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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
 Posted - March 10 2005 : 05:25:28 AM
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| What has you up at this hour of the morning crab? |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 10 2005 : 12:46:18 PM
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Crab, this is beneath you.
I was quoting Ryan, who said "black." That was part of a quote, and you said it was not accurate, and that it said "blackened." That isn't true, at least to the exclusion of my offered quote. In any case, if I'd been reading another account that said "white" and drained of all blood, or smashed into pieces, I'd have referenced that, because my point is that it is very suspicious that Custer was so relatively pristine, even the wounds being rather clean. This lends itself to the supposition that descriptions of Custer arrived from literary template and not fact. No proof, obviously, but there exist in both British and American literature through WWI examples of desired myth, if insisted upon, struggling to become fact. The Angels of Mons come to mind. So does Custer.
According to Godfrey (via Stewart, page 470) in an address on the battle's 40th anniversay, ALL the bodies EXCEPT that of Custer had been mutilated. This contradicts some of his earlier statements. Huh. The Mrs. was still alive, then, and maybe he'd have said Custer went through a Vegematic if she then rested at West Point. There is also a NYT story where both an Indian and a soldier say Custer's body was found east of Keogh's group (page 485, Stewart). We don't know, and the lockstep uananimity of many vs. the contradictory statements, even between themselves, of a few do not suggest we have the truth. But then, this strikes me as trivia.
I don't understand the emotional need of modern day people to ascertain the exact location of death, by what exact means, by which exact people, and at what click of the second hand. A likely theory is that they have to maintain Custer as a lesser god - always competent, always fighting - for emotional needs of their own. You can read the melodramatic titles of offered forthcoming books and see this. It's not a search for truth but for a personal vindication in their own lives. Unfortunately, they often find the need to dis the memory of others that do not deserve it. I find that unacceptable, and that it should be confronted. People should at least be honest about their motivations, and seldom in Custerland do those motivations have much to do with Custer. At various points in our history you got rewarded for praising him or excoriating him. Still do, I guess. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - March 10 2005 : 12:55:12 PM
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wILDI: So I guess that means you don't put the .270 in the back of the Bentley and pop over to Scotland for a bit of Stag Stalking?
Naw.Nearest I ever got to that was when we would ignore the targets at range practice and put a few rounds of 303 into the sheep up on the hills behind the butts.
Of course, it is always easier to police sheep than Longhorns.Well if you equate your citizens to animals then I suppose you have to live with the likes of Columbine. |
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hunkpapa7
Lieutenant
United Kingdom
Status: offline |
Posted - March 10 2005 : 7:40:57 PM
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Warlord,
would that be Dunblane you are thinking off in Perthshire Scotland.
another was at Newbury Berkshire England
I myself have a Sioux Bow & Arrows,which certainly hurries on the door to door salesmen  |
wev'e caught them napping boys
Aye Right ! |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 11 2005 : 06:42:51 AM
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quote:
Which reminds me, Billy could you please post the second part of the Berdan rifle article, I was looking forward to it. If its not too much trouble of course - that is.
Dave, certainly. Thanks for reminding me as I got side-tracked last time over at Leavenworth reading old Ft. Leavenworth newspapers, circa 1865 and 1882. I will also take a look for the article which they mention that covered the testing of the arms.
Billy |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - March 11 2005 : 09:41:03 AM
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Murder is a matter of intent and will, not weapons.
Warlord supply intent with an AK 47 and see what you get.
If you arm the citizenry what you do is to arm every looney,weirdo,disaffected and traumatised soldier in the state.You give them the means to murder on a massive scale.The availability of arms escalates every confrontation to a life and death situation.And it is not only crazy individuals that have to be faced but groups of them like at Wako.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 11 2005 : 12:29:37 PM
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| Thirty years before SOTMS, Edgar Stewart mentioned the Wild I, page 172. He references Fred Dustin, the Custer Tragedy, page 236 for that, saying the Company I had a drinking reputation throughout the army. I don't have that book at present, but Dustin is reliable. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - March 12 2005 : 4:28:15 PM
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wIld1: When the loonies come to cut your nuts off you, and you are unarmed, make sure you write a strong note of protest to scotland yard!.
Wrong police force Warlord but I know what you mean.
Thanks for the very interesting reply.It is a huge issue perhaps more suitable for another board but just to end off with this
TLANTA, March 12 - A killing spree that terrorized Atlanta over the last 24 hours ended Saturday morning when a man accused of killing a judge, a court reporter and a sheriff's deputy in a courthouse rampage surrendered peacefully after a SWAT team cornered him in the apartment of a woman he had taken hostage as she arrived home.
Some longhorn what Warlord? |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - March 12 2005 : 6:24:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by wILD I
TLANTA, March 12 - A killing spree that terrorized Atlanta over the last 24 hours ended Saturday morning when a man accused of killing a judge, a court reporter and a sheriff's deputy in a courthouse rampage surrendered peacefully after a SWAT team cornered him in the apartment of a woman he had taken hostage as she arrived home.[/b]
Some longhorn what Warlord?
It's pretty bad that people didn't think that uncuffing a big guy like him and escorting him with a single female deputy was a bad idea until after he took her gun and killed three people.
R. Larsen |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - March 12 2005 : 9:56:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous Poster8169
quote:
Originally posted by wILD I
TLANTA, March 12 - A killing spree that terrorized Atlanta over the last 24 hours ended Saturday morning when a man accused of killing a judge, a court reporter and a sheriff's deputy in a courthouse rampage surrendered peacefully after a SWAT team cornered him in the apartment of a woman he had taken hostage as she arrived home.[/b]
Some longhorn what Warlord?
It's pretty bad that people didn't think that uncuffing a big guy like him and escorting him with a single female deputy was a bad idea until after he took her gun and killed three people.
R. Larsen
The very idea that a supervisor allowed this inexcusable breach of sanity to occur is reprehensible. When escorting a felon anywhere, sufficient manpower (numbers or physical size) should be of paramount importance. Yes, gentlemen, a supervisor is ultimately responsible for this needless tragedy! |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on March 12 2005 9:59:17 PM |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - March 13 2005 : 2:11:42 PM
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And
US police are struggling to establish a motive for a shooting spree at an evangelical church service that killed eight people, including the gunman. Terry Ratzmann, 44, shot dead seven churchgoers in Brookfield
No comment needed |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - March 13 2005 : 2:42:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
The very idea that a supervisor allowed this inexcusable breach of sanity to occur is reprehensible. When escorting a felon anywhere, sufficient manpower (numbers or physical size) should be of paramount importance. Yes, gentlemen, a supervisor is ultimately responsible for this needless tragedy!
Nobody's ultimately responsible except for the guy who did it. It's just too bad that lessons in the obvious sometimes have to be brutally learned. (This assumes the reports are accurate).
R. Larsen |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 15 2005 : 6:57:22 PM
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This is a question for all of you battle-heartened buffs! What exactly were the circumstances behind Major Wycliffe Cooper's suicide in 1867? From what I have discerned, the guy was drunk, and not at all a fan of his LTC. Likewise, I have heard that GAC regarded the death with little sympathy and ordered a stepping up of his "no alcohol" orders. Was Tom Custer the officer on duty that night?
Thanks--and hokahey! |
movingrobe |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 16 2005 : 12:19:20 AM
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MRW, I owe you a potent drink of your choice if ever in Kansas City or if I am ever in the same neighborhood of your favorite bar and grill!
I am curious about that because of my research, identifying dead troops and their causes of death. The word that Wycliff committed suicide is news to me. The regimental rolls just mentioned he died - no cause of death specified (which did make me suspicious, but...).
Billy
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 16 2005 : 12:48:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by BJMarkland
MRW, I owe you a potent drink of your choice if ever in Kansas City or if I am ever in the same neighborhood of your favorite bar and grill!
I am curious about that because of my research, identifying dead troops and their causes of death. The word that Wycliff committed suicide is news to me. The regimental rolls just mentioned he died - no cause of death specified (which did make me suspicious, but...).
Billy
I'll have to go and recheck my sources--but from what I understand, Cooper's cause of death was deliberately misportrayed. With morale so low in the summer of 1867--and Custer's growing frustrations with the limitations of his new, relatively boring life, and that futile search for hostiles, he didn't want anything to reflect negatively on his command. Remember that in the winter of 1865 and spring of 1866, GAC's actions and ability were continually questioned whilst on Reconstruction duty, even by former allies (Barnitz, okay, bad example). I believe Tom Custer was the officer on duty--and he found the dude, and didn't go immediately to his brother. What shocked Armstrong was that Cooper, for a long time, had been part of the "clan," just bailed ... IMHO, this event seemed to be one of those defining moments that led to his going AWOL.
Fortunately for you, Billy, I haven't loaned these books to family members--I'll get on it after I catch up with my email ... and I'm always up for some potent potables--just don't come to Arkansas! I've spent the entire 19 years I've lived here trying to get out!
Oh, for the mountains of Montana--and a winning season at old Wrigley Field ...
Hoka hey!
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movingrobe |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 16 2005 : 3:15:29 PM
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Billy--
Here is my first quote regarding Cooper's death. This excerpt is taken from "Tom Custer: Ride to Glory," by Carl F. Day, widely regarded as being the best source for information regarding the younger brother. On pages 107-108 (and he lists his source as Lawrence Frost's "The Court Martial of General George Armstrong Custer"):
"Tom felt invigorated by the clean air of the plains (okay, a bit of author intrusion). It felt good to be outside, and especially to be back with Armstrong (argh ... more author intrusion). At night they dined together, discussing the day's march and recounting their past escapades. During their evening meal on 8 June they were discussing the personal habits of Major Wickliffe Cooper. They had barely finshed their meal when they heard a gunshot. An officer rushed up with the news that Major Cooper had committed suicide. Tom and Armstrong hurried to Cooper's tent and found the unfortunate man lying on the floor in a pool of blood. Alcohol, the scourge of the western armies had claimed another casuality ..."
Billy, I'm gonna dig around for more stuff ...
Regards, |
movingrobe |
Edited by - movingrobewoman on March 16 2005 3:42:47 PM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 16 2005 : 10:03:32 PM
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The noted Carl F. Day, high school teacher? I prefer Gloria Hyphen-Prentension's "Thomas! Annoying Footnote to Glorious George!" 1967, Her Husband's Xerox, Hygiene, Colorado, a worthy successor to 1956's "Boston! Glorious Gallop To Glory!", Her Mother's Xerox, Cicero, Illinois, and 1947's "Dandy Dandy! Galloping Glory to Glorious Gallump Or Something!!"
History told in the first person voice of Tom's horse, bastard son, and Rain in the Face's cousin by marriage. It doesn't get more compelling.
However, I'm sure "Tom Custer: Ride to Glory" has its points as well. I'll die before I read it. There must be a combine that sells pretentious titles that all sound alike to Custer authors. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 17 2005 : 12:30:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
The noted Carl F. Day, high school teacher? I prefer Gloria Hyphen-Prentension's "Thomas! Annoying Footnote to Glorious George!" 1967, Her Husband's Xerox, Hygiene, Colorado, a worthy successor to 1956's "Boston! Glorious Gallop To Glory!", Her Mother's Xerox, Cicero, Illinois, and 1947's "Dandy Dandy! Galloping Glory to Glorious Gallump Or Something!!"
History told in the first person voice of Tom's horse, bastard son, and Rain in the Face's cousin by marriage. It doesn't get more compelling.
However, I'm sure "Tom Custer: Ride to Glory" has its points as well. I'll die before I read it. There must be a combine that sells pretentious titles that all sound alike to Custer authors.
Yadda, yadda, yadda ... I think you've got Day's book confused with "In His Brother's Shadow" by Roy Bird. THAT book was a crock--especially with the author's reliance upon modern (as opposed to contemporary stuff) fiction to further deliver his arguements. I was hoping to get some insight into Tom's personality (this is called research) and felt completely robbed.
And just what the heck is wrong with a high school teacher being an author of history? Wert is one as well. At least the guy is practicing his craft! Oh, yeah--and Louise Barnett teaches literature at Rutgers ... can't know anything about history in that department!
I'm sure this will launch you into bashing Frost (as that is Day's source) as well. I mean, what the heck did a dentist from Monroe, Michigan know about history or the most famous citizen of the town? And what does Monroe know about Custer?
Sermon over. |
movingrobe |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 17 2005 : 3:13:24 PM
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Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Not confused, haven't read either book and highly unlikely to read them.
Then at least, and I say this in good will, until you have read these volumes, keep your "educated" comments to yourself and let those who have read them gripe and moan or praise them and/or their authors to their little hearts' content. |
movingrobe |
Edited by - movingrobewoman on March 17 2005 3:20:20 PM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 17 2005 : 4:17:03 PM
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I said in my first posting I hadn't read it; that I'd die before I would.
In any case, I'm doing nothing to prevent people from praising it, or even reading it. In my experience with Custer lit, the title is a dead giveaway, and nothing in the quote you provided dissuades me a review couldn't be written without reading it. If you read a "bio" of TR with the author referring to the President as Teddy throughout, wouldn't you find that presumptuous to imply an intimacy of knowledge and understanding not exactly possible? But in the vast majority of Custer lit, authors claim that intimacy with "Autie" and "Tom." Icky.
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Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 17 2005 : 6:47:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
I said in my first posting I hadn't read it; that I'd die before I would.
In any case, I'm doing nothing to prevent people from praising it, or even reading it. In my experience with Custer lit, the title is a dead giveaway, and nothing in the quote you provided dissuades me a review couldn't be written without reading it. If you read a "bio" of TR with the author referring to the President as Teddy throughout, wouldn't you find that presumptuous to imply an intimacy of knowledge and understanding not exactly possible? But in the vast majority of Custer lit, authors claim that intimacy with "Autie" and "Tom." Icky.
Apparently you never learned to get beyond the grade school "let's fake a book report" and despite this, still sound like we know what we're talking about. Bosh. READ THE BOOK before you comment--it's an old "scholarly" rule. Tends to make people look a bit less ridiculous that way.
Now, a writing lesson--for free!
When you have two guys named Custer on the same page or same book, exchanging actions, as a rule, you gotta differentiate them (even in non-fiction). It reads easier and creates less confusion with the reader. I do think you have a point with "Autie," but I have no problem with "Armstrong" or "Tom." And as there was more than one captain with the Seventh Cavalry, just differentiating between their (GA and TW Custer's) army positions (i.e., the Lt. Colonel and the Captain) would not be enough. Anytime you gotta take out a piece of paper to try and keep the characters and their actions apart means the author has just lost you--and that is never a good trend. |
movingrobe |
Edited by - movingrobewoman on March 17 2005 6:48:49 PM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 17 2005 : 11:28:09 PM
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As I've said, it would only look mildly ridiculous if the review was off by a mile. If, however, the review was pretty close, or dead on, what would that say about the state of Custer Lit? Really, MRW, look at the titles of the Harrington and Sturgis books, read the postings of the authors, and you already know what they think, how they write, what they'll say. In your heart of hearts, you know it's true, and you could write a review of them now and most wouldn't know if you'd read the actual book or not.
And by the way? It's the basis of most reviews these days. It's pretty apparent that most reviews are based on press releases and summations, heavy references to first chapter and maybe a quick check to the index, if non-fiction, to find a later page on the same subject to imply the book was read. They all seem to use the same quotes and they all have the same keywords, it sometimes seems.
And, you know, thanks but I've grasped the concept of distinguishing characters. However, when the terms are used when not needed - and there's always, you know, their respective ranks and given names - it's disquieting. When nick names and terms of intimacy are used by the author which in life were accorded only to spouse and family, it's icky. In life, only his family and maybe very close friends, I believe, called Custer 'Autie.' In death, ever fluff job writer feels free to affect that close a relationship, excused by the word "Glory" in the title, apparently. Icky. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 18 2005 : 1:00:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
As I've said, it would only look mildly ridiculous if the review was off by a mile. If, however, the review was pretty close, or dead on, what would that say about the state of Custer Lit? Really, MRW, look at the titles of the Harrington and Sturgis books, read the postings of the authors, and you already know what they think, how they write, what they'll say. In your heart of hearts, you know it's true, and you could write a review of them now and most wouldn't know if you'd read the actual book or not.
Whatever, DC. I read manuscripts everyday in my "real" life and darn, I manage to get through every single page of them--whether I feel like throwing them against the wall or not. A person has worked hard to present me with a chunk of their writing, and I'm not, out of hand, gonna diss it the way it seems so easy for you to do. I do want to read the Harrington book--I may not be enamored by the author's theory--but as a writer myself and knowing how hard it is to get pen to paper and spill your guts out over 185,000 words of manuscript ...
But then again, you know everything about everything. What's the point of discussion? |
movingrobe |
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Meotzi Mania and Nagging Personal Issues
