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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - March 18 2005 : 3:17:25 PM
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| Lemme get this straight: The Tom Custer book uses a fiction work as a source? |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 18 2005 : 3:31:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by El Crab
Lemme get this straight: The Tom Custer book uses a fiction work as a source?
Yeah. The Roy Bird book ("In His Brother's Shadow") does--modern fiction. I've always tended to think that in certain circumstances, fiction from the PERIOD can help to better capture the 'esprit' of the times (this is especially so in 19th Century Russian history)--but Bird relies on novel-ly stuff written in the last twenty years. A lot of people have taken him and his book to the woodshed for that--and deservedly so.
Nor am I implying that Day's book is without errors, but comparing the two, it is clear which author took the more "scholarly" approach.
Regards,
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movingrobe |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - March 19 2005 : 8:17:34 PM
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Being selective in one's reading of source materials is understandable as, unfortunately, there are so many, many sources to peruse. Unless one is totally retired from gainful employment,time is of the essence.
What I don,t get, however, is how on can editorialize and make intelligent comment on something he or she has never read and, would "rather die" than do so. I'm perplexed! |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 20 2005 : 11:32:21 AM
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Don't tax the system, Wiggs. Take out the chewing gum and then try thinking.
Let me give an example that appeals to prevailing prejudices on the forum to show you how easy this is.
If Michael Moore announced he was doing a film on Bush's Social Security reform, and he announced in a press release that he'd be concerned with how it will affect, say, farmers in the Midwest and Tom DeLay, does anyone think they could write a review ahead of time of this film and catch, if not exact phrases, the thrust and the conclusion with any accuracy? Let's not always see the same hands....
Now, if any pedestrian crypto-military wannabe - caught late in life with emotional need to blame unknown "others" for his various forms of disappointments and feeling betrayed that childhood understandings aren't true and could never have been - finds himself with opportunity to write a pamphlet using his attraction to the Custer fiasco as heavy-handed metaphor, and announces the imminent arrival of this work lazily referencing Custer as heroic sacrifice on one hand (with plenty of ungrateful civilians above him and Judas creatures below)and the author on the other (allowing readers to make desired subtle connections), I think anyone on this board could write that review without reading it just as easily and at about the same percentage of accuracy. Which would be high. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 20 2005 : 12:26:16 PM
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"...and feeling betrayed that childhood understandings aren't true and could never have been ..."
Are you making an insinuation against the veracity of the Easter Bunny?
How low will you go in your efforts to destroy all that is good!!! Pretty soon you will come out with that old wife's tale about there being no Santa Claus.
Billy |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - March 20 2005 : 9:52:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Don't tax the system, Wiggs. Take out the chewing gum and then try thinking.
Let me give an example that appeals to prevailing prejudices on the forum to show you how easy this is.
If Michael Moore announced he was doing a film on Bush's Social Security reform, and he announced in a press release that he'd be concerned with how it will affect, say, farmers in the Midwest and Tom DeLay, does anyone think they could write a review ahead of time of this film and catch, if not exact phrases, the thrust and the conclusion with any accuracy? Let's not always see the same hands....
Now, if any pedestrian crypto-military wannabe - caught late in life with emotional need to blame unknown "others" for his various forms of disappointments and feeling betrayed that childhood understandings aren't true and could never have been - finds himself with opportunity to write a pamphlet using his attraction to the Custer fiasco as heavy-handed metaphor, and announces the imminent arrival of this work lazily referencing Custer as heroic sacrifice on one hand (with plenty of ungrateful civilians above him and Judas creatures below)and the author on the other (allowing readers to make desired subtle connections), I think anyone on this board could write that review without reading it just as easily and at about the same percentage of accuracy. Which would be high.
The staggering number of metaphors, hyperboles, and descriptive adjectives utilized by you in this one paragraph was absolutely dazzling, although it made your thread a little difficult to decipher. However, I was impressed with your consistency of starting your threads with a personal insult. The crack about removing my chewing gum implied that I can't read and think at the same time. For shame D.c.! Now that wasn't nice at all. But then, you aren't very nice are you?
Paul made a salient point when he referred to your manner of,"talking down to people in stilted, uncommon English", which is quite disconcerting and immensely distracting when attempting to read your comments.
Anyway, your unsubstantiated comparison of Moore to the author in question has nothing to do with the price of tea in China. As Movingrobewoman pointed out, the amount of time, toil, and labor involved in complying a manuscript (any manuscript) for publication is not the easiest thing to do in life. How many times have you accomplished such a mission, if I may ask?
Finally, I refuse to buy into your philosophy of condemnation without knowledge of what is being condemned. It smacks of the harsh censorship and restrictive policies, against free thought, so prevalent of the Dark Ages. As ridiculous as you have perceived this written work to be, is it not possible that the author may have stumbled upon an interesting fact or two? Could he have, somewhere between the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause, derived upon a bit of knowledge that may have been of import to someone other than yourself?
By the way, when I refer to "someone" D.c., I'm not addressing the Superior Homo Sapien type, such as yourself, who knows what is best. I'm adressing the common, not quite as intelligent, incapable of chewing gum and walking at the same time, folk like me. You don't mind if we read books without your permission and conclude our own thoughts, do you?
Yes, my pleasant friend who brings me great joy everytime you post, even if Moore produced a film espounding upon the pleasant, agreeable, warm, affectionate, and compassionate personality endowed with extraordinary diplomatic skills by the name of D.c., I would view it first before condemning it as unmitigated B.S. |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on March 20 2005 10:00:19 PM |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - March 21 2005 : 03:13:44 AM
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I would view it first before condemning it as unmitigated B.S.
If the source is a bull is it necessary to check out the S***? |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - March 21 2005 : 06:08:31 AM
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And just for balance.
Now, if any pedestrian crypto-military wannabefinds himself with opportunity to write a pamphlet using his attraction to the Custer fiasco
If someone aspires to being a"crypto"anything the last thing they are going to do is write pamphlets.
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - March 21 2005 : 7:02:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by wILD I
I would view it first before condemning it as unmitigated B.S.
If the source is a bull is it necessary to check out the S***?
Wild, I surrender! One can not argue with your logical deduction! An hypothesis reduced to its lowest denomination. |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 21 2005 : 9:20:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by BJMarkland
"...and feeling betrayed that childhood understandings aren't true and could never have been ..."
Are you making an insinuation against the veracity of the Easter Bunny?
How low will you go in your efforts to destroy all that is good!!! Pretty soon you will come out with that old wife's tale about there being no Santa Claus.
Billy
Billy--
Well, personally, I've always believed in the Cubbie curse and the Tooth Fairy. Getting back to the point of the discussion that was hijacked by Dark Cloud's opines about something he has not bothered to read, I found another source for Wycliffe Cooper's "suicide." Unfortunately it is from ANOTHER high school teacher, which should make us all run for cover, right??? Wert: pg. 258,
"The only tragedy on the march had been Major Wycliffe Cooper's suicide, which Custer attributed to alcohol."
Wert also lists Frost as a source, but more interestingly, gives Merington one as well, pg. 204--I have the book around here, and as it as close to a primary source as we can get with GAC/LBC, I'll dig through the piles in my hovel for it ... he also cites Hutton.
Lemme check on Merington ...
hoka hey! |
movingrobe |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 22 2005 : 12:54:55 PM
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I haven't bothered to read the Classics Illustrated takes on the battle, nor 99% of the disturbed novels that deal with it, nor hardly anything in Wild West Magazine anymore since the Nightengale horror. I have yet to see a tv program that increased my knowledge or, for that matter, wasn't utterly bogus on its face, that covered the Little Bighorn.
In many cases, not all, not reading the material being discussed would automatically discredit any conclusions drawn, although people who haven't actually read Gray pretend to have all the time on this board, obvious to those who have.
But Custer Lit operates outside of this convention. There is very little designed to solve anything, because there is little if anything left to "solve" within human ability or even CSI verification. In fact, the last thing desired is a solved "mystery" contrived in the first place. It serves as a procedure for people to dress up other issues - Vietnam, Hippies, Communism, Patriotism, European annoyance that the US looks down on them these days, the odd but necessary presence of a professional military in a democracy, excuses for their own failures and unimportance - under the guise of "my studies" devoted to solutions to questions unimportant to anyone. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 22 2005 : 3:48:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Warlord
Lavender Boy: The above posting is one of your most inane and inaccurate to date. It is amazing you think you are providing anyone on this board with anything in the way of meaningful information! It is only rambling, about how intelligent you suppose yourself to be. By paragraph.
1. It is obvious even I have read more about Custer than you, at this point. Many here are real scholars of the subject compared to you at a grade school level.
2. Most all here have read Gray. I think many of us are just not that impressed.
3. America is not a democracy as you should know!
I really wish you would go back to school!
Warlord--
I'll come right out with it, I'll admit! I have not yet read Gray. However, DC's incessant ramblings about the guy's theories caused me to buy the volume about Mitch Bouyer and the 1876 Summer Campaign. It's in the pile of other Custer stuff I haven't yet gotten to--it just hasn't made it to the top of the heap.
America's not a democracy? Now you're talking!
hoka hey ... ? |
movingrobe |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 22 2005 : 5:41:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
And what, pray tell, is on the top of your heap above Gray?
In progress: Michno's 'Mystery of E Troop,' Leckie's 'Elizabeth Bacon Custer,' Jerome Greene's 'Wash-ita,' and Hoig's 'The Battle of the Wash-ita.' Since you seem so worried, DC, allow me to convey this goal--I'll get to Gray 'afore this year's assault on LBH.
Then of course, there are all them manuscripts I read each day and all that useless 19th Century Russian history stuff ...
So much to read--so little time ...
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movingrobe |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - March 22 2005 : 9:43:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
In many cases, not all, not reading the material being discussed would automatically discredit any conclusions drawn, although people who haven't actually read Gray pretend to have all the time on this board, obvious to those who have.
But Custer Lit operates outside of this convention. There is very little designed to solve anything, because there is little if anything left to "solve" within human ability or even CSI verification. In fact, the last thing desired is a solved "mystery" contrived in the first place. It serves as a procedure for people to dress up other issues - Vietnam, Hippies, Communism, Patriotism, European annoyance that the US looks down on them these days, the odd but necessary presence of a professional military in a democracy, excuses for their own failures and unimportance - under the guise of "my studies" devoted to solutions to questions unimportant to anyone.
This is an open request to the entire forum, help me to understand how a democracy who maintains a military force in a world of petty tyrants, Iran, Bin Laden, Suicide bombers, 9-11 terrorist attacks, North Korea, and Al-Queda, is considered "odd" for doing so? Is it not beneficial for all of us that this great Country maintain a military presence under such circumstances? In fact, wouldn't it be "odd" to do otherwise?
Further, to state that there is little of this battle "to be solved" defies human rationality. How then do you explain the enormous interest in an event that,in actuality,is comparatively inconsequential when compared to other, world shaking confrontations such as the Battle of Hastings that determined world altering events that effect us to this very day.
This battle did nothing to effect the final solution of America's recourse. Although it was the ultimate in the final solution of the Native Americans.
The Battle of the Little Big Horn exemplifies Americana. It is who we are, for the better or the worst, the good and the bad. It encompasses the pioneer syndrome that fascinates so many of us. That is why, despite your obvious distaste for it, it continues to intrigue us beyond the norm.
What I don't understand is your consistent, unfaltering, inexplicable, and domineering dogma that anyone who would dare believe that Custer was anything but an idiot is a buffoon, a believer in fairy tales, an "Idiot Savant" who would better serve as a greeter at the local Wal-Mart.
When challenged with any accusation of being a Custer-phile you always respond with, "I never called him an idiot," which is true; you never have. However, you've spent an exorbitant amount of time describing Custer's every move during this battle as idiotic or puzzling. Every request he made to his subordinates was senseless or impossible to comply with. May I offer an honest and personal opinion? You appear to have issues with every member of this forum who may feel that Custer was anything but a complete incompetent.
I will agree with you on one important issue, when you say that the least, desired wish concerning this battle is a "solved Mystery" I am in complete accord. I thrive upon the enigma of the Battle of the Little Big Horn, that is why I am here. Those who disagree with my perspectives only serve to encourage me to delve further into the facts of this battle. I enjoy honest disagreement. Why are you here? |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 23 2005 : 10:06:05 AM
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Much better, Wiggs. By paragraph.
1. The issue isn't a military force, it's a professional military force. Militaries are socialistic systems requiring adherence to authorities in conflict with democratic ideals, for a lack of a better term. Military justice isn't anything like the civilian justice it defends, for example. It's the nature of the beast.
2. "Human" adds nothing to "rationality", Wiggs. There is hardly anything to be called a mystery. What are called mysteries are of the nature of what individuals or small groups did in very short amounts of time that didn't matter very much. Did Adam eat the apple with his left or right hand, type of thing. We actually know more about this battle than a lot of modern ones. The interest, as I've said, comes primarily from those who see a metaphor to themselves or something close to themselves within it. Most of the participants are personable and recognizeable types still with us, from Custer to Korn, and transference is easy.
3. Learn the difference between "effect" and "affect", although 'effect' is now used as a verb and may have become accepted as military derivitive. "...the final solution of America's recourse" means what? There was no final solution to the Native Americans, in upper or lower case.
4. Gobbledegook. It attracts people for different reasons, but most are males seeking salve or, worse, posing as one who deserves it. Just like computer geeks are authorities on digital trivia but rarely programmers, and baseball card statistic nuts aren't themselves remotely athletic, Custer Lit and Studies provides an outlet for those who want to pose as historian or authority on something, anything. They get very angry when their shallow depths are plumbed by shoelace.
5. Hint: using sequencial modifiers in threes, generally redundancies, makes you look stupid, Wiggs. You do it a lot. Further, I hardly think Custerphiles are Idiot Savants, but substantial numbers are idiots. Custer shouldn't be burdened with them, and I don't, and some resent that because they want to be seen as his props and rewarded for it. I don't think Custer was remotely an idiot. He went to the well once too often. Big deal, in the scheme of things. He was an overrated but still terrific soldier. Custerphiles erupt when his failures or inconsistencies are presented, but it's about them, not him.
6. Inaccurate. I don't think Custer did anything past MTC because he was incapacitated. I cannot believe he would take his men to LSH and pass up a crossing. I don't understand the sequential orders to Benteen, given that anyone could compose clear orders to do what was wanted. But before that, I don't understand the refusal to use his scouts to find and tabulate the village, check the southern approach, and to keep the regiment together till he had a remote clue as to village size and the lay of the land. I don't get that.
I do have issues with those who fail to realize that Custer cannot be patted into shape to serve their own emotional needs and still be an accurate representation. Custer can never be sick, tired, confused, momentarily stupid, or concerned with anything except the attack, unless "thoughts of Libbie", and whatever failures he had were done for the best reasons. That's not a human being. And not true.
7. For reasons I've previously stated, among which was not letting the LBH become exclusive to the Custerphile. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - March 23 2005 : 12:59:16 PM
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This is an open request to the entire forum, help me to understand how a democracy who maintains a military force in a world of petty tyrants, Iran, Bin Laden, Suicide bombers, 9-11 terrorist attacks, North Korea, and Al-Queda, is considered "odd" for doing so?
Well the breathtaking arrogance of those last two posts.It may come as a shock to you Joe but many in the world today would place the US at the top of that list of petty tyrants.It's for another board but it might be no harm to just check out who overthrew democracy in Iran and supported a petty tyrant.
DC
The interest, as I've said, comes primarily from those who see a metaphor to themselves or something close to themselves within it. Most of the participants are personable and recognizeable types still with us, from Custer to Korn, and transference is easy.
And what recognizeable type are you DC? Sitting Bull.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 23 2005 : 4:13:49 PM
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Billy--
Re: Wycliffe Cooper's suicide
From Merington, pgs. 204-05, 'Custer's notes, June 8, 1867, at Medicine Lodge Creek, thirty miles from the Platte River, Kansas:
"The officers of the 7th--the entire camp, is wrapped in deep gloom by the suicide of Col. Cooper while in a fit of delirium tremens ... I had just risen from the dinner table where I had been discusssing with Tom Col. Cooper's actions, when Col. Myers came rushing in .... Calling Dr. Coates we hastened to Col. Cooper's tent, and found him lying on knees and face, right hand grasping revolver, ground near him covered with blood ... body still warm, pulse beating, the act having been committeed but 3 or 4 minutes before ...
"Actuated by what I deemed my duty to the living, I warned the officers of the reg't of the fate of him who lay dead. All felt deeply, particularly his intimates who shared his habits. May the example not be lost on them ...
"Another of rum's victims ..."
But it is funny how GAC does relate his cause of death on the official forms. Perhaps a bit of CYA on his part?
Regards, |
movingrobe |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 23 2005 : 5:52:50 PM
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Thank you for the information MRW!!
quote:
But it is funny how GAC does relate his cause of death on the official forms. Perhaps a bit of CYA on his part?
No, I suspect that the "cover" part was in deference to Cooper's family. Suicide was, and is, not "accepted" and during the Victorian era, equated to a lack of moral strength. For all we know, they did not know of his alcoholism and that would have been a double-whammy.
Again, my thanks.
Billy |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - March 24 2005 : 04:45:18 AM
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Suicide was, and is, not "accepted" and during the Victorian era, equated to a lack of moral strength.
Not at all old chap it was the honorable thing to do.Stiff upper lip and all that.Staggering out into the blizzard saying "I may be some time chaps" |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - March 24 2005 : 2:02:48 PM
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But Oates died two monarchs away from Victoria,
Social standards and preferences don't end with the death of a monarch.In fact death prolongs, enhances and adds certain nostalgia to the age.
and heroic sacrifice was viewed differenct from suicide in despair, and that's probably why Oates was honored by that story of Scott's.
Ya think Oates wasn't in despair?
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Edited by - wILD I on March 24 2005 2:07:49 PM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 24 2005 : 2:27:46 PM
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Victorian era ended 1901. Edwardian Era ended 1911. This, 1912, was Georgian. It may or may not showcase exclusively Victorian values, but not era.
It's more likely just puffing the memory of someone who may have simply died and been left(what else could they do, and that's what they did with Evans previous). We don't know, having only Scott's heroic description. There are days missing in Scott's diary, and he describes Oates' death on his 32nd birthday, which may or may not be true. It's a good story, but true or not doesn't actually matter. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Meotzi Mania and Nagging Personal Issues
