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Buddha
Private
Status: offline |
 Posted - March 26 2006 : 2:51:54 PM
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| MRW - I'm not making a cliche'd remark about Custer, at least, not in the sense that I am repeating what someone else has said. From my point of view it's original. It's also one that came to me as I wrote so I'm not prepared to make a more definitive statement about Custer's behavior yet. I'm would like to hear what other's have to say, so tell me why you think Custer had ADHD. ADHD doesn't include lying and delusions of grandeur as symptoms, I don't think. I see Custer's determined thought process when he as trying to find Libby in Kansas, and when he was following the Indians to the LBH to be too dedicated to be ADHD. On the other hand, I'm not all that familiar with adult ADHD, so what are the symptoms and how does Custer fit? |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 26 2006 : 3:52:08 PM
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AZ
The military by the nature of its occupation takes risks.To diviate from an agreed plan without the knowledge of the other parties to the plan is not a risk it is betrayal. There was no agreed plan just a concept with a preference.
How much further do you believe the headwaters of the Tongue in the Bighorn Mountains is if you continue up the Rosebud?
It was left to Custer's discretion how far South he proceeded.[Read the order] Custer believed he traveled far enough south and therfore followed the order.
The camps of Terry's command were scattered with a several miles separation of some of them. The Gatling guns and a cavalry troop were lost for awhile and the cavalry had moved ahead of the infantry to water their horses.
Custer knew nothing of this and it cannot be used to justify his disobedience.What it shows is that Terry was no knowingly next to the village and ready to support the 7th. It would not be till the 27th and the Indians were a lot further down the LBH the then order anticipated.
Terry believed that the headwaters area of the Tongue and LBH river may have been the the location of the village. If he didn't why suggest in the order to check it out.
He did not.[once again read the orders] "You should proceed southward perhaps as far as the headwaters of the Tongue, and then turn towards the LH" That is about as clear as Terry gets. Either he thought the Indians could be there or he was trying to wear out the horses by sending them on an extra 4 day journey to Wyoming and back so they couldn't charge and would leave Gibbons as the first to contact the Indians.
Without knowing the exact location of the village Custer knew it was closer than the headwaters of the Tongue.
He disobeyed orders without knowing where the village was. It is obvious that a fresh trail has a village at the end of it unless the Indians scatter.
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - March 27 2006 : 07:33:36 AM
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There was no agreed plan just a concept with a preference.The issue is wheather Custer had or had not sufficent reason for departing from Terry's desires.
Custer believed he traveled far enough south and therfore followed the order.
You must supply evidence of this.Terry wanted him to go further South than the turn off.
What it shows is that Terry was no knowingly next to the village and ready to support the 7th. It would not be till the 27th and the Indians were a lot further down the LBH the then order anticipated.
Not evidence to support Custer's actions.
You should proceed southward perhaps as far as the headwaters of the Tongue, and then turn towards the LH" That is about as clear as Terry gets. Either he thought the Indians could be there or he was trying to wear out the horses by sending them on an extra 4 day journey to Wyoming and back so they couldn't charge and would leave Gibbons as the first to contact the Indians.The distance he leaves to Custer but it was to be far enough South in order to enclose the Indians between the two forces.
It is obvious that a fresh trail has a village at the end of it unless the Indians scatter
When he turned off Custer did not know if the village would be North or South or right in front of him.He risked blundering right into the village. |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 27 2006 : 12:24:14 PM
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Buddha--
Collect primary source material about Custer, and I mean other people's notes about his behaviour, moods, and habits. Then take the information and go to any website that deals with ADHD. It's pretty simple to see GAC in those determinating symptom-ologies. And it is possible for a person with ADHD to acheive hyperfocus on specific tasks as well as the more notorious penchants for risk taking activities. I've pitched my theory to the LBHA, and we'll see if they'll actually publish it ...
But when it comes to GAC's character, it is much better to look for nuances rather than psychiatric hammers. Calling Custer crazy seems to be the easy and sexy way out--especially for newbies. He was a human with--certainly--prodigious faults as well as much gentler characteristics, but I don't see anything like a psychosis or anything so dramatic.
Hoka hey! |
movingrobe |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 27 2006 : 11:35:37 PM
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There was no agreed plan just a concept with a preference.The issue is whether Custer had or had not sufficient reason for departing from Terry's desires.Since it was up to Custer he couldn't choose wrong.
Custer believed he traveled far enough south and therefore followed the order.
You must supply evidence of this.Terry wanted him to go further South than the turn off.Terry gave no specific turning point that would be possible to coordinate the two columns without a n exact knowledge of the village location.
What it shows is that Terry was not knowingly next to the village and ready to support the 7th. It would not be till the 27th and the Indians were a lot further down the LBH the then order anticipated.
Not evidence to support Custer's actions. It goes to where Terry anticipated the village to be which is the point. If it were further up the river then going to the Tongue and down the LBH would have made more sense.
You should proceed southward perhaps as far as the headwaters of the Tongue, and then turn towards the LH" That is about as clear as Terry gets. Either he thought the Indians could be there or he was trying to wear out the horses by sending them on an extra 4 day journey to Wyoming and back so they couldn't charge and would leave Gibbons as the first to contact the Indians.The distance he leaves to Custer but it was to be far enough South in order to enclose the Indians between the two forces.
It is obvious that a fresh trail has a village at the end of it unless the Indians scatter
When he turned off Custer did not know if the village would be North or South or right in front of him.He risked blundering right into the village. He knew it was a fresh trail and the scouts said they could determine it from CN. The mission was to run into the Indians and punish them. The failure would be not to find the village again after finding the "fresh" trail and going into Wyoming or worse not be able to support while the Indians attacked Terry. If Custer had continued and followed the furthest route as described in the order he would have been questioned why he passed up the village, knowing he had seen a fresh trail. Terry had to believe either column could handle the Indians or why did he split them. The fact that there was two many Indians that were willing to fight was not known by Terry in advance or he made a huge judgment error. You are trying to hold Custer to a higher standard than Terry.
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - March 28 2006 : 08:21:30 AM
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Since it was up to Custer he couldn't choose wrong.Do you mean morally or militarly?
Terry gave no specific turning point that would be possible to coordinate the two columns without a n exact knowledge of the village location.Custer was required to go further South than the trail.How far was left to him with a limit set at the headwaters of the Tongue.
It goes to where Terry anticipated the village to be which is the point. If it were further up the river then going to the Tongue and down the LBH would have made more sense.
Other than on the LBH Terry had no definite location for the village.
He knew it was a fresh trail
The trail was 9 days old
The failure would be not to find the village again after finding the "fresh" trail and going into Wyoming
Going into Wyoming was not required.All that was required of Custer was that he proceed no more than a days march beyond the turn.
Terry had to believe either column could handle the Indians or why did he split them.
The discussion here is strictly academic because there was a subplot which was to allow Custer to redeem himself with a spectacular victory.Terry's "orders "were no more than a little insurance just in case.
You are trying to hold Custer to a higher standard than Terry.No.This was just the old comrades act of 1865 which went badly wrong.
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Buddha
Private
Status: offline |
Posted - March 28 2006 : 9:52:50 PM
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movingrobewoman -
I didn't call Custer crazy, at least I changed my mind after I initially did. Maybe you missed that. Maybe you thought being a sociopath is being crazy.
I've already checked on the symptoms of ADHD and sociopathy and what I learned in the past hasn't changed. Custer's ability to focus on a task, a lack of concern about others, pathological lying, and social skills show him to be more of a sociopath, although I won't say I can prove that is what he was. ADHD just doesn't fit though. If you have a case for that, tell me, convince me, if you can, old timer.
Considering the surplus of officers in the Army after the Civil War, why was someone who had been found guilty of an offense that compromised his integrity allowed back on active duty? |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - March 29 2006 : 08:25:22 AM
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Buddha
Considering the surplus of officers in the Army after the Civil War, why was someone who had been found guilty of an offense that compromised his integrity allowed back on active duty?
Because weighed in the balance against 5 years war service and because senior officers such as Sheridan owed much to men like Custer who led from the front he deserved to be cut a little slack. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 29 2006 : 08:39:53 AM
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Considering the surplus of officers in the Army after the Civil War, why was someone who had been found guilty of an offense that compromised his integrity allowed back on active duty?
Buddha-- Setting aside Custer's problems and lack of timing in coordination,if you understand the charge as done properly and appropriately then there were very commanding officer's that had more experience or zeal than Custer. Terry turned him loose with his own command and to that degree is responsible.
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 29 2006 : 09:06:03 AM
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Since it was up to Custer he couldn't choose wrong.Do you mean morally or militarly?From the text of the order.
Terry gave no specific turning point that would be possible to coordinate the two columns without a n exact knowledge of the village location.Custer was required to go further South than the trail.How far was left to him with a limit set at the headwaters of the Tongue.The scouts went further south than the trail. Custer probably did also but I don't want to get into the 100 yard Reno foot offensive with carbine discussion.
It goes to where Terry anticipated the village to be which is the point. If it were further up the river then going to the Tongue and down the LBH would have made more sense.
Other than on the LBH Terry had no definite location for the village.
He knew it was a fresh trail
The trail was 9 days old[
Yes that is my point the trail Reno scouted was 9 days old. Custer followed a new fresh trail that lead to the village at LBH.
The failure would be not to find the village again after finding the "fresh" trail and going into Wyoming
Going into Wyoming was not required.All that was required of Custer was that he proceed no more than a days march beyond the turn.Wild you keep implying that there was fixed date in Terry's order that would be used to show Custer got there early. Please show that date. It appears that everyone in hindsight knows the location of the village and Terry's column on the 25th and then tries to imply that Custer got there early. The village other than somewhere on the LBH possibly which is over a 60 mile stretch is at best a guess. It was a good guess but no more than that. If the village was located 25 more miles down the LBH then Terry would be first and Custer if he didn't turn would not be there on time. If he followed the fresh trail then he would be there about the same time as Terry. Without the date in the order or stating don't attack until the infantry is in place Custer could and did make his own choice.
Terry had to believe either column could handle the Indians or why did he split them.
The discussion here is strictly academic because there was a subplot which was to allow Custer to redeem himself with a spectacular victory.Terry's "orders "were no more than a little insurance just in case.Agreed
You are trying to hold Custer to a higher standard than Terry.No.This was just the old comrades act of 1865 which went badly wrong.Good point Wild and if they had bit the bullet and stated that at the time we would at least not been discussing Terry's order which they attempted to defend after the fact. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - September 24 2006 : 6:32:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pathological
In the race between you and Wild to become the new Wiggs, you've panted ahead.
What a wonderful compliment! Thank you although you, obviously, did not intend it as such. Only one question though, your reference to a "new Wiggs" would infer that something occurred to the old Wiggs. Do you know something that I don't? |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on September 24 2006 6:36:29 PM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 26 2006 : 09:53:40 AM
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 19 2007 : 7:54:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
A Last Stand is a proactive act, although in obvious desperation. There is no evidence that those guys ended there by military intent, or intended a defensive battle at any point. Or knew what the hell was happening till the end.
A "Last Stand" need not be a pro-active act, it may be merely a geographical location where one or more individuals met their demise as a result of a battle. How the individual/group arrived at his/her/their final destination is irrelevant. Whatever the cause, they could proceed no further.
Leonidas and his 300 Spartan hoplites met their end during a holding action rather than foolishly attacking a zillion Persians in a "Pro-active act." the military intent of the Spartans was to hold the pass as long as possible.
Nor was the decision to do so a "desperate" one. It was a sound military judgment call until a "pass" to the Spartans rear was revealed.
One does not need "evidence" of a military intent, a pro-active mentality, nor complete military intelligence at the "end" to determine the classification of a "last Stand."
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Edited by - joseph wiggs on July 19 2007 8:06:11 PM |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 29 2007 : 10:19:27 AM
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Back to the original post--
Cowards? No. Many of them scared and who didn't fight well? Certainly.
The rank and file certainly deserved better "officering"... |
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Captain Outwater
Recruit
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 01 2007 : 2:37:34 PM
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Just because things went to hell and fell into confusion does not mean the soldiers were not brave, it just means they were surprised and unable to cope with the sudden onslault.
Panic is a leadership failure, not a personal or personnel problem of cowardace. |
Your humble servant,
Captain John Outwater |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 02 2007 : 7:27:01 PM
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Captain,
Like you, I do not feel that the ultimate end of this battle had anything to do with cowardice. Any, and all, of the soldiers and Indians who engaged in this battle were not cowards. They were men who believed in their destiny. At the end, the realization of immediate, horrific and, brutal death would have unnerved any human being. |
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The new myth
