 2008 11:13:36 AM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 16 2008 : 4:20:02 PM
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"Get ready for school. Be quick!"
"Get ready for school. Come quick!"
That's the difference. In any case, as Custer himself wrote up, you can only do what the mounts can do, and arrive in condition to perform. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 16 2008 : 9:44:00 PM
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Quick means quick understandable. When talking of Benteen it always
comes down to the order, be "quick" but there are two parts to that
order, the other part "bring Packs, P.S.Bring Packs. He was not only
told to be quick, but also to bring the packs. Now how fast could you
move on tired horses plus a pack train.
Now I am going back again to what I said before. Where I am to go. In
the transcripts of the RCOI, the question was asked of Martin. Did Capt
Benteen as you where the Gen. Custer was.He said yes, and gave this answer
"I said that I suppose that by that time he had charged through the
village". In an interview with Walter Camp Oct 24,1908. Benteen asked
where is Gen.Custer, Martin said 3 miles from here. Benteen asked if
he was beinging attacked or not. Martin said yes he is under attack.
If this is true then Martin was wrong in his statement. When Martin
left Custer he was half way between Weir Point and MTC, a distance
of 4 or 5 miles. And when he left Custer he was not under attack, but
Reno was, but did not mention Maj Reno. That information in either
case could mean anything as to his position. If it had not been for
some Indian scouts that had cought Benteen's attention, and directed
him to the right, he may have ended up in the valley, confronting
the same Indians Reno did.
By the time he reached Reno Custer was most likely already across MTC
and headed north. By this time Indians would have been all over that
area. I am not in no way saying that Reno or Benteen didn't make some
mistakes. In my own opinion, Benteen had an order from Custer,however
when he got to Reno, he did show him the order. He told Benteen to stop
and to help him, basicly to that effect. Benteen was a Capt and Reno
a Major. Reno seen the order and knew it was Benteen's duty to carry
out that order as instructed by Custer. In my opinion Reno by doing
what he did had over ridden those orders. By the time he reach Reno
Hill that order no longer came in to play. There was nobody on that
hill that was going to get to Custer.Let me try to explain how it worked.
Take your right hand or left, spread your fingers and lay it on a map
of the LBH battlefield, in between each of those fingers is soldiers.
From Reno Hill to Custer Hill, the fingers nothing but Indians |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 17 2008 : 07:45:07 AM
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Oh I agree that when Benteen reached Reno, he had little choice but to at least stop and see what damage had been done to Reno. Custer, expecting Benteen to come to him, had no way of knowing that Reno was already a beaten man and Benteen would decide to remain with Reno.
But remember-Benteen was already under verbal orders to "hurry back and rejoin the command" if nothing was found on his litle expedition. There was no need to wait for any written order. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 17 2008 : 1:34:11 PM
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We have to remember that Benteens orders was to hunt that valley.
As Benteen said himself, that he did not know where the valley was.
He was sent from one ridge to an other by Custer. Here again it was
Benteen himself that said. He shouldered the responsibility of not
having found any valley and moved to reach the trail that Custer's col-
umn had followed, endeavering by speed to make up for precious time
that had been lost in our futile hunt for the valley.
If Benteen had not done this on his own,to get back to the trail I don't
believe, Martin or Sgt Kanipe would have found him without covering many
miles. All anybody had was the general directions he took, and would be
willing to bet other then Custer, nobody knew his orders. Just as I am
sure that Benteen knew nothing of Custer or Maj Reno. |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 17 2008 : 7:40:27 PM
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SgtMajor, on of the greatest misconceptions of this battle are Benteen's order to "hunt that valley!" At the Reno Inquiry, Benteen went to great lengths to make the order appear ambiguous, idiotic, and nonsensical as possible. He went to such an extreme as to state that his turning back was "providential". The best "Benteenism" for me, was that when he turned about from the bluffs he was in "violation" of orders that would have taken him "to Fort Benton."
His reason for doing so, I believe, was due to the unwarranted heat he received for not coming to Custer's rescue. Whether he could or could not have accomplish that extremely difficult (if not impossible) task was irrelevant as far as the publics hue and cry for somebody's head. As a result, a brave but, cantankerous man, resorted to sheer fabrications to combat the allegations of malfeasance of duty slammed against him.
Custer gave Benteen his orders at the divide halt with no witnesses to the exchange. Later, at the Inquiry, Benteen must have believed he was safe in his fibbing. However, the truth was exposed (earlier)in a letter dated July 4, th., 1876 written by Benteen himself:
"The directions I received from Gen. Custer were to move with my command to the left, to send well mounted officers with about 6 men, who would ride rapidly to a line of bluffs about 5 miles to our left and front with instructions to report to me (Benteen) if anything of Indians could be seen from that point. I was to follow the movement of this detachment as RAPIDLY AS POSSIBLE!"
Benteen's reference to a line of bluffs 5 miles off are misleading. The first line of bluffs was only 1 mile away!
Lt Gibson wrote a letter to Godfrey, August 8, 1908.
"As to the little scout to the left to find the LITTLE BIG HORN BATTLE, I can state definitely that I did find it and see it...I crossed one insignificant stream running through a narrow valley which I knew was not the Little Big Horn Valley."According to calculations by the author John S.Gray, the completion of Benteen's scout was 7 3/4 miles. The distance to this point by Custer's trail was 6 3/4 miles. Beenteen had actually traveled one extra mile! |
Edited by - joe wiggs on July 17 2008 8:12:17 PM |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 18 2008 : 06:47:46 AM
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Gray pretty well sums it up:
"As it turned out, Benteen was in fact left behind. He ignored repeated ORDERS to hurry and never reported by courier, two omissions which add up to indiscretion. When it later developed that Custers Battalion was wiped out, Benteen
must have realized that his indiscretion had spared his battalion the same fate as Custers. This recognition apparently drove him to an indefensible cover-up, so simplistic as to be transparent---"
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Edited by - Brent on July 18 2008 06:49:12 AM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 18 2008 : 12:34:42 PM
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I think not. Just as nobody has been able to show how Reno's run for it could have been done better with less loss of men and mounts, nobody has been able to show that Benteen dawdled. As Custer himself condescendingly informed the goober masses, the concept of hurry with horses meant hurry with ability to arrive and able to perform. Benteen's horses hadn't been watered since 8 ish the previous night at a stream many horses shied away from. Sixteen hours in a blazingly hot day, they arrive at a 'morass' of indeterminate location, where horses had to be succored in sections. You do not fill up horses with water and dash away for the same reason humans can't do it.
This is predicated on the baseless assumption that Reno or Benteen wanted Custer and all his men killed. Had ANYone thought that about either, they'd have received a bullet on the field, reported as Indian in the paperwork, just like the coward who refused to obey Benteen's charge received. They would have ALL the upside and none of the down by saving Custer, so there isn't even a plausible motivation for the accusation. And this above the fact everyone would be needed.
To what "repeated orders" does Gray refer? State them. I greatly admire Gray, but I do not agree with this conclusions which his own assertions of fact do not entirely support. And, as I say, 'be quick' is not the same - at all - from 'come quick.' Nobody thought the note was indicative of problem, just that the action had started and bring/protect the packs. In aggregate with Martin's oral information, Benteen had no reason to do other than he did: arrive on the field ready for action in a timely manner with the train protected. The only officer to do so, if the collapsed Co C riders are indicative, and if the Indian accounts about cavalry horse condition are basically true.
Further, Gibson said he'd found the valley with nothing in it. Gray says Benteen completed his mission. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on July 18 2008 12:36:15 PM |
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frankboddn
Major
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 18 2008 : 4:06:05 PM
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Had ANYone thought that about either, they'd have received a bullet on the field, reported as Indian in the paperwork, just like the coward who refused to obey Benteen's charge received.
DC, could you please refresh my memory as to the story of the coward with Benteen? |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 18 2008 : 6:26:22 PM
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The story is that when Benteen led the charge to clear the area around his position, they had zippo casualties from the Indians. One supposed coward lay weeping and didn't make the charge with the others. When the group returned, the suddenly accurate and motivated Sioux Sharpshooter brigade put a bullet between the eyes of this individual, still on the ground, from distance, something they could not do during the recent past at those standing before them much closer. Highly suspicious, what? And, I'd bet, totally accepted.
Assuming this happened, I'd be less than shocked to think the bullet was from Benteen's, or another officer's, pistol. That would be accepted and something to not mention. Ever. I have reason to think this sort of thing happened in every war, including Vietnam, not a few times. One guy gets away with it, more the next time. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 18 2008 : 6:30:39 PM
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I am kind of in the dark here, please explain to me who was given Benteen
repeated orders to hurry up, and where did anybody get the idea that Capt
Benteen was to rescue Custer, there was nothing in the order given to
Benteen by Martin that Custer was in any danger or was even being attack-
by the Indians, even John Martin could not do that, nor could he tell
Benteen that Custer was being attacked, the last he seen of Custer was
at MTC. Even what had been said by Martin to WC in 1908, Martin was not
given WC true facts. I have read many statements by Martin, this is the
only one he mentioned to Benteen that Custer was under attack. Brininstool
writing at the end of Martins story said, Benteen was not able to carry
out his orders it was an utter impossibility for him to do so. The bearer
of his last urgent message for help, which was to late to give.
Even here written by Brininstool, how does "Be Quick" turn into a plea
for help, or "Big Village", or "Bring Packs. Does indicate that you are
under attack by hordes of Indians, or that you are in anyway in danger
In th Transcripts of the COI, Martin was asked how long it took him to
get to Capt Benteen, he said 3/4 to and hour, on a tired horse. And it
approx 3 miles. So how long would it have taken 3 companies of cavalry
and a pack train on tired horses to go 4 or 4 1/2 mile.
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 19 2008 : 07:56:22 AM
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Cookes order "Quick"--that was written. And Benteens original ORDERS (according to Gibson, who should know as well as anyone) were to "hurry and rejoin the command" after his little scout was over. An order, in my book. And how about Knaipe "IF you see Cpt Benteen, tell him to come QUICK-big Indian camp".
That's three orders to return quick. Speed is of the essence. And I'll suggest again, it didn't really matter if Custer was in trouble or not--Benteen had no business supposing he could take his time just because Custer might NOT be in truoble. His job was to come quick--period.
And once again Gray: "The moment Benteen reached Reno Hill, he underwent a remarkable transformation from a recalcitrant and contemptuous subordinate to a conspicuious and inspiring leader---" |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 19 2008 : 10:27:18 AM
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That's Gray's opinion, not decided fact.
Anything that appears after 1879 need be inhaled with appreciation for the passage of time and peer pressure on participants and media. Kanipe is wholly suspect, because neither of the two officers with the train support his story, which changed, like Martin's, over the years. Custer would not have called Benteen a captain, but used the brevet rank, among other things, and this story appeared late.
Kanipe knew about Martin's note, is all. Martin himself added on the meeting with Boston, and that Custer was under attack when he left, etc. Not there in the RCOI, where there is no mention of Boston, Benteen tells him his horse is wounded (which Benteen testified as well), and Boston was likely already there when Martin left, since Martin says "brothers" and even when asked about meeting people on the way back, doesn't mention meeting Boston. If he had, such a pitch perfect (a bit too, but...)story would made the rounds had the yappy Martin mentioned this to anyone. Apparently he did not until he recalled it three decades later.
I direct your attention to Custer's description of "quick" in regard to cavalry horses. I think it's in the Yellowstone write up but might be in MLOTP. By Custer's definition, and everyone with cavalry, Benteen was fine.
Experienced combat officers often don't think much of Custer's note via Cooke. Lousy orders. Uninformative. The note doesn't tell Benteen to come to Custer, and in any case events with Reno precluded that dubious interpretation.
You can jump up and down about the inclusion of the word "quick", but it was not "come quick." What the message says, to me, using the terminology of the time.
Benteen,
"Come on(ward)." This means come forward to us, not 'hurry up' or 'get it together' as today has it.
Big village. (apparently this was news, else why state what they had known before deployment?) Be quick.(but/and...) Bring packs. PS Bring pacs."
His concern are the packs, since it's repeated twice in such a short note. Be quick and drag the anchor.
The difference between "come quick" and "be quick" I exampled previous.
"Get ready for school. Be quick." (be quick about it, and there is no indication the parent expects to see the kid previous to leaving on the bus.)
"Get ready for school. Come quick. (come to me asap after you're ready.)
Quite different. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 19 2008 : 12:26:05 PM
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I guess we disagree! Which with all things LBH, seems to be common among the students of the battle.
Tounge in cheek of course, a question to Beenten at the Reno court might have gone something like this:
Q. Captain, you do realize that Custer and his entire immediate command were wiped out?
A. Yes. Regretable. Most unfortunate. But I had fresh horses. And didn't lose a single mule!! |
Edited by - Brent on July 19 2008 12:29:45 PM |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 19 2008 : 2:25:26 PM
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What Benteen may have said, or what he didn't do, the basic information
he had as to what his orders were is only known to 3 people and two
were killed. Only Custer and Cooke knew what Benteen, and Reno were to
do. Custer knew when he sent Benteen, he was not going to find anything.
Custer himself never believed there was even a village there. And why did
Custer send Benteen without any scouts, why did Benteen have to use his
own troops to scout. Let me say this yes we disagree, and I for one will
continue to disagree, until someone can show me more proof that Benteen
failed to support Custer. And if any kind of proof was there, then it
would have been a BCOI. Custer himself can only be blamed for what happen-
ed to his command on Custer Hill.
It is interesting for me to note, Walter Camp had interviews with several
men of the 7th. One was 1st Sgt John Henley of Co "B", during the Yellow-
stone Expedition Custer got himself into a fight with some Indians. he had
lost some men and was in good shape until Stanley arrived with some artillery.
Later night sitting around a camp fire was some 7th officers encluding
Capt Yates. Henley heard one of them remark: "Gentleman, it is only a
question of time until Custer will get us into hole of which we will not
be able to escape" Who ever that officer was I hope he wasn't at the LBH.
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Responsibility for Custer's defeat.
