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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
 Posted - July 18 2007 : 7:44:15 PM
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I imagine that a few members of the AAO's forum would view me as being partial towards the disposition that Custer was infallible and could do no wrong. They would be incorrect. My spin on this battle has always been and always will be that no single entity can be responsible for the outcome of the Battle of the Little Big Horn.
Furthermore, I am puzzled by the tendency to view the Big Horn Battle as a massacre yet, the battle of the Wa****a is considered just that, a battle. What is the definitive act(s), fact(s), and/or
moral justification that makes one incident different from the other?
Lastly, is there a rational difference between the two that can be endorsed with some credibility or are they both the same, horrific examples of Man's Inhumanity to Man, just viewed differently? What do you think?
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 29 2007 : 10:30:59 AM
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Massacre--"The act of killing unresisting or helpless human beings under circumstances of atrocity or cruelty".
So sayeth the New Collegiate Dictionary.
I don't think Custers battle wasn't any such thing--he was whipped in a fair fight which HE started. I think most folks apply the term "massacre" since everyone in his immediate command was killed. A certain # of soldiers may have been "unresisting and helpless" but only after they had been wounded and incapacitated. |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 29 2007 : 5:04:15 PM
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| Brent, your logic is impeccable! I think some of us equate the "massacre" terminology with a battle between one army better equipped or more numerous in manpower battling a much smaller, ill-equipped one. I now I did. By definition, I was certainly wrong. |
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frankboddn
Major
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 11 2007 : 12:21:12 AM
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Joseph, I think Brent hit the nail on the head. The 7th obviously wasn't defenseless, nor were the Cheyenne on the Wa****a, although they were certainly caught by surprise, and there is a lot of argument about whether they were a peaceful village with a couple of hotheads that Black Kettle just couldn't handle.
Same for Fetterman. It's known as the Fetterman massacre, although it was, in fact, a battle. Problem was for Fetterman, it was around 80 vs. 1500+. It was still a battle, but whites like to call it a massacre because no one survived. Much the same for the Grattan massacre.
If you want a real massacre, besides maybe Sand Creek, take a look at this month's Wild West magazine. There is a good article about the Mountain Meadows Massacre in southern Utah where the Mormans and maybe a couple Indians massacred about 140 men, womenand children, with the women and children outnumbering the able-bodied men 2-1. If you haven't heard about this true massacre, go to your local Barnes and Nobel and read the October 2007 issue. Okay, I subscribe, so get it early, but it is the October 2007 issue. It is written by someone who is obviously anti-Brigham Young and Morman, but I think with good reason if you study the history. Anyway, it's an excellent article and the epitomy of the word "massacre." |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 11 2007 : 9:05:57 PM
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Absolutely the the essence of truth!!! The Mormon " massacre" in Utah epitomizes the meaning of the word. yes, i have read about it and the circumstances disgust me to this day. Only one individual ( I forget his name) ultimately paid the price for this disgraceful incident.
I will look up the October article. Thank you for the "heads-up" regarding the true definition of "massacre.' |
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frankboddn
Major
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 12 2007 : 12:20:56 AM
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| And while on the subject of massacres, the battle of Coleta Creek near Goliad, Tx. was, in fact, a battle. What happened afterwards was truly a massacre. Fannin surrendered his 350 or so men to the Mexicans with the understanding they would be paroled to go home and not fight again. They were marched to the nearby Mission de la Bahia, or something like that, where, on Santa Anna's orders, they were marched out from the mission in three different directions, three different columns, and then the slaughter began. I think around 12 got away. As for Fannin himself, he was taken to a small courtyard in front of the mission where he was shot in the face. There's a good account of the battle and massacre, along with some pictures I took in April, of Coleta, the mission and the mass grave, as well as Texas in all her spring flowers glory. |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 12 2007 : 07:41:10 AM
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Now that was a massacre..as was Mountain Meadows.
Yet we read in the same vein of the Boston "massacre"..
How about the Paoli "Massacre", when Wayne's men were caught sleeping??? |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 12 2007 : 7:24:09 PM
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I'm stunned How could i have forgotten Goliad. These men were weaponless and under the impression that their surrender would be honored when they were ruthlessly slaughtered. Frankboddn, could we see your photographs? That would be great.
Brent, i confess that I am not familiar with the "Paoli" massacre. Could you share this information with us?
Thanking you both in advance. |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 13 2007 : 06:08:29 AM
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During the revolution '"Mad Anthony" Wayne was in command of some soldiers (in Pa. as I recall) who were suprised and caught sleeping in their blankets by the British. A thoroughly one sided affair, and I think even soldiers trying to surrender were bayonetted.
Of course, this was a wartime situation and these men were soldiers and not women and children.. |
Edited by - Brent on August 13 2007 06:10:58 AM |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 14 2007 : 7:33:36 PM
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| I can not help but wonder what goes through the mind of any man who would slay another man who is helpless and pleading for his life. When we commit a despicable act, such as this, we kill a bit of our own humanity. |
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frankboddn
Major
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 14 2007 : 10:08:15 PM
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Joe, I posted about five pictures of the field at Coleto(a?) Creek where the battle was fought as well as the mission where they were marched to and murdered, as well as their mass grave. Look at the different topics and you should be able to find them. If not, I'll be happy to post them again.
Frank
quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
I'm stunned How could i have forgotten Goliad. These men were weaponless and under the impression that their surrender would be honored when they were ruthlessly slaughtered. Frankboddn, could we see your photographs? That would be great.
Brent, i confess that I am not familiar with the "Paoli" massacre. Could you share this information with us?
Thanking you both in advance.
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 15 2007 : 8:21:19 PM
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Franlk,
Words are not adequate for describing the gift you have given me. The photos are magnificent. They do so much to help me visualize the reality of the events as they actually occurred. To see the actual landscape of this dastardly event is almost overwhelming. Thank you Sir.
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frankboddn
Major
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 16 2007 : 5:12:40 PM
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By the way, Joe, did you know there is a new movie due out soon with Jon Voight about the Mountain Meadow Massacre? It's amazing how 100+ years have gone by and the descendents of the murderers and victims' families are still arguing about the event. The Mormons seem to be doing everything they can to mitigate their role or culpability. I guess the same can be said about those who think Custer was just doing his job and those who see him as an Indian-hating war monger. Anyway, I'm looking forward to the new movie. Here's something about the movie:http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release.do?id=760175
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 17 2007 : 05:30:16 AM
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| This should be interesting. Voight is a pretty good actor as well!! |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 17 2007 : 9:40:13 PM
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| This is one movie I will be certain to see. I can understand the Mormon need to downplay this event. Thanks for the additional info! |
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frankboddn
Major
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 17 2007 : 10:54:21 PM
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| Joe and Brent, it's been about 170 years or so, and I'd think much more of the Mormons if this generation would just come clean and admit that their ancestors were wrong, they blew it, apologize for their actions and get on with it. It's kind of like the modern-day Japanese who won't admit to their atrocities. The Japanese were the cruelest society on earth since the Romans. At least the Germans had the guts to admit to their atrocities in WWII. |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 18 2007 : 7:18:30 PM
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Speaking of coming clean, I found an interesting article in a book titled, "Weird History 101" which points out bits of information unknown to the average person. The facts are true just submerged or hidden for political reasons and/or embarrassment.
For example the following:
"In 1812 reverend Solomon Spaulding, a Presbyterian minister and Dartmouth graduate, was inspired by an archaeological excavation in Ohio to write a historical novel about the discovery of some ancient plates that told of how the lost tribes of Israel ended up in ancient America.
Before he died, Reverend Spaulding left copies of the manuscript with his wife and a Pittsburgh bookseller. Then in 1825, while Joseph Smith was working as a well digger for the next-door neighbor of Spaulding's wife, her copy of the manuscript disappeared.
After reading the Book of Mormon, she accused Joseph Smith of plagiarism and at least eight of Spaulding's relatives and neighbors gave affidavits and statements to that affect."
Makes for mighty interesting reading doesn't it? |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on August 18 2007 7:20:44 PM |
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frankboddn
Major
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 21 2007 : 11:44:51 AM
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| Gentlemen, I saw on TV today that the movie "September Dawn" about the Mountain Meadow Massacre begins this Friday. That's one I want to see on the big screen. |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 21 2007 : 7:58:19 PM
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| Thanks for the tip Frank, I'll certainly be on the lookout for this one. |
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frankboddn
Major
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 12 2007 : 11:18:38 PM
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Joe and Brent, I guess the movie "September Dawn" has been out for awhile now, and the verdict isn't good. Sounds like it might go straight to video (or DVD). I've heard there's a lot of fire and brimstone speeches by Jon Voight, and the movie just hasn't been received well. I'll wait for the DVD, too.
On another note, I did read in today's paper that today is the anniversary of the massacre--or maybe it was yesterday--and at the ceremony, which was attended by hundreds, a high ranking person in the Morman church gave what was tantamount to an apology to the descendents of the murdered, saying it was basically brought about by the elders of the Mormans from Cedar City and not coming from "the top" in Salt Lake City.
He also apologized to the Indian tribe--the Utes maybe--who they tried to pin the massacre on. I've read accounts that the white men or some of the dressed like Indians, and there were very few real Indians who took part in the killings.
The descendents were very happy to see the church finally taking the blame, even if the words "We apologize" weren't used, it was an apology, something the church has never done or acknowledged in the past 150 or so years. |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 13 2007 : 05:36:56 AM
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| Nice to hear this-- |
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frankboddn
Major
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 18 2007 : 8:37:43 PM
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| Brent, or maybe not nice to hear it. i hate it when they take historical events and really screw them up or Hollywoodize them. I still haven't seen it, but I'd have like to have seen a good historical version. Oh, well. |
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scalped
Recruit
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 04 2007 : 11:08:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by frankboddn
Joe and Brent, it's been about 170 years or so, and I'd think much more of the Mormons if this generation would just come clean and admit that their ancestors were wrong, they blew it, apologize for their actions and get on with it. It's kind of like the modern-day Japanese who won't admit to their atrocities. The Japanese were the cruelest society on earth since the Romans. At least the Germans had the guts to admit to their atrocities in WWII.
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scalped
Recruit
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 04 2007 : 11:14:58 PM
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Sorry meant to include the quote above in this post, only getting used to this forum.
Frankboddn:- The Japenese were the crueliest society on earth .......
I not sure where you are going with this, lets be honest, in war the victors "war crimes" are never discussed but the enemy is demonised. Every side is guilty of atrocities, I am sure the Russians or the Americans or the Brits or any nationality who tortured and killed throughout the war or any war , could give even the crueliest Japanese soldier a run for their money. |
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frankboddn
Major
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 17 2007 : 8:51:05 PM
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Hi, Scalped.
Where I was going with it was the atrocities committed by the Japanese were the cruelest in recorded history. You can read "The Rape of Nanking" or watch documentaries about the Bataan Death March or the way both civilians and soldiers were treated by them. I certainly agree with you that atrocities are committed by everyone. But the Japanese were by far the worst. I hate to get way off subject, but it brings to mind the revisionists' condemnation of Truman using the bomb. I saw a documentary recently on the History Channel about the Japanese contempt for the American and their allies surrendering at Corrigidor or anywhere. Surrender wasn't an option. Yeah, sure, a few did. But look how many Japanese were killed on Iwo Jima and how many walked out of it alive. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that if people like my father or other fathers of that age had had to take the Japanese mainland by force, the American--and Japanese for that matter--deaths would have been astronomical. I apologize for getting so far off subject, but when it comes to the Japanese cruelty, there's no justification.
quote:
Originally posted by scalped
Sorry meant to include the quote above in this post, only getting used to this forum.
Frankboddn:- The Japenese were the crueliest society on earth .......
I not sure where you are going with this, lets be honest, in war the victors "war crimes" are never discussed but the enemy is demonised. Every side is guilty of atrocities, I am sure the Russians or the Americans or the Brits or any nationality who tortured and killed throughout the war or any war , could give even the crueliest Japanese soldier a run for their money.
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 23 2007 : 09:30:31 AM
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I tend to think atrocities committed by individuals are a bit different than atrocities comimtted as part of a national culture. Suggested reading "The Rising Sun--the Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire" by John Toland. In there it suggests that the Japanese were really not truly conscious of their atrocities on Bataan because they had general contempt for prisoners and that's how prisoners were generally treated. In fact, the average Japanese thought that if he surrenderd to the Americans, he would be tortured or killed. Because that's exactly what they would do to their prisoners.
The dropping of the Atomic Bomb saved millions of lives--Japanese lives. Can you imagine how many more Japanese would have died had the war carried on for a year or two? With an invasion? Or even without--there were some military folks who felt that just "normal" fire bombings plus naval shelling, plus a submarine stranglehold on Japan would have eventually won the war. ALL of Japan (not just two cities) would have been a wasteland.
And don't forget the Russians. Had the war continued they would have made mincemeat of any Japanese troops left on the Asian mainland--none of those men would have ever nmade it back to Japan. And the Russians also had designs on certain parts of Japan itself--. |
Edited by - Brent on October 23 2007 09:35:46 AM |
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Massacre or Battle
