| Author |
 Topic  |
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
 Posted - September 26 2004 : 10:50:34 PM
|
"In addition to being indicted as a poltroon and a coward, Reno has also been accused of being drunk on the night of the twenty-fifth, which might acount for the fact that Captain French was unable to find him during this time."
Custer's Luck, Page 417
A "white man" professes the same opinion of many Indians. How ironic. |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on September 26 2004 10:53:57 PM |
  |
|
|
Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - September 27 2004 : 6:17:00 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
A "white man" professes the same opinion of many Indians. How ironic.
Rather than spam the Indian Side board with more white reflections, why don't you explain the logic behind your first Stewart posting? Where's the Indian side.
R. Larsen |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - September 27 2004 : 9:42:47 PM
|
Larsen, against my better judgement, I will attempt to explain(once again)what my posts are about. First of all, let us define the word "perception."
1. the mental grasp of objects, etc. through the senses.(Webster)
Notice that this definition is not encumbered with any reference to race, creed, or nationality. For example, I do not have to be short to understand the trials and tribulations of one who has been ridiculed all his/her life for being short. It is possible to experience empathy for a race of people although you are not a member of that race. Many Whites shared the Indian "perspective" in recognizing the unfairness in which they were treated. Thus, I use statements of individuals, any individuals, to make the point.
Last, but certainly not least, there were and are many non-Native Americans who did much to establish justice for all.
|
|
|
|
BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 28 2004 : 05:43:53 AM
|
quote:
Sadly, a few believe that "real" people with souls do not kill with joy, only savages do that; like Indians.
There you go again Wiggs. The point I was attempting to make is that the majority of the North American (and Central American) tribes/nations, whathaveyou, believed that their tribe, etc., was paramount and others were inferior. Thus, they could, with clear concience, attack, for whatever goal they deemed paramount, and defeat or conquer those lesser tribes, etc.
As far as "happily killing each other", please do a Google seach using these exact terms (including quotes):
"religious+wars"
You will see, after perusing the results, that the Indians were not the only savages and, in my humble opinion, were less savage than our European forefathers. It is likely that the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre in France killed more people than were killed by warfare between Indian and "white" during the entire history of the United States.
Please quit looking at the individual word as intending bias. You must look at a complete statement/argument to determine if bias is present or intended.
Best of wishes,
Billy |
|
|
|
BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 28 2004 : 06:08:56 AM
|
Wiggs, two things to go over.
quote:
In addition to being indicted as a poltroon and a coward, Reno has also been accused of being drunk on the night of the twenty-fifth, which might acount for the fact that Captain French was unable to find him during this time
If I am not mistaken, the "many" Indians referred to were on the Custer battlefield, not the Reno battlefield, thus your point is moot. Secondly, the COI put to rest the idea that Reno was drunk while on duty. Personally, I believe any man with Reno who had booze, and there were several I am sure, took a shot during those long hours of darkness. I know I would have.
quote:
Many Whites shared the Indian "perspective" in recognizing the unfairness in which they were treated.
Actually, that is a topic in and of itself. I have read many statements by military officers who believed that they understood the Indian better than most civilians and they all believed that the military would have been far less corrupt than the current Agent system. On the whole, I tend to agree. Not to say that there were not corrupt military officers, but the "checks and balances" of military discipline would somewhat limit their excesses as opposed to the blatant thievery so prevalent among the appointed (can you say political patronage), secular Agents. One account I read (and didn't write it down, sorry for not sourcing fully Larsen:)was by a Captain in NE at a reservation. He was verifying the amount of beef delivered by civilians for the Indians. The Agent had signed for the delivery of the cattle at 100-150 lbs more than their actual dressed weight. The Captain made them start from scratch and managed to thoroughly P.O. both the Agent and civilian in the process. But the Indians got what they paid for that time.
Also, two of the more successful Agents in the civilian world were former military officers: Jesse Leavenworth and Major Wynkoop. Leavenworth was eventually framed, in my opinion, for corruption and forced to resign. Leavenworth's experiences are worth a look and would make a very good book to anyone who has a penchant for writing and research. Hmmmmmmm...
Best of wishes,
Billy
|
|
|
|
Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - September 28 2004 : 3:42:50 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
Larsen, against my better judgement, I will attempt to explain(once again)what my posts are about.
I asked what only ONE post about. The Stewart quote in which he called the Indians little more than Stone Age savages. What was your logic in posting that on this board, of all boards? How is it empathic? You attacked another poster for saying much the same thing, so you have a duty to explain why it's all right for you to say something (through another's mouth) but it's not all right for someone else to say the same thing.
I asked you something specific and you respond in squirming platitudes.
R. Larsen
|
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - September 29 2004 : 9:25:36 PM
|
Billy, the quote was by Stewart, not I. By posting the statement I was attempting to acknowledge that there were enough accusations of idiocy, poor military tactics, malfeasance of duty, cowardice, and stupidity in this battle to lay upon the shoulders of more than one man.
Your statement regarding the corrupt, civilian "Agents" system is absolutely correct! While there could be no consummate, fail-safe system to ensure equity, the military "checks and balances" system would have been far better. Both Custer and Benteen made statements to that effect. Thus far, that is the only point that they may have agreed upon.
I was being fatuous when I took your statement, "Happily killing each other" out of context. I was not being fair and, I apologize for that. Once again I thank you for your advice and input into the forum.
|
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - October 09 2004 : 8:22:49 PM
|
'The recent upsurge of interest in the Indians' viewpoints toward the white man's conquest of the West has for the most part overlooked the role of the Indian mercenaries and their attitudes. The Arikara scout's first person narratives form a valuable part of the literature of the American Indian.'
'As he rode up to the end of the ridge, he saw many soldiers retreating. Then at their head he saw Reno, with a white hankerchief tied about his head, his mouth and beard white with foam, which dripped down, and his eyes were wild and rolling.'
Red Bear, Interpreter, Alfred Bear-
The Arikara Narrative of Custer's Campaign and the Battle of the Little Bighorn. |
|
|
|
bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - October 10 2004 : 11:53:23 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
'The recent upsurge of interest in the Indians' viewpoints toward the white man's conquest of the West has for the most part overlooked the role of the Indian mercenaries and their attitudes. The Arikara scout's first person narratives form a valuable part of the literature of the American Indian.'
'As he rode up to the end of the ridge, he saw many soldiers retreating. Then at their head he saw Reno, with a white hankerchief tied about his head, his mouth and beard white with foam, which dripped down, and his eyes were wild and rolling.'
Red Bear, Interpreter, Alfred Bear-
The Arikara Narrative of Custer's Campaign and the Battle of the Little Bighorn.
And, it's from this same narrative that the myth of Custer wanting to be President of the United States was born. Red Bear must have had the eyes of a hawk to see Reno's eyes "rolling." It's hard to trust the Arikara Narrative. |
Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - October 11 2004 : 4:34:12 PM
|
Bob,
Red Bear used poetic license in his exuberant descrition of Reno's condition. Perhaps he harbored ill feelings towards Reno as a result of his performance at the battle. To describe anyone in such a manner denotes obvious hostility.
I believe Mari Sandoz used excerps from this narrative to help foster Custer's alleged bid for the presidency in her book about Crazy Horse. If I am not mistaken, both Custer and Benteen believed that the care taking of the Indians should be under the auspices of the military. Perhaps that was the real meaning of Custers' "speech" to the scouts, to be made head of the Indian Bureau once it was removed from its civilian authority?
You are correct when you advise caution when reading the Arikara Narrative. However, I do not think that you can find a better source of information when gathering documention regarding the heroic actions of these scouts; three of them died in battle. |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - October 30 2004 : 9:13:10 PM
|
"But the Gray Fox-Crook-came in midwinter and destroyed their village. Then came Long Hair in the same way. When the Indians first saw Long Hair they wanted to escape but could not, so they were obliged to fight. They fought because the government would not let them alone."
A portion of Crazy Horse's last speech before his death. |
|
|
|
lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - October 31 2004 : 05:36:59 AM
|
| Nothing more far from Custer behaviour than the political world. He had much occasions to be disgusting from politics and their world. Custer desires to be President was just an urban legend. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - November 06 2004 : 3:11:37 PM
|
| Hi Lorenzo, great to hear from you again. We missed your valuable input. |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - November 30 2004 : 9:59:31 PM
|
1868 Laramie Treaty: "no persons except those designated herein (Indians) shall ever be permitted to pass over, settle upon, or reside in the territory described in this article."
U.S. Government
"This abominable compact is now pleaded as a barrier to the improvement and developement of one of the richest and most fertile sections in America. What shall be done with these Indian dogs in our manger?"
Yankton Press and Dakotaian. |
|
|
|
hunkpapa7
Lieutenant
United Kingdom
Status: offline |
Posted - December 05 2004 : 9:48:17 PM
|
When GAC & Elizabeth where in new York city during the winter of 1875-76,Gac met a powerful publisher in James Bennett,and he saw "the boy general with golden locks" as presidential timber,and soon had GAC apiring openley for the democratic nomination in place of Tilden.And they both agreed that a sensational victory over the hostiles would get GAC public acclaim and would be backed by a powerful press,and despite his youth this would make the democratic conention in July sit up and take notice.But GAC as we all know blotted his copybook insinuating Belnap's various commercial enterprises,he soon discovered that his influence in Washington had evaporated in thin air.
CUSTER'S FALL-David Humphreys Miller |
wev'e caught them napping boys
Aye Right ! |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 07 2004 : 7:53:26 PM
|
| Warlord, you are endowed with the wisdom of the ages. Politics and treaties exist to legalize the actions of the dominant group in the eyes of the world. The "have nots" must acquiesce or cease to be. |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 10 2004 : 10:43:06 PM
|
| Warlord, I believe that the "rumor" of Custer's desire to be president of the United States was initiated by Mari Sandoz in her book regarding Crazy Horse. I have posted this position on a prior occasion. I've often wondered if his real desire was to be in charge of Indian affairs. This was probably the only point he and Benteen were in complete accord with, the belief that this critical position should be under the auspices of the military rather than a civilian guardianship. What do you think? |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on December 10 2004 10:48:59 PM |
|
|
|
BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 11 2004 : 10:30:43 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
Warlord, I believe that the "rumor" of Custer's desire to be president of the United States was initiated by Mari Sandoz in her book regarding Crazy Horse. I have posted this position on a prior occasion. I've often wondered if his real desire was to be in charge of Indian affairs. This was probably the only point he and Benteen were in complete accord with, the belief that this critical position should be under the auspices of the military rather than a civilian guardianship. What do you think?
Wiggs, I know you did not ask my opinion but I will give it anyway. Most, if not all, Army officers felt that the Office of Indian Affairs should fall under Army jurisdiction. That had been a battle since 1866 and at least two times, possibly three, it nearly came to be but events out West stopped it from happening.
The first event that I know of which knocked the plan off the "skids" was Hancock's Expedition and subsequent burning of the village. The second event time that I am sure of was the attack, "massacre", of the Blackfoot village in Montana by Capt. ?. I will have to look up his name but it was almost a done deal until that happened. As a matter of fact, I think that attack led directly to Grant's "Quaker" policy being instituted as a compromise.
The third event, which I am unsure of, may have been Sand Creek. For some reason I seem to recall that there were talks about putting the OIA under the Army but that it was blasted by that horrific attack by Chivington's men. That may be a false memory so take that one with a large lump of salt.
Merry Christmas,
Billy |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 11 2004 : 8:26:06 PM
|
Warlord, you make a great point," Why would he be talking to the Indians about this?" This is pure speculation on my part but, could he have been immersed in a bout of self-pity and doubt, created by the fast approaching end of his career? Perhaps his conviction that the village would escape, and bring to ruin his efforts to redeem himself in the eyes of the President, would prevent any hopes of receiving a prestigious appoinment. In the political area, the President's favor or dis-favor would mean much.
I guess we will never know, but it's certainly an interesting topic. |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on December 11 2004 8:32:17 PM |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 11 2004 : 8:38:53 PM
|
| Billy, your comments are always welcomed. Your information was very enlightening but, only adds to the egnima of the U.S. being incapable (neither through civilian or military auspices)of treating the Native Americans fairly. |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 15 2004 : 7:45:00 PM
|
"You can not point to one single treaty made with the Indians which has not, at some time or other, been violated by the whites; and you can point to innumerable instances where the Indian has been outrageously swindled by the agents of the government; and the great wonder is, not that we have had so many wars, but that we have had so few."
Colonel John Gibbon, commanding 7th. Infantry. |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - January 13 2005 : 10:05:38 PM
|
"True leadership is rarely the consequence of election, appointment, dictatorship, or inheritance. True leadership is exercised when someone performs a necessary or critical task and accomplishes an objective, thereby setting an example."
Thus was it so with Crazy Horse and for"Oyate Kin" at the Battle of the Little Big Horn. |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - February 19 2005 : 8:23:40 PM
|
Famous last stand, famous last words:
"With eighty men, I can ride through the entire Sioux nation."
Captain William Fetterman-dec. 21, 1866 |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - March 20 2005 : 4:01:49 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous Poster8169
Did you or did you not make all this up?
Falsifying an "Indian perspective" seems especially low to me, but it would delight me to find that you're not the one who actually dished all this crap out in the first place.
R. Larsen
|
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - March 20 2005 : 4:05:16 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous Poster8169
Pretty low, Wiggs. An egregious fraud even by your standards, though I can't say that anybody's surprised.
R. Larsen
|
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Rain In The Face
