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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
 Posted - January 10 2006 : 1:52:52 PM
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If Custer was going for the Civvies, he'd go all out for the civvies,
This is a no brainer DC.200 Going after 4000 civvies while 1500 loving daddies looked on? And of course the 4000 civvies would have congregated in a docile terrified convient group.Listen the only non combats in that village were nursing mothers,the rest were apprentice warriors or veterans all of whom could give a master class in battlefield surgery.
One of the great myths which we have perpetuated here is the great "Custer's battalions were out of supporting range of each other".This does not stand up to examination.Custer was never more than one mile from Reno.He sees him in skirmish line from the vicinity of Weir point.Knows he had promised him support but he takes a cold blooded decision to disreguard Reno's predicament and continues on down Cedar Coulee not only away from Reno but also from Benteen This makes no military sense whatsoever.
Now add to the above decision the one he made further back to follow the Indian trail against Terry's advice.Leaving aside this advice this is still a tactically bad decision and makes no sense.[in spite of Gray's feeble attempt to justify it.]
And now for his the piece de Resistance,his decision to bypass MTC Ford.I have tried to put together all the military circumstances to justify this action but perhaps it was not militarily motivated.It is now accepted that Scott on his return journey from his failed venture at the South Poll decided that death was a far better option than facing the British public,his sponsers and his King.When the opportunity arrived to stop struggling he accepted it gratefully.His loyal comrades likewise.Perhaps Custer was no different,saw the inevitable failure and disgrace and likewise simply gave up.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 10 2006 : 2:50:29 PM
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I'm not arguing the point, but you're pulling numbers out of the air.
Custer was never closer to Reno than a mile after Reno hit the pavement in battle, and by the time he was at MTC and Reno was retreating, they were two miles apart, and of course ended up four miles apart. Also? As the fixated raven flies is not particularly helpful. Custer'd have to backtrack to Ford A rather than risk a descent on a steep incline and form a practice gallery for the Sioux.
Nobody has more than a theory that Scott wanted to die rather than come in second. I thought Scott and all that romatic truck needed to be taken down a peg and The Last Place on Earth did that in spades, but there's no possible evidence for Scott having a death wish absent that particular author. It's wildly contested, in fact. Typical. If he can't be the Cid, he must be the Devil.
Please start a new thread if you're going off on this, though. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - January 10 2006 : 4:34:28 PM
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Please start a new thread if you're going off on this, though.Sorry officer but what I'm doing is looking at Custer's main decisions.There is a lunacy running through them which is consistant with the crazy final position of his command as depicted by the markers.Nothing that man did made sense.
Custer was never closer to Reno than a mile after Reno hit the pavement in battle,
6 minutes away.
Custer'd have to backtrack to Ford A rather than risk a descent on a steep incline and form a practice gallery for the Sioux.Retreat ford would have done fine but just a demonstration on the bluffs and some long range firing would have covered a retreat of Reno through the timber
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 10 2006 : 6:09:39 PM
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Okay, but if you're doing Scott, new thread.
By the time Reno was under fire, in battle at the Gary Owen loop's western arc, Custer was far more than six minutes away. You're looking at straight lines of traverse by dutiful crows that do not exist in reality. There were, however, Sioux on the east bank, and that would have been helpful to remove them.
No, descending down by the retreat ford would have been awful, and 'long range' fire by the 7th is not likely to have been noticed. The retreat out of the timber featured Sioux in soldier's laps, so I don't know what would have happened. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on January 10 2006 6:10:09 PM |
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Smcf
Captain
Status: offline |
Posted - January 11 2006 : 04:38:07 AM
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Many thanks for the link Mr Markland - I'll have to think about this on-line shopping.
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - January 11 2006 : 09:43:30 AM
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The main focus of our examination of the markers has been to discern possible skirmish lines among the wreckage as if the skirmish line could have been the command's salvation.
The skirmish line is exactly that.A formation the purpose of which is to announce one's presence to the opposition or to bid them farewell.Skirmishing is no more that a precursor to a more serious confrontation.It is the least confrontational formation in the military's repertoire.It is not to be reccommended as a defence against massacreists.
One of the best [and possible the last]examples of the cavalry skirmish line in action was Durnford's fighting retreat with the Edendale and Zikhali Horse at Isandlwana.
There have been hundreds of posts argueing the pros and cons of the Springfield carbine. Compaired to the lack of any defensive drill or system to counter a scenario such as the LBH [with all due respects to the posters]they are irrelevant.Just compair the loss of firepower due to troopers holding horses to that resulting from jams.If the command had lost 25% of its firepower due to jams we could suggest that the carbine was to blame for the disaster.
The markers suggest that some of the troops when attacked carried out the drill required for the skirmish line which was totally inadequate for what they were about to recieve.The markers don't indicate any sort of attempt to rally together.Removing spurious markers result in Custer's and Keogh's positions resembling nothing more than the Skirmish line collasping in on itself. |
Edited by - wILD I on January 11 2006 09:58:03 AM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 11 2006 : 12:06:20 PM
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| After viewing the markers in some of the pictures it resembles a race to me to LSH. It is strung out like a marathon. If you lose the race you died quicker or suffered longer before being killed. The feeling is quit disturbing. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 11 2006 : 12:09:38 PM
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quote:
There have been hundreds of posts arguing the pros and cons of the Springfield carbine. Compaired to the lack of any defensive drill or system to counter a scenario such as the LBH [with all due respects to the posters]they are irrelevant.Just compair the loss of firepower due to troopers holding horses to that resulting from jams.If the command had lost 25% of its firepower due to jams we could suggest that the carbine was to blame for the disaster.
Wild- agreed -Some of us just like to do irrelevant things for recreation. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 06 2006 : 11:33:48 PM
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Although it could be true. Doesn't say it came from the battle, now, does it? Just cases found on the field, who knows where they came from. Or when.
Unlikely, of course, from every point of view, but........ |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 07 2006 : 09:03:07 AM
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"Although it could be true. Doesn't say it came from the battle, now, does it? Just cases found on the field, who knows where they came from. Or when.
Unlikely, of course, from every point of view, but........" It could have been saddle parts or other accroutrements maybe even 50-70 cartridges or Henry's just goes to show that doing archaeological studies in a heavily scavenged area may produce results other than what really happened on June 25th 1876. Even a General claims to have picked up a few souvenirs. I understand the theory of the lead not being as valuable a treasure as brass but a bullet(s) fired into a dead or dying trooper while standing over him isn't the same as lead from a distant location. Yet when discovered years later, it would be hard to distinguish from where it was fired. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 08 2006 : 10:14:43 AM
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Because kicking the biodegrading equine is fun, hasn't it previously been posted that the Springfields had NO brass cases for the battle, and that this was a change made after because of "defective" cases then used that supposedly jammed a few carbines? So if a small cannon could be made from brass casings found on the battlefield.......
Haw! |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 09 2006 : 3:36:33 PM
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" Because kicking the biodegrading equine is fun, hasn't it previously been posted that the Springfields had NO brass cases for the battle, and that this was a change made after because of "defective" cases then used that supposedly jammed a few carbines? So if a small cannon could be made from brass casings found on the battlefield.......
Haw!"
I think the .50-70 like Custer carried were brass cases. Someone will use the cannon to prove a last stand theory. Maybe the Colt's were brass. I don't know. That would explain to Vern what happened to the revolver cases. They made a cannon out of them. Or maybe the cannon has more copper than brass. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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Marker Relevance to Battle Scenarios
