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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - July 19 2008 : 7:59:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
To what "repeated orders" does Gray refer? State them. I greatly admire Gray, but I do not agree with this conclusions which his own assertions of fact do not entirely support. And, as I say, 'be quick' is not the same - at all - from 'come quick.' Nobody thought the note was indicative of problem, just that the action had started and bring/protect the packs. In aggregate with Martin's oral information, Benteen had no reason to do other than he did: arrive on the field ready for action in a timely manner with the train protected. The only officer to do so, if the collapsed Co C riders are indicative, and if the Indian accounts about cavalry horse condition are basically true.
Joe Wiggs
I checked my post and could not find a reference where I indicated that Gray referred to "repeated orders" from Custer to Benteen so I'm not sure where that came from. I too admire Gray for his meticulous analysis of this battle. He received two subsequent orders from Custer delivered by Henry Voss and William H. Sharrow. (Gray p.260)
Dark Cloud
Further, Gibson said he'd found the valley with nothing in it. Gray says Benteen completed his mission.
Joe wiggs
Actually, Gibson clearly stated that he had found the military intelligence that Custer so desperately needed needed. That being:
"From the top of it I could see plainly up the Little Big Horn Valley for a long distance with the aid of glasses, but in the direction of the village I could not see far on account of a sharp turn in it."
Gray wrote: "That these follow-up orders permitted Benteen to go beyond the first and second ridges seem certain. It is equally certain that they did not countermand the initial order to hurry and rejoin the main command as quickly as possible. Benteens claim that he was given discretion to return only if he found no Indians seems absurd. He ignored repeated orders to hurry and never reported by courier, two omissions that add up to indiscretion." Gray seems a little harsh in his judgment. He did not, to my knowledge state that Benteen had "completed his mission."
In Legend into History, Charles Kuhlman states: "There was probably not an officer in the regiment who did not know that there was only one river Benteen could be expected to find in this direction, namely, the The Little Big Horn.
It is important to understand that this was the purpose of his mission, to ensure that the Village was situated to Custer's military front and, that no Indians were attempting to escape up the Little Big Horn Valley.
Let us look at things from a slightly different perspective, why did Benteen lie, under oath, about the orders from Custer? Why does anyone lie if not to conceal something that is harmful to the one who lies. Remember the letter's written by Benteen himself and Gibson prove that Benteen received specific orders from Custer to which he, subsequently, denied at the Reno Inquiry.
Finally, I agree with you that to charge Benteen with "Dawdling" is unfair. He did not. Nor did he hurry! Perhaps, as I suggested, he deemed his actions on the scout as open to question by Custer supporters and, protected himself from second guessers.
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Edited by - joe wiggs on July 19 2008 8:35:39 PM |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
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Posted - July 22 2008 : 9:00:15 PM
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In Wayne M. Sarf's book, "The Little Bighorn Campaign" he writes about
Lt. Gibson. "Seeing neither valley or Indians, Benteen concluded that
there was nothing to be found in this direction" " This impression was
reinforced when Gibson, surveying the landscape with field glasses from
a high ridge, could finally see up the Little Bighorn valley, But found
his view downstream blocked by various promontories and the river's
irregular course. Sense his subordiate could see neither lodges or any
warriors, Benteen decided to return to the trail." If Lt Gibson came
down from that ridge and he could see nothing, and if Benteen hadn't
been up there himself, then I can't see how you can say he lied.
Keep one thing in mind when Custer went up to the Crow's Nest every-
one there could see the Valley, the horse heard the smoke from the
lodges, but Custer said he could see nothing, and he had field glasses
with him.
I was doing some research not to long ago when I came across a site much
the same as this one. And I remember reading a post by Dark Cloud, and
he was talking about Lt. Gibson. He said that Gibson seems to have con-
fused the LBH with a tributary of Reno Creek. Lt. Varnum had seen every-
thing, he claims he had seen Indians in the bottom for an hour or more
before the separation of Custer and Reno took place.
He also said that he seen the village on the left bank of the LBH. Also
the timber, and he could see Tepee's, immense number of Indians from
the tops of the bluffs while scouting, and he knew there was a large
village there. He says he reported to Custer as Reno was leaving, and
he says it was a mile from where Reno crossed the river. |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 23 2008 : 8:58:16 PM
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Sgt major, I have not had the opportunity to read Mr. Sarf's book as yet, I hope to do so in the near future. I am certain that your quote is correctly stated as part of the author's research. I also agree that nothing (of Indians or a village) was seen by Gibson or Benteen. However, I sincerely believe that Lt. Gibbon searched the Little Big Horn valley (not some unknown ravine) with binoculars, saw that the valley was clear as far as he could see, and informed Benteen of those important facts. Why do I believe so? Because both men admitted as much themselves in written correspondence.
"Some historians have maintained that the only view Gibson had at his last vantage point did not provide sight of the valley of the Little Big Horn (Dale Kosman, Custer researcher, conversation with the author, January 9, 2006). But Gibson, an ardent admirer and defender of Benteen, emphatically claimed that he had seen the valley. In Gibbon's account, published in the February 20, 1897, New York Evening Post, he wrote:
'I got to the valley and found it as quite as the grave itself. Up the valley I could see a long distance, but in the direction of the village only a short one, owning to the turn in the valley'As I posted earlier, Lt. Gibbon wrote a letter to Godfrey in which he stated:
"I could see plainly up the Big Horn Valley."
The point of contention that I am stressing is that Benteen testified that he had no idea what his mission was and, that Custer,basically, sent him on a wild Goose chase. Custer's desire, I thing, was not to stumbled into another Wa****a.
Once the Lieutenant ascertained that the valley was clear (as far as he could see) and, informed Benteen of this, a currier should have been sent to Custer immediately. That was the primary purpose of the scout.
The second, but equally important, portion of the mission was for Benteen to return to Custer as quickly as possible. He did not!:
Lt. Godfrey: "After we watered we continued our march very leisurely." (Two and a half years later he changed this to "Our gait was increased to a trot.")
Edgerly testified that after they left the water hole they,"moved at a fast walk all the distance."
Trooper William Morris later wrote: "Miller, of his [Benteen]troop, who occupied an adjoining cot next to mine in the hospital at Fort Abraham Lincoln, told me that they walked all the way, and that they heard the heavy firing while they were watering their horses."
(Brady p. 404)
Despite Dark Cloud's erroneous assertion that the horses were played out, in actuality they were far from it. Due to the "advance" headed by Lt. Gibson, Benteen's mounts were spared the difficult ascent and descents of the hills that Gibson traveled thus, they did not become jaded. It is true that the mounts were thirsty as they had not had any water since the previous day. However, twenty minutes at the "morass" surly must have taken care of that. Could not five minutes of watering been sufficient, if Benteen was in a hurry?
In summation, Benteen made every effort to show that he was completely unaware of orders from Custer (despite his own written admission in a letter)and, that he turned about on his on volition because it would have been nonsensical to go further. He was right, it would have been silly to continue. However, he actually arrived at that conclusion due to the accomplishment of his mission, not because he had a sudden epiphany.
Benteen was an excellent soldier who, I believe, felt he was being slighted when he received his assignment. This perceived "slight" placed him a dark funk that clouded his judgment. He would never,consciously,disobey orders regardless of what he thought of them. Were it not for his actions and that of Lt. Godfrey, Reno Hill would have been a site of much more devastation than occurred.
Later, when unsubstantiated accusations of malfeasance of duty popped up, he realized that his "scout" would be used against him. Benteen also knew that had he arrived a hour earlier, Terry would have found his decomposing body on the battlefield also. The bottom line is that as distasteful as it is to chastise the memory of a brave soldier, he did lie! Under the circumstances he found himself under perhaps many of us may have done the same. This unfortunate reality does not subtract, one iota, from his remarkable ability to soldier. |
Edited by - joe wiggs on July 23 2008 9:33:30 PM |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
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Posted - July 23 2008 : 10:16:15 PM
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Joe, I do agree with you on alot of what you have stated. However keep
in mind that Lt. Varnum had the information that Custer was looking for.
The question becomes, when he said he reported to Custer, did he tell
Custer what he had seen on his Scout. Also keep in mind that without
any information on the valley or the village, he had committed Reno to
an attack. He did this without ever knowing what Reno was going to run
into, and it could have been a trap, and it maybe that Custer was going
to support Reno, but maybe the information he may have received from
Varnum changed his plan, and decided to go to the right and up to the
bluffs. All this depends on what he was told by Varnum.
Custer was way ahead of Benteen on the trail, and I believe he knew
where Benteen was, Martin claimed that Custer would stop on the trail
and looked around, could he have seen Benteen from time to time. We
know that some of those in Benteen's command said that could see the
gray horse troop from time to time while on their scout to the left.
I do believe that Varnum had the information that Custer was looking
for, Custer was some miles from Benteen when he separated from Reno
He knew where the village was, he knew Indians were there, and we
also know that Cooke and Keogh rode with Reno Reno, which I am sure
they were checking out the situation for Custer. This leaves me to
feel that when Varnum reported to Custer, he told, what he had seen
and then went after Reno to join his command.
Therefore anything that Benteen had found or could have relayed to
Custer would have been immaterial, as Custer already had the information
and if really wanted Benteen up at that moment he would have sent Ben-
teen a more forceful order to get his command up. We have to keep one
thing in mind the LBH has great deal of mythology attached to it, and
this is just a small part of it, and that mythology will continue for
an other 100 years or more. |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
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Posted - July 24 2008 : 3:26:05 PM
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Just re-reading Gray and came across an interesting Benteen "aside" that I hadn't noticed before. According to Gray (P.325)when Benteen decided to turn back from Weir Peak (after reluctantly following Weir there!), he did so with just his own command, without any warning or instructions to the other 3 companies.
And I still feel Benteen knew that his little mission was intended to be a brief one, knew early on there were no Indians to be seen, and he should have informed Custer of that fact. He could have and should have returned to "rejoin the command" much earlier (and probably faster) than he did. And deep down, I really think he knew that!! |
Edited by - Brent on July 24 2008 3:27:36 PM |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 24 2008 : 4:15:14 PM
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SgtMajor,
I'm not certain if Varnum had the information that Custer needed. Let me explain why. A little before two O'clock, about ten miles above the divide (South Fork&Reno Creek), Herendeen, Hare, and Varnum came across an abandoned campsite that stretched for about a half mile along the north side of the creek, at the end of which was the "Lone Tepee." From a nearby high,bluff these men saw Indians running away. It was at this time that Varnum relayed this news to Custer (as his command arrived shortly thereafter) that the Indians were in the valley some 5 beeline miles distant and apparently running away.
This information did not render the exact location of the huge, standing village that Custer was seeking. It did prompt Custer to order Reno to "lead out at a trot" in pursuit of the smaller,fleeing village. There was no reason whatever to order a charge command at that point; the fleeing Indians/village were heading for the Sioux Camp which was some 7 miles distant and, hidden in the pursuant valley. As Gray states, "a 7-mile charge is a contradiction in terms."
What I'm suggesting is that Varnum witness the 50 or so Indians who had recently departed from the abandoned camp (the campfires were still smoldering) running towards the general direction of the Big Horn village. It was this group that Gerard referred to when he shouted to Custer, "There go your Indians running like devils." Varnum and the scouts were referring to this smaller, running village, not the much larger,standing village whose exact whereabouts were still unknown to Custer.(See Gray p271-275)
What this new information did succeed in doing was convince Custer that his worst fears had come about. These Indians were "on the jump" and, would warn the village 7 miles off. So, apparently, Custer's worst fear,the dreaded "Scatteration" was about to occur. I believe you to be correct when you say that Benteen's intelligence was immaterial at this point in time. Once Custer was convinced that his Indians were getting away there was no stopping him.
What may be considered material to some is that Benteen's additional firepower may have allowed Custer to extricate his men before they were annihilated. I just don't know.
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Edited by - joe wiggs on July 24 2008 4:21:12 PM |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
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Posted - July 24 2008 : 4:19:35 PM
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Brent, I am sure you are right in what you say. I have said before
I am not all that keen on Benteen in some of actions, I guess what
really gets to you is why. I have also been puzzled by one fact that
Benteen said in his statement to "Brininstool". He said that when he
received the message from Martin, "I am convinced that the order
brought to me by Martin reached me, Gen. Custer and his whole command
where dead". The question is why did he think that, and was that an
excuse for dragging his feet?. He was given the oder by Custer which
surely would indicate that he wasn't dead. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 24 2008 : 5:12:57 PM
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When Benteen, well after the fact, reflected upon everything he came to the conclusion that Custer had been dead when Martin gave him the message. He did not think that at the time he was handed the note, and had no reason to think so.
There's no change in his story. There's nothing odd or devious about it. Between the battle and the RCOI, where Benteen said the same thing, his opinion changed according to logic. And he's probably correct. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
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Posted - July 24 2008 : 6:15:15 PM
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DC, I have no doubt about what you are saying and you are more then
likely right. I don't feel that Benteen was being devious, to me it
just seemed to be an odd statement to make. |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 25 2008 : 07:00:34 AM
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| Joe: Benteens additional firepower certainly could have been better used than it was--which is to say, not at all (until it was too late to do Custer any good). |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 25 2008 : 10:38:26 AM
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Saving General Custer was neither the mission nor condusive to it. Saving General Custer wasn't considered necessary, either, because he ought to have been able to save his unit in some cohesion. And, they assumed that he'd been deflected and driven off. Altogether reasonable.
They had no reason to further divide the troopers which in aggregate were insufficient for the mission without much luck. If devotion was not attending the train's preservation so near a huge village, they were all toast. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 25 2008 : 11:06:02 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sgtmajor109th
Brent, I am sure you are right in what you say. I have said before
I am not all that keen on Benteen in some of actions, I guess what
really gets to you is why. I have also been puzzled by one fact that
Benteen said in his statement to "Brininstool". He said that when he
received the message from Martin, "I am convinced that the order
brought to me by Martin reached me, Gen. Custer and his whole command
where dead". The question is why did he think that, and was that an
excuse for dragging his feet?. He was given the oder by Custer which
surely would indicate that he wasn't dead.
At this moment in time I feel that I am culpable for bashing Benteen beyond reason. I truly do not mean to do so. One can only imagine the hell he and the others went through during and after the battle. Pain, anguish, resentment, and regrets, I am sure, followed him to his grave.
Having said this, the only action that history should hold him accountable for is his undeniable false testimony at the Reno Inquiry. This testimony,taken under sworn oath, has saddled an already enigmatic,historical event with needless additional obscurity.
As has been pointed out, Benteen was convinced that Custer and his command had been dead when Martini handed him the note. How then does one rationale the fact that when Benteen arrived at Weir Peaks he climbed to the top of the left hill and jammed his troop guidon into the ground? Was it a signal to the Indians or a beacon to military survivors?
Benteen Testimony describing why he planted the guidon:
"I thought the command was still alive." [he had already testified that Custer's men were all dead, 1 1/2 hours earlier.]Gray, p323
It is certain that an individual whose character was as complex as Benteen be afforded every opportunity for understanding. At the same time, it is equally important to address the facts of this battle as well. After all, there are so few of them. |
Edited by - joe wiggs on July 25 2008 11:16:17 AM |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 25 2008 : 2:26:10 PM
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| DC: I should have been a bit more clear. Benteens firepower could have been better used at the beginning..maybe with Reno, maybe with Custer then. Or maybe some other way. As it was his three companies may as well have been in New York City, for all the good they did early on. |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 25 2008 : 8:31:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Brent
Just re-reading Gray and came across an interesting Benteen "aside" that I hadn't noticed before. According to Gray (P.325)when Benteen decided to turn back from Weir Peak (after reluctantly following Weir there!), he did so with just his own command, without any warning or instructions to the other 3 companies.
And I still feel Benteen knew that his little mission was intended to be a brief one, knew early on there were no Indians to be seen, and he should have informed Custer of that fact. He could have and should have returned to "rejoin the command" much earlier (and probably faster) than he did. And deep down, I really think he knew that!!
I agree Brent! Benteen did withdraw from Weir's Point without advising the others. having decided that the peak was not defensible, and met Reno (coming up from about 1/2 mile away) for a conference regarding retuning to Reno Hill. The problem is that he forgot to tell the other three companies.
The incident was covered up by hare at the inquiry. Godfrey kind of let the cat out of the bad in in some of his latter correspondence.
Gray ends the whole affair with the following comment:
"The moment Capt. Benteen reached Reno Hill, he underwent a remarkable transformation from a recalcitrant and contemptuous subordinate to a conspicuous and inspiring leader, for it was primarily he who held the command together during the ensuing siege of Reno Hill." |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 26 2008 : 07:29:49 AM
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Could it possibly be that the "remarkable transformation" occured when his own life became in immediate danger??
But at least he was able and competent enough to do it--Reno was by then functionally useless. |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 26 2008 : 11:26:22 AM
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When you sit right down and think about it, the approach of death ,especially a real frightening one, could snap a knot in your rear! Until Benteen took over at Reno Hill he seemed to following Reno's lead regardless of how impotent it was.
According to Donovan - "A Terrible Glory", McDougall approached Benteen and specifically asked Benteen to "take a lead in affairs". From that point on Reno took command. Maybe McDougall's request snapped him out of his doldrums. |
Edited by - joe wiggs on July 26 2008 11:28:44 AM |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 29 2008 : 2:38:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joe wiggs
SgtMajor,
I'm not certain if Varnum had the information that Custer needed. Let me explain why. A little before two O'clock, about ten miles above the divide (South Fork&Reno Creek), Herendeen, Hare, and Varnum came across an abandoned campsite that stretched for about a half mile along the north side of the creek, at the end of which was the "Lone Tepee." From a nearby high,bluff these men saw Indians running away. It was at this time that Varnum relayed this news to Custer (as his command arrived shortly thereafter) that the Indians were in the valley some 5 beeline miles distant and apparently running awaythat Custer was seeking. It did prompt Custer to order Reno to "lead out at a trot" in pursuit of the smaller,fleeing village. There was no reason whatever to order a charge command at that point
quote:
I find this very interesting, but I Have not found anything that suggest that
anything like that had taken place. First according to Lt. Varnum he was absent
from the command all the time, he was not present when Custer had Lt Cooke
give orders to Reno and Benteen, and did not see either Custer or Reno until
Reno separated from Custer heading to the ford. He also said this in his test-
imony at the COI. He did not see Hare till Reno passed, and then learned that
Hare was detailed to assist him.
Hare also said at the COI that he was with Custer on his movement down the
trail. He then states he seen about 50 Indians on a bluff and told Custer
what he had seen. Varnum did say in that while on the Crow's nest that he
could see two tepees on the branch of Reno,s creek. Now to me this is more
LBH mythology. Now what you have to consider is are both of these officers
lying, I don't think so. From the time Varnum left Custer till he had joined
Reno he did not see Lt.Hare. The last that Varnum at been near the troops
was the 24th, he been out in the hills and had travel about twenty miles.
As I have said, I beleive this to be more LBH mythology.
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mcaryf
Private
United Kingdom
Status: offline |
Posted - August 03 2008 : 07:06:17 AM
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I have noticed in this thread the repeated assertion that nobody but Benteen heard the orders he was given. This is not correct at least with respect to the initial orders. Both Edgerly and Windolph claimed to have been near Benteen and to have heard the orders. The two follow up orders via messengers subsequently sent by Custer may not have been heard but it seems that these merely clarified the ridges and valleys to cross rather than the original spirit.
In correspondence with WS Camp two years after writing the letter to Godfrey, Lt Gibson admitted that he now thought he could not have seen into the LBH valley and possibly looked up South Reno Creek instead. If you look at the terrain there is no spot from which Gibson could have obtained substantial views up the LBH Valley including the river as viewpoints looking to the South are blocked by ridges.
When Benteen testified at the RCOI he followed on after Martini. Martini had testified that he had taken of the order of 45 minutes to travel from Custer to Benteen (this was probably an over estimate but it is what he said). He had also, according to what he said he told Benteen, seen Custer's force engaged (most probably skirmishing in MTC).
Benteen's own assessment from the body locations was that the Custer fight did not last much more than 45 minutes. Thus there is some logic to Benteen's suggestion that Custer was already dead by the time he met Martini.
Nowadays we are pretty sure that Custer's command was not all dead by that time (although of course Custer himself could have been killed). However, Benteen certainly identified an area of some mystery because if Custer was not dead what was he doing for all the time that Martini took and then Benteen took to get to Reno Hill.
I guess this particular mysterious can of worms was one that the RCOI Recorder Jesse Lee chose not to investigate. I do not know whether Benteen really beleived at the time of the RCOI that Custer was already dead when he received Martini's message, but by making the remark he did he effectively stopped a number of possible areas of debate.
Regards
Mike |
Edited by - mcaryf on August 03 2008 07:08:55 AM |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 03 2008 : 11:40:55 AM
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Mike, your question about Custer is a good one. I will check Mike,
but I beleive I have read that there was a gap in time of about 35
or 45 minutes that can't be account for Custer's movement. I am not
sure, but I think it was in one of WC books. But your point is well
taken. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 03 2008 : 12:08:23 PM
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I don't recall Martini saying at the RCOI he knew Custer was engaged. It's important not to conflate various details given over a span of decades as if it's one coherent story. Martini's tale changed significantly from the RCOI over the decades with declining coherence, probability, and newly layered on importance (32 years later, he remembered he'd met Boston and reconfigured the story about who told him his horse was wounded from Benteen to Boston.)
Given his horse had been shot, whoever noticed it, the 45 minutes plus or minus isn't improbable, at least.
Nobody who served with him ever suggested Benteen was a coward that flinched from danger. Gibson's tirades and change of story came after he'd not received support from Benteen for promotions. Benteen, if he were trying to cover up, would have lavished praise on his fellows if he were that sort of person.
He was not that sort of person, and even so, nobody who knew him would accuse him of cowardice. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 03 2008 : 12:56:15 PM
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Mike, the crux of the problems with whether Benteen received or did not receive orders and, who was with him or not with him if he did rests with Benteen himself. His testimony was loaded with inconsistencies and untruths. For example:
"If there had been a plan of battle, enough of that plan would have been communicated to me so that I would have known what to do under certain circumstances. Not having done that, I do not believe there was a plan."
As you stated, both Eagerly and Windolph were with him when he received orders.
Benteen:
"From my orders I might have gone on 20 miles without finding a valley."
He makes this statement despite his written letter to his wife, earlier, that he was to find the Little Big Horn Valley. This assignment was confirmed by a second letter by Gibson.
Gibson's admission does not detract from his standing order. He knew which valley to look for even if he made the mistake of looking up the wrong one. So did Benteen.
According to Gray's time-line, Martini left Custer at 3:34 and arrived at Benteen's position at 3:58 (p339) a total of 24 minutes.
When Benteen referred to the battle lasting approximately 45 minutes he may have been correct. During his testimony he stated, "but at the same time, I believe that General Custer and his whole command were dead. I mean before that order reached me."
The previous day, Benteen testified that he believed Custer was alive when he planted the guidon on the high peak. (p373-A Terrible Glory)
Either Benteen believed Custer was alive or he was dead. Which testimony was the truth?
More importantly, what was Benteen and Reno trying to cover up?
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Edited by - joe wiggs on August 03 2008 1:00:53 PM |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 03 2008 : 1:33:48 PM
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When it comes to Martin, I agree with DC, over the years Martin stories
kept changing. Mike, I am still looking for that time information. But
in Michno's "Lakota Noon" I had bookmarked some pages, check page 108
and page 109 if you have the book. |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 03 2008 : 4:39:28 PM
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| Yes, I agree with D.C. also regarding Martin. I also agree with his statement regarding Benteen . He may have been some other things but, no way was he a coward. Custer must have know this also. |
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mcaryf
Private
United Kingdom
Status: offline |
Posted - August 04 2008 : 09:24:30 AM
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Hi Joe
I do not think there is any doubt that Benteen was sent to the valley of the LBH but there may be some disagreement as to whether he was intended to enter it. My own view is that Custer did intend Benteen's force to enter the valley regardless and advance up it. Others may argue that he was only meant to enter it if he saw NAs escaping up it. Even in this last case of course there was the possibility that Benteen would have had to enter the valley rather than simply observe it.
The valley is actually around 12 miles to the SW from the point where Benteen was despatched, not dissimilar from the distance to the valley following a NW direction. The difference being that there was a good route down Reno Creek to the NW but difficult/impossible country on any SW route. Benteen's estimate that he might have gone 20 miles by that route was in fact an over-estimate but at the time he testified there were no good maps so he would not have known the actual layout. My theory published on the Web and in papers for the Custer Association of Great Britain is that Custer misinterpreted the course of the LBH based on what he saw from the Crows Nest and thought it was closer to the SW than it actually was and that was why he sent Benteen that way.
Gray’s timeline has a number of critical errors in it not least the absolute time of day. However, his journey time for Martini is probably more accurate than Martini’s own testimony which was as I stated 45 minutes. Plainly Benteen did not have our additional knowledge of Martini’s probable transit time and during the previous day he would have heard Martini give a number of estimates of which 45 minutes was the shortest.
In talking about Benteen planting the guidon on Weir peaks both you and Jim Donovan are confusing what Benteen thought on June 25th with what he thought at the time of the RCOI which could quite reasonably be different. His actual testimony was to the effect that he had thought Custer and his command were still alive when he placed the guidon on June 25th.
Hi DC
Martini did not testify at the RCOI that Custer was engaged but he did say that he told Benteen that he thought Custer would have already charged through the village by that time. In later dialogue with WS Camp he related the conversation with Benteen that included Martini saying that Custer was engaged. It is hard to believe that Benteen would not have asked Martini whether the General was engaged or not and even if had only said that Custer should have already charged that would indicate Custer’s fight would have started.
Hi sgtmjr109th
I do have Lakota Noon and you are correct in saying that he has some discussion there of the missing 30+ minutes. I would prefer to use my own opinion of the absolute time of day rather than John Gray’s. My broad timeline for Martini is as follows – despatched by Custer from some point descending towards MTC at about 1.50pm, meets Boston Custer near Sharpshooters at about 2.05pm (De Rudio mistakes this pair for Custer and Cooke), reaches Benteen at about 2.20pm.
In this scenario Reno’s flight from the timber would have taken place at about 2.10pm and his meeting with Benteen on Reno Hill would be about 2.30pm.
Custer’s first skirmishing in MTC could have started at or soon after 2pm – Girard first heard shots about 2.25pm but he would have been hearing the warriors cleaning up Reno’s remnants until then. The volleys heard from Reno Hill at about 14.35pm were in my opinion quite possibly some of Custer’s command giving covering fire for the arrival of Boston Custer.
In my analysis the Custer fight probably lasted around an hour and would have been over apart from mopping up before Weir and Edgerly reached their viewpoints at about 15.15.
Thus I do not think there was any mysterious delay in Custer starting to fight. The gunfire was just not heard until later by the surviving witnesses.
Regards
Mike
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 04 2008 : 1:11:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mcaryf
Hi Joe
I do not think there is any doubt that Benteen was sent to the valley of the LBH but there may be some disagreement as to whether he was intended to enter it. My own view is that Custer did intend Benteen's force to enter the valley regardless and advance up it. Others may argue that he was only meant to enter it if he saw NAs escaping up it. Even in this last case of course there was the possibility that Benteen would have had to enter the valley rather than simply observe it.
Joe
Hi Mike, I agree with you! I too believe that Benteen's assignment was to advance up the valley. Doing so in a timely manner would have placed him in near concert with Reno (Reno's left)for a combined thrust of 6 companies.
Mike
The valley is actually around 12 miles to the SW from the point where Benteen was dispatched, not dissimilar from the distance to the valley following a NW direction. The difference being that there was a good route down Reno Creek to the NW but difficult/impossible country on any SW route. Benteen's estimate that he might have gone 20 miles by that route was in fact an over-estimate but at the time he testified there were no good maps so he would not have known the actual layout. My theory published on the Web and in papers for the Custer Association of Great Britain is that Custer misinterpreted the course of the LBH based on what he saw from the Crows Nest and thought it was closer to the SW than it actually was and that was why he sent Benteen that way.
Joe
you could be absolutely correct as your assumption is rational and competent. Personally, I believe Benteen simply exaggerated facts (such as distances) to incur the false premise that Custer sent him on a foolish quest that was impossible to complete. Doing so absolves him of any responsibility.
Mike
Gray’s timeline has a number of critical errors in it not least the absolute time of day. However, his journey time for Martini is probably more accurate than Martini’s own testimony which was as I stated 45 minutes. Plainly Benteen did not have our additional knowledge of Martini’s probable transit time and during the previous day he would have heard Martini give a number of estimates of which 45 minutes was the shortest.
Joe
Once again I agree that Benteen did not have our hind-sight to assist him. However, he himself testified that he had a very fast horse that could cover 5 miles in an hour at a trot. Martin's journey commenced at Cedar Coulée and culminated with Benteen approximately (I believe)2 miles distance.
Mike
In talking about Benteen planting the guidon on Weir peaks both you and Jim Donovan are confusing what Benteen thought on June 25th with what he thought at the time of the RCOI which could quite reasonably be different. His actual testimony was to the effect that he had thought Custer and his command were still alive when he placed the guidon on June 25th.
Joe
At least I'm in pretty good company. Gray came to the same conclusion:
Testimony, pp.329-30, Some officers say the battlefield was in sight, but I knew positively that it was not[sic]. I saw no evidence, nor did I hear any firing...I thought the command was still alive. [He had already testified that Custer's men were all dead, 1 1/2 hours earlier.]
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Edited by - joe wiggs on August 04 2008 1:19:04 PM |
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Responsibility for Custer's defeat.
