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lorendead
Lt. Colonel
USA
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 Posted - April 22 2003 : 8:52:54 PM
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Does anyone agree that had Weir survived and not died before the Reno Court of Inquiry. Thats his testimony would have resulted in formal charges being brought against Reno and Benteen?
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Anonymous Poster2374
Forum Guest
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Posted - April 23 2003 : 12:51:57 AM
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He might have, but he's an interesting case. He may have had an affair with Mrs. Custer (authors imply this, but I haven't seen any evidence and doubt anyone would be that stupid)but was uncommonly close to both of them. He certainly drank.
If you read the letter Benteen allegedly wrote to his wife right after the battle, it seems pretty obvious the only ones who made it to Weir Point environs was Weir, and everyone else puttered to Sharpshooter Ridge, where they saw Weir hustling back. If you stand on Sharpshooter Ridge, your view is not much altered of the battlefield, I don't think, from Weir Point's.
The nearest 'high ground' to Reno Hill is Sharpshooter Ridge. The insistence on Weir Point is based, I think, on the crappy map that was used at various hearings. This forced them to agree later that Weir Point was where they were rather than revisit the various testimonies.
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com |
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Ken008
Recruit
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - April 13 2004 : 11:47:04 PM
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Wier wrote Mrs. Custer after the battle that there were alot of things that he wanting to tell Mrs. Custer in person about the battle. But his death in Dec. of 1876 prevented his telling Mrs. Custer. The Reno Court of Inquiry would have been very interesting if he would have lived to testify. From what I have read Weir would have testified that Reno and Benteen stood around doing nothing even though they heard the firing coming from north where Custer was fighting the Indians. Even Godfrey who was partially deaf heard the firing, as did Varnum, Wallace and various enlisted personnel who wrote about the battle. Reno and Benteen testified that they did not hear any firing for the direction of the Custer battlefield.
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
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Posted - April 15 2004 : 02:27:53 AM
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Yes, there are a lot of circumstances concerning the bad conscience and faults of Reno and Benteen. I always wondered why the court of inquiry did'nt touch Benteen. His slowly coming, with an urgent order to come with packs, and he even stop to water the horses and all the rest...Everybody knows that he hated Custer. But Benteen has not thought that with its retard he would have killed also the two hundred cavalrymen who fought with him?
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If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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inwit
Corporal
Status: offline |
Posted - April 19 2004 : 2:22:34 PM
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Knightengale gives an interesting but controversial scenario:
When Weir reached Weir point, Custer, who at that time had all 5 companies with him at Last Stand Hill (or thereabouts), sent Calhoun and 3 companies to keep open the route for the the command to re-unite. Whereupon, Benteen arrives and orders the retreat back to Reno Hill, sealing the fate of the five companies.
Knightengale even has a moment where Benteen and Custer view each other through field glasses.
While some of this might be far fetched, considering the language Weir used in his letter to Mrs. Custer, he must have had something very interesting to say. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 20 2004 : 10:39:01 PM
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Nonsense. Custer didn't think all that much of Weir, although he was puzzled by his wife's attraction to him, and Weir has been suggested as the reason Custer hightailed it back to his wife and got courtmartialed years before. It's not entirely clear which Custer Weir favored. In any case, he was a whopping chronic drunk - far more famous as such than Reno - and his bravado could have as easily been caused by the corn as Reno's timidity that day. Stuff like that happens.
Further, this whole hypothesis of Benteen or Reno or anyone allowing Custer and his men to be killed is just bonkers. Everyone had friends with Custer. It was far from a sure thing they'd survive if half the regiment bit it.
In any case, they'd have been called out and shot for cowardice if any number of them actually believed it, and other officers would have taken over. That this didn't happen is either proof that Benteen's story is essentially true or that the 7th knew they couldn't surivive without him. Coulda's, shoulda's, woulda's from men who survived and felt guilty about it. Scapegoat.
It could have been a fifty-fifty call, like much in life, but Reno's men were useless at that point, they had to defend the train with far more than two companies, given the proximity to a large village (if they lost the train they were all dead, plain and simple) so that doesn't leave much to attack. Not enough, anyway. It was a simple example of projecting insufficient power, dividing it, and being just able to defend themselves because the enemy was more incoherent and purposeless than the 7th.
Given that everyone, white and red, commented upon the huge amounts of airborne dust that day, it would take a believing mind to conjur up Custer and Benteen looking at each other through their glasses across the miles, or that Custer had the time.
Given the quality and shape of the men they had, it is most likely that Benteen and Reno made the wise choice. Everyone felt guilty about not rushing to Custer's aid, Benteen provided the agreed upon story leaving out any 50-50 call admission, and that's how it was. Like every other battle. A SNAFU that didn't break Custer's way for once. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 10 2004 : 10:35:25 PM
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The one factor about the battle that has always fascinated me is the vague and sometimes convoluted information concerning what was seen from Weir Point by the Captain and his men. The basic information that has been made available to us is this, a group of Indians were riding about shooting their weapons at objects on the ground apparently dispatching the wounded of Custer's command. The fading shots heard by Weir's comand was belived to be the parting shots of Custers re-guard. Sometime later, the Indians massed upon Weir's front and charged towards him forcing a retreat to Reno's bluff. My question is this, why is it that we have so much Indian tstimony about every facet of the battle with this one exception. Why don't we have an Indian statement similar to the following: " As we were in the process of eliminated the troopers who remained, we could not but see the encroachment of more troopers coming towards us. Therefore we sent many of our men to counter this new threat while others completed the destruction of those soldiers on Custer Hill."
Don't misunderstand me, I an not saying that this is what occurred, but when he peruse the abundant statements and information from the warriors why is it that no information regarding this critical portion of the battle has been made available. I have a possible conclusion, such information was known but hidden from the sensitive ears of the nineteenth century. In an era of racial superiorty of the white man over the red man such a possibility was unacceptable and unforgiveable. What do you think? |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - May 11 2004 : 09:38:26 AM
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Does anyone agree that had Weir survived and not died before the Reno Court of Inquiry. Thats his testimony would have resulted in formal charges being brought against Reno and Benteen?
Hi lorendead
It is my opinion that if anyone was going to be charged it should have been Weir.
Arriving at the scene of Reno's defeat he took off on a solo run deserting his own troop without the approval of his battalion commander.This then led to confusion resulting in his own troop taking off after him followed Reno's and Benteen's units.Weir's actions led to the command giving up a defensive position and taking off in the general direction of Custer with no particular plan in mind.This movement could have resulted in the total massacre of the command. |
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inwit
Corporal
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Posted - May 24 2004 : 4:28:59 PM
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Yes, Weir risked alot. The question is why.
Weir was overheard telling Reno something to the effect of "someone shall hear of this if we get out of here, sir!" in relation to Reno's failure to timely move toward Custer.
Alot must have been said on Reno Hill that we will never know. (When Moylan heard the firing from downstream he commented, "gentlemen, in my opinion General Custer just made the biggest mistake of his life.").
But, what happened on Weir Hill? The comments of some of the enlisted men give the impression that a major battle was still in progress. The bit about seeing the Indians "shooting at objects on the ground" sounds a little too much like spin "for the good of the regiment."
But what Weir saw all depends on the timing questions. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
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inwit
Corporal
Status: offline |
Posted - May 24 2004 : 6:31:29 PM
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| Edgerly (sp.), I believe. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
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inwit
Corporal
Status: offline |
Posted - May 24 2004 : 7:18:54 PM
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| It will be a pleasure to prove you wrong. (When I am at home and have the time.) |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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inwit
Corporal
Status: offline |
Posted - May 26 2004 : 12:34:28 PM
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Actually, my once vaunted memory has failed me somewhat. The source is Private Goldin, who said:
"Near where we were standing [with Wallace], quite a group of officers had gathered and stood looking down into the valley, talking earnestly together. Just who made up this party I am not certain, but as I now recollect it, Major Reno, Captain French, Captain Weir, Captain McDougall, and possibly some of the other officers were in the group.
While Lieutenant Wallace and I were still talking, Captain Weir hastily left the group, and as he passed by us, I heard him say something like 'By God, if you don't go, I will, and if we live to get out of here, somebody shall know of this.' To whom he addressed his remarks, or the particular occasion for them, I never heard, as I never heard the matter mentioned after that.
A few moments after this, I saw Captain Weir mount his horse and move rapidly down the river toward a high bluff that hid our view of the valley to the northward, followed by Lieutenant Edgerly, with D Troop."
Edgerly provides confirmation of some of the circumstances as follows, speaking of Weir:
"He then walked toward Colonel Reno and Benteen, and very shortly came back, mounted his horse, took an orderly with him and went out in the direction from which we had heard the firing and which had then almost wholly ceased.
I supposed that he had received permission to go out with the troop (though he afterwards told me he had not, and had not even asked for it), so I mounted the troop and followed him."
Speaking of the Weir Point incident, Wayne Michael Sarf, author of "The Little Big Horn Campaign" noted:
"What could they see of Custer's battlefield? ... Some of the officers apparently saw more than they would later admit. There is little doubt that Edgerly destroyed the portion of a letter to his wife dealing with the Weir Point episode...." |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 26 2004 : 1:43:04 PM
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Uh huh.
Goldin was a liar and fraud, his stories growing more embellished until he extorted an undeserved MOH nearly twenty odd years after the battle. His exchange with the dottering Benteen was to get information for his own benefit. Goldin eventually pretended to have taken a message from Custer to Reno in an attempt to have been the last guy to have seen Custer. He was a kid at the time. Graham blew him away years ago.
McDougal was in this group from the train, but not Benteen? What a convenient story to give Benteen.
As I pointed out previously, other than Weir in ambulatory mode, there is nothing in Edgerly to support any exchange, since he at least twice recalls Weir told him he never spoke to Reno.
Thank God you included Wayne Michael Sarf's middle name so I didn't confuse him with Wayne Tchecuhuam Sarf, the other author of "The Little Bighorn Campaign." Since the 19th century, authors who use three names are generally overcompensating. In any case, why are the quoted items remotely impressive to you? What evidence is there they are true?
More compelling evidence was provided on the old 'In Search of...' tv show. "Could aliens have distracted Custer?"
For a guy batting .000 on contentions he's been called on, never having seen the field and not realizing how silly some of his points are because of that alone, you probably shouldn't be calling people names, especially bhist who has more knowledge of the field than everybody else in aggregate. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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inwit
Corporal
Status: offline |
Posted - May 26 2004 : 2:02:38 PM
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Goldin's credibility is a seperate issue. You asked for the source of the quote and I gave it to you. I was mistaken that it was Edgerly.
Edgerly's account is compatable with Goldin, but is not confirmation. Perhaps Goldin consulted already published accounts by participants and crafted his own account from those sources. Who knows?
Never been in the field, huh? You're a crackup.
As for bhist, his ranting about "conspiracy" is silly. Almost everyone (except you Dark Cloud) believes there was a conspiracy to cover-the-butts of Reno and Benteen after the fact. I said nothing about bhist's knowledge, I only referenced his misrepresentations of my comments.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
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inwit
Corporal
Status: offline |
Posted - May 26 2004 : 3:33:16 PM
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| I've been there twice, most recently at the 125th Aniv. Little Big Horn Associates meeting in 2001. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 29 2004 : 8:11:45 PM
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| Inwit, unquestionably there was a heated argument between Reno and Weir. Benteen himself attested to the fact that Weir, "sallied on", without permission from his commander. Benteen went even further when he stated, "just as soon as I learned of his (Weir) authorized movements." This incident certainly describs a breakdown in command preceeded by an acute argument, the type that could have produceda Court Martial. 'Instead of ordering Weir out in advance to open communication with Custer, Reno refused him permission to go when he asked for it, and a violent altercation ensued, overheard by several persons near them.'LEGEND INTO HISTORY, Charles Kuhlman, Chapter 6, page 98. The exact words expressed would certainly be of interest for the purposes of study. To disclaim the incident from occurring soley because we can not confirm the exact spoken words serves no legitimate purpose. That a heated argument occurred between the two is historical fact; good job Inwit. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 29 2004 : 9:23:17 PM
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Let's see. Martin, the linguist, said Weir 'had some words' with Reno, but doesn't actually say he heard the discussion, so maybe it was just assumed. Prvate Windolf says 'it was known that' but didn't hear it himself. Godfrey, Weir, and Benteen say that it didn't take place. Hm. Does Reno say it took place? Who actually said they heard it?
A reasonable assumption that they'd talked, but apparently they did not since Weir said he changed his mind and just rode off to avoid being told not to, one supposes.
Again, where did that alleged quote come from? A novel? A preface to a novel? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Rocky76
Corporal
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 29 2004 : 9:43:08 PM
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| actually, the argument between Weir and Reno was suggested by several people, like most rumors it grew and grew...neither Reno nor Weir ever stated that the conversation took place, so therefore it would seem that Weir may have insinuated to Edgerly that he was going to have it out with the "boss", but admitted later that he didn't (suggesting a certain psychological profile)...his grousing may have been overheard by others, or he may have perpetuated the legend himself...one must keep in mind that Weir died reasonably young from the effects of alcohol...he drank heavily, and it killed him...if he was a crack head nobody would have taken a thing he said seriously. Edgerly was as far advanced as Weir, as was most of Troop D and not one of them suggested anything that would be of interest to the widows. |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - May 29 2004 : 9:43:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Thank God you included Wayne Michael Sarf's middle name so I didn't confuse him with Wayne Tchecuhuam Sarf, the other author of "The Little Bighorn Campaign." Since the 19th century, authors who use three names are generally overcompensating.
Just so I may save all the nice folks here some time with their reading -- don’t waste your time reading Wayne Michael Sarf’s book. As Dark Cloud already stated, “authors who use three names are generally overcompensated.” Sarf’s book is long out of print. However, the best book on the Sioux War of 1876 (and still in print) is John Gray’s, “Centennial Campaign.” Notice -- two names, not three.
Oh yes, three words, “still in print” especially after nearly 30 years says a lot about the potential for buying it blind. If you were to read only one book about the Sioux War, then Gray’s book is it. If you were to pick one book you SHOULD NOT read about the Sioux War, then Wayne Michael Sarf’s book is the one not to buy or read.
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Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
Edited by - bhist on May 29 2004 9:45:55 PM |
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Rocky76
Corporal
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 29 2004 : 9:49:32 PM
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| Hey, I have gained my first stripe...I am so proud I am going to write the folks back home. I think Windolph mentions in his account that Benteen and Weir got into it at Pease Bottom...if not it is in the Cartwright collection...Benteen and Weir got into an argument over something or other and Windolph was instructed to shoot anyone that approached Benteen's tent... |
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Rocky76
Corporal
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 29 2004 : 10:06:53 PM
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Not read Wayne's book and based on three names? I have recommended Wayne's book many times as the one book to read... I never considered the fact that he used three names...good point, I will never recommend it again. Hmmm, but who will tell people that the column turned to the right on a buffalo trail that showed signs of being used by travois?...I guess they will have to make sure they study Herendeen's testimony before the Reno Court of Inquiry...so that means they will have to read two books...Grey and Nichols (it's not in the Graham version)...OH, I planned to go on, but you make me tired....Wayne's book may not be your favorite, but it is ok in my book...Grey however manipulated evidence so you are suggesting that we continue to base opinions of the battle on shaky facts...hey, I have an idea! let's all read Mari Sandoz's book and leave it at that...I am serious...she covers it all.
Rocky Lane Boyd |
Edited by - Rocky76 on May 29 2004 10:07:58 PM |
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Weir" Testimony
